National Hurling League 2021 discussion

big_drive

Brian Carroll is an absolute dose at best if times

Grats

Speakerboxx wrote: »

You are waffling I'm afraid.

You shouldn't let get to you so.

letowski

big_drive wrote: »

Brian Carroll is an absolute dose at best if times

I think he makes a fair point though.

The game I think most of us love here, when hurling is at its best, its fast, frenetic, end to end, physical, intense, etc. The way its been played the last 12 months, there's just no speed or physicality anymore. Nobody marks eachother between the 40s and with freetakers able to score on their own 40, players are apprehensive to put in a tackle.

So we get lots of these type of games tonight. Challenge game level stuff. Slow paced, loose, loads of tippy tappy stick/hand passes around midfield, shooting from inside your own half.

Poor spectacle.

mooz

letowski wrote: »

I think he makes a fair point though.

The game I think most of us love here, when hurling is at its best, its fast, frenetic, end to end, physical, intense, etc. The way its been played the last 12 months, there's just no speed or physicality anymore. Nobody marks eachother between the 40s and with freetakers able to score on their own 40, players are apprehensive to put in a tackle.

So we get lots of these type of games tonight. Challenge game level stuff. Slow paced, loose, loads of tippy tappy stick/hand passes around midfield, shooting from inside your own half.

Poor spectacle.

Spot on. Couldn't agree more with you. So few 50/50 balls or zero ground hurling makes it ponderous and laborious to watch. 6 or 7 passes and sometimes more before a ball is delivered to the forward line. Sometimes the angled ball is no advantage to the forward as it's so close to the sideline or many are running away from the goal and it ends up being recycled or worse, breaks down.
Frustrating to watch in truth

4Ad

mooz wrote: »

Spot on. Couldn't agree more with you. So few 50/50 balls or zero ground hurling makes it ponderous and laborious to watch. 6 or 7 passes and sometimes more before a ball is delivered to the forward line. Sometimes the angled ball is no advantage to the forward as it's so close to the sideline or many are running away from the goal and it ends up being recycled or worse, breaks down.
Frustrating to watching in truth

'Ground hurling' now thats something I (unfortunately) haven't seen in a while..
Tip tapping and handpassing is ruining the game..

Billy Ocean

Ground hurling only exists for goal chances now, anywhere else its just seen as an unnecessary risk of giving away possession, i'm hoping it's just a blip, some of hurling from 2018/19 was outstanding, last year obviously the most unique championship we will probably ever experience so hard to judge.

Davys Fits

Handpassing is ruining the game. It has a already ruined football and hurling is following it down the dung hole. There are variations of the hurling handpass that are a joy to watch and skillful. The flick from hurl to hand or switching hands are fine but the one handed 'throw' is the abomination of the modern game. Get rid now before its too late!

Eoinbmw

Aw Lads ground hurling is for under 10's!
The "pull" is for the throw in, you'll likely get the sideline these days for a good "pull" thats the reality of things!

crossman47

Eoinbmw wrote: »

Aw Lads ground hurling is for under 10's!
The "pull" is for the throw in, you'll likely get the sideline these days for a good "pull" thats the reality of things!

It gave Cork their first goal and a good pull would clear out some of those awful rucks.

breezy1985

Eoinbmw wrote: »

Aw Lads ground hurling is for under 10's!
The "pull" is for the throw in, you'll likely get the sideline these days for a good "pull" thats the reality of things!

Hurling back in the days of ground hurling looked like pure muck. A load of headless chickens chopping away at a ball and half of em missing the thing

Eoinbmw

crossman47 wrote: »

It gave Cork their first goal and a good pull would clear out some of those awful rucks.

Agreed but with refereeing these days you'd be off lol!

zetecescort

Eoinbmw wrote: »

Agreed but with refereeing these days you'd be off lol!

Was Tim O'Mahoney booked last night for an overhead pull or was there something else in it? Did he hit the Tipp player?

