Let's all talk about Lewis?

El_Duderino 09 · 14-01-2021 5:15pm

TCP/IP wrote: »

They should just put Russell in the car and they will win the championship at a canter with him at the wheel anyway for about 85% less cost of keeping lewis.
Will get an easy drivers and constructors win again no one can touch Merc over the season not until at least 2022 anyway.

The other factor to consider is Hamilton being in a competing car. In these threads he’s not generally liked so he’s treated as an above average driver and the car wins the championships. But in the real world he’s red carded as the best driver (with only max presumes to be at or near his level).

They can either pay him an extortionate fee to drive for them or he would have to settle for a whole lot less to drive against them. Tricky choice

Frank Bullitt · 14-01-2021 5:22pm

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

The other factor to consider is Hamilton being in a competing car. In these threads he’s not generally liked so he’s treated as an above average driver and the car wins the championships. But in the real world he’s red carded as the best driver (with only max presumes to be at or near his level).

They can either pay him an extortionate fee to drive for them or he would have to settle for a whole lot less to drive against them. Tricky choice

Is that really a choice though? IF he and Merc parted (can't see that) where would be go with those kinds of demands? Maybe Aston but I can't see Stroll getting the boot with his Dad as such a big investor. Ferrari have Leclerc for a few more years and Sainz, RB have Max. Any other team is a massive step back for him, such is the advantage Merc have in this hybrid era.

Sounds like he is pricing himself for this team, and this team alone.

Zaph · 14-01-2021 5:25pm

I wonder is he looking longer term at when he retires and is holding out for an equity stake in the team? As some have said, a lot of it may simply be about having the best contract. In the status stakes, you're not going to do much better than being a part owner of the team you drive for.

gsi300024v · 14-01-2021 5:27pm

Good point they wouldn't like to see him go to a rival team with all his knowledge and experience of the best team and share it with a rival, or actually drive against Merc. Often, psychologically speaking, it is hard to separate what we think about a person's character from what they've actually achieved. He's not the first driver to get in a car that is so far ahead of the others, Mclaren and Williams both had great runs too, and people still respect their drivers as greats. Races you can argue there are more races in a year to win, but championships, that's not so different from years gone by before is it? Senna and Prost both had spells in very dominant teams so did Schumi. Vettel had the best car for a period too. The best drivers don't always sit in the best cars. But when they do this happens. Will Vettel's team become a powerhouse?

14-01-2021 5:31pm

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

The other factor to consider is Hamilton being in a competing car. In these threads he’s not generally liked so he’s treated as an above average driver and the car wins the championships. But in the real world he’s red carded as the best driver (with only max presumes to be at or near his level).

They can either pay him an extortionate fee to drive for them or he would have to settle for a whole lot less to drive against them. Tricky choice

Which competing car? There's only one team winning the driver's championship this year. Red Bull won't sign him, Ferrari are done under the current engine formula. If a team does get "lucky" in 2022 some of them already have a driver who can take the best car to a title.
Red Bull - Verstappen
McLaren - Riccardo
Williams - Russell
Alpine - Alonso
I'd even argue that Vettel in the best car and starting from the front row consistently would get it done.

Obviously no harm asking, and it'd be pretty stupid to open a negotiation with the least you're willing to accept but IMO it'd be pretty much corporate negligence on Mercedes' part to give that kind of a deal when they have Russell waiting in the wings.

gsi300024v · 14-01-2021 5:31pm

Russell is not proven, he's definitely more of a gamble than if Lewis drives next year, will Lewis be winning in 3 and 4 years time, equally that is somewhat of a gamble also.
Does it even need discussing next year if Russell or Lewis is the safer bet?
It's definitely though more exciting if Russell got the seat.

El_Duderino 09 · 14-01-2021 5:32pm

Frank Bullitt wrote: »

Is that really a choice though? IF he and Merc parted (can't see that) where would be go with those kinds of demands? Maybe Aston but I can't see Stroll getting the boot with his Dad as such a big investor. Ferrari have Leclerc for a few more years and Sainz, RB have Max. Any other team is a massive step back for him, such is the advantage Merc have in this hybrid era.

