The Dominance of Dublin GAA Mod warning post#1

ooter · 13-03-2021 10:39pm

Interesting comments on hurling in Dublin, "significant participation numbers, in a healthy place particularly at underage in terms of the numbers and the interest."

Surely that's what games development is all about.

munster87 · 13-03-2021 10:59pm

Enquiring wrote: »

You can have a go at answering some questions if you want. I'll give you two.

Can you explain why Cork with a similar amount of youth teams and players and a far wider area to cover have access to fractions of the number of coaches that Dublin have?

Can you try to justify why you think it's ok for Dublin to have income levels of 5 and 6 million more than most other counties without using whataboutery?

...

Lost Ormond · 13-03-2021 11:02pm

Enquiring wrote: »

You can have a go at answering some questions if you want. I'll give you two.

Can you explain why Cork with a similar amount of youth teams and players and a far wider area to cover have access to fractions of the number of coaches that Dublin have?

Can you try to justify why you think it's ok for Dublin to have income levels of 5 and 6 million more than most other counties without using whataboutery?

Because there is lot more potential kids who havent played GAA/could potentially play GAA that these development officers are assisting in Dublin.
Far more of the cork population is rural and ties to GAA clubs better than in Dublin and you would expect the county with largest population etc to have far greater income than other counties.

JeffKenna · 16-03-2021 10:01pm

ShyMets wrote: »

There is a case to be made for it. And he's not the only manager who has questioned wheatear the Championship structure should change

Provincial system needs to go. The perfect structure already exists in the League. A lot of the weaker teams already place more emphasis on the League over the championship, I think those players need to be catered for as opposed to keeping the coffers of provincial councils topped up.

Strumms · 16-03-2021 10:53pm

Enquiring wrote: »

You can have a go at answering some questions if you want. I'll give you two.

Can you explain why Cork with a similar amount of youth teams and players and a far wider area to cover have access to fractions of the number of coaches that Dublin have?

Can you try to justify why you think it's ok for Dublin to have income levels of 5 and 6 million more than most other counties without using whataboutery?

Justifying why it’s ok for Dublin to have xxxx income ? Because... this is the Republic of Ireland, it’s a democracy... if Dublin county board have a meeting with Sony next week, Sony say.. 5 million a year for 4 years if you agree....

-Sony on all shirts,
-training gear,
-bags,
-team bus,
-advertising in programs,
-x number of hoardings at home grounds...
-players do a couple of advertisements in return...

That’s a legal and private arrangement between two organizations...if I as the chairman of Dublin county board so much as received an e-mail from GAA head office trying to redistribute a proportion of that cash to other counties or blocking the ability to do a sponsorship deal I’m talking to my lawyer and conducting every move in the playbook, civil and criminal if applicable to allow Dublin to do as they legally can.

Ireland is a member of the EU.. goods, services, people AND capital are enabled to move freely between countries, companies, people and organizations.... the GAA pipe up saying Dublin owe xxxxxx just because....

Dublin might just be taking more then Sam Maguire out of croker :eek:;)

MayoAreMagic · 03-05-2021 9:23pm

Strumms wrote: »

Justifying why it’s ok for Dublin to have xxxx income ? Because... this is the Republic of Ireland, it’s a democracy... if Dublin county board have a meeting with Sony next week, Sony say.. 5 million a year for 4 years if you agree....

-Sony on all shirts,
-training gear,
-bags,
-team bus,
-advertising in programs,
-x number of hoardings at home grounds...
-players do a couple of advertisements in return...

That’s a legal and private arrangement between two organizations...if I as the chairman of Dublin county board so much as received an e-mail from GAA head office trying to redistribute a proportion of that cash to other counties or blocking the ability to do a sponsorship deal I’m talking to my lawyer and conducting every move in the playbook, civil and criminal if applicable to allow Dublin to do as they legally can.

Ireland is a member of the EU.. goods, services, people AND capital are enabled to move freely between countries, companies, people and organizations.... the GAA pipe up saying Dublin owe xxxxxx just because....

Dublin might just be taking more then Sam Maguire out of croker :eek:;)

Do you not see how this attitude is at odds with the whole gaa ethos though? This 'lawyer up' mentality is totally toxic and detrimental to the gaa as a whole.
Can you not see that nobody within the gaa community took this attitude when dublin were getting awarded unfair treatment, and that this was because they wanted a good dublin team who would add to the quality of the competition, even if they were going to have to foot the bill? Do you not see how badly your attitude comes across in respect to that reality?

It leads me to the conclusion that dublin fans dont really want to be part of the gaa at all. They dont really care about it. They just want dublin winning the same maguire. It is a sad reality, but it is hard to come to any other conclusion, when you consider their attitude.

The Golden Miller · 03-05-2021 11:33pm

This thread still going. Whats left to discuss? Football died in 2011, the year this Dublin team reaped the benefits of huge funding from the government. On top of that, it drew more fans in the capital, drawing in bigger sponsorship. The playing field is no longer even.

I remember on Newstalk some lad involved in Galway GAA was on. Galway beat Dublin underage in the All-Ireland. Next thing is the Dublin footballers go senior and are fast tracked onto professional strength and conditioning programmes. They become well oiled robots, conditioned machines. How can anyone compete with that?