TheMilkyPirate

breezy1985 wrote: »

Hurling back in the days of ground hurling looked like pure muck. A load of headless chickens chopping away at a ball and half of em missing the thing

The players weren't as skillful then though obviously. A good pull on the ball with a bit of skill and accuracy would be much better than watching ten lads crowd around a ball and try pick it off the floor for 20 seconds.

formerlyET

breezy1985 wrote: »

Hurling back in the days of ground hurling looked like pure muck. A load of headless chickens chopping away at a ball and half of em missing the thing

That was due to the weight of the ball - much harder to get into the hand and keep in the hand. Much more of a chance of the ball dropping or knocking it from a players grasp when it's weighty. If they went back to a heavier ball you'd have a lot more pulling.

I can't think of a game where the ball hasn't got lighter. Perhaps, field hockey or cricket but I don't know much about those sports.

Anybody complaining about balls or hurls hasn't played or isn't playing much hurling. Pub stool stuff.

How balls and hurls are developing is very exciting at the moment. Particularly, what the Torpeys are doing.

breezy1985

TheMilkyPirate wrote: »

The players weren't as skillful then though obviously. A good pull on the ball with a bit of skill and accuracy would be much better than watching ten lads crowd around a ball and try pick it off the floor for 20 seconds.

Ya but if the players back then we're more skillful they wouldn't bother pulling on it. Pulling and hoofing is a desperation move and hurling was never full of skillful accurate ground hurlers

Boggerman12

I’m going to tipp matches since’87 and for the first time in nearly 30 plus yrs I found it extremely hard not to turn off what was going on in the stadium last nite.hurling is been ruined by the same tactics that Jim mcguinness adopted in 2011 against the dubs.
Nothing wrong with the game evolving but last nite made me hark back to the halcyon days off tipp Kilkenny.yes we lost way more than we beat them but Christ u were always entertained be it the all Ireland finals or a league match under the lights.

formerlyET

breezy1985 wrote: »

Ya but if the players back then we're more skillful they wouldn't bother pulling on it. Pulling and hoofing is a desperation move and hurling was never full of skillful accurate ground hurlers

The game was different then.

Different ball, hurleys, different rules. To say the players back then weren't skillful is just plain wrong.

The overhead pulling, ground hurling, striking, doubling, and hooking were highly skilled.

And as for the standard of pitches...

blackcard

Billy Ocean wrote: »

https://twitter.com/BrianCarroll13/status/1393677988533784580?s=19

I think that action has to take place soon or it will be too late. The first step is to call a free for any handpass unless there is clear separation between the ball and hand. This may mean that some legitimate handpasses will be blown up for frees but players will soon adapt and alter their handpassing technique

The second thing to tackle is the number of steps being taken. You have a corner back trying to get past a corner forward, he takes a few steps before he goes into contact, another few steps as he rounds his opponents and another few steps before he throws the ball to a team mate. Penalize the back and he will get rid of the ball earlier.

Third is the distance that the ball travels. Each team has a player who can land a free from 110 yards. Even if you only score half of these, it makes more sense to go for the score than to play it into the forwards.

The value of a goal needs to be increased to 4 points. When you have teams scoring 25-30 points,, there is not the same incentive to go for a goal. Cyril Farrell used to say that 'goals win matches'. This applies no longer

I don't know how you can eliminate sweepers but if you do the rest it would be a start. I still think that the team with the best hurlers, currently Limerick, would still win

Eoinbmw

blackcard wrote: »

I think that action has to take place soon or it will be too late. The first step is to call a free for any handpass unless there is clear separation between the ball and hand. This may mean that some legitimate handpasses will be blown up for frees but players will soon adapt and alter their handpassing technique

The second thing to tackle is the number of steps being taken. You have a corner back trying to get past a corner forward, he takes a few steps before he goes into contact, another few steps as he rounds his opponents and another few steps before he throws the ball to a team mate. Penalize the back and he will get rid of the ball earlier.

Third is the distance that the ball travels. Each team has a player who can land a free from 110 yards. Even if you only score half of these, it makes more sense to go for the score than to play it into the forwards.

The value of a goal needs to be increased to 4 points. When you have teams scoring 25-30 points,, there is not the same incentive to go for a goal. Cyril Farrell used to say that 'goals win matches'. This applies no longer

I don't know how you can eliminate sweepers but if you do the rest it would be a start. I still think that the team with the best hurlers, currently Limerick, would still win

What about indirect frees like in Rugby? Direct frees only in the attacking half or for foul play offences not for technical offences such as traveling or throwing etc?

