Belarus forces Ryanair plane to divert NO GENERAL POLITICS MOD WARNING POST 1

Nijmegen · 24-05-2021 12:12pm

It's pretty (very?) interesting / odd that Ryanair are overflying the country the next day.

A lot of the other traffic are Russian airlines, inc Aeroflot. Doubt they'll ever get escorted to the ground.

Muahahaha · 24-05-2021 1:00pm

Just wondering in that scenario yesterday when a fighter jet pulls alongside the captains side of the cockpit does he have any instrument in the cockpit to tell if there are other fighter jets behind him or overhead, is there a close proximity radar that would show other aircraft on a screen.

PreCocious · 24-05-2021 1:03pm

Muahahaha wrote: »

Just wondering in that scenario yesterday when a fighter jet pulls alongside the captains side of the cockpit does he have any instrument in the cockpit to tell if there are other fighter jets behind him or overhead, is there a close proximity radar that would show other aircraft on a screen.

He uses the wing mirrors.

plodder · 24-05-2021 1:06pm

xper wrote: »

I think we can take it that the non-routine engagement with the Belarus authorities began a long time before the Ryanair aircraft made the 180 degree turn just short of the Lithuanian border. While it was only 3-4 mins flying time from the FIR boundary, it was still at 39,000ft. From that positon, it would have taken nearly as long to get down into Vilnius as Minsk. Flightradar tweeted an image illustrating this flight's vertical profile varied drastically from its previous ones where descent to Vilnius would normally begin a long way back in Belarus airspace. Its reasonable to assume that things probably kicked off shortly after they entered Belrussian airspace - they only has 25 minutes or so to execute their plan. Exactly what kciking off entailed is still unclear. The Belarussians talk about a bomb threat while tere are also reports about the 'agents' an board taking some sort of action though the latter doesnt seem to be widely reported through main news chanenls or authority statements.

True. FR24 shows a flight on May 16 and it seems to start its descent roughly halfway into Belorussian territory. So, I suppose that shows that the engagement started 10-15 minutes before it turned around, or maybe earlier.

Fann Linn · 24-05-2021 1:07pm

Not right at all what happened here. However I hope Coveney and MM gets just as upset the next time a US rendition flight lands at Shannon.

cnocbui · 24-05-2021 1:09pm

Muahahaha wrote: »

Just wondering in that scenario yesterday when a fighter jet pulls alongside the captains side of the cockpit does he have any instrument in the cockpit to tell if there are other fighter jets behind him or overhead, is there a close proximity radar that would show other aircraft on a screen.

I beleive civillian planes mostly rely on other planes having radar transponders turned on, which do show on a display, but military planes wouldn't normally have transponders turned on.

So basically no. Mk. 1 eyeballs in the main cabin would be the primary proximity sensors.

Strumms · 24-05-2021 1:21pm

They would have a system called TCAS ( Traffic Collision Avoidance System )

It’s wont identify the type or origin/callsign of the aircraft

Muahahaha · 24-05-2021 1:32pm

cnocbui wrote: »

I beleive civillian planes mostly rely on other planes having radar transponders turned on, which do show on a display, but military planes wouldn't normally have transponders turned on.

So basically no. Mk. 1 eyeballs in the main cabin would be the primary proximity sensors.

Yeah was wondering about the transponders and if in this scenario the fighter jets would have theirs switched on because they want the pilot to know that he is surrounded by more than one of them.

Would the tail of a modern plane have a rear facing camera the pilot could look at? And are there any external cameras on a plane that give a pilot a visual of safety issues like a wing icing up or landing gear not deploying

grassylawn · 24-05-2021 1:33pm

Fann Linn wrote: »

Not right at all what happened here. However I hope Coveney and MM gets just as upset the next time a US rendition flight lands at Shannon.

That is a non-sequitur. The USA don't hijack Irish aircraft.

Fann Linn · 24-05-2021 1:34pm

grassylawn wrote: »

That is a non-sequitur. The USA don't hijack Irish aircraft.

Agreed. Not hijacking but there have been allegations of kidnapping.

