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Cold Spell Prospects and Discussion (January + Early Feb 2012)

2456735

Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,180 ✭✭✭pauldry


    Was thinking that there is cold weather looking likely myself before I logged on.

    However it looks more like 4s and 5s than zeros so probably a few days of mixed showers.

    As for MTs minus 18.. never write him off.;)


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,129 ✭✭✭Wild Bill


    pauldry wrote: »

    As for MTs minus 18.. never write him off.;)

    Look at the downside.

    If he's right there goes my chances of winning the winter 11/12 forecast :mad:


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,030 ✭✭✭Tom Cruises Left Nut


    Better looking GFS this morning... to my eyes anyway !

    187371.png

    187372.png

    187373.png


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,693 ✭✭✭Redsunset


    Latest ECM 32 Day signalling a colder and far less zonal outlook late January and into early February...blocking to the W or NW possible
    Matt Hugo


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,030 ✭✭✭Tom Cruises Left Nut


    At least this GFS run has stopped some of the wrist slashing on NW :D


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,667 ✭✭✭WolfeIRE


    ECM and GEFS both indicate a spill south of cold over from the Arctic air during the next 5-7 days over North America with further Arctic surges into Eastern Europe later in the same period. By mid-January or closer to 16-18th it appears that anywhere in the Northern Hemisphere could experience such a 'toppler'.

    I think the models, particularly the GEFS, is struggling to handle the expected drop into negative territory of the AO/warming of stratosphere and the possible splitting of the polar vortex. As MTC and others here have said, models can change dramatically very quickly in such a set-up so it may take until early next week before we can say with any great certainty what conditions will be like beyond 15 Jan.

    At present I would put down the following confidence markers for likely conditions around 16-18th:
    Settled with high pressure nearby, temps around or slightly above average 10%
    Settled with high pressure nearby, temps below average 10%
    Arctic toppler, wintry showers for some, severe nighttime frosts (3-4 days) - 20%
    Strong jetstream, stormy and unsettled in a predominantly SW-W flow 25%
    Cold zonal (temps around or slightly below average, with mixed wintry showers in a W-NW flow) 35%

    Looking at the GEFS ensembles and there are mixed signals but more of a cooling trend that yesterday. Meanwhile, the AO is still edging towards negative territory while the NAO looks like staying low positive.
    187376.png
    187377.gif

    **********************************

    Update from UKMO at 1114 today (favours that cold zonal setup mentioned above):

    UK Outlook for Wednesday 11 Jan 2012 to Friday 20 Jan 2012:
    Northwestern Britain will see often rather unsettled and windy weather with spells of rain, particularly at first. Remaining areas will also see some rain or drizzle on occasion, but should be largely dry, with some patchy fog developing overnight and lasting into the mornings. Daytime temperatures will be largely mild, although there is an increasing chance of overnight frost towards the weekend. The weekend and following week are expected to see the unsettled weather in the northwest spread gradually southeastwards, with showers in the north of the country turning increasingly wintry. Temperatures should become nearer normal in most areas with overnight frosts expected, and there will be an increasing risk of gales or severe gales towards the far north and northwest of the UK later in the period.

    **********************************

    This appears to be backed up by Simon Keeling of weatheronline.co.uk

    "The 12Z run of the GFS model is highlighting the jet stream slipping southwards from Sunday 15th. This puts it over the south of the UK/northern France, placing the UK on the colder side of the jet and reducing temperatures.

    It's not a huge freeze but is enough to lower temperatures sufficiently for snow to fall in Scotland and perhaps at times in showers over northern England and Wales. Most of northern Europe (UK, Ireland and Scandinavia) will be into these cooler conditions with heavy snow at times through Scandinavia, and perhaps parts of northern Germany and Poland.

    Severe gales at times in northern France, the Low Countries and Germany, perhaps even southern England. I'm not jumping for joy at my forecast being vindicated just yet, but it is good to see models falling inline, although this is only the GFS for the moment."


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,548 ✭✭✭Harps


    Not much showing up on the main models for us but still plenty of encouraging signs there as you say, the Arctic Oscillation is clearly weakening with strong signs of a high penetrating the vortex over Alaska this week and extreme cold flooding well south into North America next week

    The coming 5 days look like a total write off for interesting weather but cold zonality gives plenty of interesting weather for Donegal so I'd gladly take a return to that if there's no major cold spell on the immediate horizon


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,667 ✭✭✭WolfeIRE


    GEFS and ECM both starting to pick up on the warming event in the strato. Both hinting at a cold zonal setup at present. The below chart would certainly deliver some mixed wintry and windy weather i.e. a real winter storm
    187469.png


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 845 ✭✭✭tylercollins


    WolfeIRE wrote: »
    The below chart would certainly deliver some mixed wintry and windy weather i.e. a real winter storm

    When you say a real winter storm, what are we actually talking? Blizzards? Thundersnow?


