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When will the penny drop that we cannot keep building large roads?

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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,017 ✭✭✭✭cgcsb


    timmyntc wrote: »
    But some people do most of those things. Plenty of rural dwellers live far more sustainably than their urban counterparts.

    When it comes to generalisations then yes, in general the rural dweller drivers more and probably has a solid fuel fire/stove. There are also a hell of a lot more A1 rated houses built in urban areas than rural areas so that of course will be a factor.

    I agree that one-off houses should be stopped - they are a blight on the landscape and are killing small villages and towns. But its untrue to say that all rural dwellers are less sustainable than urban.

    At a policy level generalities are how decisions are made for the most part. Sure there are some people who are super eco conscious who can buck this trend.


  • Posts: 2,827 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    cgcsb wrote: »
    Again, I'm not forcing anything on anyone, merely pointing out the fallacy of your supposition. I've reported your post, a pointless, 3rd person, personal attack.
    You have condemned a sizable minority of the population of Ireland as living unsustainable lives. It is only a few years ago since the 50% threshold of urban living was passed and that is primarily due to inward immigration rather than because rural dwellers woke up one morning to discover their mode of living had become unsustainable. Your contributions to the thread are idiotic and highly offensive. Desist.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,682 ✭✭✭frozenfrozen


    ExoPolitic wrote: »
    Nope.

    do you not think it's a good idea? I don't mean some forced government app I mean just like myfitness pal but standard things are there and you just put in what you did and you see how much pollution was involved...


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,017 ✭✭✭✭cgcsb


    You have condemned a sizable minority of the population of Ireland as living unsustainable lives.

    Basically everyone in Ireland lives an unsustainable life, including urban dwellers. That's not a condemnation merely observing a fact. Most of our lives became unsustainable when we were done with our 2,500 disposable nappies.
    Your contributions to the thread are idiotic and highly offensive. Desist.

    Another report job. :D


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,523 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    About 5 million people is about 100% of the population. Seeing as 30% of the population is rural, that number is total and utter BS. And that 30% doesn't even include those living in towns and villages that are nowhere near railway lines.

    not bs as unless you are in a county without a railway like cavan, monaghan etc, then generally a drive to a railway can be medium, even if in a place which is itself without a railway.
    The discussion of the building of roads by the Irish government is not relevant what happens in NI, where they have no say in what goes on. To that point rail is not all island as CIE/IE does not control rail in NI.


    still doesn't change the fact of his point.

    I'm very highly educated. I know words, i have the best words, nobody has better words then me.



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  • Posts: 2,827 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    cgcsb wrote: »
    Another report job. :D
    You are juvenile.
    You have been soundly trounced on the topic of public infrastructure and are now dragging the thread off topic pursuing your vendetta against rural dwellers.


  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 14,109 Mod ✭✭✭✭monument


    CGCSB comes across as one of those dreary types who has no real life experience and insists on expounding on their view of a topic they haven't the first clue about.
    I will admit it is absurd to me that someone is lecturing me on living sustainably when I experienced sustainable living from an early age.
    Imagine someone like them forcing self-sufficient people who quietly go about their business providing for their own needs, drawing their own water, arranging their own waste water treatment, harvesting their own kitchen garden being upended by People like them who know nothing but dogma without insight and being forcibly displaced in to Urban centres because it is the "right thing to do".

    My advice to CGCSB would be to whist and let the Adults talk.

    You can made your point without personal attacks on others. Do not reply to this and read the Commuting and Transport charter before posting again.

    — moderator


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,682 ✭✭✭frozenfrozen


    can anyone give specifics about what roads they want to not be built


  • Posts: 15,362 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    can anyone give specifics about what roads they want to not be built

    Galway City Ring Road for a start.

    ABP decision on it due next month and I know its going to be appealed regardless of how they decide but I really hope they reject it.

    I've a feeling there's going to be many more years of legal wrangling before it gets decided one way or the other


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,017 ✭✭✭✭cgcsb


    can anyone give specifics about what roads they want to not be built

    Roads to stop:
    Galway Ring Road, the M11 'upgrade' around Bray, the M4 widening, Dublin eastern bypass(won't happen anyway)

    they only serve to increase car commuting.

