National Hurling League 2021 discussion

13-05-2021 4:09pm

formerlyET wrote: »

I'd agree with that. But, something has to be tried.

Diving has to be penalised in a similar way.

Perhaps a ref is needed for both halves of the field. I know there might be inconsistencies between. But some refs really struggle to keep up with the pace of the game and who could blame them.

I'm not sure something has to be tried. the game hasn't been this even since the 90's. There's 5 or 6 sides in it who have decent chances of winning the All Ireland this year.

If you take physicality out of hurling, as your proposal will inevitably lead to, imo, you'll never be able to put it back in.

formerlyET · 13-05-2021 4:25pm

Deleted User wrote: »

I'm not sure something has to be tried. the game hasn't been this even since the 90's. There's 5 or 6 sides in it who have decent chances of winning the All Ireland this year.

If you take physicality out of hurling, as your proposal will inevitably lead to, imo, you'll never be able to put it back in.

Nobody is saying anything about taking the physicality out of hurling?

There's no physicality to the fouling we're talking about?

You've completely misunderstood the point.

What has fouling got to do with physicality?

Most of these fouls in the opposition half are pulling of the arm, dragging back, grabbing the hurl - no physicality to it. This is the kind of persistent fouling that avoids, in the opposition half back line that avoids cards as Sean Moran outlined.

pajoguy · 13-05-2021 4:38pm

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I'm not sure something has to be tried. the game hasn't been this even since the 90's. There's 5 or 6 sides in it who have decent chances of winning the All Ireland this year.

If you take physicality out of hurling, as your proposal will inevitably lead to, imo, you'll never be able to put it back in.

I thinks thats it in a nutshell.... the game is too even for some now. They dont want all these contenders like limerick waterford galway wexford and antrim disrupting the dominance of the big 3... ok antrim was tongue in cheek....

Grats · 13-05-2021 4:50pm

formerlyET wrote: »

I didn't say any of that. Are you alright?

I already took issue with that poster with regards to not reading, or not clearly following, posts.

breezy1985 · 13-05-2021 5:03pm

Grats wrote: »

I already took issue with that poster with regards to not reading, or not clearly following, posts.

Ye are both using language that indicates that hurling needs fixing or that the problems are new or recently developed.

That would clearly seem to me that ye thing hurling was once amazing but now has problems suddenly

formerlyET · 13-05-2021 5:12pm

Grats wrote: »

I already took issue with that poster with regards to not reading, or not clearly following, posts.

Apparently, any discussion on hurling and it's flow, and strategic fouling means that people who are season ticket holders for club and inter county want no physicality in hurling, want diving in hurling, don't want hurling to be a competition, and think Limerick are the dirtiest team ever.
Madness.
You couldn't make it up?:pac:

breezy1985 · 13-05-2021 5:27pm

formerlyET wrote: »

Apparently, any discussion on hurling and it's flow, and strategic fouling means that people who are season ticket holders for club and inter county want no physicality in hurling, want diving in hurling, don't want hurling to be a competition, and think Limerick are the dirtiest team ever.
Madness.
You couldn't make it up?:pac:

Season ticket holder wow aren't you the true gael. Do you really think having a season ticket makes your false bitter opinion on Limerick valid.

Are you also trying to claim now that you didn't say Limerick foul more than any other team ever

formerlyET · 13-05-2021 5:33pm

breezy1985 wrote: »

Season ticket holder wow aren't you the true gael. Do you really think having a season ticket makes your false bitter opinion on Limerick valid.

Are you also trying to claim now that you didn't say Limerick foul more than any other team ever

I quoted a researched article by an Irish Times Sports journalist as evidence.

A true gael? :pac:

breezy1985 · 13-05-2021 5:42pm

formerlyET wrote: »

I quoted a researched article by an Irish Times Sports journalist as evidence.

