Stobart air liquidated- the end of Irish domestic aviation?

Van.Bosch · 12-06-2021 8:46pm

BA city flyer covering Belfast routes from tomorrow and 2 more next week apparentky

ClosedAccountFuzzy · 12-06-2021 9:19pm

Mention of Aer Lingus itself covering some other routes too.

I assume that could be with A320s?

L1011 · 12-06-2021 9:24pm

It'll be with 320s - they haven't got anything else to spin up.

If the old Commuter grades/rates aren't on the existing contracts for pilots and crew, it would be either complicated and not quick (to reinstate same) or exceptionally expensive (to pay mainline) to bring back a Commuter operation - even if there were perfectly suitable aircraft ready to go and crew to hire. Does anyone know the current status there?

ClosedAccountFuzzy · 12-06-2021 9:37pm

Did Stobart own or lease those aircraft?

California Dreamer · 12-06-2021 9:50pm

The only thing I’m curious about is according to airfleets -GEV is operated by EI not STK.

All the 72’s are operated by STK.

FionnK86 · 12-06-2021 9:59pm

California Dreamer wrote: »

The only thing I’m curious about is according to airfleets -GEV is operated by EI not STK.

All the 72’s are operated by STK.

GEV is owned by NAC lessor, on Stobart’s AOC.

Tenger · 12-06-2021 11:56pm

FuzzyThinking wrote: »

Did Stobart own or lease those aircraft?

If memory serves the ATR72s are leased with assistance from EI.
Back in 2014 RE couldn’t cover it themselves so EI stepped in.
Can’t exactly recall if it was EI financing the lease or a joint company leasing them to RE/STK.

L1011 wrote: »

If the old Commuter grades/rates aren't on the existing contracts for pilots and crew, it would be either complicated and not quick (to reinstate same) or exceptionally expensive (to pay mainline) to bring back a Commuter operation - even if there were perfectly suitable aircraft ready to go and crew to hire. Does anyone know the current status there?

EI Commuter was the same pay scales for pilots/crew. Hence why setting up a franchise operation was the logical step.

LXFlyer wrote: »

Tenger I’m getting rather worried about your memory!! We had this conversation below back in March and you thanked my post. ;-)

&#55358;&#56596; There should be a rule about highlighting the inadequacy of Mods.
Old and crap is the new trend!!

Shedite27 · 13-06-2021 12:00am

How did the PSO contract work? Do government subsidises the cost even if there’s only 5 passengers on a winter Tuesday?

I’ve only flown the Kerry route once, in summer time. Fairly full flights. How bad does the capacity get?

California Dreamer · 13-06-2021 12:15am

FionnK86 wrote: »

GEV is owned by NAC lessor, on Stobart’s AOC.

Then why is listed on EI airfleets?

13-06-2021 7:12am

Tenger wrote: »

If memory serves the ATR72s are leased with assistance from EI.
Back in 2014 RE couldn’t cover it themselves so EI stepped in.
Can’t exactly recall if it was EI financing the lease or a joint company leasing them to RE/STK.

A lot happened since then, EI were bought out of the arrangement you mention so no longer on the hook for any associated aircraft liabilities.

It got complicated with the purchase and collapse of Flybe which esken (stobart airs parent company and formerly known as stobart group) had a share in. Their asset company (propius) leases in the planes to stobart air (and previously Flybe), they have several jets in addition to the ATRs. Esken is on the hook for not far off €100m of lease guarantees held by propius, it is one of the reasons they haven’t wound companies up earlier

Esken is on the stock exchange and also owns railway infrastructure, small share in stobart transport and a few airports including Southend.