Sounds like he is pricing himself for this team, and this team alone.

He’d have his choice of a few teams. Vettel would probably be easy to buy out as it seems he’s on a tiny fraction of his Ferrari wage as a driver (Aston Martin ambassador role might be more expensive). But Red bull would be delighted with him for 2022. Not sure about the others and what contracts they have. Perez is definitely on a one year deal.

He’d settle for more realistic money at another team.

Vettel told Ferrari he didn’t want a significant pay cut from his $30, so they didn’t bother with negotiations. Then he settles for an 80% Pat cut at Aston Martin. That how it would probably go with Hamilton too.

Frank Bullitt · 14-01-2021 5:40pm

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

He’d have his choice of a few teams. Vettel would probably be easy to buy out as it seems he’s on a tiny fraction of his Ferrari wage as a driver (Aston Martin ambassador role might be more expensive). But Red bull would be delighted with him for 2022. Not sure about the others and what contracts they have. Perez is definitely on a one year deal.

He’d settle for more realistic money at another team.

Vettel told Ferrari he didn’t want a significant pay cut from his $30, so they didn’t bother with negotiations. Then he settles for an 80% Pat cut at Aston Martin. That how it would probably go with Hamilton too.

Don't see that TBH. RB have Max who is probably the best driver outside of the Merc drive, they have traditionally followed a 1st and 2nd driver format (hence signing Perez) and as for costs, they will be likely be making and supplying their own engine soon, so forking out for Hamilton would be an additional cost. Max brings plenty of PR value with that, sales at Spa went up because of him, same in Austria and now the Dutch GP as well.

I can't see Hamilton settling for anything outside of Merc right now, any team is a big step back for him and the car advantage will evaporate in a blink.

Having said that, I can see him signing a 2 year deal with an option to extend.

gsi300024v · 14-01-2021 6:39pm

Perze should be a good number two for us, screw the team orders, he'll likely not worry about next year and just try putting it up to Max in an equal car.
Who knows though, would you put it past an F1 team to secretly turn down a car's performance to keep a 1st and 2nd driver more clear cut? It should be fun to see how close Max's team mate can get to him. Two good drivers in Redbull putting Merc under more pressure than just max would be good.
Will Stroll's team keep improving?

Santan · 14-01-2021 6:45pm

If you were on the board, or let's say you are toto as now he is a partner, what would you choose to do. You know you will have huge pr from sky if you keep Hamilton and all the other pr that goes with him, but for that you are going to have to pay huge money, and any other demands he has. Would you be confident enough to put someone like Russell in the car at a fraction of the cost, and end up have 2 driver's fighting each other, as how much do you really know if bottas is quicker or not. If you go with a new driver and for some crazy reason red bull are closer and you don't win the driver's championship, Mercedes will look worse than dreadful, that it was not the car and team that broke all these records, that it was one man and they let him go. Or do you just suck it up continue as is, strike as good a deal as you can with Hamilton and guaranteed some more championships and destroy the records for possibly all time.
If it was me, I would risk it. If I was head of Mercedes I would want to prove to the world that Mercedes have made the best racing machine and the best racing team the F1 world has ever witnessed, that Mercedes can put a Russell or bottas or who ever into their car and it will win. That would be my take on it, huge amount for Mercedes to gain over the next 20 years if it paid off for them, unless there is something I don't see that can be pointed out.

El_Duderino 09 · 14-01-2021 6:49pm

gsi300024v wrote: »

Perze should be a good number two for us, screw the team orders, he'll likely not worry about next year and just try putting it up to Max in an equal car.
Who knows though, would you put it past an F1 team to secretly turn down a car's performance to keep a 1st and 2nd driver more clear cut? It should be fun to see how close Max's team mate can get to him. Two good drivers in Redbull putting Merc under more pressure than just max would be good.
Will Stroll's team keep improving?