A true gael? :pac:

The article says Limerick had between 3 to 6 more fouls in 2020 and would probably have more than Waterford. He also says teams normally set out to have a low foul count but Limerick don't. He cannot know this and is guessing as to what Kiely and other managers are telling their teams behind closed doors

Hardly evidence that they foul more than any team ever as you claim.

But what would I know I don't have a season ticket

formerlyET · 13-05-2021 5:45pm

breezy1985 wrote: »

The article says Limerick had between 3 to 6 more fouls in 2020 and would probably have more than Waterford. He also says teams normally set out to have a low foul count but Limerick don't. He cannot know this and is guessing as to what Kiely and other managers are telling their teams behind closed doors

Hardly evidence that they foul more than any team ever as you claim.

But what would I know I don't have a season ticket

I actually feel sorry for you!

Keep 'em them posts coming, boss.

breezy1985 · 13-05-2021 5:51pm

formerlyET wrote: »

I actually feel sorry for you! Keep 'em them posts coming, boss.

Zero points to make again

formerlyET · 13-05-2021 5:54pm

breezy1985 wrote: »

Zero points to make again

You said it.

Well done. You've successfully made zero points. Unlike Limerick.

Is there any mods on this thing?
Aren't we supposed to make an argument, back it up with evidence? And not attack the poster? Isn't that the gist?

Billy Ocean · 13-05-2021 6:38pm

Couple of interesting points from Michael Verney in his weekend preview with Shane Stapleton, this terrible disadvantage rule is not set in stone for championship, a management committee of something of the type has to power to change this if required, 1A and 1B likely to redrawn after this year so hopefully the imbalance of 1 Munster and 1 Leinster championship dominated division can be eradicated.

breezy1985 · 13-05-2021 6:46pm

Billy Ocean wrote: »

Couple of interesting points from Michael Verney in his weekend preview with Shane Stapleton, this terrible disadvantage rule is not set in stone for championship, a management committee of something of the type has to power to change this if required, 1A and 1B likely to redrawn after this year so hopefully the imbalance of 1 Munster and 1 Leinster championship dominated division can be eradicated.

I'm not a fan of having an almost identical league and championship structure but seeing as it's here for now they should seed it so it's split evenly with no more than 3 Munster per group

Rosita · 13-05-2021 7:34pm

breezy1985 wrote: »

This fella is blinded by some fantasy about amazing skillful honest pure hurling from back in the good old days.

/QUOTE]

You are the only one who keeping mentioning "the old days" or "the good old days". Perhaps you are trying to avoid too much emphasis on the present day which is your own business but why accuse everyone else of doing what you're at yourself? (question is rhetorical)

supernova5 · 13-05-2021 7:36pm

Has anyone purchased the Domestic Pass in GAAGO?

I haven't used GAAGO before

65 games for 25 euro, that's a savings of 300 euro over purchasing individual games

Is this too good to be true?

Rosita · 13-05-2021 7:37pm

[QUOTE=cantwbr1;117152145

WRT persistent/cynical fouling, I don’t think Lk are any worse than any other team but they are analysed more.
Hopefully the new rules will make cynical fouling less attractive without removing the physicality[/QUOTE]

The Irish Times article disproves this surely?

dobman88 · 13-05-2021 7:49pm

supernova5 wrote: »

Has anyone purchased the Domestic Pass in GAAGO?

I haven't used GAAGO before

65 games for 25 euro, that's a savings of 300 euro over purchasing individual games

Is this too good to be true?

Not too good to be true. That's the deal.

Every game in hurling and football thats not on telly will be available to watch live. Fantastic value and I'm really considering just getting it for the sake of it in case I watch more games than I've got planned

supernova5 · 13-05-2021 8:07pm

dobman88 wrote: »

Not too good to be true. That's the deal.

Every game in hurling and football thats not on telly will be available to watch live. Fantastic value and I'm really considering just getting it for the sake of it in case I watch more games than I've got planned

Hmm, interesting... that's good to know, just might do the same myself

13-05-2021 8:24pm

formerlyET wrote: »

Nobody is saying anything about taking the physicality out of hurling?

