Stobart air liquidated- the end of Irish domestic aviation?

With Stobart Air seemingly liquidated this morning, it looks like the last of the PSO flights are grounded. I wonder what this will do for the viability of CFN and KIR?

AnRothar

Not a lot in the grand scheme of things.

If they have gone bust the Dept of Transport will have to readvertise the contract and get a replacement.

In this scenario of would be interesting to see what it will cost to get the cover at short notice.

The J Stands for Jay

[Deleted User] wrote: »

With Stobart Air seemingly liquidated this morning, it looks like the last of the PSO flights are grounded. I wonder what this will do for the viability of CFN and KIR?

Aren't CFN and KIR kept open by PSO routes to Dublin? If the government can find another airline to take on the contracts, it shouldn't change things.

California Dreamer

Short term EI main could if they wanted to do KIR but an A320 can’t land at CFN.

I would expect someone like Eastern, Logan or even Cityjet to take over the PSO on a wet lease interim.

neutrino

Air Corps Casas?

Deatr

I doubt CityJet would take on the CFN PSO, given that the CRJ wouldn't get out of there and given how cost conscious they are at the moment they wouldn't wet lease and aircraft in to do it. So it'll probably be Loganir or one of the others.

California Dreamer

Deatr wrote: »

I doubt CityJet would take on the CFN PSO, given that the CRJ wouldn't get out of there and given how cost conscious they are at the moment they wouldn't wet lease and aircraft in to do it. So it'll probably be Loganir or one of the others.

Good to know. I don’t know the CRJ limitations and the CFN runway length.

sparrowcar

neutrino wrote: »

Air Corps Casas?

Probably a cheaper option for the government/tax payer in fairness considering how quiet aviation is.

mr.anonymous

neutrino wrote: »

Air Corps Casas?

Thought they only had a few seats because of the fishery patrol equipment?

Masala

The govt has committed to a PSO to Donegal and Kerry due to Regionality and access to the capital.

So it’s a case of getting advertising and getting another airline in. It’s a 4 year contract and is probably lucrative enough for the airline as it’s subsidised etc by govt.

So ... could be just a timing thing and we could see PSO back in 6 months.

Irish Government effectively ban air travel and all reasons to travel. Airline goes bust. Coincidence. I wish the staff the best for the future.

Storm 10

neutrino wrote: »

Air Corps Casas?

Not a hope it's kitted out for the job it does one side is all communications and radar equipment only crew seats in it for crew would never happen.

Larbre34

Can't Aer Lingus just fulfil the domestic schedule from its own resources using 320s for the time being? Lord knows they have the capacity.

California Dreamer

Loganair ran PSO routes previously so could easily pick up the short term slack ahead of it being re-advertised.

Phen2206

Larbre34 wrote: »

Can't Aer Lingus just fulfil the domestic schedule from its own resources using 320s for the time being? Lord knows they have the capacity.

They could potentially with KIR but not with CFN because an A320 is too big for the runway at CFN. In either case it would cost a lot more to operate the flight than not to operate because an A320 is so big compared to Stobart's ATRs. It would all depend on whether the PSO responsibility now falls to main Aer Lingus or not - I'm not sure how the legality of that works. If Aer Lingus can just wait until a new operator is appointed, or just abandon domestic aviation altogether, then they will.

donkey balls

California Dreamer wrote: »

Loganair ran PSO routes previously so could easily pick up the short term slack ahead of it being re-advertised.

They used a Saab on that route and pax numbers seemed to be good, On another note I was reading about Stobart on the Journal and the amount of people posting crap like it's a UK owned PLC etc and f**k them etc, If only they knew of the Stobart HQ in Santry employing Irish staff or what about the FBO like ground handling catering refueling etc.
I am convinced that tbe average Joe soap hasn't a clue about the amount of ancillary jobs aviation employs throughout the island of Ireland north and south.