Absolutely not. That’s the kind of thing that’s only mentioned when people want to make an excuse for a driver doing poorly. People said it about Vettel last year because he did so poorly but a team wouldn’t do it and certainly not on purpose.

gsi300024v · 14-01-2021 7:09pm

Teams have asked drivers to fake crashes.
I doubt Redbull would do it, I'd say Max would just get faster if anything.
While 200millions sounds a lot, what is Merc's yearly budget, Bottas is not an expensive driver is he?
And they are sort of guaranteed another championship with lewis, How much does that bring in from F1 peeps in extra winnings money compared to 2nd place. And is value for money important to them or more the certain title in record books for all time. Not saying it can't be beaten. It's interesting Merc have been let win so many, Bernie would sometimes throw in a big rule change to shake it up, and reset people.
I wonder what budget caps would be like if all teams had to have the same budget.

Top Dog · 14-01-2021 7:13pm

Santan wrote: »

If you were on the board, or let's say you are toto as now he is a partner, what would you choose to do. You know you will have huge pr from sky if you keep Hamilton and all the other pr that goes with him, but for that you are going to have to pay huge money, and any other demands he has. Would you be confident enough to put someone like Russell in the car at a fraction of the cost, and end up have 2 driver's fighting each other, as how much do you really know if bottas is quicker or not. If you go with a new driver and for some crazy reason red bull are closer and you don't win the driver's championship, Mercedes will look worse than dreadful, that it was not the car and team that broke all these records, that it was one man and they let him go. Or do you just suck it up continue as is, strike as good a deal as you can with Hamilton and guaranteed some more championships and destroy the records for possibly all time.
If it was me, I would risk it. If I was head of Mercedes I would want to prove to the world that Mercedes have made the best racing machine and the best racing team the F1 world has ever witnessed, that Mercedes can put a Russell or bottas or who ever into their car and it will win. That would be my take on it, huge amount for Mercedes to gain over the next 20 years if it paid off for them, unless there is something I don't see that can be pointed out.

I'll put it another way - do I think Lewis, and all he brings with him, is worth £50 million a year plus extras? I'd have to say no. No other team will pay him that so let him go.

gsi300024v · 14-01-2021 7:13pm

How much of Merc's budget is classed as advertising so goes as expenses
and comes off their tax bill.
Be interesting to see, say every 1 euro they spend 60 cent comes of their tax bill. Any accountants in the house?

El_Duderino 09 · 01-06-2021 2:05pm

AMKC wrote: »

I know there is a thread somewhere on Hamilton but can't be arsed to go look now so if a moderator wants to move this they are welcome too,

Hamiltons love life seems to be none exist since Nicole Scherzinger. So who do you think would be a good match for him.

Here is two options I think would be good,

1) Naomi Osaka: but maybe she might be s bit young

2) Katie Taylor: but had on Irish mammy on FB say no just no but no idea why.

So who would make a good pairing with him?

I often thought he wasn't " the marrying type" - but that euphemism doesn't work since the gay marriage referendum. I would have wondered the same about Katie Taylor so what do I know?

With Lewis, I'd say he loves himself enough to be in a perfectly fulfilling relationship, all on his own.

flazio · 01-06-2021 4:23pm

I always suspected his personal trainer you see hovering around him all the time but she's actually happily married elsewhere so no, no special treatment there. I've enough reasons to like his driving but hate his personality without looking for more.

Gaoth Laidir · 01-06-2021 6:44pm

If you ask me he's probably not only interested in the ladies. Just has a way about him.

recyclebin · 01-06-2021 8:02pm

This thread has reached a new low!

Kevski · 01-06-2021 8:10pm

recyclebin wrote: »

This thread has reached a new low!

Pathetic doesn’t even come close to describing the content of the last few posts.

El_Duderino 09 · 01-06-2021 8:24pm

Kevski wrote: »

Pathetic doesn’t even come close to describing the content of the last few posts.

Gay isn't an insult anymore, it's 2021. People speculate about Hamilton and his character and identity and personality, all the time.

How's it fine to say you think he's a nob, but pathetic to speculate on his serial orientation?

elperello · 01-06-2021 8:32pm

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Gay isn't an insult anymore, it's 2021. People speculate about Hamilton and his character and identity and personality, all the time.

How's it fine to say you think he's a nob, but pathetic to speculate on his serial orientation?