The frequent changes of company structures is hard to follow and sounds like a law firms dream, you may remember last year the media broke the story that Esken had registered the majority of stobart airs shares in the name of a trust for employees to get around some eu rules but employees knew nothing of this

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/transport-and-tourism/stobart-air-workers-say-they-have-never-seen-details-of-share-ownership-scheme-1.4240378

Sheep Shagger · 13-06-2021 10:08am

Aer Lingus to temporarily operate sone routes starting today.

https://www.rte.ie/news/ireland/2021/0613/1227795-aer-lingus-stobart/

LXFlyer · 13-06-2021 10:12am

Aer Lingus Mainline to operate former EI Regional services on:

Dublin-Edinburgh and Dublin-Manchester
Belfast-Edinburgh, Belfast-Birmingham and Belfast-Manchester

BA Cityflyer to operate former EI Regional services on:
Belfast-Exeter and Belfast-Leeds/Bradford

13-06-2021 10:28am

LXFlyer wrote: »

Aer Lingus Mainline to operate former EI Regional services on:

Dublin-Edinburgh and Dublin-Manchester
Belfast-Edinburgh, Belfast-Birmingham and Belfast-Manchester

BA Cityflyer to operate former EI Regional services on:
Belfast-Exeter and Belfast-Leeds/Bradford

What does that mean in practice? Use any airframe available?

john boye · 13-06-2021 10:30am

EI-GEV appears to be positioning somewhere atm. Heading North but I'm not sure if it's to BHD.

LXFlyer · 13-06-2021 11:16am

Deleted User wrote: »

What does that mean in practice? Use any airframe available?

Well Aer Lingus will presumably use A320 aircraft for the ones they are operating, and BA Cityflyer will use an E170/E190.

This is for the next week at least. What happens in the medium/long term is another issue.

LXFlyer · 13-06-2021 11:34am

john boye wrote: »

EI-GEV appears to be positioning somewhere atm. Heading North but I'm not sure if it's to BHD.

It is currently heading across the North Sea towards Denmark.

Presumably returning to the lessor, NAC (Nordic Aviation Capital).

My guess is that it is heading to Billund.

13-06-2021 11:52am

EI-FSK is en route behind GEV as well heading across North Sea

Tenger · 13-06-2021 12:01pm

Mayo_fan wrote: »

A lot happened since then, EI were bought out of the arrangement you mention so no longer on the hook for any associated aircraft liabilities.
.....
.....

Thanks for the clarification.
I can't claim to follow it all but as you say, the lawyers will love the twisted web of responsibility.

Gooser14 · 13-06-2021 12:23pm

john boye wrote:

EI-GEV appears to be positioning somewhere atm. Heading North but I'm not sure if it's to BHD.

Landed at Billund Airport Denmark.

boardise · 13-06-2021 12:47pm

Tenzor07 wrote: »

Can't see the full article but the headline hits the nail on the head:

increasing-shock-at-the-governments-casual-approach-to-death-of-aviation-industry

Aerlingus cancelling flights out of Ireland, reducing capacity, Ryanair doing the same... Will definitely be the least connected EU country out of the 27 by the end of the Summer.

I presume it doesn't help matters either if the Minister For Transport happens to be someone who is ideologically disposed to reducing aviation activity over the medium/longer term ...
Said Minister doesn't exactly exude dynamism.

theguzman · 13-06-2021 9:13pm

I flew KIR-DUB only within the last fortnight for the first time in 11 years and my first time on the EI Regional ATR, there was four passengers onboard. I think what should happen is the PSO should be awarded to Ryanair but with special conditions attached, to drive connectivity there should be a Universal interline agreement so you check in at Farranfore and your bag will transfer to whoever in Dublin, Etihad, Turkish, AA etc, get rid of the ridiculous ID check for a domestic flight, carryon luggage included for free. A plane leaving Dublin at 9-10pm at night would also be great.

None of this will of course happen because there is neither the will or joined up thinking. Ryanair went KIR-DUB for €9.99 each way back in the old days. 4.5hrs from Tralee to Dublin on a train isn't acceptable in Kerry anymore.

Masala · 13-06-2021 9:46pm

theguzman wrote: »

I flew KIR-DUB only within the last fortnight for the first time in 11 years and my first time on the EI Regional ATR, there was four passengers onboard. I think what should happen is the PSO should be awarded to Ryanair but with special conditions attached, to drive connectivity there should be a Universal interline agreement so you check in at Farranfore and your bag will transfer to whoever in Dublin, Etihad, Turkish, AA etc, get rid of the ridiculous ID check for a domestic flight, carryon luggage included for free. A plane leaving Dublin at 9-10pm at night would also be great.

