Dublin - Significant reduction in rents coming?

Hubertj · 16-05-2020 10:42pm

PommieBast wrote: »

A lot of these "new" lets are also asking for rents way above average. In fact from a quick glance I found this gem:

https://www.daft.ie/dublin/apartments-for-rent/dublin-2/dame-street-dublin-2-dublin-2024480/

Yea but you get a hair dryer included. I doubt there are many rentals in Dublin offering similar.

Muahahaha · 16-05-2020 10:47pm

Blut2 wrote: »

The argument that "landlords are leaving the market, this will negatively effect renters" just doesn't hold much water when the number of available properties to rent is at its highest point in the best part of a decade in the country. From a societal point of view it doesn't matter an inch how many individual landlords are in the market - it only matters how many properties are available to rent, at what price.

The data shows the number of available properties to rent was also steadily increasing year-on-year even pre-corona - so the anecdotal claims that "landlords are leaving the market" are either irrelevant in that context, or just simply incorrect.

This is why government policy, and legislation, is only going to get more and more restrictive for small scale landlords. There are far more voters who rent, or who have kids who rent, than there are voters who hold own rental properties in cities. And on top of that you have the lobbying influence of the large institutional investors - who are doing their best to drive the small scale landlords out of the market completely. Its a squeeze from both above and below on policy formation.

All good points though I think there is more than enough space in the market for both small landlords and institutional investors. The institutionals are likely only interested in Dublin and Cork properties to rent. I would think it is unlikely we'll be seeing them build blocks of apartments for rent in Athlone, Kerry or Sligo so the smaller scale landlord will still tend to dominate rental property in areas like these.

JimmyVik · 17-05-2020 12:56pm

A friend who owns an apartment in Swords just sent me a copy of a letter he received during the week from a REIT. Offering him €x to sell to them and could they send someone to speak to him about it.
He asked the neighboring owners who he knows and they all received the same letter. The REIT said tenants could stay if anyone had it rented out already.

An entire block in the same development was bought a few months ago by a REIT too. This complex is about 20 years old. Looks like the REITs are trying to take over the whole lot.

Ozark707 · 17-05-2020 2:28pm

JimmyVik wrote: »

A friend who owns an apartment in Swords just sent me a copy of a letter he received during the week from a REIT. Offering him €x to sell to them and could they send someone to speak to him about it.

Does he feel that €x is fair market value?

Claw Hammer · 17-05-2020 2:38pm

Blut2 wrote: »

The argument that "landlords are leaving the market, this will negatively effect renters" just doesn't hold much water when the number of available properties to rent is at its highest point in the best part of a decade in the country. From a societal point of view it doesn't matter an inch how many individual landlords are in the market - it only matters how many properties are available to rent, at what price.

The data shows the number of available properties to rent was also steadily increasing year-on-year even pre-corona - so the anecdotal claims that "landlords are leaving the market" are either irrelevant in that context, or just simply incorrect.

This is why government policy, and legislation, is only going to get more and more restrictive for small scale landlords. There are far more voters who rent, or who have kids who rent, than there are voters who hold own rental properties in cities. And on top of that you have the lobbying influence of the large institutional investors - who are doing their best to drive the small scale landlords out of the market completely. Its a squeeze from both above and below on policy formation.

there are landlords leaving the market. Some big institutional landlords are increasing their footprint. There is also a high rate of household formation, so the number of households is increasing and the proportion of households renting is also rising. It has been noted by agents selling property that there more landlords selling than intending landlords buying.

Muahahaha · 17-05-2020 2:52pm

Claw Hammer wrote: »

there are landlords leaving the market. Some big institutional landlords are increasing their footprint. There is also a high rate of household formation, so the number of households is increasing and the proportion of households renting is also rising. It has been noted by agents selling property that there more landlords selling than intending landlords buying.

Is there any hard data behind this? I remember there was stats on how many single property landlords are in Ireland about 10 years back but cant remember the figure, I think it was 600,000 but am not sure on that.

Also you've got to remember as well that lots of cash buyers snapped up bargains in the crash when the government gave a CGT exemption. Some were never intending to hold for the long term, once they held for seven years they could then sell with no liability to CGT. I know of a few people in that scenario who made excellent capital returns with their investments doubling in the space of around 8 years, then they saw the peak coming and decided to get out.