I don't care what he eats for breakfast.

Kevski · 01-06-2021 8:33pm

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Gay isn't an insult anymore, it's 2021. People speculate about Hamilton and his character and identity and personality, all the time.

How's it fine to say you think he's a nob, but pathetic to speculate on his serial orientation?

I don’t think I mentioned anything about Hamilton’s character or identity, did I?

I don’t think I said it was fine to say Hamilton is a knob either, did I? Because it’s not really fine to post that kind of stuff about anyone, is it?

You’ve drawn a lot of conclusions there and all of them are incorrect.

When I said that the last few posts were pathetic it was a reflection on the speculative discussion around an individuals relationship status. This is the Motorsport forum, not the Daily Mail. I’d expect the discussion here to be a bit above the level of that kind of trash.

elperello · 01-06-2021 8:39pm

Kevski wrote: »

I don’t think I mentioned anything about Hamilton’s character or identity, did I?

I don’t think I said it was fine to say Hamilton is a knob either, did I? Because it’s not really fine to post that kind of stuff about anyone, is it?

You’ve drawn a lot of conclusions there and all of them are incorrect.

When I said that the last few posts were pathetic it was a reflection on the speculative discussion around an individuals relationship status. This is the Motorsport forum, not the Daily Mail. I’d expect the discussion here to be a bit above the level of that kind of trash.

On a serious note I have no interest in this kind of celebrity chat but if others have let them at it I say.

El_Duderino 09 · 01-06-2021 9:18pm

Kevski wrote: »

I don’t think I mentioned anything about Hamilton’s character or identity, did I?

I don’t think I said it was fine to say Hamilton is a knob either, did I? Because it’s not really fine to post that kind of stuff about anyone, is it?

You’ve drawn a lot of conclusions there and all of them are incorrect.

When I said that the last few posts were pathetic it was a reflection on the speculative discussion around an individuals relationship status. This is the Motorsport forum, not the Daily Mail. I’d expect the discussion here to be a bit above the level of that kind of trash.

I didn't suggest you said any of those things. I said "people speculate about...", which is true, but I didn't mention you at all at all.

It's fine for you to not enjoy the chat. It's just a chat forum.

Kevski · 01-06-2021 9:54pm

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

I didn't suggest you said any of those things. I said "people speculate about...", which is true, but I didn't mention you at all at all.

It's fine for you to not enjoy the chat. It's just a chat forum.

Why quote my post if you weren’t addressing me then?

It’s not the chat that’s the issue, it’s the content of the chat. How would you feel if there was a thread on boards where random strangers discussed your sexuality or your relationship status?

In your previous post you said the following in relation to Hamilton:

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Gay isn't an insult anymore, it's 2021.

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

How's it fine to say you think he's a nob, but pathetic to speculate on his serial orientation?

That’s a pretty low standard of chat to be posting online about someone.

Gaoth Laidir · 01-06-2021 10:05pm

Kevski wrote: »

Why quote my post if you weren’t addressing me then?

It’s not the chat that’s the issue, it’s the content of the chat. How would you feel if there was a thread on boards where random strangers discussed your sexuality or your relationship status?

In your previous post you said the following in relation to Hamilton:

That’s a pretty low standard of chat to be posting online about someone.

It's a thread about Lewis, not about F1. Lewis himself is not all about F1. He's a megastar, very active on social media anywhere else he get his face in, so he has to expect all sorts of analyses. A lot of this analysis is negative, but he only has himself to blame for that with the way he carries on. He has no problem people speaking about his relationships when they occur, so it stands to reason that people can talk about the lack thereof too.

Kevski · 01-06-2021 10:12pm

Gaoth Laidir wrote: »

A lot of this analysis is negative, but he only has himself to blame for that with the way he carries on.

So if someone doesn’t like someone else’s personality (someone they most likely have never even met) then that makes it ok to post shíte about them online?

gsi300024v · 03-06-2021 10:21am

Was the last race just a blip for Lewis, and he'll be back in front now, the Ferrari crashing didn't help where he started the race, and any other race he'd probably have worked his way back up to nearer the front. I'm not a Lewis fan, nor a Max fan, but I'd like to see a good close championship, which looks like we're going to get.
People love the downfall of a king I feel, but also it might just be the media are enjoying they've a close championship so far and don't need work hard trying to make it seem close when it was far from it the last few years.