What's really incredible is the fact Kerry nearly do regardless. Such is the freakish nature of their mystical talent conveyor belt, they can compete and the only ones who will be able to consistently. What we seen 2 years ago was conditioned professionals who played against amateurs. Kerry had to make the difference on all Dublin's advantages with raw talent alone, and they nearly did.

So most counties do have a right to complain about Dublin's advantages, except one, and that's Meath. This once proud county has become an embarrassment. Watching their manager cry about Dublin's advantages on live TV was pathetic. Are Dublin's advantages why Meath are so bad. Why can team's like Mayo do far better than Meath. When Meath get their house in order, and do the best they can do and still come up short, then they can complain. Meath never did excuses. Play hard, fight tooth and nail. Shake hands. No whinging

But they are miles off even being the best team they can be. In GAA, Meath were once the embodiment of heart, fight, spirit, determination, presence, hardness, toughness, unwavering belief and a cast iron will, the willingness to run through walls for the cause. Now look at them. Regardless of talent, if Dublin beat them, they should be coming off battered and bruised, made work for every ball. What Meath player can say they left everything on the field v Dublin in the last 10 years of so? A once proud county now seen as small and weak, scared and with no bottle. Scared to even kick the ball over the bar right in front of goal v Dublin. It's actually harder to kick 25 wide's than score 4 pints in a game. Something gone seriously seriously wrong in their psychology and bottle, because they have talent. They look like clueless children playing men v Dublin

cson · 04-05-2021 7:11pm

The Golden Miller wrote: »

This thread still going. Whats left to discuss? Football died in 2011, the year this Dublin team reaped the benefits of huge funding from the government. On top of that, it drew more fans in the capital, drawing in bigger sponsorship. The playing field is no longer even.

I remember on Newstalk some lad involved in Galway GAA was on. Galway beat Dublin underage in the All-Ireland. Next thing is the Dublin footballers go senior and are fast tracked onto professional strength and conditioning programmes. They become well oiled robots, conditioned machines. How can anyone compete with that?

What's really incredible is the fact Kerry nearly do regardless. Such is the freakish nature of their mystical talent conveyor belt, they can compete and the only ones who will be able to consistently. What we seen 2 years ago was conditioned professionals who played against amateurs. Kerry had to make the difference on all Dublin's advantages with raw talent alone, and they nearly did.

So most counties do have a right to complain about Dublin's advantages, except one, and that's Meath. This once proud county has become an embarrassment. Watching their manager cry about Dublin's advantages on live TV was pathetic. Are Dublin's advantages why Meath are so bad. Why can team's like Mayo do far better than Meath. When Meath get their house in order, and do the best they can do and still come up short, then they can complain. Meath never did excuses. Play hard, fight tooth and nail. Shake hands. No whinging

But they are miles off even being the best team they can be. In GAA, Meath were once the embodiment of heart, fight, spirit, determination, presence, hardness, toughness, unwavering belief and a cast iron will, the willingness to run through walls for the cause. Now look at them. Regardless of talent, if Dublin beat them, they should be coming off battered and bruised, made work for every ball. What Meath player can say they left everything on the field v Dublin in the last 10 years of so? A once proud county now seen as small and weak, scared and with no bottle. Scared to even kick the ball over the bar right in front of goal v Dublin. It's actually harder to kick 25 wide's than score 4 pints in a game. Something gone seriously seriously wrong in their psychology and bottle, because they have talent. They look like clueless children playing men v Dublin

People were saying the same about hurling when Kilkenny were on the drive for five and now its incredibly competitive. These things are cyclical and another team will beat Dublin again.

kilns · 05-05-2021 9:33am

The Golden Miller wrote: »

This thread still going. Whats left to discuss? Football died in 2011, the year this Dublin team reaped the benefits of huge funding from the government. On top of that, it drew more fans in the capital, drawing in bigger sponsorship. The playing field is no longer even.

I remember on Newstalk some lad involved in Galway GAA was on. Galway beat Dublin underage in the All-Ireland. Next thing is the Dublin footballers go senior and are fast tracked onto professional strength and conditioning programmes. They become well oiled robots, conditioned machines. How can anyone compete with that?

What's really incredible is the fact Kerry nearly do regardless. Such is the freakish nature of their mystical talent conveyor belt, they can compete and the only ones who will be able to consistently. What we seen 2 years ago was conditioned professionals who played against amateurs. Kerry had to make the difference on all Dublin's advantages with raw talent alone, and they nearly did.