There's no physicality to the fouling we're talking about?

You've completely misunderstood the point.

What has fouling got to do with physicality?

Most of these fouls in the opposition half are pulling of the arm, dragging back, grabbing the hurl - no physicality to it. This is the kind of persistent fouling that avoids, in the opposition half back line that avoids cards as Sean Moran outlined.

What you are suggesting is to favour the man in possession over the tackler, that is always going to eliminate physicality, whether you start off from there or not, imo, as it's easier for the man in possession to dive on contact etc. As it is, we have the advantage rule being re-written to ensure a more stop/start game.

I don't see either change as necessarily good for the game.

Billy Ocean · 13-05-2021 8:36pm

supernova5 wrote: »

Hmm, interesting... that's good to know, just might do the same myself

got it too, for example this weekend you've access to every football game not on Eir or TG4 and every division 1 hurling game in that bracket too. Obviously alot of them clash, doesn't include division 2A downwards for the hurling.

Billy Ocean · 13-05-2021 8:40pm

breezy1985 wrote: »

I'm not a fan of having an almost identical league and championship structure but seeing as it's here for now they should seed it so it's split evenly with no more than 3 Munster per group

Even if they moved Kilkenny or Wexford from 1B to 1A and a Munster team from 1A to 1B that would even improve it alot.

formerlyET · 13-05-2021 9:12pm

Deleted User wrote: »

What you are suggesting is to favour the man in possession over the tackler, that is always going to eliminate physicality, whether you start off from there or not, imo, as it's easier for the man in possession to dive on contact etc. As it is, we have the advantage rule being re-written to ensure a more stop/start game.

I don't see either change as necessarily good for the game.

I'm not suggesting that at all. I'm suggesting that persistent, strategic fouling, like outlined in the IT article, be carded.

Tackle away - there are tackle rules there. I'm all for the tackle.

All this pulling and dragging, grabbing the loose arm, pulling and dragging down, anything rather than let a side play out from the back or break the lines should be carded. Fouls on backs playing out are not carded the way a forward foul is - that has to change.

13-05-2021 9:20pm

formerlyET wrote: »

I'm not suggesting that at all. I'm suggesting that persistent, strategic fouling, like outlined in the IT article, be carded.

Tackle away - there are tackle rules there. I'm all for the tackle.

All this pulling and dragging, grabbing the loose arm, pulling and dragging down, anything rather than let a side play out from the back or break the lines should be carded. Fouls on backs playing out are not carded the way a forward foul is - that has to change.

Out of curiosity, why do you think teams are unable to use those frees to their advantage?

supernova5 · 13-05-2021 9:40pm

Billy Ocean wrote: »

got it too, for example this weekend you've access to every football game not on Eir or TG4 and every division 1 hurling game in that bracket too. Obviously alot of them clash, doesn't include division 2A downwards for the hurling.

yea that's the main disadvantage, most of them clash, would need a few different devices and windows opened at the same time but only got 2 eyes at the end of the day

formerlyET · 13-05-2021 9:41pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Out of curiosity, why do you think teams are unable to use those frees to their advantage?

Slows down the play, gives opposition a chance to reset and mark up - can't get forwards onto ball in space in play.

It sets a stop start motion to the play - no flow - no long passages of play. This is the big one - I'm not saying players can't get anything going off a free - but you can't get your forwards into a game if the ball is not in play - if defenders are not allowed break lines and deliver ball - nothing can be set up - and a forward run can't be found with a delivery. That's why there's strategic fouling happening in the backs.

Forward play is built around that kind of play - it's much harder to do off a free - when everybody has got a chance to reset and knows where the ball is coming from.

13-05-2021 9:52pm

formerlyET wrote: »

Slows down the play, gives opposition a chance to reset and mark up - can't get forwards onto ball in space in play.