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,655 ✭✭✭delw


    WolfeIRE wrote: »
    GEFS and ECM both starting to pick up on the warming event in the strato. Both hinting at a cold zonal setup at present. The below chart would certainly deliver some mixed wintry and windy weather i.e. a real winter storm
    187469.png
    Chances of this coming off WolfeIRE,slim if not at all
    it's posted in FI thread aswell


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,667 ✭✭✭WolfeIRE


    When you say a real winter storm, what are we actually
    talking? Blizzards? Thundersnow?

    long way off Tyler. a mixture of everything if it did come off. precip would be
    mixed wintry but winds would be potentially severe.

    either way, i posted the chart as a sample of what the gefs is indicating for the period I
    spoke of in OP. I do not expect this specific scenario to come off on the date in question. Still, we are likely to see colder conditions come 16-18th or so.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 845 ✭✭✭tylercollins


    WolfeIRE wrote: »
    long way off Tyler. a mixture of everything if it did come off. precip would be
    mixed wintry but winds would be potentially severe.

    either way, i posted the chart as a sample of what the gefs is indicating for the period I
    spoke of in OP. I do not expect this specific scenario to come off on the date in question. Still, we are likely to see colder conditions come 16-18th or so.

    Yeah sort of thought that with it being 10 days out. Reason I asked was just to have an explanation of the chart just, trying to learn to reading these things lol

    But thanks for answering my question :)


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 8,632 ✭✭✭darkman2


    I think the OP has the right idea myself. Could be a few days yet before any changes are picked up in a meaningful way among the models. We do need something special to get out of the zonal phase we are in. The ensembles paint a brighter picture with the median temperature falling away from around the middle of the month. The teleconnections (AO/NAO) suggest a change is not that far off despite what looks, on the face of it right now, like a horror situation for those who want to see cold and snow.

    Definately worth while following this in the next week or two. In the short term nothing is changing except it will be turning a bit milder for next week and fairly settled.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,780 ✭✭✭✭ninebeanrows


    Cracking run from the 12z GFS for potential.

    Hinting a total pattern flip. Things in the next few days could get extremely interesting and whatever happens, with extreme strat warming forecast next week, the rest of winter( bar the next 7 days!) will be very different to the first half.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 8,632 ✭✭✭darkman2


    Following a pattern this morning best shown on the GEM. Wonderful potential there this morning. Interesting stuff indeed. If we see the artic high slipping south as early as 192hrs there could be some fun charts in the forecast in the days ahead.


    187502.png


    NOGAPS suggesting height rises over Scandinavia but not going the artic high route. Hint of undercutting.

    nogaps-0-180.png?07-17


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,461 ✭✭✭Musicman2000


    Cracking run from the 12z GFS for potential.

    Hinting a total pattern flip. Things in the next few days could get extremely interesting and whatever happens, with extreme strat warming forecast next week, the rest of winter( bar the next 7 days!) will be very different to the first half.

    Have to agree things are going to very intertesting, and im sure we will have some classic runs with the forecast start warming if the zonal winds switch in the start forecast which there is hints of, this might just give us a taste of last year, Still its just one run the models will still flip in the next few days.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,134 ✭✭✭✭maquiladora


    This place just might start to get very busy again in the next couple of weeks... ;)


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,310 ✭✭✭Trogdor


    Another nice one showing potential but still very far out for the moment
    187505.png

    EDIT: And another one
    187506.png

    Just flicking through the ensembles on the 12z gfs would certainly suggest that things are very uncertain and a big change may be on the way alright. A lot of runs, whether they would bring snow or not, are showing a change from the current pattern anyway.


  • Registered Users Posts: 356 ✭✭Strangegravy


    Will be fascinating to see if this winter runs the opposite way to last years, with any serious cold happening towards the second half of it... :D


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,789 ✭✭✭BEASTERLY


    :)
    187509.png


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  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 8,632 ✭✭✭darkman2


    Better alignment and amplification of the pattern on the ECM at 120hrs. Also note the lack of short waves (depressions) through the Greenland, Iceland, Norway (GIN) corridor. Key indication of a weakening of the Northern arm of the Jet Stream.

    Recm1201.gif

    I think this could be better for coldies then the 00z ECM.



    144hrs - so far, so good. Atlantic blocked and path for link with Artic High pressure as heights build North and Southerly diving Jet Stream.

    Recm1441.gif


    168hrs - there is the link. Now will we get the undercutting?