So most counties do have a right to complain about Dublin's advantages, except one, and that's Meath. This once proud county has become an embarrassment. Watching their manager cry about Dublin's advantages on live TV was pathetic. Are Dublin's advantages why Meath are so bad. Why can team's like Mayo do far better than Meath. When Meath get their house in order, and do the best they can do and still come up short, then they can complain. Meath never did excuses. Play hard, fight tooth and nail. Shake hands. No whinging

But they are miles off even being the best team they can be. In GAA, Meath were once the embodiment of heart, fight, spirit, determination, presence, hardness, toughness, unwavering belief and a cast iron will, the willingness to run through walls for the cause. Now look at them. Regardless of talent, if Dublin beat them, they should be coming off battered and bruised, made work for every ball. What Meath player can say they left everything on the field v Dublin in the last 10 years of so? A once proud county now seen as small and weak, scared and with no bottle. Scared to even kick the ball over the bar right in front of goal v Dublin. It's actually harder to kick 25 wide's than score 4 pints in a game. Something gone seriously seriously wrong in their psychology and bottle, because they have talent. They look like clueless children playing men v Dublin

Oh yes those poor Kerry lads, they have to clear sheep off the pitch before they play games and its just their mystical talent conveyor belt & raw natural talent that lets them compete. They would never build a 7 million euro state of the art training complex and do strength and conditioning like those dastardly Dublin players do. :rolleyes:

WesternZulu · 05-05-2021 10:46am

cson wrote: »

People were saying the same about hurling when Kilkenny were on the drive for five and now its incredibly competitive. These things are cyclical and another team will beat Dublin again.

KK have a population of 100k though, they were never going to go on indefinitely.

Dublin have a population 15 times of that so I think it's a bit disingenuous to say these things a cyclical and compare Dublin's dominance to KK's.

Boom__Boom · 05-05-2021 4:21pm

WesternZulu wrote: »

KK have a population of 100k though, they were never going to go on indefinitely.

Dublin have a population 15 times of that so I think it's a bit disingenuous to say these things a cyclical and compare Dublin's dominance to KK's.

In 2009 Kilkenny had 415 registered hurling teams.
In 2009 Dublin had 637 registered hurling teams.

Last year Kilkenny had 458 registered hurling teams.
Last year Dublin had 1,141 registered hurling teams.

That's an increase of 43 hurling teams in Kilkenny versus an increase of 451 hurling teams in Dublin.

In 2009 the breakdown for Kilkenny was
- 86 adult teams
- 293 underage teams
- 36 U21 teams

In 2009 the breakdown for Dublin was
- 108 adult teams
- 507 underage teams
- 22 U21 teams

In 2020 the breakdown for Kilkenny was
- 91 adult teams
- 329 underage teams
- 38 U20 teams

In 2020 the breakdown for Dublin was
- 128 adult teams
- 992 underage teams
- 21 U20 teams

The big takeaway is the increase in underage hurling teams in Dublin - from 507 in 2009 to 992 in 2020. The number of adult hurling teams only increased by 20 over the same time period. Inevitably over the next 10/15 years, this growth in underage numbers is going to feed through at senior level.

Kilkenny were the county with the 10th highest increase in teams over this time period. 6 counties had less teams in 2020 compared to 2009 and another 13 counties only increased their number of hurling teams by 20 or less.

This is the current situation and doesn't take into account the fact the population of Dublin is predicted to increase more than any other county over the next few years.

MayoAreMagic · 06-05-2021 3:51pm

cson wrote: »

People were saying the same about hurling when Kilkenny were on the drive for five and now its incredibly competitive. These things are cyclical and another team will beat Dublin again.

In fairness, this has been proven to be inaccurate. Since 2011, the average age of the one off dublin team has gone down, not up. That alone disproves the whole spiel. I dont think anyone believes the comparison with kilkenny.

I dont understand how people think that dublin are going to come back into the pack. Post-unfair funding for say the last 10 years, they have opened a massive gap. They are still getting the unfair treatment, so anyone who thinks the gap is going to now reduce is in for a shock. That simply doesnt make any sense. It is either going to dtay as it is or get bigger again.
Even if they do get beaten at some stage, so what? That already happened in 2014 ffs - nothing changed. They just come back and win another 8-9 of the next 10 all irelands.

However, the real issue here is, if people are too afraid to grasp the nettle before this eventuality comes to pass, the sport could be irreversibly damaged.

callaway92 · 06-05-2021 4:02pm

Just on this.

Have experience in trying to sell Data/Analysis packages to Intercounty and Club teams and the unfortunate answer so often is ‘not enough funds’.

It comes down to money dispersion moreso than population I think.

For other teams to step up to the next level, they need to invest (and they need the money to do that) in analysis and scouting.

Teams forking out fortunes for Fitness Data (STATSports) for example and yet their performance analysis expenditure is minimal.

Have spoken to Teams themselves and GAA/Camogie Association/LGFA and it’s always the same answer about money.

MayoAreMagic · 06-05-2021 4:11pm

The Golden Miller wrote: »

This thread still going. Whats left to discuss? Football died in 2011, the year this Dublin team reaped the benefits of huge funding from the government. On top of that, it drew more fans in the capital, drawing in bigger sponsorship. The playing field is no longer even.

I remember on Newstalk some lad involved in Galway GAA was on. Galway beat Dublin underage in the All-Ireland. Next thing is the Dublin footballers go senior and are fast tracked onto professional strength and conditioning programmes. They become well oiled robots, conditioned machines. How can anyone compete with that?

What's really incredible is the fact Kerry nearly do regardless. Such is the freakish nature of their mystical talent conveyor belt, they can compete and the only ones who will be able to consistently. What we seen 2 years ago was conditioned professionals who played against amateurs. Kerry had to make the difference on all Dublin's advantages with raw talent alone, and they nearly did.