It sets a stop start motion to the play - no flow - no long passages of play. This is the big one - I'm not saying players can't get anything going off a free - but you can't get your forwards into a game if the ball is not in play - if defenders are not allowed break lines and deliver ball - nothing can be set up - and a forward run can't be found with a delivery. That's why there's strategic fouling happening in the backs.

Forward play is built around that kind of play - it's much harder to do off a free - when everybody has got a chance to reset and knows where the ball is coming from.

seems strange the top hurling coaches in the country can't counteract such a simple tactic or use that possession effectively, imo.

formerlyET · 13-05-2021 10:01pm

Deleted User wrote: »

seems strange the top hurling coaches in the country can't counteract such a simple tactic or use that possession effectively, imo.

It's out of their hands when it's fouling and not skill that's rewarded. You've seen the figures.

I'd love to know how many times a Waterford man was pulled down in the last twenty mins of that Final last year. It was a hell of a lot. It was cringe worthy to watch.

But it's not about how many frees you give away, but where.

13-05-2021 10:07pm

formerlyET wrote: »

It's out of their hands when it's fouling and not skill that's rewarded. You've seen the figures.

I'd love to know how many times a Waterford man was pulled down in the last twenty mins of that Final last year. It was a hell of a lot. It was cringe worthy to watch.

But it's not about how many frees you give away, but where.

Tbh, that final was lost when Waterford didn't take their first half goal chances. Waterford didn't lose due to cynical fouling imo. Anyhow, every team will have plans for when frees are awarded in certain parts of the pitch, it's no one else's fault if they can't maximise on that possession. Hell, according to the Irish Times is was obvious what Limerick would do, it's Waterford's fault not to adjust accordingly.

breezy1985 · 13-05-2021 10:14pm

formerlyET wrote: »

It's out of their hands when it's fouling and not skill that's rewarded. You've seen the figures.

I'd love to know how many times a Waterford man was pulled down in the last twenty mins of that Final last year. It was a hell of a lot. It was cringe worthy to watch.

But it's not about how many frees you give away, but where.

That final was pretty much over with 20 minutes to go and Limerick were 1o points up and cruising.
I just watched the 50th to 55th minute out of curiosity and the 2 biggest moments were a Limerick player absolutely cleaned out in a dangerous tackle which wasnt called and ended in a Waterford point and a Waterford player fouling a Limerick player through on goal.

13-05-2021 10:33pm

breezy1985 wrote: »

That final was pretty much over with 20 minutes to go and Limerick were 1o points up and cruising.
I just watched the 50th to 55th minute out of curiosity and the 2 biggest moments were a Limerick player absolutely cleaned out in a dangerous tackle which wasnt called and ended in a Waterford point and a Waterford player fouling a Limerick player through on goal.

After 50 mins, iirc, Limerick had scored 19 points from play. The idea they won due to cynical play is misguided, tbf.

I've no idea what happened Waterford in the final, especially since they ran Limerick close in the Munster final but the idea they were unable to deal with Limerick's cynicism covers up a bad performance from them, imo.

formerlyET · 13-05-2021 11:16pm

Deleted User wrote: »

After 50 mins, iirc, Limerick had scored 19 points from play. The idea they won due to cynical play is misguided, tbf.

I've no idea what happened Waterford in the final, especially since they ran Limerick close in the Munster final but the idea they were unable to deal with Limerick's cynicism covers up a bad performance from them, imo.