Sheep Shagger

Is this true about Stobart being sold for £2 to a 26 year old who runs a block chain incubator in the IOM ?

https://www.standard.co.uk/business/transport-logistics/stobart-air-sold-aviation-pandemic-flybe-b930702.html?__twitter_impression=true

L1011

It was to be, his funding didn't come through so the sale collapsed

MAULBROOK

Now I might have dreamt this up after a bad pint but didn't Brendan O'Carroll yes that one, once try and setup a regional airline.
It was like a bus route for the air ie get on in Dublin to cork but the plane would land a small regional airports on the way to pickup or drop off passengers as it went.
Again I could be totally wrong.

crushproof

donkey balls wrote: »

I am convinced that tbe average Joe soap hasn't a clue about the amount of ancillary jobs aviation employs throughout the island of Ireland north and south.

The average Joe doesn't have a clue about most things. Read the headline on a clickbait website like the Journal and think that's enough to make their opinion heard.

Difficult day for all involved and interesting to see how the PSOs pan out

Masala

Sheep Shagger wrote: »

Is this true about Stobart being sold for £2 to a 26 year old who runs a block chain incubator in the IOM ?

https://www.standard.co.uk/business/transport-logistics/stobart-air-sold-aviation-pandemic-flybe-b930702.html?__twitter_impression=true

That was a nominal amount….. he had also to clear the Debts and make Cash available. So his total input was over €9m iirc

Masala

MAULBROOK wrote: »

Now I might have dreamt this up after a bad pint but didn't Brendan O'Carroll yes that one, once try and setup a regional airline.
It was like a bus route for the air ie get on in Dublin to cork but the plane would land a small regional airports on the way to pickup or drop off passengers as it went.
Again I could be totally wrong.

Ya he got airtime on the Late Late show on same but he only had back of packet of fags figures on same. He thought he could copy O’Leary. He hadn’t heard of the old maxim ‘ How do you become a millionaire in Aviation?….. start out by being a Billionaire’. He then realised that there is more profit copying Simpsons jokes.

trellheim

Sorry for all those whose jobs were lost here.

kevinandrew

Larbre34 wrote: »

Can't Aer Lingus just fulfil the domestic schedule from its own resources using 320s for the time being? Lord knows they have the capacity.

I’m not entirely convinced they do have the capacity. Most of the short haul fleet is in long term storage, waking up a fleet of aircraft for what will be a very marginal operation just isn’t worth it. The limited number of A320s that are operational will be doing the basics on summer hot spots.

They’d be better focused on trying to maintain the Scottish and North of England frequencies they’ve now lost.

Jack1985

Aer Lingus hopes to announce an alternative operator by tomorrow. Company was aware the of potential for collapse in STK for some time.

Tenger

kevinandrew wrote: »

I’m not entirely convinced they do have the capacity. Most of the short haul fleet is in long term storage, waking up a fleet of aircraft for what will be a very marginal operation just isn’t worth it. The limited number of A320s that are operational will be doing the basics on summer hot spots.

They’d be better focused on trying to maintain the Scottish and North of England frequencies they’ve now lost.

I didn't think the UK flights were even operating. Thought it was only 2-3 PSO departures from Dublin each day.

Jack1985

Tenger wrote: »

I didn't think the UK flights were even operating. Thought it was only 2-3 PSO departures from Dublin each day.

DUB-EDI
DUB-GLA
DUB-MAN (was to resume this Sat; weekly)

Big loss for connectivity vital for EI when TAs resume, hoping for the best for their staff.

Tenger

Hasn't DUB-MAN been on an A320 over the last year?

Jack1985

Tenger wrote: »

Hasn't DUB-MAN been on an A320 over the last year?

It has, EIR were to begin re-supplementing the route on a weekly basis as referred to. These were the only ROI-UK routes operated.

Calahonda52

The bigger issue here is IAG making Manchester a hub for the USA, plus the closure of the EI base in Shannon so loss of connectivity to the West Coast of USA will be another nail in the FDI coffin, along side the tax and remote working nails out lined by the G7 and Facebook respectively.