Hoboo · 24-05-2021 1:37pm

bb12 wrote: »

i absolutely believe belarus would have shot down this plane if they had ignored instructions to turn back...then would have conveniently blamed it on a bomb onboard. russia has previous form for this when they shot that airliner down during the crimea conflict. those passengers yesterday had a very lucky escape.

that young man is very much on my mind today. these despotic leaders are doing their best to pull the world back into the era of the cold war. and they've been getting away with it for too long...no wonder there is such a rise around the world in this type of leader; russia, brazil, turkey, hungary...in the grand scheme of things, all of our democracies are at risk if these guys are continued to be let get away with actions such as these and they are going to continue to get more brazen as times goes on

More brazen? That shipped long sailed after the Saudi state murder of Jamal Khashoggi. And the world did nothing.Our democracy isn't at risk because it's nothing more than a fantasy to maintain order.

cailinoBAC · 24-05-2021 1:48pm

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-57180275.amp

grassylawn · 24-05-2021 1:48pm

Hoboo wrote: »

More brazen? That shipped long sailed after the Saudi state murder of Jamal Khashoggi. And the world did nothing.Our democracy isn't at risk because it's nothing more than a fantasy to maintain order.

The moral equivalences are missing the point. It's about violent actions by a state against an Irish airline and an employee of a Polish company.

Irish Steve · 24-05-2021 1:57pm

We have a train wreck on our hands, and cleaning it up is going to take a while. Once I've deleted a shed load of posts that are the result of a (now banned) troll, it will be back. Until then, it's closed so that I can deal with the mess it left behind.

20 minutes later.

OK, so I have just deleted over 60 posts that had become pretty meaningless after the deletion of a very significant number of troill posts from one user, who is now not going to bother us again any time soon.

Apologies to users whos posts have been deleted where they quoted the troll, the thread had become very hard to follow as a result of this, so it needed a dramatic clean up to get is back to making some sort of sense.

xper · 24-05-2021 2:18pm

Strumms wrote: »

They would have a system called TCAS ( Traffic Collision Avoidance System )

It’s wont identify the type or origin/callsign of the aircraft

TCAS only works where both aircraft are fitted with and have activated a compatible transponder. Military aircraft could choose whether to have theirs on or not for good (from their point of view) operational reasons.
In a more benign example, if a fighter jet was intercepting an airliner that had lost radio communications, deactivating TCAS might be a good idea in order to not provoke the airliner's crew into following a mandatory manoeuvre due to a resolution avoidance alert from TCAS as it closed in.

Muahahaha wrote: »

Yeah was wondering about the transponders and if in this scenario the fighter jets would have theirs switched on because they want the pilot to know that he is surrounded by more than one of them.

Would the tail of a modern plane have a rear facing camera the pilot could look at? And are there any external cameras on a plane that give a pilot a visual of safety issues like a wing icing up or landing gear not deploying

Not on a B737-800. (There is a forward-looking enhanced vision option but Ryanair don't have that and would be irrelevant in this scenario).
A380's and some other more recent large models have external cameras primarily to aid with taxi-ing (and, incidentally, for passenger entertainment) but I am not aware of anything that gives a good view rearward or why you would want to (checking for a trailing fighter jet not being a reasonable scenario to cater for). At the end of the day, if a pilot is told by ATC that an intercept has been initiated, it would be incredibly foolhardy and irresponsible to call their bluff. A MIG-29 is well able to shoot down an airliner from beyond visual range.

xper · 24-05-2021 2:21pm

cailinoBAC wrote: »

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-57180275.amp

The passenger statements would seem to rule out that 'agents' on board took any action and that the diversion was entirely provoked by external communications to the cockpit.

igCorcaigh · 24-05-2021 2:26pm

Hmm.

https://twitter.com/Conflicts/status/1396811343584505856?s=19

igCorcaigh · 24-05-2021 2:27pm

igCorcaigh wrote: »

Hmm.

https://twitter.com/Conflicts/status/1396811343584505856?s=19

Seems to be all clear now.

Homelander · 24-05-2021 3:12pm

More of a geography question than anything but have I gone mad and imagined that it was ever pronounced as "Bela-roose-ee-an" rather than "Bella-Russian"?