Why did we have the proposals we have going to congress?
Why is Sean Moran reporting on this?
Because it's an issue.
You have your mind made up. That's fair enough. You have no issue with it.
I think it will be a bigger issue come the championship because more teams will be doing it.
If they're not, happy days.
But I don't want to watch a freefest. I want refs dealing with persistent fouling.
If you didn't see persistent fouling in the all-ireland or Limericks games, I don't know what to tell you.
The thinking that anyone won or lost due to cynical play is misguided. That's not the point. The point is the game.
That final was like watching paint dry. A game based on cynicism and persistent fouling in opposition halves. Have you not seen the way football has gone?
This is about the direction of the game.
It was the third All-Ireland final in history in which neither team scored a goal.

formerlyET · 13-05-2021 11:22pm

Best of luck to James Barry in his recovery from testicular cancer - always check yourselves :

https://www.irishexaminer.com/sport/gaa/arid-40288514.html

Eoinbmw · 13-05-2021 11:39pm

formerlyET wrote: »

Why did we have the proposals we have going to congress?
Why is Sean Moran reporting on this?
Because it's an issue.
You have your mind made up. That's fair enough. You have no issue with it.
I think it will be a bigger issue come the championship because more teams will be doing it.
If they're not, happy days.
But I don't want to watch a freefest. I want refs dealing with persistent fouling.
If you didn't see persistent fouling in the all-ireland or Limericks games, I don't know what to tell you.
The thinking that anyone won or lost due to cynical play is misguided. That's not the point. The point is the game.
That final was like watching paint dry. A game based on cynicism and persistent fouling in opposition halves. Have you not seen the way football has gone?
This is about the direction of the game.
It was the third All-Ireland final in history in which neither team scored a goal.

skysports-tipperary-limerick_5158093.jpg?20201101165705

You only see what you want to see!

formerlyET · 13-05-2021 11:44pm

Eoinbmw wrote: »

You only see what you want to see!

It was a photograph of someone grabbing a hurl. You probably didn't see that :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:
Keep up the childish games and repeating me. Very mature

How's the PS5?

breezy1985 · 14-05-2021 2:04am

formerlyET wrote: »

It was a photograph of someone grabbing a hurl. You probably didn't see that :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:
Keep up the childish games and repeating me. Very mature

How's the PS5?

Better get on to Sean Moran and get him to look into this. Whatever about Limericks football tackling Tipp seem to be employing rugby tackling by the look of it

Grats · 14-05-2021 8:41am

As a poster said, whichever team is on top and successful will be the focus of criticism and abuse. It's Limericks turn right now.

The evidence over the last few years would suggest that persistent and strategic fouling is part of Limericks gamelan. While John Kiely didn't invent it, he's fine tuning it to put it mildly.

Go back to the 2019 Final and watch the first half for persistent fouling. It wouldn't be the first time the tactic was used as part of the Tipp game plan in recent years. The problem then, as it is now, is that refs didn't deal with it. Nor were they implementing the advantage rule correctly due to persistent fouling. It's little wonder that the change to the advantage rule, and indeed the black card, was introduced.

Refs should have used the cards but coaching is the culprit.

To reiterate, success brings criticism, the team on top will be the focus.

formerlyET · 14-05-2021 10:05am

Shane Dowling takes two Sean Moran articles and uses them against Moran on RTE website this morning. He must have been reading boards yesterday haha

He takes Sean Moran's researched article about Limerick fouling in the oppositions half and uses it to suggest that teams will use the new rule to do that like it's some new development in the game hahaha

He obviously said this to some RTE hack over the phone and someone has written it up for him.

All because Sean Moran called him chickin licken. Sure, Dowling lives in Chicken Hut.

But seriously Dowling won't last long in this game at that. He might get away with it on limerick FM. But get your own ideas...

Moran response should be good.

Moran's article last year ( https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/gaelic-games/hurling/gaa-statistics-it-s-not-how-many-frees-limerick-concede-against-waterford-but-where-1.4432281 ):

Strategic fouling allows teams to slow down the transition from defence to attack, which in turn sets the game pace to their liking, gives them time to set up, and lays down a physical marker. Any turnover in the opposition’s defence is a scoring chance for Limerick, while any free conceded is unlikely to be in range for a point at the other end.