Claw Hammer · 17-05-2020 3:05pm

There is plenty of hard data. The CSO publishes statistics on household formation rates. Agents report on their sales. Some landlords bought because of the CGT exemption but this was more than matched by those leaving the sector. The build to rent sector has been the main source of an increase in the number of units to let, well ahead of the BTL segment. A few accidental forced landlords have also come into the sector but most will get out of it when possible.
Rents were on a downward trend before COVID, which will undoubtedly cause rents to drop further and faster.
The effect will be to drive more smaller landlords out of the sector and increase the dominance of the the big institutional landlords.
The biggies will get the 4% cap lifted on the basis it is no longer needed and when the tide turns after that, it will be hold on to your horses as they gouge every last penny out of tenants.

Blut2 · 17-05-2020 5:37pm

And where is the hard data that shows the landlords leaving the market in large numbers? Link us to it please if you're so familiar with it.

The only hard data this thread has seen so far are the statistics that show the number of available properties to rent going up year on year every year - and now being at a decade long high.

So without data that shows otherwise all we can assume is the claims landlords are leaving are purely anecdotal - because there are proven more and more rentals available in the market every year, which would suggest the exact opposite.

17-05-2020 5:46pm

This article reporting on RTB report on LLs leaving market, granted it is just over a year old.

https://www.google.ie/amp/s/www.rte.ie/amp/1016879/

Claw Hammer · 18-05-2020 9:35am

Blut2 wrote: »

So without data that shows otherwise all we can assume is the claims landlords are leaving are purely anecdotal - because there are proven more and more rentals available in the market every year, which would suggest the exact opposite.

There are more rentals but not more landlords. Some build to rent developments have several hundred units.

The_Conductor · 18-05-2020 10:43am

Blut2 wrote: »

And where is the hard data that shows the landlords leaving the market in large numbers? Link us to it please if you're so familiar with it.

The only hard data this thread has seen so far are the statistics that show the number of available properties to rent going up year on year every year - and now being at a decade long high.

So without data that shows otherwise all we can assume is the claims landlords are leaving are purely anecdotal - because there are proven more and more rentals available in the market every year, which would suggest the exact opposite.

Its all in the RTB annual report (the 2018 report was published in July 2019 and is available to download from the RTB website here

Both absolute numbers of landlords, and absolute numbers of properties available to rent- have consistently fallen for the past 3 years- with a small blip in Q1/Q2 2020 which is more than accountable by non-nationals who were renting and who left the country due to the Covid-19 crisis.

Its not anecdotal at all- its carefully measured in the RTB annual report.

The 2019 report (up to 31st Dec 2019) is not due to be published until 17th July- and obviously the mayhem of 2020 won't feature in official reports until sometime in July 2021.

Hubertj · 18-05-2020 10:55am

The_Conductor wrote: »

Its all in the RTB annual report (the 2018 report was published in July 2019 and is available to download from the RTB website here

Both absolute numbers of landlords, and absolute numbers of properties available to rent- have consistently fallen for the past 3 years- with a small blip in Q1/Q2 2020 which is more than accountable by non-nationals who were renting and who left the country due to the Covid-19 crisis.

Its not anecdotal at all- its carefully measured in the RTB annual report.

The 2019 report (up to 31st Dec 2019) is not due to be published until 17th July- and obviously the mayhem of 2020 won't feature in official reports until sometime in July 2021.

You should know better than to come in here with facts

awec · 18-05-2020 3:00pm

I am pretty sure it's been for longer than 3 years. I can't be bothered looking for the stats now, but I am pretty sure that the number of landlords has been falling every year since the recovery from the crash started, which I at least partly attributed to reluctant landlords offloading properties once their negative equity was sorted out.

Muahahaha · 18-05-2020 4:59pm

Whats the percentage though? The article posted above is saying 1,778 landlords left the market over 3 years. The RTB report is saying that there is a total of 173,197 landlords in the country. 1,778 of that number is just slightly over 1% of all landlords leaving the market and thats over the space of 3 years.

Slightly over 1% of landlords leaving the market over the course of three years doesnt sound like an exodus to me. That could easily be explained as reluctant LLs getting out when their negative equity finished.