So most counties do have a right to complain about Dublin's advantages, except one, and that's Meath. This once proud county has become an embarrassment. Watching their manager cry about Dublin's advantages on live TV was pathetic. Are Dublin's advantages why Meath are so bad. Why can team's like Mayo do far better than Meath. When Meath get their house in order, and do the best they can do and still come up short, then they can complain. Meath never did excuses. Play hard, fight tooth and nail. Shake hands. No whinging

But they are miles off even being the best team they can be. In GAA, Meath were once the embodiment of heart, fight, spirit, determination, presence, hardness, toughness, unwavering belief and a cast iron will, the willingness to run through walls for the cause. Now look at them. Regardless of talent, if Dublin beat them, they should be coming off battered and bruised, made work for every ball. What Meath player can say they left everything on the field v Dublin in the last 10 years of so? A once proud county now seen as small and weak, scared and with no bottle. Scared to even kick the ball over the bar right in front of goal v Dublin. It's actually harder to kick 25 wide's than score 4 pints in a game. Something gone seriously seriously wrong in their psychology and bottle, because they have talent. They look like clueless children playing men v Dublin

Id agree that football died in 2011. It isnt a sporting contest any longer. The gaa sold out, but that is what you get when people on a wage make decisions that can potentially improve that wage. The sense of right and wrong gets swallowed up by that. For people to make objective decisions they need to not have skin in the game.
Re meath, I think the same can be said of most counties. Personally I think their is an apathy developing in meath to the gaa which has its roots in the scenario with their neighbours. This is evident throughout leinster I feel. If this is let develop across the country, this will have a seriously negative effect on the game in the future

FileNotFound · 06-05-2021 4:11pm

I always look at dublins dominance and then consider that if GAA returned to knowckout champs and Leinster could field some actual competition we may reduce the year on year dominance that has appeared.

While the population issue will mean that dublin will always have an edge - combined with the higher funding that has been given for years (in fairness to build the game in dublin and has worked) and so on. I do think the fact that the likes of Meath and Kildare being utterly useless at the time of dublins dominance hasn't helped.

I do think that with knockout football - and more competition through the whole thing for them, we could see them lose the odd game and thus have new comp winners. Mayo came close and did so for quiet some time with much less population.

I see Kerry with their up and coming team and think we could see them win some yet. Sadly its only been Mayo and Kerry to compete with them - even the northern teams are a shadow of a few years ago.

While it cannot fully be compared to KK dominance it definitely can be ended, i do think knockout champs is essential to end it though, back door for dublin and we will see them come back even if a team gets to them.

Kildare has a booming populations along with Wicklow - the game needs to be developed in other areas now - mass funding into counties outside dublin and as dublin seem to have plenty of cash a big cut for them to help pay for this other cash injection.

MayoAreMagic · 06-05-2021 4:19pm

FileNotFound wrote: »

While it cannot fully be compared to KK dominance it definitely can be ended, i do think knockout champs is essential to end it though, back door for dublin and we will see them come back even if a team gets to them.

What constitutes it ending? A one off loss? That happened in 2014. That doesnt constitute ending as far as I am concerned

FileNotFound · 06-05-2021 5:04pm

MayoAreMagic wrote: »

What constitutes it ending? A one off loss? That happened in 2014. That doesnt constitute ending as far as I am concerned

The reality is that Dublin will most likely be there or there abouts year on year. And will win more than others due to the undeniable facts that they have so many to choose from and its hugely popular.

As a Mayo supporter I have loved journeys over the last few years and truly hated the ends.

I guess that them not winning one is a start and then go from there. There is no fix that won't take years.

But knockout football with more competition along the route is at least a start - Dublin get into the latter stages by default in leinster.

Football is in the doldrums at a time when dublin are ascendant. Think back a few years (pre dublin) and you had Cork, Kerry, Armagh, Donegal, Meath, Kildare, Mayo, Galway all with actual quality. I hate to say it but Kerry might be the only competition this year - and given what happened last year they are far from infallible.

Major investment in counties around the country and back to knockout and maybe even kill the provincial game is the only thing i can see. Open draw where dublin could have to beat 3 big teams on path to a final.

I'll be honest I am at a loss as to a fix, decided to enjoy the journey more instead. Lets face it mayo give fans heart attacks multiple times on a campaign, get your blood pumping and give us endless debate. How sad it must be never to feel any of this for your team?

MayoAreMagic · 06-05-2021 6:10pm

FileNotFound wrote: »

The reality is that Dublin will most likely be there or there abouts year on year. And will win more than others due to the undeniable facts that they have so many to choose from and its hugely popular.

As a Mayo supporter I have loved journeys over the last few years and truly hated the ends.

I guess that them not winning one is a start and then go from there. There is no fix that won't take years.

But knockout football with more competition along the route is at least a start - Dublin get into the latter stages by default in leinster.

Football is in the doldrums at a time when dublin are ascendant. Think back a few years (pre dublin) and you had Cork, Kerry, Armagh, Donegal, Meath, Kildare, Mayo, Galway all with actual quality. I hate to say it but Kerry might be the only competition this year - and given what happened last year they are far from infallible.

Major investment in counties around the country and back to knockout and maybe even kill the provincial game is the only thing i can see. Open draw where dublin could have to beat 3 big teams on path to a final.