AMKC · 03-06-2021 11:12am

gsi300024v wrote: »

Was the last race just a blip for Lewis, and he'll be back in front now, the Ferrari crashing didn't help where he started the race, and any other race he'd probably have worked his way back up to nearer the front. I'm not a Lewis fan, nor a Max fan, but I'd like to see a good close championship, which looks like we're going to get.
People love the downfall of a king I feel, but also it might just be the media are enjoying they've a close championship so far and don't need work hard trying to make it seem close when it was far from it the last few years.

Let's hope it was not just a blip. I want to see this go down to the wire and it would be great if Max won the WDC just to give Hamilton motivation to try and win it in the new cars next year and have an even closer championship then too.

gsi300024v · 03-06-2021 1:52pm

If Lewis wins this year I can't see him hanging around, who knows though, but maybe he'd sail off into the sunset with a record 8 championships and relax. MAybe he'd like the challenge of a new car too though.

04-06-2021 9:30am

Let’s hope that Mercedes don’t have such a dominant car next year.
That would make it the first year ever that we can evaluate real Hamilton’s ability. So far his real potential has always been masked him by such a significant car advantage.

El_Duderino 09 · 04-06-2021 9:41am

gsi300024v wrote: »

Was the last race just a blip for Lewis, and he'll be back in front now, the Ferrari crashing didn't help where he started the race, and any other race he'd probably have worked his way back up to nearer the front. I'm not a Lewis fan, nor a Max fan, but I'd like to see a good close championship, which looks like we're going to get.
People love the downfall of a king I feel, but also it might just be the media are enjoying they've a close championship so far and don't need work hard trying to make it seem close when it was far from it the last few years.

The last race was the Monaco circuit - the lease appropriate circuit on the calendar and is indicative of absolutely nothing else in the entire season. It really suited Ferrari who aren't at the top of the grid this year. It will be back to normal service this weekend with Red Bull and Mercedes in contention for the win.

Lewis was behind Bottas last week which suggests he didn't have a good weekend. Normal service will most likely resume this weekend

El_Duderino 09 · 04-06-2021 9:46am

gsi300024v wrote: »

If Lewis wins this year I can't see him hanging around, who knows though, but maybe he'd sail off into the sunset with a record 8 championships and relax. MAybe he'd like the challenge of a new car too though.

I doubt winning this year is related to whether he stays on. Truth is we don't know what motivates him so we have decided it's all about the drivers' championship record. But we don't have a clue. Toto said they're negotiating a 2 year deal at the moment. No idea if that's true or not - could be a decoy. I think we won't know until he announces a new contract or retirement.

He's getting on for retirement age but not losing his edge. Might want to go out on top, might want to fight on for the craic.

Zookey123 · 04-06-2021 10:08am

2011 wrote: »

Let’s hope that Mercedes don’t have such a dominant car next year.
That would make it the first year ever that we can evaluate real Hamilton’s ability. So far his real potential has always been masked him by such a significant car advantage.

I'm assuming you only started watching F1 during the Hybrid era.

Faugheen · 04-06-2021 6:51pm

Zookey123 wrote: »

I'm assuming you only started watching F1 during the Hybrid era.

Baffles me all the time. He has beaten every team-mate he has ever had including three world champions yet people act like this doesn't reflect anything.

This is it · 04-06-2021 9:06pm

There's no doubt in my mind he's one of the greatest F1 drivers we've seen, no matter how much I dislike him.

Frank Bullitt · 04-06-2021 9:58pm

Faugheen wrote: »

Baffles me all the time. He has beaten every team-mate he has ever had including three world champions yet people act like this doesn't reflect anything.

He had some bad seasons, but the good outweigh them.

Faugheen · 05-06-2021 9:44am

Frank Bullitt wrote: »

He had some bad seasons, but the good outweigh them.

By his own standards, yes, but he has never finished outside of the top 5 in the World Championship.

