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The Dominance of Dublin GAA Mod warning post#1

seligehgit

Discussion of all matters relating to this contentious subject is welcome and the potential implications of same.This thread is solely for this purpose.

There appears to be a perception that the moderators are attempting to shut down discussion of this topic and direct same off to a low traffic stickied thread.Nothing could be further from the truth.Our sole motive was to confine discussion to a single thread and prevent cross thread posting which was adversely affecting the enjoyment of fellow posters.

Can we please keep posts civil and constructive in nature.

The Changes in the GAA-super thread is now for discussion of all other suggested reforms not relating to Dublin GAA.

Extra Mod Warning:
Right, a separate warning to both sides in this debate:
Firstly, any more mentioning of "financial doping" or any intimation that rules have been broken by Dublin or that Dublin have cheated are banned from now on. You can debate the issue of the funding that Dublin have received without resorting to that. There is zero evidence of it and posting about it will be considered trolling from here on in.

Secondly, this topic is, like it or not, a big talking point in gaelic football at the moment. You are more than welcome to argue your point, but posting in this thread to simply mock those on the other side or complaining about the topic is known as thread spoiling and is specifically banned in the charter (see point 8 here). No one is forcing you to click on this thread and no one is forcing you to post in it. If you don't like the topic, then don't post. It's as simple as that.

This thread is here so that all the discussion is in one place and it won't filter into other threads. This makes it easier to ignore for posters who don't really want to be involved in it. As a result, we haven't really been moderating it as severely as other threads. However, a number of posts recently from both sides are sailing too close to the wind and getting borderline personal. So please take a minute before you hit submit to ensure that your post won't fall foul of the rules. We'll have no hesitation in issuing cards and/or threadbans to posters who fail to heed this warning.

Please report any posts that you feel break the rules.

Any questions, please feel free to PM the mods.

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Boom__Boom

gourcuff wrote: »

isn't it about time the home advantage issue is tackled?

i cant think of any tournament in the world where one team plays every game at home.

Its demonstrably unfair, regardless of the mental gymnastics some people go through to justify it.

I am sure Kerry would love an entire championship run played in Killarney every year.

Capacity arguments are nonsense, there is no sport where a bigger capacity gives one team home advantage in every game.

When Fitzgerald Stadium was first built back in the 30s there was serious discusions about the All-Ireland being held there every year. It did hold the 1937 hurling final.

Also in terms of home advantage - since the championship began Kerry have only lost 10 championship matches in Kerry. The last year Kerry lost a championship match played in Kerry was 1995.

Rosita

[QUOTE=Boom__Boom;117448330

Also in terms of home advantage - since the championship began Kerry have only lost 10 championship matches in Kerry. The last year Kerry lost a championship match played in Kerry was 1995.[/QUOTE]

This is a bit like the fuss made about Kilkenny not having lost in championship at Nowlan Park in 60 years or so when Wexford beat them a few years ago. It was quickly followed up by a Galway win at the same venue. The reality was that they very rarely played a championship match there which was a real danger anyway. When they did under the round robin losses followed.

Back in the day there was a fuss made about Páirc Uí Chaoimh for the Cork hurlers as if they couldn't be beaten there. But it was because Cork were good and weren't easily beaten anywhere. They have since been beaten there several times in the Munster championship so it looks like it wasn't the venue which was the key ingredient.

On the other hand we heard little about Dublin footballers' home advantage in Croke Park until they started winning habitually. It only became an advantage then it appears.

Kerry have played a few qualifiers in Killarney but in reality the only regular championship game that might threaten them in Killarney is Cork. Cork have drawn 5 out of the 13 times they have played there since 1995 so Kerry have lived on the edge at times.

In fact Kerry have a better record against Cork in Croke Park (won 6, drew 1) in championship which makes you wonder about home advantage.

My point is not that Kerry have not lost in Killarney since 1995 but when you drill down it's not such an impressive record of performance that the drawing of conclusions about home advantage is automatic.

They really have not been tested regularly enough there by top class (potential All Ireland winning, at Kerry's own level) opposition and when Cork have been good (which has been less so in the last decade) they have done well in Killarney. It seems to me that Kerry have achieved little in Killarney they wouldn't have achieved at any other ground given their opposition.

FileNotFound

Lost Ormond wrote: »

Lack of investment from where though.
Brady Ham invest heavily in Kildare...
Ballyboden St Endas are one of the largest clubs in the country are they really comparable to clubs in large towns across the country. And there is several other clubs comparable to Boden across dublin
How will buy in at club level be affected here?