Rosita

Hurling is becoming unwatchable because possession is much less of a contest and scores are too easy to get. Dublin and Laois was 0-30 to 1-19. 42 scores from two middling teams? Take out the time the ball was out of play (probably about 20-30 secs for each score) and you'd wonder if there was any contest for possession at all.

The "in the 1983 All Ireland on TG4 they weren't able to rise the ball" argument is fine but irrelevant.

A start might be abolishing the handpass altogether. The throwing of the ball (see Cork's first goal last night) is hardly a skill. And it just enables this short passing/running game which is boring when there's no real way of tackling unless possession is being contested.

costacorta

breezy1985 wrote: »

Ya but if the players back then we're more skillful they wouldn't bother pulling on it. Pulling and hoofing is a desperation move and hurling was never full of skillful accurate ground hurlers

You must never have watched John Fenton on a hurling pitch ?

Rosita

blackcard wrote: »

I think that action has to take place soon or it will be too late. The first step is to call a free for any handpass unless there is clear separation between the ball and hand. This may mean that some legitimate handpasses will be blown up for frees but players will soon adapt and alter their handpassing technique

The second thing to tackle is the number of steps being taken. You have a corner back trying to get past a corner forward, he takes a few steps before he goes into contact, another few steps as he rounds his opponents and another few steps before he throws the ball to a team mate. Penalize the back and he will get rid of the ball earlier.

Third is the distance that the ball travels. Each team has a player who can land a free from 110 yards. Even if you only score half of these, it makes more sense to go for the score than to play it into the forwards.

The value of a goal needs to be increased to 4 points. When you have teams scoring 25-30 points,, there is not the same incentive to go for a goal. Cyril Farrell used to say that 'goals win matches'. This applies no longer

I don't know how you can eliminate sweepers but if you do the rest it would be a start. I still think that the team with the best hurlers, currently Limerick, would still win

Just on the last point, who would win us irrelevant despite what the haters think.

But if you increase the value of a goal you'll just encourage more fouling to prevent them.

Dyr

They really need to do something about the handpass, either change the rule so the ball must be cleary tossed in an upwards motion with the hand below it before being struck or make it so anyone recieving a handpass cannot in turn handpass.

Notcied in Dublin Laois ref was being fairly strict about steps, so long as the refs are equally strict about arm dragging that will help.


Heavier sliotar would sort of a lot of the problems too.

Asdfgh2020

costacorta wrote: »

You must never have watched John Fenton on a hurling pitch ?

A ‘ground stroke’ in hurling has a very unpredictable result.... in the modern game which is all about retaining possession....pulling on the ground is not the percentage option....therefore there is less and less of it...!

formerlyET

Maybe to be trialled in future leagues?

Should the amount of players on the field be reduced to 14 or 13? More open space on the field. With more subs allowed? Unlimited subs. Can bring back on players.

Lengthen to 40 mins a half?

Unlimited subs - whole panel present.

Dyr

formerlyET wrote: »

Maybe to be trialled in future leagues?

Should the amount of players on the field be reduced to 14 or 13? More open space on the field. With more subs allowed? Unlimited subs. Can bring back on players.

Lengthen to 40 mins a half?

Unlimited subs - whole panel present.

I always thought that was the solution for football, reduce it to 13 and see if lads are willing to play a possesion game with that much open space

Could work in hurling too I guess

Rosita

Bambi wrote: »

I always thought that was the solution for football, reduce it to 13 and see if lads are willing to play a possesion game with that much open space

I'd say in football less players would make a possession game even more necessary as the extra space would put even more fear of losing possession into coaches

breezy1985

Sorry if it's off topic but big comeback from Down today who were trailing 0-5 to I think 1-16 only to turn it round and beat Carlow 3-20 to 3-18

Wexford also come from from 8 down to snatch it by a point against Clare

castletownman

Clare-Wexford was a good watch.

Game probably hinged on Clare's red card (they were slapping a lot of elbows all match), but Wexford's second goal was as good a goal as you'll see-exhibition stuff.

Wexford's free-taking was a concern though, in an era where a high conversion rate has become more important than ever.

carq

Waterford trialling the 13 man system.