That's incredible consistency.

Frank Bullitt · 05-06-2021 8:36pm

Faugheen wrote: »

By his own standards, yes, but he has never finished outside of the top 5 in the World Championship.

That's incredible consistency.

Handy when you only race for top teams for your career. :pac:

05-06-2021 8:41pm

Zookey123 wrote: »

I'm assuming you only started watching F1 during the Hybrid era.

Nope.
When do you think Hamilton has not had a car advantage in F1?

Frank Bullitt · 05-06-2021 8:59pm

2011 wrote: »

Nope.
When do you think Hamilton has not had a car advantage in F1?

2009, 2010, 2011, 2013.

Having said that, he was always in a team with huge resources and budgets. So a bad season for him is a good season for some. 2011 was one of his worst, him and Massa were magnetically drawn to each other.

Charlie-Bravo · 05-06-2021 11:03pm

Awh, I miss the love they gave each other that year.

06-06-2021 12:09am

Frank Bullitt wrote: »

2009, 2010, 2011, 2013.

So essentially you are saying the years he didn’t win the world championships are the years that he didn’t have the best car?
You have just made my point.

barryribs · 06-06-2021 7:52am

2011 wrote: »

So essentially you are saying the years he didn’t win the world championships are the years that he didn’t have the best car?
You have just made my point.

Name two years from the last 30 that the world champion didn't have the best car. I say two because the one that stands out is 07, McLaren beat themselves that year and Lewis threw the championship away in China.

rock22 · 06-06-2021 8:09am

barryribs wrote: »

Name two years from the last 30 that the world champion didn't have the best car. I say two because the one that stands out is 07, McLaren beat themselves that year and Lewis threw the championship away in China.

Did Schumacher ever have the best car?

PopePalpatine · 06-06-2021 10:05am

Does 2003 count?

barryribs · 06-06-2021 10:26am

PopePalpatine wrote: »

Does 2003 count?

Arguably, but not after the Ferrari/Bridgestone protests

Zookey123 · 06-06-2021 11:27am

2011 wrote: »

So essentially you are saying the years he didn’t win the world championships are the years that he didn’t have the best car?
You have just made my point.

In 2009 Mclaren finished with a third of the points of the overall winners Brawn F1. 2010 till 2013 was red bull domination. In 2008 Lewis's first WDC Mclaren actually lost to Ferrari in constructors. Are you seriously suggesting he had a "significant car advantage" then? Even in the years his team got trounced in the constructors?

Faugheen · 06-06-2021 11:47am

If we’re not counting years that the best car won the championship then Button, who is highly regarded by many here, is bang average. Likewise Vettel’s four WC’s.

Why were none of Hamilton’s team-mates, which included 3 world champions, able to beat him overall? Only two seasons out 14 has a team-mate beaten him in the WC. One of them (Button) he responded by beating him the following year and the other (Rosberg) retired. Surely that’s a better barometer than ‘errr the car’? How about who was racing beside him?

There is a conscious effort to discredit all of Hamilton’s achievements and it’s out of nothing but pure hatred.

Gaoth Laidir · 06-06-2021 12:09pm

Faugheen wrote: »

If we’re not counting years that the best car won the championship then Button, who is highly regarded by many here, is bang average. Likewise Vettel’s
four WC’s.

Why were none of Hamilton’s team-mates, which included 3 world champions, able to beat him overall? Only two seasons out 14 has a team-mate beaten him in the WC. One of them (Button) he responded by beating him the following year and the other (Rosberg) retired. Surely that’s a better barometer than ‘errr the car’? How about who was racing beside him?

There is a conscious effort to discredit all of Hamilton’s achievements and it’s out of nothing but pure hatred.

If you compare Lewis to Bottas during the latter's Merc career (2017+), Lewis has had only one technical DNF in that time compared to Bottas' eight. Add in Bottas' awful luck on many occasions (Baku puncture, Silverstone puncture a few laps before Lewis, pit fcuk-ups at Sakhir and again last week, etc.). Yes, Lewis is a better driver than Bottas, but damn does he get all the luck going.

Let's all talk about Lewis?

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