Wicklow are a small county though or at least always been a very weak gaelic county. Population increase doesnt always mean you will be stronger.

well thats just nonsense and completely false.

I think you are misunderstanding me a bit.

I am not having a go at the Dublin club (clubs based on what you say) or the county it's actually the opposite. Ballyboden has a catchment population equivalent to most large towns so why are they so much bigger than other clubs? I think its because its a nice setup, multiple pitches, separate ladies and gents facilities, all weather setup, having the bar and gym.
Its a great facility which helps get kids in and keep them in, the more of this the better the county will be in years to come.
Across the country clubs are limited, 1 pitch shared across all age groups, both sports and both male and female teams. Lucky to get a hot shower in many of the community centres used as clubhouses.
Limited investment provides the pitch to play on but doesn't help grow the sport in a time when more kids play computer games than real games.

That was my point, more people is not equaling more GAA players, that takes time money and investment to make happen. Money was pumped into Dublin during their non existant times and it worked and created the now. Same needs to happen elsewhere.

Well I mean Dublin will have no competition from a leinster team which is the same as when galway had no competition from any connaght hurling team. Dublins second team in second gear code win a provincial now.

salmocab

FileNotFound wrote: »

I think you are misunderstanding me a bit.

I am not having a go at the Dublin club (clubs based on what you say) or the county it's actually the opposite. Ballyboden has a catchment population equivalent to most large towns so why are they so much bigger than other clubs? I think its because its a nice setup, multiple pitches, separate ladies and gents facilities, all weather setup, having the bar and gym.
Its a great facility which helps get kids in and keep them in, the more of this the better the county will be in years to come.

Oddly I’m not really sure the kids get much benefit of the actual facilities. Some of the underage girls teams use public pitches in a park near my house, the pitches aren’t great but not terrible, they are I’d say 2.5 miles from the clubhouse. They turn up in their gear and straight off afterwards. It seems to be mainly younger girls that use those pitches and I assume in bad weather they do get to use the Astro a bit but being so spread out must make it difficult to make everyone feel part of the club.

gourcuff

again more mental gymnastics to justify the absurd and ridiculous structure of the all ireland championship

apparently now home advantage is not an advantage...

wembley is the best stadium in england, tottenham were using it for home games, dublin logic suggests tottenham should have got to play all their games there ... what about the poor spurs fan who wont get to attend games in the likes of bournemouth with only 11k capacity??...

its clearly a ridiculous argument. not everyone will get to attend every games, sometimes stadiums will be oversubscribed for big games, but thats a much better situation that one team (who already have a myriad of advantages) getting to play the entire championship in their home ground..

p.s if croke park isnt a home ground , i assume when kerry play in tralee its not a home game in the league... same logic surely?

RoyalCelt

Dublin getting a big win over Galway today in the hurling and are now back in the final. Like their 2019 win over Galway it was at home. Last time in Parnell Park this time in croker. Home advantage helps but Dublin are a solid hurling team home or away. The funding is working.

ArielAtom

RoyalCelt wrote: »

Dublin getting a big win over Galway today in the hurling and are now back in the final. Like their 2019 win over Galway it was at home. Last time in Parnell Park this time in croker. Home advantage helps but Dublin are a solid hurling team home or away. The funding is working.

Absolute garbage. Every Galway fan was rubbing their hands a getting Dublin in Croker.

RoyalCelt

ArielAtom wrote: »

Absolute garbage. Every Galway fan was rubbing their hands a getting Dublin in Croker.

I used to rub my hands as a meath man at the thought of playing Dublin in croker.. Doesn't mean Dublin didn't have the home town advantage that would have been the difference on a few occasions.

beggars_bush

Still remember Roscommon beating Dublin in Parnell park around 2002. Thry wouldn't get near them in Croker

ArielAtom

RoyalCelt wrote: »

I used to rub my hands as a meath man at the thought of playing Dublin in croker.. Doesn't mean Dublin didn't have the home town advantage that would have been the difference on a few occasions.

A long time ago in fairness.

[Deleted User]

Boom__Boom

RoyalCelt wrote: »

Dublin getting a big win over Galway today in the hurling and are now back in the final. Like their 2019 win over Galway it was at home. Last time in Parnell Park this time in croker. Home advantage helps but Dublin are a solid hurling team home or away. The funding is working.

The recent Leinster title Dublin won was their 5th Leinster U21/U20 in 14 years.
In the previous 43 years of the competition, Dublin had won 2 Leinster U21s.