Blut2 · 18-05-2020 5:51pm

The_Conductor wrote: »

Its all in the RTB annual report (the 2018 report was published in July 2019 and is available to download from the RTB website here

Both absolute numbers of landlords, and absolute numbers of properties available to rent- have consistently fallen for the past 3 years- with a small blip in Q1/Q2 2020 which is more than accountable by non-nationals who were renting and who left the country due to the Covid-19 crisis.

Its not anecdotal at all- its carefully measured in the RTB annual report.

The 2019 report (up to 31st Dec 2019) is not due to be published until 17th July- and obviously the mayhem of 2020 won't feature in official reports until sometime in July 2021.

Thanks for the link.

As Muahahaha outlines, the figures from the RTB annual report show a decrease of approx 0.38% a year in the number of landlords over the last 3 years.

I'm not sure how anyone could claim that that data proves the claims that "landlords are leaving the market in large numbers" that some posters were making on the last page.

If anything it shows the exact opposite - the number of landlords is barely declining, and is close to standing still.

rightmove · 18-05-2020 6:16pm

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/small-time-landlords-are-being-forced-out-of-market-37126402.html

I would guess that 50% of the small LL's that left in the last few years feel they were forced to do so by rtb and rpz measures (caught under market). The result was higher rents (since only those would truly focused on it as business are left) and Air bnb.

shenanagans · 18-05-2020 6:26pm

Muahahaha wrote: »

Whats the percentage though? The article posted above is saying 1,778 landlords left the market over 3 years. The RTB report is saying that there is a total of 173,197 landlords in the country. 1,778 of that number is just slightly over 1% of all landlords leaving the market and thats over the space of 3 years.

Slightly over 1% of landlords leaving the market over the course of three years doesnt sound like an exodus to me. That could easily be explained as reluctant LLs getting out when their negative equity finished.

Those statistics don't reflect the huge number of landlords that left traditional rental market and went into short term letting (Airbnb) etc.

Muahahaha · 18-05-2020 6:41pm

rightmove wrote: »

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/small-time-landlords-are-being-forced-out-of-market-37126402.html

From the article

Small-scale 'mom and pop' landlords are leaving the market in droves, pushed out by big international funds, says a new report on the landlord sector in Ireland.

Despite rents running higher than in the boom years, twice as many private landlords are now leaving the market as are entering it.

A transactions survey undertaken over the last year by 90 members of the Irish Professional Auctioneers and Valuers (IPAV) shows that 1,022 landlords sold private investment properties while at the same time just 452 bought properties.

Then from the RTB report, page 47

Percentage Change in Landlords with registered tenancies
2012 +16.1%
2013 -15.7%
2014 -10.5%
2015 +6.3%
2016 +2.9%
2017 -0.7%
2018 -0.5%

That gives a total of 2.1% of landlords leaving the market from 2012 to 2018.. Yet from the article above data released by an estate agent body claims they "are leaving the market in droves". Many articles have claimed the same but the RTBs stats do not bear this out.

Then you have the tenancies registered. In 2012 this was 254,434 but by 2018 it had climbed to 307,348. In the space of those 7 years the number of tenancies increased by a total of 17.4%.

Muahahaha · 18-05-2020 6:46pm

shenanagans wrote: »

Those statistics don't reflect the huge number of landlords that left traditional rental market and went into short term letting (Airbnb) etc.

Do landlords using Airbnb to let out their properties have to register that as a tenancy with the RTB

I dont think they do. If they leave the tenant market for STL then naturally that is reflected in them no longer registering a tenancy with the RTB which then shows up in the RTB stats.

shenanagans · 18-05-2020 7:07pm

Muahahaha wrote: »

Do landlords using Airbnb to let out their properties have to register that as a tenancy with the RTB I dont think they do. If they leave the tenant market for STL then naturally that is reflected in them no longer registering a tenancy with the RTB which then shows up in the RTB stats.

Plenty of LLs have properties let to agencies/people who use them for Airbnb.

Graham · 18-05-2020 7:21pm

yup. R2R or rent-to-rent. There's some fella selling training online for it, how to build your own AirBnB empire type of thing.

What could possibly go wrong.