I'll be honest I am at a loss as to a fix, decided to enjoy the journey more instead. Lets face it mayo give fans heart attacks multiple times on a campaign, get your blood pumping and give us endless debate. How sad it must be never to feel any of this for your team?

I get what you say but objectively speaking, should a team that was in the top 2-3 teams for the entireity of the last decade be looking to gain their wins from philosophical approachs such as you have described? Like is that the future of football, be it mayo or kerry or anyone? Surely there is an issue there? If that is a reality then the setup of the game isnt delivering. At the end of the day, it isnt about dublin really, it is about the state of the game and how that bodes for the future. Truth be told, mayo wont build teams that good every few years. Ditto for donegal and tyrone. So in the future, when they have fallen back into the pack, what then? Dublin v kerry 90% or the time, with dublin winning in 90% of those meetings? An odd fruitless burst from someone else every so often? Im not sure there is much anyone can be philosophical about in that scenario

StupidLikeAFox · 25-05-2021 5:56pm

This is rearing its head again:
Twenty counties to debate 'Dublin GAA’s unfair funding advantage' https://the42.ie/5447574

Its hard to justify giving so much financial support to a county that can comfortably earn a surplus of €2.7m

MayoAreMagic · 26-05-2021 9:00am

StupidLikeAFox wrote: »

This is rearing its head again:
Twenty counties to debate 'Dublin GAA’s unfair funding advantage' https://the42.ie/5447574

Its hard to justify giving so much financial support to a county that can comfortably earn a surplus of €2.7m

Great to see some people who actually care about the gaa as a whole trying to help it.

You hear this spiel about the money all going into grass roots and not the intercounty team, but that is painfully short-sighted, and deliberately so in many cases from what I can see.
Surely the high levels of coaching that the likes of ocallaghan have recieved throughout his youth has improved him as a player? Isnt he now a better player than the ocallaghan we would have seen without coaching? Wasnt that the whole point of it? Ditto for bugler, kilkenny and pretty much any player under 30.
If it hasnt then it that means the whole investment in grassroots policy was a complete waste of money by dublin.

You cant have it every way.

gourcuff · 17-06-2021 10:28am

isn't it about time the home advantage issue is tackled?

i cant think of any tournament in the world where one team plays every game at home.

Its demonstrably unfair, regardless of the mental gymnastics some people go through to justify it.

I am sure Kerry would love an entire championship run played in Killarney every year.

Capacity arguments are nonsense, there is no sport where a bigger capacity gives one team home advantage in every game.

Lost Ormond · 17-06-2021 10:34am

gourcuff wrote: »

isn't it about time the home advantage issue is tackled?

i cant think of any tournament in the world where one team plays every game at home.

Its demonstrably unfair, regardless of the mental gymnastics some people go through to justify it.

I am sure Kerry would love an entire championship run played in Killarney every year.

Capacity arguments are nonsense, there is no sport where a bigger capacity gives one team home advantage in every game.

Leinster counties keep voting/moving games to CP though. Leinster have tried to play quarter at least outside of Dublin and when you get to the latter stages of the competition then how many games do you move and at what stage do you move games?

gourcuff · 17-06-2021 10:43am

Lost Ormond wrote: »

Leinster counties keep voting/moving games to CP though. Leinster have tried to play quarter at least outside of Dublin and when you get to the latter stages of the competition then how many games do you move and at what stage do you move games?

you play the final at croker.

Class stadium in Cork could be used if dublin reach the semi final.

Basic principle of any competition should be fairness.

FileNotFound · 17-06-2021 3:58pm

In Fairness this would be the year of all years to run a championship that utilises stadiums other than croker.

Especially with fan limitations. Many of the alternative grounds would surely be cheaper to open and run.

I don't expect the change any time (now or in the future) as I always understood the official line was Dublin GAA's home is not croker, but they essentially rent or book the stadium when free which is allowed.

Lost Ormond · 17-06-2021 4:01pm

gourcuff wrote: »

you play the final at croker.

Class stadium in Cork could be used if dublin reach the semi final.

Basic principle of any competition should be fairness.

Dubs get crowds for most games above capacity of any other stadium so very hard to justify most games at latter stage of competition being moved but earlier games should be moved.
The problem is with Kildare, Meath stadiums not good enough/big enough

How exactly are you defining fairness anyway?

FileNotFound · 17-06-2021 4:06pm

Lost Ormond wrote: »

Dubs get crowds for most games above capacity of any other stadium so very hard to justify most games at latter stage of competition being moved but earlier games should be moved.
The problem is with Kildare, Meath stadiums not good enough/big enough

How exactly are you defining fairness anyway?

The ease of being local gives a basic advantage, the continuous use of Croker where other teams may see it only once in a blue mean gives a basic advantage.

Your argument about fan numbers is valid and at the moment Dublin have no competition in Leinster no matter where the games are played to be fair.

From a fans view, every other county has to come to Dublin on any big day - easy to see how that might be seen as unfair.

Lost Ormond · 17-06-2021 4:12pm

FileNotFound wrote: »

The ease of being local gives a basic advantage, the continuous use of Croker where other teams may see it only once in a blue mean gives a basic advantage.

Your argument about fan numbers is valid and at the moment Dublin have no competition in Leinster no matter where the games are played to be fair.