None of this will of course happen because there is neither the will or joined up thinking. Ryanair went KIR-DUB for €9.99 each way back in the old days. 4.5hrs from Tralee to Dublin on a train isn't acceptable in Kerry anymore.

...... AND they only lasted 6 months on the route when the won the PSO the last time.

Walked away when they realised that they hadn't a clue about running a PSO contract and the obligations it brings. And they left Kerry Airport high and dry with NO Dublin service for over a year....

Irish Steve · 13-06-2021 9:49pm

At the risk of upsetting a few people, I will just mention in passing that the reputation of Isle of Man owned airlines operating in Ireland is not exactly stellar, and the intended sale of Stobart was to an Isle of Man based company.

I suspect that both the IAA and Aer Lingus may have had strong opinions on such a transfer, even allowing for the absence of any issues with Stobart and the predecessor owners.

Aer Lingus had already indicated that their preferred bidder going forward for the regional operation was not Stobart, so clearly, there were some issues in the background that have not made their way into the public domain as yet. As to which way this will now pan out, that's anybody's guess, and i for one am not offering one at this stage.

Larbre34 · 13-06-2021 10:23pm

You speak facts. I don't think that observation will upset too many.

14-06-2021 8:14am

Irish Steve wrote: »

At the risk of upsetting a few people, I will just mention in passing that the reputation of Isle of Man owned airlines operating in Ireland is not exactly stellar, and the intended sale of Stobart was to an Isle of Man based company.

I suspect that both the IAA and Aer Lingus may have had strong opinions on such a transfer, even allowing for the absence of any issues with Stobart and the predecessor owners.

Aer Lingus had already indicated that their preferred bidder going forward for the regional operation was not Stobart, so clearly, there were some issues in the background that have not made their way into the public domain as yet. As to which way this will now pan out, that's anybody's guess, and i for one am not offering one at this stage.

Eddie Stobart, the UK logistics and haulage group, is to cut its profit from last year by about £2m after its new finance boss found problems in its accounting.

https://www.ft.com/content/6cd91d2a-a212-11e9-974c-ad1c6ab5efd1

"Accounting problems"

California Dreamer · 14-06-2021 8:17am

Deleted User wrote: »

https://www.ft.com/content/6cd91d2a-a212-11e9-974c-ad1c6ab5efd1

"Accounting problems"

2 entirely different companies

Storm 10 · 14-06-2021 9:59am

Whatever about Donegal and the PSO Kerry certainly does not need those flights they have a very good rail link from Tralee and Killarney to Dublin so its not as if they are cut off like Donegal which has no rail links. When Leo cut support for Galway Airport he used the Rail links as a reason why flights were not needed.

LiamaDelta · 14-06-2021 10:54am

Storm 10 wrote: »

Whatever about Donegal and the PSO Kerry certainly does not need those flights they have a very good rail link from Tralee and Killarney to Dublin so its not as if they are cut off like Donegal which has no rail links. When Leo cut support for Galway Airport he used the Rail links as a reason why flights were not needed.

The motorway was the main reason, the railway has always been there albeit with some improvements more recently. Being able to get a bus from Dublin to Galway in 2.5 hours made the air route unnecessary. Noel Dempsey cut the routes at the time, not Leo.
Kerry and Donegal are not connected by motorway so still retained the PSO. The flight still offers good advantage over the rail link which takes nearly 4 hours.

The J Stands for Jay · 14-06-2021 4:00pm

LiamaDelta wrote: »

Kerry and Donegal are not connected by motorway so still retained the PSO. The flight still offers good advantage over the rail link which takes nearly 4 hours.

There's a hell of a lot more motorway on the route from Dublin to Kerry than to Donegal.

Jack1985 · 14-06-2021 5:34pm

Emerald signalling to EI they may be in a position to operate EIR from Q3.

California Dreamer · 14-06-2021 5:44pm

Jack1985 wrote: »

Emerald signalling to EI they may be in a position to operate EIR from Q3.

Source?