I've always said the former but hearing it as the latter anywhere I've heard it today. I thought it might be a UK/US thing but hearing some US-based correspondents also saying "Bella-russian" today as well.

stephenjmcd · 24-05-2021 3:38pm

UK Transport Secretary Grant Shapps said he has instructed the Civil Aviation Authority to request airlines avoid Belarusian airspace in order to keep passengers safe and has suspended Belarus’ national airline Belavia’s operating permit

cailinoBAC · 24-05-2021 3:40pm

Belorussia is an older soviet style name. It should be Belarusian not Belorussian but some people take a long time to change. Similar to people talking about The Ukraine rather than Ukraine.

ClosedAccountFuzzy · 24-05-2021 4:14pm

Just saw Thomas Byrne TD on CNN with Becky Anderson. Seems the Irish Government is pushing fairly hard for an EU response.

Cookiemunster · 24-05-2021 4:14pm

Polo2020 wrote: »

And what about Éire and Ireland? is the latter just and older British Empire style name? ))

They're the two official and correct names of the country in each of the recognised languages.

tobefrank321 · 24-05-2021 4:18pm

FuzzyThinking wrote: »

Just saw Thomas Byrne TD on CNN with Becky Anderson. Seems the Irish Government is pushing fairly hard for an EU response.

Not much they can do that hasn't been done already. They could ban Belarus flights but there are ways around that such as flying to Russia and getting on a Russian plane.

The blogger in question will be lucky to come through this alive. Absolutely brutal dictator in Belarus.

Polar101 · 24-05-2021 4:39pm

Belarus official claiming that the flight was diverted, because they received a bomb threat from Hamas.

He said the group demanded that the "European Union renounces its support for Israel in this war" and if it did not fulfill their demands: "The bomb will explode over Vilnius on May 23".

..pretty pathetic material.

https://www.rte.ie/news/world/2021/0524/1223554-belarus-ryanair-flight/

monseiur · 24-05-2021 4:59pm

What happened to the Ryanair flight is a minor incident in the eyes of the ruling mob / dictators in power in certain Eastern Eurpean countries, they'll just have a good belly laugh about it while downing a few Vodkas
A Malaysian plane, enroute from Amsterdam to Kuala Lumpur was shot down in eastern Ukraine 6 or 7 years ago killing all 300 passengers - it didn't exactly start world war 3..............but things may be different now Simon Covney is in power and he may annihilate them with his pea shooter !

ClosedAccountFuzzy · 24-05-2021 5:05pm

Polar101 wrote: »

Belarus official claiming that the flight was diverted, because they received a bomb threat from Hamas.

..pretty pathetic material.

https://www.rte.ie/news/world/2021/0524/1223554-belarus-ryanair-flight/

If they're going to make stuff up, at least make something that seems even vaguely credible.

grassylawn · 24-05-2021 5:11pm

FuzzyThinking wrote: »

If they're going to make stuff up, at least make something that seems even vaguely credible.

It's not about being believed. It's about giving someone an excuse to not respond. Making that excuse unbelievable is a way of posturing as being powerful. They don't want people to believe it. They want people to know what they did.

Hurrache · 24-05-2021 5:12pm

FuzzyThinking wrote: »

Just saw Thomas Byrne TD on CNN with Becky Anderson. Seems the Irish Government is pushing fairly hard for an EU response.

Germany and others too, German officials proposed a ban on their airspace and flights yesterday.

Christy42 · 24-05-2021 5:28pm

Polo2020 wrote: »

Isn't it too complicated to let people know this way?:) Why not to simply say "we did it"?

It is the Russian playbook.

Certainly any airspace ban can be gotten around but it adds costs and complications to all involved which is the main point.

signostic · 24-05-2021 5:31pm

Reports that Latvia has asked the Belorussian ambassador to pack his bags and be gone in 24 hours, all other staff have 48 hours, decisive move by Latvia, does Belorussia have a presence in Ireland?