    Roads that I'd like to see built:

    M20, Port motorways to Rosslare, Foynes, Ringaskiddy, finished dual carriageway to Sligo, a few bypasses and improved secondary roads across the country (all N roads should be reasonable quality and not boreens)


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  • Posts: 2,827 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    cgcsb wrote: »
    Roads to stop:
    they only serve to increase car commuting.
    Where in Dublin do you propose to house these people who are only trying to provide for themselves and their families.
    Have you spared a thought for them?
    It seems you wish to only address a symptom rather than putting forward a cure.
    Either the jobs move out of Dublin or habitable, dignified and affordable accommodation is created in Dublin. Teleworking can only achieve so much and driving to a Train Station remote from their homes to bring them in to Connolly or Pearse or Heuston Stations would double the length of most journeys.

    At some stage you are just going to have to accept that the road infrastructure is not yet fully built out and needs judicious additions.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 727 ✭✭✭NeuralNetwork


    We need huge investment in urban transit systems. If you take just out two largest cities, Dublin has two tramlines and a Victorian electrified railway that has level crossings in the city inner suburbs, because somehow finding that was an insurmountable task discussed for 40 years. Any other commuter rail is using diesel, something I’ve never seen anywhere other than American commuter rail, which is not an example to follow. Other than that it’s diesel buses.

    Cork has suburbs with way over 90% car dependency and relies primarily on a notoriously unpredictable bus network that’s been so underdeveloped it has become self defeating as hardly anyone can rely on it, so they drive instead and has one diesel commuter rail line built during the 19th century. Somehow investing in public transport systems in cities outside Dublin is still unimaginable, because we still have the “Dublin” vs “down the country” mentality that results in public policy that equates cities like Cork, Limerick, Galway and Waterford to small towns, so you’ve a long distance bus company running Cork City busses for example as if they’re express way.

    If you solved the cities transit needs with more trams, electric railways, metro in Dublin and serious and sustained investment you would take millions off journeys of the roads and probably end most traffic jams.

    Ireland’s low density population and scatter in rural area doesn’t lend itself to much rail, but we should at least invest in a high speed Y shaped network that could link Cork, Limerick, Dublin and Belfast. We’ve basically got up to European 1960s speeds on our existing services and we’ve very much just applied “go faster stripes” by putting more modern looking trains which still just run at maximum 160km/h and burn diesel. In terms of services it’s still doing exactly the same as it did in the mid 20th century.

    On the roads side of it, we’ve a need for motorway and I don’t think you can realistically call Irish long distance stuff “big” - they’re narrow 2-lane motorways and are more than adequate for traffic. We were decades behind on road infrastructure until recently.

    I think we could also use them better - electric cars are one thing but also by putting good public transport on them - use the infrastructure more greenly. Invest in hybrid and electric express busses, maybe look at electric freight - It’s a technology that being trialled in Scandinavia that we could be looking at too.

    However I think we’re always going to have roads as a big part of the mix here, so we need to use them better and more ecologically.

    Whether it’s on iron or tyres I don’t think your really going to see much benefit by refusing to invest in roads in a country that has major legacy issues with lack of road infrastructure.

    The key issue though is urban transit systems and we are not doing anything even remotely like enough to solve that in any of our lifetimes never mind the next couple of decades. The plans are always extremely unambitious.


  • Posts: 2,827 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    I'd propose an alternate thread. When will the penny drop that we need large attractive population centres and they are "infrastructure" which obviates the need for investment in other infrastructure.
    The recently deceased Liam Carroll through Zoe Developments in spite of his unimaginative architecture and H&S breaches did much good work though the late 80s to early 2000s in that he delivered huge amounts of accommodation to the City Centre and people who had no ties before family formation stage in life enjoyed a better quality of life in his shoeboxes than they would have otherwise enjoyed in dingy overcrowed house-shares in the suburbs or commuting from other towns to get to work each day or worse still overcrowded house-shares in other towns.
    This thread was started with a very leading question which steers conversation in only one direction rather than looking at things holistically and it has led to rural dwellers and those who commute by car to being demonized by some on this thread.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 727 ✭✭✭NeuralNetwork


    I think one of the key problems is Ireland hasn’t been good at cities or urban development. Great cities don’t happen by accident.

    Our cities have very limited self governance compared to almost any other examples I can think of. It would be normal for Dublin or Cork to be driving and managing their own public transit networks, raising financing and everything else if this were in continental Europe or even the US.

    We over centralise everything into a big, amorphous mess that constantly conflates urban and rural policies and plays the two off each other. The fact that the government is in Dublin, for example, does not mean Dublin has a competent and capable local government.