    Recm1681.gif


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,134 ✭✭✭✭maquiladora


    Thats quiet a pattern change on the 12Z ECM, regardless of the specifics.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 8,632 ✭✭✭darkman2


    Very significant pattern change. Very close. We just miss out in the end but it's the trend that matters at this range.



    144hrs is the key timeframe. That's when the real change occurs.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,015 ✭✭✭John.Icy


    Very promising runs tonight! Hopefully these signals continue too build, and if anything does arise in the coming month, that the situation to our SW is less pesky and the floodgates can be opened properly!


  • Registered Users Posts: 54 ✭✭oisingeogho


    How are the AO and NAO looking?
    Does it support it?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,467 ✭✭✭jirafa


    Saturday's 10-14 day outlook & early Feb thoughts 7/1/2012 From: WeatherSchool .

    Video Link .............. http://youtu.be/49pFaCTTHE0


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,150 ✭✭✭Deep Easterly


    How the ECMWF 12z Ensemble mean looks in FI:

    187535.jpg

    Definitely some distortion being picked up in the pattern further east, though ridging also further east than what is shown on the current op run.

    I hope that if any colder weather does happen that it won't be just cold with nothing else. I am all for big winter weather whether it be mild or cold but cold just for the sake of it being cold is nothing to celebrate imo.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,129 ✭✭✭Wild Bill


    Can't agree with that Deep!

    We've had maybe three air frosts here, nothing less than -2C since September. That is some sort of record for this location.

    We badly need some deep frosts to kill of the weeds and bugs and set things up for spring.

    Just checked: we've had two air frosts with the lowest -1C


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,129 ✭✭✭Wild Bill


    If the relentless westerlies keep fohning across the mountains for much longer we'll be getting the most frost-free winter in the history of Sandyford :(

    Not something to look forward to!


  • Registered Users Posts: 836 ✭✭✭derekon


    I personally find the ECMWF to be the most reliable model system.

    The 12z today looks very promising in terms of cold with cold air coming in over Ireland from Saturday 14th January (when I say cold, not very cold, just colder than the mild temps we will have next week!)

    Then from Sunday the 15th January, it looks likes some decent cold air will build in from the EAST!! :D

    http://www.meteociel.fr/modeles/ecmwf.php?ech=72&mode=0&map=0&type=0&archive=0


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  • Registered Users Posts: 6,017 ✭✭✭TheMilkyPirate


    Quite an unbelievable pattern change on the 12z runs today, Surprised there's not more activity here today. Obviously nothing to get excited about yet things can change in the blink of an eye. But the signs are beginning to get very ominous for some serious cold come the third quarter of this month and into february.

    18z will be very interesting.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 8,632 ✭✭✭darkman2


    18z looks good so far at 102 hrs. Everything again more amplified in the Atlantic. Reckon this should be a good run overall.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,693 ✭✭✭Redsunset


    Yes looking very interesting at the moment when comparing to the last run
    Edit stronger depression in the Atlantic is pulling heights further nw but will it just barge through because of this and spoil the party

    Edit gap opening up again for a rise


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 8,632 ✭✭✭darkman2


    162 hrs - excellent setup with the artic high meeting the Euro high and the really bitter air into the continent. Seriously cold stuff there.


    Rtavn1621.png

    Could do with a height rise over Greenland though...


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,693 ✭✭✭Redsunset


    Important link up from the Pacific high to create a negative AO
    187561.JPG


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,068 ✭✭✭Iancar29


    haha model watching has become like watching a football game! .. " GO on... GO ONN.... GGOOOOO OONNNNN!!! "

    Shocked-Student-Guy-Funny-Exam-Fail1-296x300.jpg

    Sadly i cant stay on and hav a closer look at all the variations... up at 5 for work .. :(


  • Registered Users Posts: 413 ✭✭aurora 527


    images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRXwa8-eqzowpzIJmaz6M9oy-Tqx-FDf11N_pjnsfEKlgka78rj

    Or... go on, go on , go on, gooo onnn


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,693 ✭✭✭Redsunset


    Very promising run. Very good trend, I'm not looking past the chart I posted above cause that is where things become interesting. Lets get this to happen first, if it does.


  • Registered Users Posts: 769 ✭✭✭davidsr20


    redsunset wrote: »
    Very promising run. Very good trend, I'm not looking past the chart I posted above cause that is where things become interesting. Lets get this to happen first, if it does.

    What do u think the chances are and what dates are we looking at?


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,548 ✭✭✭Harps


    Haven't seen any models since the 18z runs last night so quite a surprise to see tonight's offering, still massive uncertainty after the mild spell but cross model agreement is encouraging to see


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,150 ✭✭✭Deep Easterly


    Wild Bill wrote: »

    We badly need some deep frosts to kill of the weeds and bugs and set things up for spring.