Tackling technique
These frees Limerick are giving away are strategic in terms of the areas where they are pressing, but the actual fouling is as much to do with their tackling technique.

The Munster champions tackle like a football team, with the first man making contact looking to put their opponent back on his heels, allowing the rest of the pack to surround and force a turnover. Limerick can only deploy this approach because most teams try to work the ball short out of their backline, and this is when they target them.

Dowling's "article" this morning ( https://www.rte.ie/sport/gaa/2021/0513/1221370-call-me-chicken-licken-but-shambolic-rule-ruining-game/ ):
Do you know what is going to happen now? Teams are going to use it as a tactic to get their forwards to foul teams in their full-back or half-back line. Why? Because then they can’t break at pace, they can’t play the ball through the lines, and they can’t create the overlap.

Give away a free back there, it won’t be scoreable, or very few will be, teams can retreat and close off space to the forward line and it becomes a 50/50 all of a sudden. Obviously, teams are going to try tackle first and win back possession, but if a player breaks them... watch this space, they will pull a jersey, trip someone, etc.

Obviously, the further up the field a player gets, the less likely teams are to foul as they will be in scoring positions.

breezy1985 · 14-05-2021 10:31am

formerlyET wrote: »

Shane Dowling takes two Sean Moran articles and uses them against Moran on RTE website this morning. He must have been reading boards yesterday haha

He takes Sean Moran's researched article about Limerick fouling in the oppositions half and uses it to suggest that teams will use the new rule to do that like it's some new development in the game hahaha

He obviously said this to some RTE hack over the phone and someone has written it up for him.

All because Sean Moran called him chickin licken. Sure, Dowling lives in Chicken Hut.

But seriously Dowling won't last long in this game at that. He might get away with it on limerick FM. But get your own ideas...

Moran response should be good.

Moran's article last year ( https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/gaelic-games/hurling/gaa-statistics-it-s-not-how-many-frees-limerick-concede-against-waterford-but-where-1.4432281 ):

Strategic fouling allows teams to slow down the transition from defence to attack, which in turn sets the game pace to their liking, gives them time to set up, and lays down a physical marker. Any turnover in the opposition’s defence is a scoring chance for Limerick, while any free conceded is unlikely to be in range for a point at the other end.

Tackling technique
These frees Limerick are giving away are strategic in terms of the areas where they are pressing, but the actual fouling is as much to do with their tackling technique.

The Munster champions tackle like a football team, with the first man making contact looking to put their opponent back on his heels, allowing the rest of the pack to surround and force a turnover. Limerick can only deploy this approach because most teams try to work the ball short out of their backline, and this is when they target them.

Dowling's "article" this morning ( https://www.rte.ie/sport/gaa/2021/0513/1221370-call-me-chicken-licken-but-shambolic-rule-ruining-game/ ):
Do you know what is going to happen now? Teams are going to use it as a tactic to get their forwards to foul teams in their full-back or half-back line. Why? Because then they can’t break at pace, they can’t play the ball through the lines, and they can’t create the overlap.

Give away a free back there, it won’t be scoreable, or very few will be, teams can retreat and close off space to the forward line and it becomes a 50/50 all of a sudden. Obviously, teams are going to try tackle first and win back possession, but if a player breaks them... watch this space, they will pull a jersey, trip someone, etc.

Obviously, the further up the field a player gets, the less likely teams are to foul as they will be in scoring positions.