Always one step ahead

breezy1985

carq wrote: »

Waterford trialling the 13 man system.

Always one step ahead

I would be more worried about the down. Finding themselves in a relegation battle at the minute

funkey_monkey

7 point defeat for Antrim in what looked to be a cracker of a game.
Hopefully they keep it up over the season and into the championship.

CrabRevolution

Rosita wrote: »

I'd say in football less players would make a possession game even more necessary as the extra space would put even more fear of losing possession into coaches

That's exactly what would happen. There comes a point where rules which are designed to incentivise a particular act end up doing the opposite. Teams will avoid risk even more because of the new vulnerability of having fewer players.

It's similar to an example I often see at club level. If numbers are low on a given night in training and they're playing a small sided game, the management will think "If I make the pitch enormous, the players will have loads of room to run into, allowing moves to develop. They'll also work really hard trying to cover all the space".

In reality the opposite happens as players realise that it's humanly impossible for 5 players to cover 2 thirds of a pitch, so they resolve to work only in their patch of the field and avoid the risk of being caught up the field. The game ends up becoming even less expansive than if they'd simply tightened the pitch and encouraged players to move around within that smaller area.

formerlyET

CrabRevolution wrote: »

That's exactly what would happen. There comes a point where rules which are designed to incentivise a particular act end up doing the opposite. Teams will avoid risk even more because of the new vulnerability of having fewer players.

It's similar to an example I often see at club level. If numbers are low on a given night in training and they're playing a small sided game, the management will think "If I make the pitch enormous, the players will have loads of room to run into, allowing moves to develop. They'll also work really hard trying to cover all the space".

In reality the opposite happens as players realise that it's humanly impossible for 5 players to cover 2 thirds of a pitch, so they resolve to work only in their patch of the field and avoid the risk of being caught up the field. The game ends up becoming even less expansive than if they'd simply tightened the pitch and encouraged players to move around within that smaller area.

Hence why an open and unlimited policy on subs would be required, a la aussie rules. Give the whole panel an opportunity too.

Happyilylost

Red.

JJs Left Hand

For O Neill? Will ya stop twas barely a tap

breezy1985

JJs Left Hand wrote: »

For O Neill? Will ya stop twas barely a tap

Held his hands up straight away helped I'm out I reckon. It looked accidental but refs can give em

Happyilylost

JJs Left Hand wrote:

For O Neill? Will ya stop twas barely a tap

It was tongue in cheek with people talking about the crackdown on Limerick. Still a hurl to a helmet is putting yourself in a dangerous position. Limerick have a habit so far of having hurls hands up around helmets.

threeball

Limerick have been loose with the hurl last year and this. Glad to see them getting pulled up. Hegarty is particularly fond of laying a bit of timber on a lad after the fact.

formerlyET

threeball wrote: »

Limerick have been loose with the hurl last year and this. Glad to see them getting pulled up. Hegarty is particularly fond of laying a bit of timber on a lad after the fact.

He got a bit of timber there himself.

ShamoBuc

Outstanding by Hegarty.

threeball

formerlyET wrote: »

He got a bit of timber there himself.

He did. Should have been a free and possibly a card.

breezy1985

Limerick sending a lot of ball direct in the forwards. Seem keen to run on goal too probably down to Casey as it's part of his game

breezy1985

threeball wrote: »

Limerick have been loose with the hurl last year and this. Glad to see them getting pulled up. Hegarty is particularly fond of laying a bit of timber on a lad after the fact.

Ah Limerick Schrodingers hurlers. Constantly giving away frees while at the same time never getting pulled for fouls

PTH2009

A rare Limerick goal

ShamoBuc

Hegarty set that goal up very well. Limerick needed that as the scoreboard was beginning to widen.

Eoinbmw

They have a bad habit of trying to force a goal and give up a lot of scores guilty of it last year during games!

breezy1985

Eoinbmw wrote: »

They have a bad habit of trying to force a goal and give up a lot of scores guilty of it last year during games!

All week we were hearing about how they never go for goals on here

formerlyET

Cian Lynch loves putting the hurley in around the neck

The White Feather

How many frees have there been in this half of Hurling? Interesting to see the stats.

I read there were 49 frees in the Waterford game