From a fans view, every other county has to come to Dublin on any big day - easy to see how that might be seen as unfair.

Except countys keep voting to keep Dublin in CP. County coaches, players want to play in Croke Park.
It doesnt make sense to move Dublin for latter games in the competition

FileNotFound · 17-06-2021 4:16pm

Lost Ormond wrote: »

Except countys keep voting to keep Dublin in CP. County coaches, players want to play in Croke Park.
It doesnt make sense to move Dublin for latter games in the competition

Financially you are right.

I guess in an amateur game do finances mean more than Fairness?

Personally I believe that an equal playing field in the GAA will be found after 10 yrs + investment around the country. The GAA had great success in growing tha game in Dublin, this however has coincided with the death of it elsewhere - that needs correcting more than anything else.

Lost Ormond · 17-06-2021 4:32pm

FileNotFound wrote: »

Financially you are right.

I guess in an amateur game do finances mean more than Fairness?

Personally I believe that an equal playing field in the GAA will be found after 10 yrs + investment around the country. The GAA had great success in growing tha game in Dublin, this however has coincided with the death of it elsewhere - that needs correcting more than anything else.

The counties themselves keep voting to keep games in Croke Park. They see it as fair as its playing in the national stadium etc
You will never have an equal playing field regardless of investment

FileNotFound · 17-06-2021 4:45pm

Lost Ormond wrote: »

The counties themselves keep voting to keep games in Croke Park. They see it as fair as its playing in the national stadium etc
You will never have an equal playing field regardless of investment

Fair is always relative.

Population will ensure a divide always exists, that doesn't excuse the lack of investment around the country.

When you compare the likes of Ballyboden/St Endas setup to any large town around the country the differences are somewhat shocking.

Maintaining buy in at club level across the nation is an issue. Can't say I have the fix, but helping to keep and get more people interested is a start.

When i say this I don't even mean Dublin and Kerry etc, Kildare now has a larger population than before but cannot field an even half decent team, we look at wicklow as a small county but as more people live there are the clubs seeing the same increase?

I always imagine that Knockout football with some actual competition in leinster might actually help solve the issue.

Galway hurling in connaught had more competition than Football in Leinster has right now...

Strumms · 17-06-2021 5:00pm

gourcuff wrote: »

isn't it about time the home advantage issue is tackled?

i cant think of any tournament in the world where one team plays every game at home.

Its demonstrably unfair, regardless of the mental gymnastics some people go through to justify it.

I am sure Kerry would love an entire championship run played in Killarney every year.

Capacity arguments are nonsense, there is no sport where a bigger capacity gives one team home advantage in every game.

If Pairc Chaoimh and Fitzgerald Stadium has suitable facilities to accommodate the demand, there would be no issues

Croke Park : 76,534
Fitzgerald Stadium : 38,000 (9000 seated)
Pairc Ui Chaoimh : 45,000

See what the Kerry and Cork lads say when they have to give up xx% of tickets to traveling supporters...

Lost Ormond · 17-06-2021 5:00pm

FileNotFound wrote: »

Fair is always relative.

Population will ensure a divide always exists, that doesn't excuse the lack of investment around the country.

When you compare the likes of Ballyboden/St Endas setup to any large town around the country the differences are somewhat shocking.

Maintaining buy in at club level across the nation is an issue. Can't say I have the fix, but helping to keep and get more people interested is a start.

Lack of investment from where though.
Brady Ham invest heavily in Kildare...
Ballyboden St Endas are one of the largest clubs in the country are they really comparable to clubs in large towns across the country. And there is several other clubs comparable to Boden across dublin
How will buy in at club level be affected here?

When i say this I don't even mean Dublin and Kerry etc, Kildare now has a larger population than before but cannot field an even half decent team, we look at wicklow as a small county but as more people live there are the clubs seeing the same increase?

I always imagine that Knockout football with some actual competition in leinster might actually help solve the issue.

Wicklow are a small county though or at least always been a very weak gaelic county. Population increase doesnt always mean you will be stronger.

Galway hurling in connaught had more competition than Football in Leinster has right now...

well thats just nonsense and completely false.

ArielAtom · 17-06-2021 6:18pm

FileNotFound wrote: »

Fair is always relative.

Population will ensure a divide always exists, that doesn't excuse the lack of investment around the country.

When you compare the likes of Ballyboden/St Endas setup to any large town around the country the differences are somewhat shocking.

Maintaining buy in at club level across the nation is an issue. Can't say I have the fix, but helping to keep and get more people interested is a start.

When i say this I don't even mean Dublin and Kerry etc, Kildare now has a larger population than before but cannot field an even half decent team, we look at wicklow as a small county but as more people live there are the clubs seeing the same increase?

I always imagine that Knockout football with some actual competition in leinster might actually help solve the issue.

Galway hurling in connaught had more competition than Football in Leinster has right now...

You have quoted Boden as an example, would you like to list their setup? I’d be very interested in what they have.

salmocab · 17-06-2021 6:41pm

ArielAtom wrote: »

You have quoted Boden as an example, would you like to list their setup? I’d be very interested in what they have.

The glib answer is they have huge numbers which means it’s run like a machine as they can afford proper administration. It’s a major factor in running such a big organisation. Their pitches are spread over several miles some council, some private. It takes a lot to organise numbers spread out and getting the money in from people who may not be in the clubhouse from one end of the year to the other.