So so bitter.
My favourite is how Moran has an article but Dowling has an "article"
Moran gets to be a journalist but then you insinuate that Dowling cant write his own "article" so needs a "hack"

He has no problem calling frees he just wants a few seconds more advantage given before the whistle is blown

"I outlined why I believe the advantage rule will not work. I showed Conor Boylan putting a ball over the bar, and the play being called back for a free. What I didn’t show, and I should have, was where the free ended up going. Wide is the answer"

"So what’s my point? What looked wrong over the last few years? The cynical fouling did. Itmay need tweaks along the way, but it’s a good start! And it was wrong. What didn’t look wrong? The previous advantage rule. So why change it?"

big_drive · 14-05-2021 10:52am

TJ getting the weekend off I see and eoin Murphy getting a break too

Billy Ocean · 14-05-2021 12:27pm

big_drive wrote: »

TJ getting the weekend off I see and eoin Murphy getting a break too

They'll probably return for Wexford the following week, bad news for my fantasy hurling team, I'll have Callum Lyons not playing too.

14-05-2021 2:57pm

formerlyET wrote: »

But I don't want to watch a freefest. I want refs dealing with persistent fouling.
If you didn't see persistent fouling in the all-ireland or Limericks games, I don't know what to tell you.

And yet you are calling for a free fest by wanting every contact scrutinised.

There has been persistent fouling in hurling since I've been watching it, and presumably before that too. As I pointed out, the greatest side of the modern (and probably any) era, Kilkenny were adept at it too. It's probably trite and "old school" to say it but physicality and fouling go hand in hand in hurling, whether purists want to accept that or not.

Personally I draw a distinction between "foul" play and "dirty" play. This Limerick side is nowhere near as dirty as sides that have gone before, imo.

formerlyET · 14-05-2021 3:14pm

Deleted User wrote: »

And yet you are calling for a free fest by wanting every contact scrutinised.

There has been persistent fouling in hurling since I've been watching it, and presumably before that too. As I pointed out, the greatest side of the modern (and probably any) era, Kilkenny were adept at it too. It's probably trite and "old school" to say it but physicality and fouling go hand in hand in hurling, whether purists want to accept that or not.

Personally I draw a distinction between "foul" play and "dirty" play. This Limerick side is nowhere near as dirty as sides that have gone before, imo.

I see very little to compare this Limerick side with that Kilkenny team.

Kilkenny did not persistently foul. They were not a heavily structured or over tactical side. Watch the games.

Comparing Limerick with Kilkenny is like comparing chalk with cheese. Those two sides are nothing like each other. I see no limerick players like DJ Carey Tommy Walsh, Henry Shefflin, or TJ Reid. You're talking about some of the most forwarded-minded players to play the game. Those teams were goals, goals, goals.

Who used the word dirty? That's your word choice.
I'm not asking for a freefest. I said the opposite. Read what I wrote.

If you give a new rule a chance to develop rather than judge it after one game...it might have a chance and it can certainly be adapted or changed. It's pretty frequent in all games, new rules and adaptation. There's not a game that doesn't have new rule or adaptations to rules.

Don't agree with those points about Kilkenny. Kilkenny played to the edge like most sides - but they didn't just foul teams in their own half repeatedly to stem flow of a game and force constant restarts. They played no holds barred forward-minded hurling. They hurled teams. They dropped back wing backs for puck outs at times but they also bombed forward.

If you penalise persistent fouling accordingly, it will stamp persistent fouling out. If you penalise dragging down, it will stamp it out. If people start picking up cards they'll stop fouling defenders coming out with the ball so readily.

That's part of what the league is as a dress rehearsal for championship. Letting players know what's acceptable on the field and not. Especially with new rules.

I get you don't you agree. Move on. I can't agree with any of those points about kilkenny or what you're saying I've said. Completely wrong.

14-05-2021 3:27pm

formerlyET wrote: »

I see very little to compare this Limerick side with that Kilkenny team.

Kilkenny did not persistently foul. They were not a heavily structured or over tactical side. Watch the games.

Comparing Limerick with Kilkenny is like comparing chalk with cheese. Those two sides are nothing like each other. I see no limerick players like DJ Carey Tommy Walsh, Henry Shefflin, or TJ Reid. You're talking about some of the most forwarded-minded players to play the game. Those teams were goals, goals, goals.

Who used the word dirty? That's your word choice.
I'm not asking for a freefest. I said the opposite. Read what I wrote.