The_Conductor · 18-05-2020 7:54pm

Muahahaha wrote: »

rightmove wrote: »

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/small-time-landlords-are-being-forced-out-of-market-37126402.html

From the article

Then from the RTB report, page 47

Percentage Change in Landlords with registered tenancies
2012 +16.1%
2013 -15.7%
2014 -10.5%
2015 +6.3%
2016 +2.9%
2017 -0.7%
2018 -0.5%

That gives a total of 2.1% of landlords leaving the market from 2012 to 2018.. Yet from the article above data released by an estate agent body claims they "are leaving the market in droves". Many articles have claimed the same but the RTBs stats do not bear this out.

Then you have the tenancies registered. In 2012 this was 254,434 but by 2018 it had climbed to 307,348. In the space of those 7 years the number of tenancies increased by a total of 17.4%.

The numbers are masked by far greater compliance levels among landlords. Back in 2010-2012- there were significant issues with landlords not registering tenancies (for numerous reasons, including trying to avoid tax- but also out of an expectation that they wouldn't get caught). This lack of compliance has progressively tightened up- particularly among smaller landlords- who traditionally played the system like a fine fiddle..........

The RTB themselves have stated as much- and it has been mentioned by the Minister (congratulating the RTB for tightening up and getting the sector into a better regulatory position).

So- 'standing still' can in fact be masking a multitude of ills.

beauf · 18-05-2020 8:03pm

Muahahaha wrote: »

.... The RTB report is saying that there is a total of 173,197 landlords in the country....

I'd like to see the figure for total numbers of LL from 2006 to 2020.

I suspect its down massively from the peak.

Population massively increased.

Heading into a recession, likely to drop LL numbers massively, like it did last time.

I posted figures. Because I can't stand over them, I removed them. The PRTB figures seems to have changed since I lasted posted about them.

The_Conductor · 18-05-2020 8:06pm

beauf wrote: »

Very hard to find these figures. Why?

Because politically it suits to paint landlords as the bogeymen of the sector- whereas in actual fact its been government policy to drive them from the sector in favour of large institutional investors.

beauf · 18-05-2020 8:09pm

The_Conductor wrote: »

Because politically it suits to paint landlords as the bogeymen of the sector- whereas in actual fact its been government policy to drive them from the sector in favour of large institutional investors.

Exactly. I should have made that a rhetorical question. Sry.

Muahahaha · 18-05-2020 8:58pm

The_Conductor wrote: »

The numbers are masked by far greater compliance levels among landlords. Back in 2010-2012- there were significant issues with landlords not registering tenancies (for numerous reasons, including trying to avoid tax- but also out of an expectation that they wouldn't get caught). This lack of compliance has progressively tightened up- particularly among smaller landlords- who traditionally played the system like a fine fiddle..........

The RTB themselves have stated as much- and it has been mentioned by the Minister (congratulating the RTB for tightening up and getting the sector into a better regulatory position).

So- 'standing still' can in fact be masking a multitude of ills.

Yeah but that is 2010-2012 whereas the stats in the RTB report cover 2012-2018.

Numberous newspaper articles have said that landlords are leaving the market in droves, the IAPV survey said as much and it hass been claimed on this forum hundreds if not thousands of times over the last few years. Yet the official RTB stats are not bearing that out- as said from 2012 to 2018 there was a 2.1% reduction in landlords but an increase in tenancies of 17.4%.

Furthermore the RTB report says that single property landlords control some 70% of the market and this figure has remained largely consistent-

Landlord Profile
The profile of landlords in the sector has remained
consistent with the majority (70.5%) managing just one
tenancy. There has been much discussion on large scale
institutional landlords and their role in the rental sector.
RTB data shows that tenancy registrations by large scale
landlords (including individuals and companies) in the
rental market is still limited at approximately 4%.

To me that says two things-
1) the effect of the institutional investors is largely overstated as they control only 4% of all tenancies nationwide
2) The idea that landlords are leaving the market "in droves" is fake news, the stats simply do not bear this out. Anything else apart from this raw data is speculation and supposition by vested interests such as the estate agents.

Muahahaha · 18-05-2020 9:02pm

shenanagans wrote: »

Plenty of LLs have properties let to agencies/people who use them for Airbnb.