In terms of where Dublin hurling was compared to where Dublin football was, I think the number of Leinster titles in both codes gives a good insight of how far behind the hurlers were compared to the footballers.

The last Leinster Senior Hurling title won was 2013.
Prior to that, Dublin last won a Leinster Senior Hurling title in 1961.
Over the same time period Dublin won 26 Leinster Senior Football titles.

There might be setbacks along the way but it's very hard not to see Dublin winning Liam down the road.

Strumms

RoyalCelt wrote: »

I used to rub my hands as a meath man at the thought of playing Dublin in croker.. Doesn't mean Dublin didn't have the home town advantage that would have been the difference on a few occasions.

Sure build a stadium in Meath that could accommodate a fair number of both sets of supporters... if it was an all Ireland semi in Croke Park, you’d be crying out to play in Croke Park, so you’d get enough tickets, but when you lose... Croke Pk is an unfair advantage...all of a sudden..can’t have it every way.

Rosita

RoyalCelt wrote: »

I used to rub my hands as a meath man at the thought of playing Dublin in croker.. Doesn't mean Dublin didn't have the home town advantage that would have been the difference on a few occasions.

How do you work out the occasions on which Croke Park was "the difference" and the days it wasn't? Is it a standard formula e.g. if the defeat is less than 5 points it can't be that Dublin were better, it must be the venue. But if the margin is sufficiently large it has to be grudgingly accepted that the venue was irrelevant. It's just interesting that 'home advantage' was the difference only on a few occasions. What was it that made those occasions different?

[Deleted User]

Strumms wrote: »

Sure build a stadium in Meath that could accommodate a fair number of both sets of supporters... if it was an all Ireland semi in Croke Park, you’d be crying out to play in Croke Park, so you’d get enough tickets, but when you lose... Croke Pk is an unfair advantage...all of a sudden..can’t have it every way.

Both can be true to be fair wanting to play barca at the nou camp doesn't mean they don't have an advantage there.

With regards the build a bigger stadium in Meath comment it's all gaa funded one of the big gripes here is dublins extra funding I'm.unsure what your trying.to.do.with that comment

Strumms

nerd69 wrote: »

Both can be true to be fair wanting to play barca at the nou camp doesn't mean they don't have an advantage there.

With regards the build a bigger stadium in Meath comment it's all gaa funded one of the big gripes here is dublins extra funding I'm.unsure what your trying.to.do.with that comment

It’s not extra sorry, that myth has been debunked pages back...

Meath have put money into Pairc Tailteann over the last number of years, a new scoreboard and floodlights... wanting to host Dublin in the championship you need to think bigger then that. Can’t have it every way.

Enquiring

Boom__Boom wrote: »

The recent Leinster title Dublin won was their 5th Leinster U21/U20 in 14 years.
In the previous 43 years of the competition, Dublin had won 2 Leinster U21s.

In terms of where Dublin hurling was compared to where Dublin football was, I think the number of Leinster titles in both codes gives a good insight of how far behind the hurlers were compared to the footballers.

The last Leinster Senior Hurling title won was 2013.
Prior to that, Dublin last won a Leinster Senior Hurling title in 1961.
Over the same time period Dublin won 26 Leinster Senior Football titles.

There might be setbacks along the way but it's very hard not to see Dublin winning Liam down the road.

With a Dublin club winning 2 All Ireland club titles as well, you can see how much the increased funding has impacted hurling in Dublin. A complete transformation.

Dublin ladies footballers added to their large title haul recently also. Again, a huge change post funding.

Dublin senior footballers played their first away game in the Leinster championship since 2006 today. It took 15 years! They are on their way to winning 7 All Ireland's in a row.

Just to remind everyone, this all comes from Dublin GAA receiving millions more in development funding than every other county since 2002. We're almost at the 2 decade anniversary of that disgraceful decision to segregate public and GAA funds for a one county specific program.

Rosita

[QUOTE=Enquiring;117589241

We're almost at the 2 decade anniversary of that disgraceful decision to segregate public and GAA funds for a one county specific program.[/QUOTE]

Hopefully the wet pubs will be open soon so the anniversary can be marked.

ArielAtom

I’m not sure that some posters have grasped the facts that is was sports Ireland’s funding and not the GAA. But hey, let them live in their own little universe. I do like the idea of the wet pub celebration.