Jack1985 · 14-06-2021 5:51pm

California Dreamer wrote: »

Source?

Hang on I'll give you their number. :pac:

California Dreamer · 14-06-2021 5:55pm

Jack1985 wrote: »

Hang on I'll give you their number. :pac:

Yeh cheers for that. So we are just suppose to take your word for it without providing any back up to that claim. 480 people looking for jobs today, be nice if they didnt have to listen or read chinese whispers!

Deatr · 14-06-2021 5:59pm

Jack1985 wrote: »

Emerald signalling to EI they may be in a position to operate EIR from Q3.

Be great for the guys from STK if they were able to get going earlier than planned.

cson · 14-06-2021 7:32pm

LiamaDelta wrote: »

The motorway was the main reason, the railway has always been there albeit with some improvements more recently. Being able to get a bus from Dublin to Galway in 2.5 hours made the air route unnecessary. Noel Dempsey cut the routes at the time, not Leo.
Kerry and Donegal are not connected by motorway so still retained the PSO. The flight still offers good advantage over the rail link which takes nearly 4 hours.

Plus Carnmore isn't exactly convenient to get into the City from either!

embraer170 · 14-06-2021 9:02pm

Masala wrote: »

...... AND they only lasted 6 months on the route when the won the PSO the last time.

Walked away when they realised that they hadn't a clue about running a PSO contract and the obligations it brings. And they left Kerry Airport high and dry with NO Dublin service for over a year....

Are you sure it was over a year? I don't remember much of how long it took but that really surprises me.

basill · 14-06-2021 9:19pm

California Dreamer wrote: »

Yeh cheers for that. So we are just suppose to take your word for it without providing any back up to that claim. 480 people looking for jobs today, be nice if they didnt have to listen or read chinese whispers!

Has Emerald given an undertaking to transfer across some or all of the Stobart staff?

Jack1985 · 14-06-2021 11:44pm

California Dreamer wrote: »

Yeh cheers for that. So we are just suppose to take your word for it without providing any back up to that claim. 480 people looking for jobs today, be nice if they didnt have to listen or read chinese whispers!

As above I'm not aware Emerald are guaranteeing any such opportunity’s, one would hope skilled professionals suited to the role will be selected. There are a lot of people in the market at this time.

RTÉ Now also referring to the news from Emerald here; https://www.rte.ie/news/business/2021/0614/1227952-troubled-aviation-sector/

FYI, I don't come on here to post fairy stories, so I'm not sure what the attitude is all about in that post.

Tenger · 14-06-2021 11:50pm

Deatr wrote: »

Be great for the guys from STK if they were able to get going earlier than planned.

basill wrote: »

Has Emerald given an undertaking to transfer across some or all of the Stobart staff?

While a lifeline to the 480 Stobart staff would be a positive thing there is the risk/fear that a predatory interloper could take advantage and impose onerous conditions on staff still reeling from the shock.

Good for the customer in the immediate term. But no great longterm for anyone.

L1011 · 14-06-2021 11:58pm

California Dreamer wrote: »

Yeh cheers for that. So we are just suppose to take your word for it without providing any back up to that claim. 480 people looking for jobs today, be nice if they didnt have to listen or read chinese whispers!

I don't think people are using this forum as a jobs board.

Deatr · 15-06-2021 7:30am

Tenger wrote: »

While a lifeline to the 480 Stobart staff would be a positive thing there is the risk/fear that a predatory interloper could take advantage and impose onerous conditions on staff still reeling from the shock.

Good for the customer in the immediate term. But no great longterm for anyone.

100% correct. From what I understand and I hope I’m wrong the T’s & C’s that were going to be offered to staff next year were to be quite lower than what was on offer in STK. I can only imagine what they will be now.

California Dreamer · 15-06-2021 7:37am

Jack1985 wrote: »

As above I'm not aware Emerald are guaranteeing any such opportunity’s, one would hope skilled professionals suited to the role will be selected. There are a lot of people in the market at this time.

RTÉ Now also referring to the news from Emerald here; https://www.rte.ie/news/business/2021/0614/1227952-troubled-aviation-sector/

FYI, I don't come on here to post fairy stories, so I'm not sure what the attitude is all about in that post.