Boom__Boom · 17-06-2021 7:26pm

gourcuff wrote: »

isn't it about time the home advantage issue is tackled?

i cant think of any tournament in the world where one team plays every game at home.

Its demonstrably unfair, regardless of the mental gymnastics some people go through to justify it.

I am sure Kerry would love an entire championship run played in Killarney every year.

Capacity arguments are nonsense, there is no sport where a bigger capacity gives one team home advantage in every game.

When Fitzgerald Stadium was first built back in the 30s there was serious discusions about the All-Ireland being held there every year. It did hold the 1937 hurling final.

Also in terms of home advantage - since the championship began Kerry have only lost 10 championship matches in Kerry. The last year Kerry lost a championship match played in Kerry was 1995.

Rosita · 17-06-2021 8:25pm

[QUOTE=Boom__Boom;117448330

Also in terms of home advantage - since the championship began Kerry have only lost 10 championship matches in Kerry. The last year Kerry lost a championship match played in Kerry was 1995.[/QUOTE]

This is a bit like the fuss made about Kilkenny not having lost in championship at Nowlan Park in 60 years or so when Wexford beat them a few years ago. It was quickly followed up by a Galway win at the same venue. The reality was that they very rarely played a championship match there which was a real danger anyway. When they did under the round robin losses followed.

Back in the day there was a fuss made about Páirc Uí Chaoimh for the Cork hurlers as if they couldn't be beaten there. But it was because Cork were good and weren't easily beaten anywhere. They have since been beaten there several times in the Munster championship so it looks like it wasn't the venue which was the key ingredient.

On the other hand we heard little about Dublin footballers' home advantage in Croke Park until they started winning habitually. It only became an advantage then it appears.

Kerry have played a few qualifiers in Killarney but in reality the only regular championship game that might threaten them in Killarney is Cork. Cork have drawn 5 out of the 13 times they have played there since 1995 so Kerry have lived on the edge at times.

In fact Kerry have a better record against Cork in Croke Park (won 6, drew 1) in championship which makes you wonder about home advantage.

My point is not that Kerry have not lost in Killarney since 1995 but when you drill down it's not such an impressive record of performance that the drawing of conclusions about home advantage is automatic.

They really have not been tested regularly enough there by top class (potential All Ireland winning, at Kerry's own level) opposition and when Cork have been good (which has been less so in the last decade) they have done well in Killarney. It seems to me that Kerry have achieved little in Killarney they wouldn't have achieved at any other ground given their opposition.

FileNotFound · 17-06-2021 9:44pm

Lost Ormond wrote: »

Lack of investment from where though.
Brady Ham invest heavily in Kildare...
Ballyboden St Endas are one of the largest clubs in the country are they really comparable to clubs in large towns across the country. And there is several other clubs comparable to Boden across dublin
How will buy in at club level be affected here?

Wicklow are a small county though or at least always been a very weak gaelic county. Population increase doesnt always mean you will be stronger.

well thats just nonsense and completely false.

I think you are misunderstanding me a bit.

I am not having a go at the Dublin club (clubs based on what you say) or the county it's actually the opposite. Ballyboden has a catchment population equivalent to most large towns so why are they so much bigger than other clubs? I think its because its a nice setup, multiple pitches, separate ladies and gents facilities, all weather setup, having the bar and gym.
Its a great facility which helps get kids in and keep them in, the more of this the better the county will be in years to come.
Across the country clubs are limited, 1 pitch shared across all age groups, both sports and both male and female teams. Lucky to get a hot shower in many of the community centres used as clubhouses.
Limited investment provides the pitch to play on but doesn't help grow the sport in a time when more kids play computer games than real games.

That was my point, more people is not equaling more GAA players, that takes time money and investment to make happen. Money was pumped into Dublin during their non existant times and it worked and created the now. Same needs to happen elsewhere.

Well I mean Dublin will have no competition from a leinster team which is the same as when galway had no competition from any connaght hurling team. Dublins second team in second gear code win a provincial now.

salmocab · 18-06-2021 6:35pm

FileNotFound wrote: »

I think you are misunderstanding me a bit.

I am not having a go at the Dublin club (clubs based on what you say) or the county it's actually the opposite. Ballyboden has a catchment population equivalent to most large towns so why are they so much bigger than other clubs? I think its because its a nice setup, multiple pitches, separate ladies and gents facilities, all weather setup, having the bar and gym.
Its a great facility which helps get kids in and keep them in, the more of this the better the county will be in years to come.

Oddly I’m not really sure the kids get much benefit of the actual facilities. Some of the underage girls teams use public pitches in a park near my house, the pitches aren’t great but not terrible, they are I’d say 2.5 miles from the clubhouse. They turn up in their gear and straight off afterwards. It seems to be mainly younger girls that use those pitches and I assume in bad weather they do get to use the Astro a bit but being so spread out must make it difficult to make everyone feel part of the club.

gourcuff · 21-06-2021 11:20am

again more mental gymnastics to justify the absurd and ridiculous structure of the all ireland championship

apparently now home advantage is not an advantage...

wembley is the best stadium in england, tottenham were using it for home games, dublin logic suggests tottenham should have got to play all their games there ... what about the poor spurs fan who wont get to attend games in the likes of bournemouth with only 11k capacity??...

its clearly a ridiculous argument. not everyone will get to attend every games, sometimes stadiums will be oversubscribed for big games, but thats a much better situation that one team (who already have a myriad of advantages) getting to play the entire championship in their home ground..

p.s if croke park isnt a home ground , i assume when kerry play in tralee its not a home game in the league... same logic surely?