If you give a new rule a chance to develop rather than judge it after one game...it might have a chance and it can certainly be adapted or changed. It's pretty frequent in all games, new rules and adaptation. There's not a game that doesn't have new rule or adaptations to rules.

Don't agree with those points about Kilkenny. Kilkenny played to the edge like most sides - but they didn't just foul teams in their own half repeatedly to stem flow of a game and force constant restarts. They played no holds barred forward-minded hurling. They hurled teams. They dropped back wing backs for puck outs at times but they also bombed forward.

If you penalise persistent fouling accordingly, it will stamp persistent fouling out. If you penalise dragging down, it will stamp it out. If people start picking up cards they'll stop fouling defenders coming out with the ball so readily.

I get you don't you agree. Move on. I can't agree with any of those points about kilkenny or what you're saying I've said. Completely wrong.

Go away and read Tyrell's book and see if you still think Kilkenny weren't every bit as cynical as any other team. There's literally pages and pages about how they worked out how to push refs as far as they could. Their incredible skills hid a really, really cynical edge. And it was a collective decision, it wasn't just one or two lads. Tyrell literally revels in it.

You can probably find the footage of Brennan laughing about meeting Hickey's mother in Limerick years after the 2007 final and the foul on Hickey being brought up (in a loan application to a credit union, iirc). Hickey is standing beside him in the footage and has to laugh along but that piece of play was the dirtiest thing i've ever seen on a pitch in a final. If I did the same to you on the street you'd rightly call the Gardaí on me.

And again, none of the above is to knock Tyrell, Brennan or Kilkenny in general, they went for it and they won it but spare me the nonsense organised cynicism is only a new thing.

breezy1985 · 14-05-2021 3:40pm

Limerick must be great altogether. They outscore teams by getting less frees and not attacking

14-05-2021 3:49pm

breezy1985 wrote: »

Limerick must be great altogether. They outscore teams by getting less frees and not attacking

It's a weird one. A Clare mate of mine wants to make the sliotar heavier to stop Hegarty and others scoring from way out. I've argued (unsuccessfully) it's a serious skill in itself, but I can see the logic behind the suggestion tbh. Wonder how much heavier it would have to be to make a difference?

breezy1985 · 14-05-2021 4:00pm

[Deleted User] wrote: »

It's a weird one. A Clare mate of mine wants to make the sliotar heavier to stop Hegarty and others scoring from way out. I've argued (unsuccessfully) it's a serious skill in itself, but I can see the logic behind the suggestion tbh. Wonder how much heavier it would have to be to make a difference?

I have read that it's not weight that is the big problem but more how they are made now

Mad about baa baas · 14-05-2021 5:33pm

breezy1985 wrote: »

I have read that it's not weight that is the big problem but more how they are made now

Is.there a case to be made for limiting the size of.the bas of the hurl. ...modern outfield players have hurls that look like goalies hurls from 20 years ago.. my children are 12 and have a bas like an adult hurl..
To be fair the modern intercounty hurler probably has a huge amount of.muscle and strength compared to previous men too

breezy1985 · 14-05-2021 6:34pm

Mad about baa baas wrote: »

Is.there a case to be made for limiting the size of.the bas of the hurl. ...modern outfield players have hurls that look like goalies hurls from 20 years ago.. my children are 12 and have a bas like an adult hurl..
To be fair the modern intercounty hurler probably has a huge amount of.muscle and strength compared to previous men too

It's the player is the real difference. Fitness levels are crazy compared to 10 years ago even

Eoinbmw · 14-05-2021 7:23pm

breezy1985 wrote: »

It's the player is the real difference. Fitness levels are crazy compared to 10 years ago even

It would be interesting to compare inter county players average height and weight compared to say 20 years ago!
And throw in a lean muscle mass comparison also id say the difference is crazy!

National Hurling League 2021 discussion

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