    The deep frosts of last year also destroyed a lot of peoples plants and gardens as well; and not sure if directly related to last winter but even the leaves on the trees during this (or should I say last) year looked black and colourless so I don't think frosts really set us up for the following spring and summer (though I am far from an expert on plant life). :)


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 25,234 ✭✭✭✭Sponge Bob


    There was a big storm in late May/early June ( or was that 2 of them) that played puck with the foliage on the trees in Galway..really windburnt them. They were quite normal in mid May.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,204 ✭✭✭eskimocat


    I wonder if those were the charts that were causing MT the bother.. he mentioned something earlier in the week about a possible flip flop scenario, which, if it came down the side of the flip then we might see something building of a much colder nature... if it flopped, well the word speaks for itself..


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,150 ✭✭✭Deep Easterly


    Sponge Bob wrote: »
    There was a big storm in late May/early June ( or was that 2 of them) that played puck with the foliage on the trees in Galway..really windburnt them. They were quite normal in mid May.

    On a drive up through Mayo and Leitrim last summer, the trees and bushes up there were in an even worse state. No colour at all in them. Looked like a nuclear aftermath. We need an easterly summer, it's the only job for the wesht.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 399 ✭✭fizzycyst


    The deep frosts of last year also destroyed a lot of peoples plants and gardens as well; and not sure if directly related to last winter but even the leaves on the trees during this (or should I say last) year looked black and colourless so I don't think frosts really set us up for the following spring and summer (though I am far from an expert on plant life). :)

    Last year was unbelievable for growth though overall. Even in my own garden there was an abundance of fruit and veg. Apparently 2011 saw the highest national yield in over 20 years for barley and oats too.

    http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2011/1101/1224306845221.html


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 592 ✭✭✭hotwhiskey


    On a drive up through Mayo and Leitrim last summer, the trees and bushes up there were in an even worse state. No colour at all in them. Looked like a nuclear aftermath. We need an easterly summer, it's the only job for the wesht.

    Yes noticed that last year in these parts too. But i noticed on the 28 Dec last was the daffodils up two inches above the ground, now thats worrying.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,160 ✭✭✭nilhg


    fizzycyst wrote: »
    Last year was unbelievable for growth though overall. Even in my own garden there was an abundance of fruit and veg. Apparently 2011 saw the highest national yield in over 20 years for barley and oats too.

    http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2011/1101/1224306845221.html

    You'll notice that the article refers to Winter and Spring barley and Spring Oats, all (well not all but a lot) the Winter oats died of frostbite, the areas which had least snow were worst affected.

    http://www.teagasc.ie/news/2011/201103-03.pdf

    Around here there were Elder bushes killed in the hedges and even big clumps of Briars were burnt right back to the roots.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,129 ✭✭✭Wild Bill


    The deep frosts of last year also destroyed a lot of peoples plants and gardens as well; and not sure if directly related to last winter but even the leaves on the trees during this (or should I say last) year looked black and colourless so I don't think frosts really set us up for the following spring and summer (though I am far from an expert on plant life). :)

    It ridded the country (mostly) of the hideous cordylines (cabbage palms) - it reduced populations of various bugs enormously.

    All good stuff.

    IMG_1942-1.jpg

    http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/magazine/2011/0409/1224293914850.html

    I hate the f****** things! :mad:


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 25,234 ✭✭✭✭Sponge Bob


    We need an easterly summer, it's the only job for the wesht.

    Just to remind you , from the horses mouth :D

    http://www.met.ie/climate/monthlyBulletins/may11_lowres.pdf
    21st to 31st: A series of Atlantic depressions
    over or near the northwest coast of Ireland
    affected the country, the deepest of which
    were between the 21st and 26th. These
    brought a spell of very showery weather with
    unusually strong winds for May and very high
    seas off the west coast. While heavy falls were
    recorded at most stations, rainfall
    accumulations in the east were relatively low.
    Wind and elements: Mean windspeeds for
    the month of between 9 and 20 knots (17 and
    37km/h) were above normal everywhere and
    were the highest for May for at least 25 years
    generally. The month’s highest gust of 78
    knots (144km/h) was observed at Belmullet on
    the 23rd, the highest ever May gust in Ireland.

    NB. It was nothing to do with the freeze the previous winter. NB.

    I really noticed the tatty leaves when a warm spell hit around the beginning of June but the damage was caused in May.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,129 ✭✭✭Wild Bill


    Sponge Bob wrote: »

    I really noticed the tatty leaves when a warm spell hit around the beginning of June but the damage was caused in May.

    Correct.

    And the bounteous fruitful Autumn was due to the warm, dry and calm weather in April - that wondrous sunny rainless month :)


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