Loss of c 100,000 FDI jobs in the medium term plus the knock on effect will burn a big hole in the public finances.

Tenger

Calahonda52 wrote: »

The bigger issue here is IAG making Manchester a hub for the USA, plus the closure of the EI base in Shannon so loss of connectivity to the West Coast of USA will be another nail in the FDI coffin, along side the tax and remote working nails out lined by the G7 and Facebook respectively.

Loss of c 100,000 FDI jobs in the medium term plus the knock on effect will burn a big hole in the public finances.

Aer Lingus will continue to operate flights to/from Shannon. As will US carriers next year.
Aer Lingus will resume its flight from Dublin to SFO and LAX within months.

The PSO routes will be out for tender again.
The connectivity will continue.

The Aer Lingus operation out of MAN will impact its Dublin base, NOT the West.

ClosedAccountFuzzy

I assume they’ll find a new operator, who might even purchase the fleet or take over the Aer Lingus relative aspects of what remained of Stobart.

Would there be any sense in Aer Lingus just operating a regional division itself again?

You could see some of the regional routes eg Cork Manchester (whenever Cork opens again…) being operated by A320s though. Same with Dublin to several bigger English and Scottish cities.

A few of those UK routes are busy enough to be mainline.

Sheep Shagger

FuzzyThinking wrote: »

I assume they’ll find a new operator, who might even purchase the fleet or take over the Aer Lingus relative aspects of what remained of Stobart.

Would there be any sense in Aer Lingus just operating a regional division itself again?

You could see some of the regional routes eg Cork Manchester (whenever Cork opens again…) being operated by A320s though. Same with Dublin to several bigger English and Scottish cities.

A few of those UK routes are busy enough to be mainline.

Are Emerald Airlines not due to take over the AL Regional routes from 2023....that might happen earlier now?

kevinandrew

Jack1985 wrote: »

Aer Lingus hopes to announce an alternative operator by tomorrow. Company was aware the of potential for collapse in STK for some time.

Well that would be a positive development, at least for Aer Lingus in the medium term.

omega man

Sheep Shagger wrote: »

Are Emerald Airlines not due to take over the AL Regional routes from 2023....that might happen earlier now?

Yes, January 2023.

LXFlyer

Tenger wrote: »

I didn't think the UK flights were even operating. Thought it was only 2-3 PSO departures from Dublin each day.

Tenger I’m getting rather worried about your memory!! We had this conversation below back in March and you thanked my post. ;-)

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=116671033&postcount=2736

crushproof

Don't think the DUB-EDI was operating. Had looked at tickets a couple of weeks ago and there was no flights available for the foreseeable future. Even Ryanair are down to one a day in that route

Caranica

crushproof wrote: »

Don't think the DUB-EDI was operating. Had looked at tickets a couple of weeks ago and there was no flights available for the foreseeable future. Even Ryanair are down to one a day in that route

I've booked Ryanair to Edinburgh for next month and there were at least three flights a day

kevinandrew

crushproof wrote: »

Don't think the DUB-EDI was operating. Had looked at tickets a couple of weeks ago and there was no flights available for the foreseeable future. Even Ryanair are down to one a day in that route

It was, albeit at much lower frequencies, it operated on the 11th, 10th and 7th as EI3250 in the mornings and on the 6th as EI3256 in the afternoon.

fawlty682

Ryanair not flying from Derry also. Loganair twice the price will hit the north west too.

LXFlyer

crushproof wrote: »

Don't think the DUB-EDI was operating. Had looked at tickets a couple of weeks ago and there was no flights available for the foreseeable future. Even Ryanair are down to one a day in that route

As above it was not operating every day but it has been operating irregularly since last year.

Tenzor07

Can't see the full article but the headline hits the nail on the head:

increasing-shock-at-the-governments-casual-approach-to-death-of-aviation-industry

Aerlingus cancelling flights out of Ireland, reducing capacity, Ryanair doing the same... Will definitely be the least connected EU country out of the 27 by the end of the Summer.

ClosedAccountFuzzy

I think there’s a remarkably Laissez-faire assumption that the demand is there and the routes will just reopen. It took years and years to build them up, particularly some of the more marginal ones.

I’m rather concerned we could be looking at a long struggle to get back to having strong connectivity, which is one of the major selling points of being based in Ireland.

The Cork Airport idea that you can just close entirely for several months, right as the sector is recovering is very concerning too. While it’s a lull in demand, it’s right as you need to be getting things flowing again.

There seems to be little or no strategy to what we are doing.

Tenzor07

FuzzyThinking wrote: »

There seems to be little or no strategy to what we are doing.

No strategy just open hostility from Tony Holohan since the start of this... A Green Party Transport Minister.. the perfect storm to make Ireland an expensive and difficult outcrop of an Island to get to..

ClosedAccountFuzzy

To be fair to the greens they have actually made fairly concerned statements about Stobart this morning in terms of regional connectivity.

We have shown scant concern though given the significant nature of aviation here. I think it’s largely been driven by making foreign travel almost sinful at a public policy level.

There seems to have been a pile on into following some half-baked version of what Australia and NZ did, rather than working towards maintaining some kind of safe connectivity to Europe in particular.

At the start of the crisis we didn’t do remotely enough to make aviation safe. Things like a proper system of enforced testing at airports could have kept things safer and moving. Instead we did nothing (as did the U.K.) and then a crisis hit and then we kneejerked into a total lockdown of travel. So instead of maybe a modicum of common sense and sane measures we’ve gone from one extreme to the other and the outcome is likely to be rather damaging to connectivity.

As for DAA at Cork, the mind boggles.

newcavanman

No harm, but when did the Greens ever come up with any good ideas on the transport front , apart from reducing the tax on Diesels? and lets face it, they have been trying to undo that ever since

ClosedAccountFuzzy

The diesel scandal was more of a European automotive industry drive to sell diesel, as they had no viable hybrid or other high tech platforms in the early 2000s. So they lobbied like hell and even doctored the emissions results.

The prevailing public policy right across Europe lead to particulate pumping diesels becoming dominant and causing major local air pollution issues.

It just shows the importance of understanding what you’re measuring when it comes to anything in science or economics, as you can very quickly end up with very unintended outcomes.

In this case, I think you’re looking very much at Ireland going into lockstep thinking on travel and trying to compare itself, very inappropriately, with New Zealand.

Jack1985

Jack1985 wrote: »

Aer Lingus hopes to announce an alternative operator by tomorrow. Company was aware the of potential for collapse in STK for some time.

Judging by their reaction I would wonder. They were told last night yet only added a note on their website around 11am this morning, I have a KIR flight booked next Friday and zero communication from them still. Their Twitter feed is a mess full of stranded passengers who can’t get through to agents and website problems

ClosedAccountFuzzy

It was remarkably sudden. I doubt the company’s operations side saw this coming somehow.

mr.anonymous

The sale to Ettyl and funding for it were in the news and reported as in trouble at least a week ago if not the end of May.

https://m.independent.ie/business/irish/stobart-buyer-refers-paperworkissue-to-police-40513388.html

Now that the money isn't there, Stobarts are losing the contract, and the industry is on its knees, they ceased trading.

Emerald is still in the start-up phase, barely have aircraft acquired, no AOC either.

An extra 480 job losses in Irish aviation today.

ClosedAccountFuzzy

Would there be any reason why Aer Lingus wouldn't just re-establish their own regional division and take some of the Stobart fleet?

I can't really see why they couldn't do a City Hopper / HOP! type operation themselves.

It's probably feeding significant numbers of UK passengers into DUB for transatlantic.

I know plenty of people from various parts of the UK who find it easier to fly to the US via DUB than LHR due to connectivity with those routes and also Ryanair being so strong.