StupidLikeAFox

ArielAtom wrote: »

I’m not sure that some posters have grasped the facts that is was sports Ireland’s funding and not the GAA. But hey, let them live in their own little universe. I do like the idea of the wet pub celebration.

So what? Its an unfair level of special treatment whether it's coming from the gaa or sport ireland.

StupidLikeAFox

Rosita wrote: »

How do you work out the occasions on which Croke Park was "the difference" and the days it wasn't? Is it a standard formula e.g. if the defeat is less than 5 points it can't be that Dublin were better, it must be the venue. But if the margin is sufficiently large it has to be grudgingly accepted that the venue was irrelevant. It's just interesting that 'home advantage' was the difference only on a few occasions. What was it that made those occasions different?

Home advantage is a home advantage. It doesn't matter if you win lose or draw, a team gains a benefit from playing 90% of their matches in the same stadium.

Rosita

StupidLikeAFox wrote: »

Home advantage is a home advantage. It doesn't matter if you win lose or draw, a team gains a benefit from playing 90% of their matches in the same stadium.

Hopefully the person I asked the question of will answer it. They implied it differed from day to day, so let's give them room to flesh that out.

Enquiring

ArielAtom wrote: »

I’m not sure that some posters have grasped the facts that is was sports Ireland’s funding and not the GAA. But hey, let them live in their own little universe. I do like the idea of the wet pub celebration.

It never ceases to amaze me how clueless some Dublin supporters are about their own counties finances. They defend the financial disparity without even knowing how much they have been receiving and for how long.

The Dublin only scheme has always included GAA funding. In fact the public funds administered through the sport council came after the scheme began. For a number of years Dublin were receiving 1 million from the sports council but half a million more from the GAA.

Enquiring

StupidLikeAFox wrote: »

Home advantage is a home advantage. It doesn't matter if you win lose or draw, a team gains a benefit from playing 90% of their matches in the same stadium.

Yes and for 10 years, 100% of their championship matches were played in their home pitch. Is there any competition in the whole world which includes one participant who gets far more funding than everyone else and plays 90% of their matches at home? It's so ludicrous when you think about it, you have to laugh.

Enquiring

Dublin hurlers playing in a Leinster final today after beating Galway in the semi final. Another reminder of the effect the money has had. From minnows to Leinster champions and competing at the top table.

odyssey06

https://boards.ie/discussion/comment/117625316#Comment_117625316

Dublin reached 2 Leinster finals and a League semi in the late 80s \ early 90s under Lar Foley.

Teams come and go. Where was the moneyball effect in the last few seasons since they won the League in 2011 and Leinster in 2013?

They should have been on an inexorable upwards curve due to the #moneyball# effect. But nope...

Guess the #moneyball# effect isn't much of an effect.

odyssey06

https://boards.ie/discussion/comment/117591764#Comment_117591764

Not remotely comparable to other sports. Croke Park isn't just the home of Dublin, it is the home of GAA.

The other teams playing in Croke Park, it's not like playing the Nou Camp... they'd played in Croke Park at underage competitions, semi finals and finals over the years. It's hardly terra incognito for them. That, and the games are played in a city with a large number of people living there from their home counties, and this is reflected in ticket allocations.

It's so ludicrous people trot out these tired arguments.

Enquiring

https://boards.ie/discussion/comment/117625350#Comment_117625350

Why should they be on inexorable upwards curve? Dublin hurlers were minnows prior to the funding, losing to Westmeath and Laois and getting regular beatings. That's completely changed post funding. Not just with the National league and Leinster title but with regularly competing at the top table. It all stemmed from the huge improvements in underage results and seeing the club game transformed. Money doesn't guarantee success but it goes a long way, especially in an amateur sport.

Enquiring

https://boards.ie/discussion/comment/117625372#Comment_117625372

It's ludicrous to point out that playing nearly every game at home is a huge advantage? Have a think about that.

odyssey06

https://boards.ie/discussion/comment/117625398#Comment_117625398

Yeah, how about responding to the actual points I made?

Dublin reached 2 Leinster finals and a League semi in the late 80s \ early 90s under Lar Foley.

Teams come and go. Where was the moneyball effect in the last few seasons since they won the League in 2011 and Leinster in 2013?

They should have been on an inexorable upwards curve due to the #moneyball# effect. But nope...

Weren't they beaten by Laois in recent memory? And getting hidings in championships?

Guess the #moneyball# effect isn't much of an effect.

Hurling teams are apparently meant to be locked into whatever status they have ever had and no teams can rise and fall ever.

Sure why would anyone ever bother playing it.