Inquitus · 24-05-2021 5:32pm

It was an act of air piracy, there should certainly be a tough reaction to this, people should be safe flying and not subject to interception by Mig 29's and arrest in such circumstances, poor Mr Roman Protasevich could face alife in jail or worse off the back of this illegal act.

cailinoBAC · 24-05-2021 5:39pm

signostic wrote: »

Reports that Latvia has asked the Belorussian ambassador to pack his bags and be gone in 24 hours, all other staff have 48 hours, decisive move by Latvia, does Belorussia have a presence in Ireland?

No

Hoboo · 24-05-2021 5:41pm

FuzzyThinking wrote: »

Just saw Thomas Byrne TD on CNN with Becky Anderson. Seems the Irish Government is pushing fairly hard for an EU response.

Knowing Thomas personally, he and they will do SFA. Nothing but hot air and posturing. The Saudis chopped up a journalist in their Turkish embassy not so long ago and nothing happened. The Russians (allegedly) shot down a plane, nothing happened. They'll demand this and that, sanction a few people no one has ever heard or cares about, and that'll be it.

Eod100 · 24-05-2021 5:43pm

Doesn't sound good. https://twitter.com/TadeuszGiczan/status/1396868542654566402?s=19

AndrewJRenko · 24-05-2021 5:50pm

And more on the original incident; https://twitter.com/TadeuszGiczan/status/1396446650718117890

lulublue22 · 24-05-2021 5:52pm

Eod100 wrote: »

Doesn't sound good. https://twitter.com/TadeuszGiczan/status/1396868542654566402?s=19

It’s desperate - I can only imagine what he felt when he realised that the plane had landed in Minsk. For all the discussion and talk about sanctions and response at the heart of it all is a tragic story of a young man and the horror he has / is going through.

grassylawn · 24-05-2021 5:53pm

Polo2020 wrote: »

What exactly? To say "we did it"?

Sure. How does it answer the question - why Belarus wouldn't simply say "we did it" if, according to some thoughts, all their excuses just about showing exactly that: "we did it"?
Why to complicate things?

Because they're not allowed to do it.
Admitting they did it forces a response.
Responding with a lie, however obvious, offers the choice to not respond.

edit:
It's Doublethink. The term was coined by Orwell in 1984. The regime in the book was based on Stalinist Russia.

Calahonda52 · 24-05-2021 5:59pm

Lmkrnr wrote: »

I think this lad won't be involved in any colour revolutions for awhile. They call him a blogger but he's clearly an EU stooge.

In your option, thats all and that matters for nothing

24-05-2021 6:07pm

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

And more on the original incident; https://twitter.com/TadeuszGiczan/status/1396446650718117890

While he may strongly suspect, he nor we "know" that fsb agents did this for a fact.

Muahahaha · 24-05-2021 6:11pm

xper wrote: »

T

Not on a B737-800. (There is a forward-looking enhanced vision option but Ryanair don't have that and would be irrelevant in this scenario).
A380's and some other more recent large models have external cameras primarily to aid with taxi-ing (and, incidentally, for passenger entertainment) but I am not aware of anything that gives a good view rearward or why you would want to (checking for a trailing fighter jet not being a reasonable scenario to cater for). At the end of the day, if a pilot is told by ATC that an intercept has been initiated, it would be incredibly foolhardy and irresponsible to call their bluff. A MIG-29 is well able to shoot down an airliner from beyond visual range.

cheers thanks. Just wondering then when a pilot reverses out of a terminal slot is his only visual reference for turning the plane the curved paint markings on the tarmac? Were the plane to hit something while reversing does the responsibility for that fall on the pilot or on the marshal giving direction?
And when a pilot gets an intercept notice from ATC what is the protocol? Would there be rules from each airline that they always comply or is it the captains decision alone what to do in that moment.

And what might be the outcome of all this. Just looking at the routes by the state owned airline Belavia about half their routes use EU airspace. Could the EU react by refusing them access to their airspace as a sanction?

pcardin · 24-05-2021 6:15pm

signostic wrote: »

Reports that Latvia has asked the Belorussian ambassador to pack his bags and be gone in 24 hours, all other staff have 48 hours, decisive move by Latvia, does Belorussia have a presence in Ireland?