But why would they be registering those with the RTB when they are a STL and therefore dont fall under RTB jurisdiction? Can you show me where the RTB states landlords have to register with them when their property is used for STLs?

shenanagans · 18-05-2020 9:04pm

Muahahaha wrote: »

rightmove wrote: »

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/small-time-landlords-are-being-forced-out-of-market-37126402.html

From the article

Then from the RTB report, page 47

Percentage Change in Landlords with registered tenancies
2012 +16.1%
2013 -15.7%
2014 -10.5%
2015 +6.3%
2016 +2.9%
2017 -0.7%
2018 -0.5%

That gives a total of 2.1% of landlords leaving the market from 2012 to 2018.. Yet from the article above data released by an estate agent body claims they "are leaving the market in droves". Many articles have claimed the same but the RTBs stats do not bear this out.

Then you have the tenancies registered. In 2012 this was 254,434 but by 2018 it had climbed to 307,348. In the space of those 7 years the number of tenancies increased by a total of 17.4%.

Why the major housing crisis in recent years so??

We have to ask how accurate these statistics are.

Muahahaha · 18-05-2020 9:52pm

shenanagans wrote: »

Why the major housing crisis in recent years so??

We have to ask how accurate these statistics are.

Because demand has outstripped supply and there are more people renting now at any point in the history of the state and by a long mile too.

What makes you think they are inaccurate. Its simply the RTB saying how many landlords and tenancies are in the market from 2012 to 2018. Are you saying the RTB just make these statistics up or something ?

shenanagans · 18-05-2020 11:44pm

Muahahaha wrote: »

Because demand has outstripped supply and there are more people renting now at any point in the history of the state and by a long mile too.

What makes you think they are inaccurate. Its simply the RTB saying how many landlords and tenancies are in the market from 2012 to 2018. Are you saying the RTB just make these statistics up or something ?

I'd pay no attention to the increase in tenancies. I'd say it better compliance by LLs registering tenancies they may not have 10 years ago. More and more are obeying regulation.

Lots of tenancies registered are also not to long term tenants..... It's to people running Airbnb type businesses. IMO.

2019 data will be interesting.

DubCount · 19-05-2020 8:05am

Just some comments on RTB figures.

1) They are only based on RTB registrations so don't take any account of Airbnb etc.
2) A couple of years ago, they changed their registration statistics to include housing agencies in their figures. This means they compare apples and oranges in their stats on number of landlords/registrations. In 2012, they only counted private landlords. In 2019, they count private landlords and housing agencies.
3) As the years have gone by, the RTB have cracked down on Landlords not registered with them. The figures in 2012 exclude a lot more unregistered landlords than is the case in 2019.

Even allowing for the understatement of the fall in Landlords reported by the RTB (due to 2 and 3 above), its incredible there is any fall during a period when rents have risen significantly and demand exceeded supply. The answer - too much concentration on tenant rights with no counterbalance has driven away lots of investors and potential investors.

beauf · 19-05-2020 9:47am

Thanks for that. I was looking back old comments and couldn't understand why the figures seem higher now than in the past. Now we know why.

Seems like we've gone from 250k to 180k and while I can't find it now I think we lost a massive amount of LL after the last crash and we never regained those numbers.

That you can't get clear data says a lot.

Doesn't really matter. All that's important is the availablity and price. That is telling you all you need to know.

JimmyVik · 19-05-2020 10:57am

I wouldnt believe a word from the RTB about their stats.
They have shown a willingness over the years to massage the figures to suit a narrative and as such they cannot be trusted as a source of information.

shenanagans · 19-05-2020 2:09pm

DubCount wrote: »

Just some comments on RTB figures.

1) They are only based on RTB registrations so don't take any account of Airbnb etc.
2) A couple of years ago, they changed their registration statistics to include housing agencies in their figures. This means they compare apples and oranges in their stats on number of landlords/registrations. In 2012, they only counted private landlords. In 2019, they count private landlords and housing agencies.
3) As the years have gone by, the RTB have cracked down on Landlords not registered with them. The figures in 2012 exclude a lot more unregistered landlords than is the case in 2019.

Even allowing for the understatement of the fall in Landlords reported by the RTB (due to 2 and 3 above), its incredible there is any fall during a period when rents have risen significantly and demand exceeded supply. The answer - too much concentration on tenant rights with no counterbalance has driven away lots of investors and potential investors.

Rubbish. #1 incorrect. