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When will the penny drop that we cannot keep building large roads?

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    #272
    cgcsb
    Registered Users Posts: 9,277 ✭✭✭cgcsb


    NeuralNetwork wrote: »
    The reason for that though is the city councils have no role in most people’s lives and aren’t seen to have any involvement in things like transit systems.

    I would suspect most people don’t even know or care who their local councillors are because they don’t have any role in anything meaningful.

    It also results in the likes of DCC being a talking shop for protest candidates wanting a platform as the council itself has no real role in anything particular and authority is wielded largely by the executive. So the result is you get people in there on student politics like rants, as that’s the level of power the chamber wields and the city’s residents are barely even aware of what it does as it has no relevance to them.

    Cork City Council found itself against a local media campaign claiming the city centre was impassable due to a few hours of pedestrian only access on a busy shopping street with 180+ stores that was orchestrated by a few loud voices. The net result of that was people assumed the city centre was disrupted and didn’t come in, when the reality was the opposite.

    But also on things like enforcement of bus lanes - even that isn’t a council issue and depends on the Gardai as, unlike almost everywhere else in the world there’s no local police. If you’re in a city on the continent or in the USA, the local police (answerable to city hall) enforce traffic rules. Here for some reason that’s a matter for the national parliament.

    We haven’t quite moved beyond the days when there used to be Dail Questions to the Minister for Posts & Telegraphs about the dial on the phone-box in Westmorland Street or the light bulb in the one on the South Mall.

    Perhaps you're right. I can see how councils being crap means more power taken off them and then they're crap because they have no power and that's a complete cycle. We'll see how Limerick goes but as it stands I think most people are reluctant to give real power to DCC to fly Palestinian flags and build white water rafting facilities.

    If we could abolish lord mayors I think that would help.


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    #273
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Cars are the only practical solution in many parts of Ireland. We need to make these as green as possible. Public transport is fine if you live in Dublin. It's shockingly bad even in Cork city, the bus timetable and even the real time tracking is a work of fiction with regular "ghost" buses that mysteriously are 1 minute away and never show up, and then others that show up with no indication at all. I am convinced there is a warp in the space time continuum that wanders around Cork city centre that swallows buses whole and spits them back out at random locations far from where they originally were.

    That happens in Dublin as well. There was a thread in the Software development forum and this came up. One poster was a developer on the real time planning app and he said it calculates based part on real time and part on statistics. :confused:

    But yeah, its not just cork where ghost busses exist.


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    #274
    Thelonious Monk
    Registered Users Posts: 13,818 ✭✭✭✭Thelonious Monk


    Just because you're in a one off growing vegetables doesn't mean you are sustainable. It's far more sustainable for people to be in blocks of apartments all buying vegetables grown commercially for the supermarket. These apartments can share services and take up less land and resources.
    I grow my own vegetables in the city but still go to Lidl etc just like one off house people.
    Do people really think it would be more sustainable for everyone to live in a one off and grow a few vegetables?
    Do people think everyone should be allowed build a one off if that's how they want to live? Or should we be moving away from allowing them?


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    #275
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 2,078 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Deleted User wrote: »
    That happens in Dublin as well. There was a thread in the Software development forum and this came up. One poster was a developer on the real time planning app and he said it calculates based part on real time and part on statistics. :confused:

    But yeah, its not just cork where ghost busses exist.

    First thing that's needed is a root and branch reform of our public sector transport service. Without that it's all a waste of time and money.


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    #276
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Thelonious Monk wrote: »
    Do people think everyone should be allowed build a one off if that's how they want to live? Or should we be moving away from allowing them?
    Not everyone and not even the majority want to live in one-off housing. Some do because it is the mode of living they want for themselves.
    Some others only wish to do so because the alternative is undesirable due to plain unaffordability, poor value for money of the "product" offered in denser housing solutions or social disadvantages of living living in high density housing such as anti-social activity within the developments or within the urban areas or simply access to better schools.
    Don't demonize the former who demand little of society and focus on the latter who would live in more urban locations if it afforded them a better quality of life than the one offered by living rurally.


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    #277
    Thelonious Monk
    Registered Users Posts: 13,818 ✭✭✭✭Thelonious Monk


    I mean, no one is going to take your one off from you or anyone else, and it's likely they'll just kept being built the way politics are here. But it's a disaster, planning wise. People living in close communities and sharing resources is what is best for the country overall, but we're a bit screwed in Ireland given the landscape is just peppered with one offs all over the place. Very hard to work around that kind of scattered population, which is why we will keep building roads and which is why we'll have more and more cars on the roads.
    The countryside is badly planned, but so are our cities.


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    #278
    NeuralNetwork
    Closed Accounts Posts: 727 ✭✭✭NeuralNetwork


    cgcsb wrote: »
    Perhaps you're right. I can see how councils being crap means more power taken off them and then they're crap because they have no power and that's a complete cycle. We'll see how Limerick goes but as it stands I think most people are reluctant to give real power to DCC to fly Palestinian flags and build white water rafting facilities.

    If we could abolish lord mayors I think that would help.

    Again though, the Limerick setup is a bit weird:

    A) It’s not a city mayor. Limerick County & City Council were merged. So you could well end up with the Mayor of Limerick driving policies that are geared towards rural Limerick rather than the city. (That wouldn’t been the case in Cork City as it’s not a merged authority.)

    B) There is no clarity in what the powers being given to the mayor will be. That was the main reason the plebiscite failed in Cork. Voters were being asked to vote on a policy that hadn’t been defined. There was no sense of what the Mayor would do, what powers they would have or anything else else and it turned into a storm about their pay rates.

    I mean it should have been focused on what powers were being devolved. If you had a discussion around say of public transit for example, it would have been a more useful in Cork.

    I remember voters not even being aware the plebiscite was on or what it was all about when they turned up in the polling station! The communication of it was an absolute mess.


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    #279
    Zebra3
    Registered Users Posts: 13,854 ✭✭✭✭Zebra3


    [Deleted User] wrote: »
    Not everyone and not even the majority want to live in one-off housing. Some do because it is the mode of living they want for themselves.
    Some others only wish to do so because the alternative is undesirable due to plain unaffordability, poor value for money of the "product" offered in denser housing solutions or social disadvantages of living living in high density housing such as anti-social activity within the developments or within the urban areas or simply access to better schools.
    Don't demonize the former who demand little of society and focus on the latter who would live in more urban locations if it afforded them a better quality of life than the one offered by living rurally.

    Who demand little of society?

    LOL as they say.


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    #280
    monument
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 14,072 Mod ✭✭✭✭monument


    Any more comments with personal attacks is going to get an infraction or ban. Seriously, there’s no need for it.

    — moderator
    [Deleted User] wrote: »
    Don't you think your time would be better spent agitating there.

    Any more posts like this and you’re getting a ban.


    — moderator
    cgcsb wrote: »
    I won't tolerate any further personal negative commentary on me, what I spend MY time on and general off topic personal abuse. You've been warned already, desist and move on.

    You can use the report a post feature next time — replies like this aren’t acceptable because they are viewed as backseat moding.

    — moderator


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    #281
    monument
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 14,072 Mod ✭✭✭✭monument


    Zebra3 wrote: »
    Who demand little of society?

    LOL as they say.

    I know the point you’re trying to make and that would be valid, but can everybody please drop the LoL type of comments? It’s not helpful in these types of threads where people are already up in arms.

    — moderator


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    #282
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    monument wrote: »
    Any more comments with personal attacks is going to get an infraction or ban. Seriously, there’s no need for it.

    — moderator



    Any more posts like this and you’re getting a ban.
    You need to explain that. I genuinely don't see what was offensive in that post if I've taken it at face value that the poster wants to improve the living environment of people. How could I have expressed that more succinctly and dispassionately?


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    #283
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Your solution is reliant on buses and cycling.

    Have you experienced using buses in Galway? Is it any wonder why people opt for cars?

    Yes I have. Now that I've sold my car I get around by trains, buses, bikes & walking.

    The GTS/Bus Connects program for Galway will see a spine that runs from one end of Galway to the other which will be used by all bus routes at some point in their route. This will allow for free flowing buses that will have designated lanes and priority measures at junctions allowing them to move before cars where pinch points exist.

    When it comes to cities like Galway, you have to decide whether you want to prioritize people or cars.

    If you choose people, then the hierarchy of users becomes this
    1st - Pedestrians
    2nd - Cyclists
    3rd - Buses
    4th - Freight & Taxi's
    5th - Private cars

    This hierarchy has been adopted as part of the National Planning Framework and is what the GTS strategy is built on.

    The roads in Galway are at or above capacity for cars. The population is set to increase by 50% over the next 25 years. It is physically impossible to get 50% more cars through the city roads.