I never said that Emerald were guaranteeing any jobs to anyone but if you look at the current make up of Emerald it does have former Stobart people so it would stand to reason that if you want a ready workforce who are short ops, atr experienced you look at the former employees and possible friends who recently lost their jobs.

All I did was ask you to provide a source and you went on the defence.

California Dreamer · 15-06-2021 7:42am

L1011 wrote: »

I don't think people are using this forum as a jobs board.

In the absence of any concrete information people will look and dissect any rumours/news/whispers that they can.

15-06-2021 8:40am

Well, the usual “Scrap the PSO” article has emerged. Surprised it took this long.

https://www.independent.ie/business/irish/regional-woes-are-flights-to-kerry-and-donegal-really-worth-7m-a-year-40539465.html

..But with the subvention costing €7m a year and the two routes having carried virtually no passengers during the pandemic, the decision to quickly find a replacement operator smacks of political opportunism rather than any sensible use of public funds to maintain regional connectivity.

cml387 · 15-06-2021 9:22am

Are this "Emerald" any relation to the old IOM based Emerald? Used to fly HS748's out of Ronaldsway?

Stovepipe · 15-06-2021 10:13am

LiamaDelta wrote: »

The motorway was the main reason, the railway has always been there albeit with some improvements more recently. Being able to get a bus from Dublin to Galway in 2.5 hours made the air route unnecessary. Noel Dempsey cut the routes at the time, not Leo.
Kerry and Donegal are not connected by motorway so still retained the PSO. The flight still offers good advantage over the rail link which takes nearly 4 hours.

...and it wasn't helped by the population of Galway staying away in droves. The airport couldn't accept anything but turboprops and small jets and the public wanted Ryanair 737s but they couldn't use it,it had no ILS approach so if the weather was bad, aircraft had to divert to Knock and the motorway killed it. Carrickfin in Donegal is in the same boat,because it is in the wrong location and Donegal people tend to use Derry or Enniskillen to fly out of. Apart from that, the Stobart staff are wary of Emerald because they know that Ts and Cs will be worse than Stobart ever were. Sad as it is to say, a lot of those staff will leave aviation for good.

mr.anonymous · 15-06-2021 10:42am

cml387 wrote: »

Are this "Emerald" any relation to the old IOM based Emerald? Used to fly HS748's out of Ronaldsway?

Not related.
Emerald were set up by the owner of Dublin Aerospace, who used to run Aer Lingus Commuter in the 90s when Willie Walsh was in EI. Years later Walsh was head of IAG and one of his airlines was looking for a partner, so Conor McCarthy stepped in.

Likely that Emerald will cherry pick the best of the Stobart crew and hire them on lower pay, T&Cs etc. They won't have any leverage until industry is recovering.

Tenger · 15-06-2021 11:17am

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Well, the usual “Scrap the PSO” article has emerged. Surprised it took this long.

https://www.independent.ie/business/irish/regional-woes-are-flights-to-kerry-and-donegal-really-worth-7m-a-year-40539465.html

€7 million a year versus building a modern motorway to fully connect Dublin and Kerry/Donegal. (obviously we have motorway part of the route)

Tenger · 15-06-2021 11:19am

California Dreamer wrote: »

In the absence of any concrete information people will look and dissect any rumours/news/whispers that they can.

I see your point. But it's not as if its a new member trying to gain reputation.
Jack1985 has been pretty reliable for info in the past.*
Obviously no info is 100% until we see a press release.

*(Going so far as to point out a mistake by a mod. We really should create a rule to stop that behaviour.........)

California Dreamer · 15-06-2021 11:39am

Tenger wrote: »

I see your point. But it's not as if its a new member trying to gain reputation.
Jack1985 has been pretty reliable for info in the past.*
Obviously no info is 100% until we see a press release.

*(Going so far as to point out a mistake by a mod. We really should create a rule to stop that behaviour.........)

Very true, Jacks information in the past has been quite good and accurate.

Stobart air liquidated- the end of Irish domestic aviation?

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