Latvia is just answering with the same. It was Belorus first this morning who asked an ambassador of Latvia and all employees of Embassy of Latvia in Minsk to leave within 24 hrs. If I understand these political comedies correctly, asking one countries ambassador to leave is the same as declaring a war against that country?

24-05-2021 6:23pm

Muahahaha wrote: »

cheers thanks. Just wondering then when a pilot reverses out of a terminal slot is his only visual reference for turning the plane the curved paint markings on the tarmac? Were the plane to hit something while reversing does the responsibility for that fall on the pilot or on the marshal giving direction?
And when a pilot gets an intercept notice from ATC what is the protocol? Would there be rules from each airline that they always comply or is it the captains decision alone what to do in that moment.

And what might be the outcome of all this. Just looking at the routes by the state owned airline Belavia about half their routes use EU airspace. Could the EU react by refusing them access to their airspace as a sanction?

I wouldnt like to be behind a moving plane with engines on

Nijmegen · 24-05-2021 6:31pm

Eod100 wrote: »

Doesn't sound good. https://twitter.com/TadeuszGiczan/status/1396868542654566402?s=19

Almost predictable.

AndyBoBandy · 24-05-2021 6:32pm

Muahahaha wrote: »

cheers thanks. Just wondering then when a pilot reverses out of a terminal slot is his only visual reference for turning the plane the curved paint markings on the tarmac?

Planes don’t reverse out, they are ‘pushed back’ by tugs., and the pilot has no control of this procedure other than to release the parking brake to allow the procedure to begin.

ClosedAccountFuzzy · 24-05-2021 6:39pm

signostic wrote: »

Reports that Latvia has asked the Belorussian ambassador to pack his bags and be gone in 24 hours, all other staff have 48 hours, decisive move by Latvia, does Belorussia have a presence in Ireland?

No. It seems they're accredited, but through their embassy in London and an Honorary Consul.

JohnC. · 24-05-2021 6:56pm

Niner leprauchan wrote: »

While he may strongly suspect, he nor we "know" that fsb agents did this for a fact.

KGB. FSB are Russian.

grassylawn · 24-05-2021 6:58pm

Polo2020 wrote: »

You mean it is not going to be a response, having what they say? Or they didn't know that it is going to be? Sure they knew.
If EU grounds Bolivian plane in Austria - it's not going to be a response. Or when NSA spies on Merkel's phone - it's not going to be any response either.
But if Belarus did something bad - undoubtfully it is going to be a response. Belarusian president can be a dictator but his is not a stupid dictator. He knew exactly what he is doing and what to expect.

Yeah, good book. Stalinist Russia is long time dead. And the book is as alive, as ever. Wondering why..

Bolivia were not in a position to do anything beyond look for an apology and nobody would have expected anything beyond that of them.
Spying is not comparable to forcibly grounding a plane to abduct someone.

Tenger · 24-05-2021 7:02pm

JohnC. wrote: »

KGB. FSB are Russian.

FSB in Russia are the successors of the old Soviet KGB.
KGB translates as “committee for state security”

Both Belarus and Republic of South Ossetia have their own “committee for state security”, both of which use the old title. So in this incident references to “KGB” probably mean the Belarusian agency.

faoiarvok · 24-05-2021 7:09pm

zom wrote: »

In 2013, several European countries blocked Evo Morales’s Bolivian state plane from using their airspace because of suspicions that Edward Snowden, who was on the plane and also faced death penalty. But it is not a crime when we do it...;)

It was despicable and shameless bullying on behalf of the US, but I don’t think it was a crime anyway.

Military aircraft are not covered by the treaties that guarantee overflight rights, and require diplomatic clearance that can be refused for whatever reason. The aircraft was not intercepted, they found their route cut off and had to change plans. They were later granted the diplomatic clearance to complete the journey, and received apologies from some of the countries.

I do think it was disgusting, but it was not the same as intercepting a civil airliner with a fighter jet after inventing a security threat, and forcing it to divert so a critic of a dictator could be arrested, in breach of international treaties to which Belarus is a signatory.

Belarus forces Ryanair plane to divert *NO GENERAL POLITICS* *MOD WARNING POST 1*

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Belarus forces Ryanair plane to divert NO GENERAL POLITICS MOD WARNING POST 1