    If you'd like to learn more and see why the ring road is pointless, take a look at some of the following posts here, here, here, here and here where I have already addressed many of the points raised in the last few posts here

    Also a good write up in a local paper here as to why this road will do more harm than good for Galway


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    #284
    Thelonious Monk
    Registered Users Posts: 13,818 ✭✭✭✭Thelonious Monk


    I think the ring road in Galway will happen eventually, and it will lead to more sprawl and car reliance. Can't see it going any other way, most people want to drive everywhere in this country.


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    #285
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Thelonious Monk wrote: »
    I think the ring road in Galway will happen eventually, and it will lead to more sprawl and car reliance. Can't see it going any other way, most people want to drive everywhere in this country.

    I think its been shown across the world at this stage now, that if you build the right infrastructure, people will use it

    Walking - Separate and safety measures at crossing points
    Bikes - Protected lanes & junctions
    Buses - Lanes & priority measures at junctions

    Coupled with de-prioritisation of private car travel and viable alternatives (Park & Stride + the above list) and you will see a change.

    Just requires the investment


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    #286
    monument
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 14,072 Mod ✭✭✭✭monument


    Deleted User wrote: »
    You need to explain that. I genuinely don't see what was offensive in that post if I've taken it at face value that the poster wants to improve the living environment of people. How could I have expressed that more succinctly and dispassionately?

    Ban for three days —

    For clarity: there’s been enough warnings now and you were asked just the other day to read the C&T charter before posting again. If you had read it you would have seen the bit about replying to moderation in-thread.

    — moderator


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    #287
    Thelonious Monk
    Registered Users Posts: 13,818 ✭✭✭✭Thelonious Monk


    Deleted User wrote: »
    I think its been shown across the world at this stage now, that if you build the right infrastructure, people will use it

    Walking - Separate and safety measures at crossing points
    Bikes - Protected lanes & junctions
    Buses - Lanes & priority measures at junctions

    Coupled with de-prioritisation of private car travel and viable alternatives (Park & Stride + the above list) and you will see a change.

    Just requires the investment

    I agree, but it wont happen, they'll build more roads, this is Ireland.


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    #288
    end of the road
    Registered Users Posts: 28,989 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    cgcsb wrote: »
    The early state followed a rural-centric model of development. Every boreen was paved and electricity was brought to every house but the cities were largely left lie. Big industrial cities were 'too English', we needed to dance at crossroads and sell eachother knitwear according DeValera.



    I'm apprehensive of that. DCC are a dusty bunch of anti progress loons who oppose development above 4 floors and even then are generally anti development, just look how they failed to handle the liffey cycle route, college green, the proposed docklands bridges, building heights, the anpr yellow box cameras, their housing stock, general maintenance etc. The state recently had to remove their power to set height limits because they couldn't come to a more mature attitude to development.

    Cork CC recently proved that they simply cannot even manage a short bus lane (Patrick Street). I don't see how giving these people more power solves anything.

    Limerick has recently moved to a directly elected mayor model, we'll see how that pans out but tbh I don't think local democracy works here.


    even in the uk local democracy is about having something to palm things off on so the government can then cut services and simply blame the councils for it as they have cut their funding to the bone.
    local democracy works in europe, it doesn't work in countries like ireland or the uk.

    ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.



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    #289
    end of the road
    Registered Users Posts: 28,989 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Take the galway ring road for one. So you think its better for the environment that people going from Oranmore to Spiddal sit in traffic jams in Eyre Square for half an hour, than simply going around the city and getting to their destination?

    no, but building the ring road doesn't do anything different but move the problem elsewhere and will ultimately increase the traffic for no benefit.
    that is why it's just not worth our while building it.
    Deleted User wrote: »
    Ludicrous thinking.

    no, it's necessary thinking to cut car usage by making it such that people would call for other alternatives.
    Deleted User wrote: »
    Your solution is reliant on buses and cycling.

    Have you experienced using buses in Galway? Is it any wonder why people opt for cars?

    buses are unreliable because the cars are taking up most of the space and there is nothing in terms of the necessary priority measures.
    clear away space from the cars and the buses are no longer unreliable.
    realistically a mix of light and heavy rail and buses are the better option in the long term.

    ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.



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    #290
    frozenfrozen
    Registered Users Posts: 7,882 ✭✭✭frozenfrozen


    I used to find driving through galway city fine because my commute was off peak anyway. Will more people working from home resolve the problem in any way?


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    #291
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    It may reduce commuting by a certain % but with Galway set to grow by 50% within a short period, its only a matter of time until it all gets snarled up again


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    #292
    buffalo
    Registered Users Posts: 8,054 ✭✭✭buffalo


    Interesting to see this line of thinking before an Oireachtas committee:
    Dr Sloman warned, however, “it is no good investing in cycleways and public transport and at the same time building more roads”.

    In response to Deputy Jennifer Whitmore (Social Democrats), she said new road-building should be stopped as it was hard to reconcile with decarbonisation.

    “Roughly one-third of the additional emissions are from construction [ of new roads] ;one-third from increases in vehicle speeds; and one-third from induced traffic. The UK Climate Change Committee has suggested the UK should prioritise broadband investment over road network expansion,” she added.

    https://www.irishtimes.com/news/environment/cycle-superhighways-must-be-part-of-decarbonising-transport-committee-hears-1.4518212


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    #293
    Markcheese
    Registered Users Posts: 8,431 ✭✭✭Markcheese


    You can't just say we're not going to build a road from Cork to limerick - or from Cork to carrigaline ,
    But at the same time you can't just build a road only project and expect it to fix all problems ,- you'll never catch up ...

    So a large current project like the dunkettle interchange - the biggest transport hub in the south of the country has no room for a public transport element ... ( The planners couldn't just ignore any of the 4 major roads that converge there , or the minor roads to little island or glountain , but they can ignore anybody traveling by coach or train who really needs to change direction )
    The N 40 ,( soon to be m40 ) will be over capacity as soon as dunkettle is finished .. with no real plan to deal with this either , bar hoping that some people will get a bus eireann bus ,that travels slowly unreliably through ancient peculiar routes ..

    Slava ukraini 🇺🇦



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    #294
    monument
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 14,072 Mod ✭✭✭✭monument


    What's covered in this tweet and the tweet it quotes is something we don't talk about enough...

    https://twitter.com/lennartnout/status/1375182579423383559


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    #295
    Phil.x
    Registered Users Posts: 1,723 ✭✭✭Phil.x


    Public transport is rubbish and expensive.
    Today in Dublin15, there are two trains per hour going into the city centre! this is not a service.

    Dublin bus drive past stops as they are full.
    So with that happening you cannot plan arrival times.
    Add young kids into the mix and it's a nightmare, and I'm speaking from experience.

    Build more roads.


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    #296
    buffalo
    Registered Users Posts: 8,054 ✭✭✭buffalo


    Phil.x wrote: »
    Public transport is rubbish and expensive.
    Today in Dublin15, there are two trains per hour going into the city centre! this is not a service.

    Dublin bus drive past stops as they are full.
    So with that happening you cannot plan arrival times.
    Add young kids into the mix and it's a nightmare, and I'm speaking from experience.

    Build more roads.

    I think you mean put on more trains and busses? :confused: Clearly the demand and need is there.


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    #297
    Markcheese
    Registered Users Posts: 8,431 ✭✭✭Markcheese


    Phil.x wrote: »
    Public transport is rubbish and expensive.
    Today in Dublin15, there are two trains per hour going into the city centre! this is not a service.

    Dublin bus drive past stops as they are full.
    So with that happening you cannot plan arrival times.
    Add young kids into the mix and it's a nightmare, and I'm speaking from experience.

    Build more roads.

    Or just put more buses on .. ( and speed up the current ones )

    Slava ukraini 🇺🇦



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    #298
    JimmyVik
    Registered Users Posts: 5,368 ✭✭✭JimmyVik


    Markcheese wrote: »
    Or just put more buses on .. ( and speed up the current ones )


    I often thought instead of putting trains on tracks just pave it and put a load of buses on it. You could widen the stations and have parking bays for the buses.
    If one broke down just drive it out of the way.


    Maybe when you build motorways stick in lanes solely for buses too. And have a big park and ride near every town that doubles as the bus station right beside the motorway.


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    #299
    donvito99
    Registered Users Posts: 5,818 ✭✭✭donvito99


    JimmyVik wrote: »
    I often thought instead of putting trains on tracks just pave it and put a load of buses on it. You could widen the stations and have parking bays for the buses.
    If one broke down just drive it out of the way.

    One train carries as many passengers as approx 16 buses. This is where that concept falls down.


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    #300
    JimmyVik
    Registered Users Posts: 5,368 ✭✭✭JimmyVik


    donvito99 wrote: »
    One train carries as many passengers as approx 16 buses. This is where that concept falls down.


    So get 16 busses.


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    #301
    Zebra3
    Registered Users Posts: 13,854 ✭✭✭✭Zebra3


    JimmyVik wrote: »
    So get 16 busses.

    And pay 16 more drivers for each train we currently have?


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