    If we started by seriously reforming local government, reorganising it into sanely sized units and giving cities and towns similar powers to their counterparts elsewhere in Europe, it might be a start.

    How exactly can Dublin or Cork, Limerick, Galway or Waterford hope to compete or adapt when they’ve local government systems at a city level that would be outclassed in terms of autonomy of decision making by a small French or German village?

    When it came to towns, we went head first into abolishing town councils rather than reforming them and we’ve tried to force the merger of cities and county councils. Merging Cork County Council with Cork City Council, which was stopped thankfully, would have been like merging Dublin City Council with Tipperary. The two had very little in common other than the word Cork. One is a rural are the size of almost half of Northern Ireland and the other is a significant city.

    I actually don’t trust think we don’t do a very good job of urban. Rather, I think Ireland has a massive psychological issue with the very concept of urban. We have policies that seem to aim to destroy cities and undermine towns. Perhaps it’s the idealised notions we have of rural life but, we need to urgently get over it or we will be left behind.

    Also sprawling development into rural areas isn’t good for them to either.

    If you take many Irish small towns, they’re dead because all the development has occurred in their hinterland in terms of housing and the focus has ended up on driving to the local Lidl, Aldi or Tesco. So the town is left with derelict houses and empty shops. You see that repeated all over the midlands and so on.

    I remember being in north Leitrim and some of the development attempts in small towns would just leave you scratching your head. Villages that seemed to be trying to implement policies suitable for cities - like building strips of duplex apartments with no gardens, that nobody wanted, with nobody living in their basement flats because some planning department hadn’t a clue what a village was and apartment buildings for demand that never existed.

    We haven’t a clue when it comes to this stuff. It’s actually frightening to see how badly wrong we got it.

    In terms of the cities, if we don’t get them right it will also undermine our ability to continue to attract and keep FDI and domestic investment. Cities have to be capable of sustaining a lifestyle and that’s not just about money. It’s about things like facilities, green space, urban environments, cultural life, air quality (a massive issue in Cork now due to solid fuel burning in a city?!!) housing quality, affordability etc etc etc.

    All of the above spills into transport systems and commuting.


  • Posts: 11,614 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    cgcsb wrote: »
    Roads to stop:
    Galway Ring Road, the M11 'upgrade' around Bray, the M4 widening, Dublin eastern bypass(won't happen anyway)

    they only serve to increase car commuting.

    Roads that I'd like to see built:

    M20, Port motorways to Rosslare, Foynes, Ringaskiddy, finished dual carriageway to Sligo, a few bypasses and improved secondary roads across the country (all N roads should be reasonable quality and not boreens)

    Take the galway ring road for one. So you think its better for the environment that people going from Oranmore to Spiddal sit in traffic jams in Eyre Square for half an hour, than simply going around the city and getting to their destination?

    Ludicrous thinking.

    On your rural living point. Ive been in the family home in rural galway for most of the past year. Indeed, today is the one year anniversary of me working from home.

    On this half acre, one off housing site in rural galway, we have a green house and a polytunnel. We have our own well for drawing water.

    In the polytunnel we grow strawberries and grapes(and come September I'll be harvesting the grapes, crushing them to make wine).

    In the greenhouse we will have tomatoes, chillies and jalapenos.

    In the ground we have onions and potatoes. Also a cherry tree and various assortment of herbs.

    The long hot shower I had this morning was warmed through the Solar panels on the roof, which even on a gloomy day like today, gets enough power to heat water.

    No not everyone does this, but in this area most people have a few things growing. As I said in a previous post, we need to define the word sustainable.

    Whatever about carbon, my biggest environmental concern is plastic. I've stopped putting teabags in the compost after I found out Barrys teabags have plastic in them.


  • Posts: 15,362 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Take the galway ring road for one. So you think its better for the environment that people going from Oranmore to Spiddal sit in traffic jams in Eyre Square for half an hour, than simply going around the city and getting to their destination?

    Ludicrous thinking.

    Only 5% of the traffic was going from external to external.

    The remaining 95% of Galway traffic was made up of
    - internal to internal
    - external to internal
    - internal to external

    For internal to internal, a dedicated bus priority network along with protected cycling infrastructure would move far more people a lot faster

    For external to internal, a series of Park & Strides with secure bike parking facilities and served by bus routes would be better

    For internal to external address the 2 groups above and you have freed up a massive amount of capacity so a ring road is no longer needed.

    Your scenario involves spending over half a billion euro to address 5% of the traffic in Galway city.

    Ludicrous thinking indeed!


  • Posts: 2,827 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    On this half acre, one off housing site in rural galway, we have a green house and a polytunnel. We have our own well for drawing water.
    Those who adhere to Green Environmental Dogma don't update their beliefs when faced with new pertinent information which challenges their core belief system.


  • Posts: 11,614 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Only 5% of the traffic was going from external to external.

    The remaining 95% of Galway traffic was made up of
    - internal to internal
    - external to internal
    - internal to external

    For internal to internal, a dedicated bus priority network along with protected cycling infrastructure would move far more people a lot faster

    For external to internal, a series of Park & Strides with secure bike parking facilities and served by bus routes would be better

    For internal to external address the 2 groups above and you have freed up a massive amount of capacity so a ring road is no longer needed.

    Your scenario involves spending over half a billion euro to address 5% of the traffic in Galway city.

    Ludicrous thinking indeed!

    Your solution is reliant on buses and cycling.

    Have you experienced using buses in Galway? Is it any wonder why people opt for cars?


  • Posts: 2,827 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    When I think of Galway I think of windswept trees like thisEK9tX02WkAAXz6r?format=jpg&name=large
    It isn't an environment for any but the hardiest of cyclists.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,017 ✭✭✭✭cgcsb


    Where in Dublin do you propose to house these people who are only trying to provide for themselves and their families.
    Have you spared a thought for them?
    It seems you wish to only address a symptom rather than putting forward a cure.
    Either the jobs move out of Dublin or habitable, dignified and affordable accommodation is created in Dublin. Teleworking can only achieve so much and driving to a Train Station remote from their homes to bring them in to Connolly or Pearse or Heuston Stations would double the length of most journeys.

    At some stage you are just going to have to accept that the road infrastructure is not yet fully built out and needs judicious additions.

    Building more roads isn't going to help though. There's less and less road capacity in Dublin City as more space is given to sustainable modes so adding more road capacity further out is just facilitating more congestion.

    Housing is a separate issue, my view on it is that the present government should be removed and replaced with a government that will end the housing crisis through a public building program that adheres to the compact growth principles of Ireland2040. Public building programs ended all previous housing crisis but this time around we have a government that promotes profit for a small number of overseas individuals at the expense of housing the population.


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  • Posts: 2,827 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    cgcsb wrote: »
    Housing is a separate issue, my view on it is that the present government should be removed and replaced with a government that will end the housing crisis through a public building program that adheres to the compact growth principles of Ireland2040. Public building programs ended all previous housing crisis but this time around we have a government that promotes profit for a small number of overseas individuals at the expense of housing the population.
    Don't you think your time would be better spent agitating there.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,367 ✭✭✭JimmyVik


    Cant wait to see my great granny in Galway go from the Hospital to the park and ride, and then get on the bike and cycle home.


  • Posts: 11,614 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    When I think of Galway I think of windswept trees like thisEK9tX02WkAAXz6r?format=jpg&name=large
    It isn't an environment for any but the hardiest of cyclists.

    You should have been here the last 3 days. With gusts of 80kph, its tricycles we need, not bicycles.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,017 ✭✭✭✭cgcsb


    I think one of the key problems is Ireland hasn’t been good at cities or urban development. Great cities don’t happen by accident.

    The early state followed a rural-centric model of development. Every boreen was paved and electricity was brought to every house but the cities were largely left lie. Big industrial cities were 'too English', we needed to dance at crossroads and sell eachother knitwear according DeValera.
    Our cities have very limited self governance compared to almost any other examples I can think of. It would be normal for Dublin or Cork to be driving and managing their own public transit networks, raising financing and everything else if this were in continental Europe or even the US.

    I'm apprehensive of that. DCC are a dusty bunch of anti progress loons who oppose development above 4 floors and even then are generally anti development, just look how they failed to handle the liffey cycle route, college green, the proposed docklands bridges, building heights, the anpr yellow box cameras, their housing stock, general maintenance etc. The state recently had to remove their power to set height limits because they couldn't come to a more mature attitude to development.

    Cork CC recently proved that they simply cannot even manage a short bus lane (Patrick Street). I don't see how giving these people more power solves anything.

    Limerick has recently moved to a directly elected mayor model, we'll see how that pans out but tbh I don't think local democracy works here.


  • Posts: 11,614 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    JimmyVik wrote: »
    Cant wait to see my great granny in Galway go from the Hospital to the park and ride, and then get on the bike and cycle home.

    True story: Old Mrs Morissey near me was still cycling to Mass everyday until the age of 80. She was feeding cows one day and got knocked over and broke her hip, and that was the end of the cycling. I met her on the road about a month after the hip break, she was climbing over a gate after feeding calves.

    However, just because Mrs Morissey was still cycling at 80, it doesn't mean the rest of the population can. Personally, to get me to cycle in Galway city, I would want danger money.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,017 ✭✭✭✭cgcsb


    Take the galway ring road for one. So you think its better for the environment that people going from Oranmore to Spiddal sit in traffic jams in Eyre Square for half an hour, than simply going around the city and getting to their destination?

    Nope, I think the city should implement the busconnects project in full and reduce car commuting by half.
    On your rural living point. Ive been in the family home in rural galway for most of the past year. Indeed, today is the one year anniversary of me working from home.

    On this half acre, one off housing site in rural galway, we have a green house and a polytunnel. We have our own well for drawing water.

    In the polytunnel we grow strawberries and grapes(and come September I'll be harvesting the grapes, crushing them to make wine).

    In the greenhouse we will have tomatoes, chillies and jalapenos.

    In the ground we have onions and potatoes. Also a cherry tree and various assortment of herbs.

    The long hot shower I had this morning was warmed through the Solar panels on the roof, which even on a gloomy day like today, gets enough power to heat water.

    That sounds nice, well done you.
    No not everyone does this, but in this area most people have a few things growing. As I said in a previous post, we need to define the word sustainable.

    Sustainability is using a resource or resources in a manor which does not negatively impact the ability of future generations to use the same resource and the use of the resource should not have secondary negative impacts on future generations.

    Almost no people in the western world currently live lives that are truly sustainable so we have the terms more/less sustainable. For example driving an electric car is more sustainable than driving because you've used less resources and left less waste as a result of that action. Using a gas boiler is more sustainable than using an oil boiler etc. Even though these aren't 'perfect' solutions they are 'more sustainable'.
    Whatever about carbon, my biggest environmental concern is plastic. I've stopped putting teabags in the compost after I found out Barrys teabags have plastic in them.

    Agreed, government needs to take real action here to reduce packaging in supermarkets and eliminate single use plastics.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,017 ✭✭✭✭cgcsb


    Have you experienced using buses in Galway? Is it any wonder why people opt for cars?

    This is why busconnects is vastly superior solution with 5% of the pricetag. The proposed bypass isn't going to solve anything.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 727 ✭✭✭NeuralNetwork


    The reason for that though is the city councils have no role in most people’s lives and aren’t seen to have any involvement in things like transit systems.

    I would suspect most people don’t even know or care who their local councillors are because they don’t have any role in anything meaningful.

    It also results in the likes of DCC being a talking shop for protest candidates wanting a platform as the council itself has no real role in anything particular and authority is wielded largely by the executive. So the result is you get people in there on student politics like rants, as that’s the level of power the chamber wields and the city’s residents are barely even aware of what it does as it has no relevance to them.

    Cork City Council found itself against a local media campaign claiming the city centre was impassable due to a few hours of pedestrian only access on a busy shopping street with 180+ stores that was orchestrated by a few loud voices. The net result of that was people assumed the city centre was disrupted and didn’t come in, when the reality was the opposite.

    But also on things like enforcement of bus lanes - even that isn’t a council issue and depends on the Gardai as, unlike almost everywhere else in the world there’s no local police. If you’re in a city on the continent or in the USA, the local police (answerable to city hall) enforce traffic rules. Here for some reason that’s a matter for the national parliament.

    We haven’t quite moved beyond the days when there used to be Dail Questions to the Minister for Posts & Telegraphs about the dial on the phone-box in Westmorland Street or the light bulb in the one on the South Mall.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,017 ✭✭✭✭cgcsb


    Don't you think your time would be better spent agitating there.

    I won't tolerate any further personal negative commentary on me, what I spend MY time on and general off topic personal abuse. You've been warned already, desist and move on.


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  • Posts: 2,077 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Cars are the only practical solution in many parts of Ireland. We need to make these as green as possible. Public transport is fine if you live in Dublin. It's shockingly bad even in Cork city, the bus timetable and even the real time tracking is a work of fiction with regular "ghost" buses that mysteriously are 1 minute away and never show up, and then others that show up with no indication at all. I am convinced there is a warp in the space time continuum that wanders around Cork city centre that swallows buses whole and spits them back out at random locations far from where they originally were.


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