RoyalCelt · 03-07-2021 4:04pm

Dublin getting a big win over Galway today in the hurling and are now back in the final. Like their 2019 win over Galway it was at home. Last time in Parnell Park this time in croker. Home advantage helps but Dublin are a solid hurling team home or away. The funding is working.

ArielAtom · 03-07-2021 4:11pm

RoyalCelt wrote: »

Dublin getting a big win over Galway today in the hurling and are now back in the final. Like their 2019 win over Galway it was at home. Last time in Parnell Park this time in croker. Home advantage helps but Dublin are a solid hurling team home or away. The funding is working.

Absolute garbage. Every Galway fan was rubbing their hands a getting Dublin in Croker.

RoyalCelt · 03-07-2021 6:24pm

ArielAtom wrote: »

Absolute garbage. Every Galway fan was rubbing their hands a getting Dublin in Croker.

I used to rub my hands as a meath man at the thought of playing Dublin in croker.. Doesn't mean Dublin didn't have the home town advantage that would have been the difference on a few occasions.

beggars_bush · 03-07-2021 7:30pm

Still remember Roscommon beating Dublin in Parnell park around 2002. Thry wouldn't get near them in Croker

ArielAtom · 03-07-2021 9:06pm

RoyalCelt wrote: »

I used to rub my hands as a meath man at the thought of playing Dublin in croker.. Doesn't mean Dublin didn't have the home town advantage that would have been the difference on a few occasions.

A long time ago in fairness.

03-07-2021 10:12pm

Boom__Boom · 03-07-2021 10:22pm

RoyalCelt wrote: »

Dublin getting a big win over Galway today in the hurling and are now back in the final. Like their 2019 win over Galway it was at home. Last time in Parnell Park this time in croker. Home advantage helps but Dublin are a solid hurling team home or away. The funding is working.

The recent Leinster title Dublin won was their 5th Leinster U21/U20 in 14 years.
In the previous 43 years of the competition, Dublin had won 2 Leinster U21s.

In terms of where Dublin hurling was compared to where Dublin football was, I think the number of Leinster titles in both codes gives a good insight of how far behind the hurlers were compared to the footballers.

The last Leinster Senior Hurling title won was 2013.
Prior to that, Dublin last won a Leinster Senior Hurling title in 1961.
Over the same time period Dublin won 26 Leinster Senior Football titles.

There might be setbacks along the way but it's very hard not to see Dublin winning Liam down the road.

Strumms · 04-07-2021 2:43am

RoyalCelt wrote: »

I used to rub my hands as a meath man at the thought of playing Dublin in croker.. Doesn't mean Dublin didn't have the home town advantage that would have been the difference on a few occasions.

Sure build a stadium in Meath that could accommodate a fair number of both sets of supporters... if it was an all Ireland semi in Croke Park, you’d be crying out to play in Croke Park, so you’d get enough tickets, but when you lose... Croke Pk is an unfair advantage...all of a sudden..can’t have it every way.

Rosita · 04-07-2021 8:27am

RoyalCelt wrote: »

I used to rub my hands as a meath man at the thought of playing Dublin in croker.. Doesn't mean Dublin didn't have the home town advantage that would have been the difference on a few occasions.

How do you work out the occasions on which Croke Park was "the difference" and the days it wasn't? Is it a standard formula e.g. if the defeat is less than 5 points it can't be that Dublin were better, it must be the venue. But if the margin is sufficiently large it has to be grudgingly accepted that the venue was irrelevant. It's just interesting that 'home advantage' was the difference only on a few occasions. What was it that made those occasions different?

04-07-2021 12:19pm

Strumms wrote: »

Sure build a stadium in Meath that could accommodate a fair number of both sets of supporters... if it was an all Ireland semi in Croke Park, you’d be crying out to play in Croke Park, so you’d get enough tickets, but when you lose... Croke Pk is an unfair advantage...all of a sudden..can’t have it every way.

Both can be true to be fair wanting to play barca at the nou camp doesn't mean they don't have an advantage there.

With regards the build a bigger stadium in Meath comment it's all gaa funded one of the big gripes here is dublins extra funding I'm.unsure what your trying.to.do.with that comment

Strumms · 04-07-2021 12:47pm

Diana Pitiful Sonar wrote: »

Both can be true to be fair wanting to play barca at the nou camp doesn't mean they don't have an advantage there.

With regards the build a bigger stadium in Meath comment it's all gaa funded one of the big gripes here is dublins extra funding I'm.unsure what your trying.to.do.with that comment

It’s not extra sorry, that myth has been debunked pages back...

Meath have put money into Pairc Tailteann over the last number of years, a new scoreboard and floodlights... wanting to host Dublin in the championship you need to think bigger then that. Can’t have it every way.

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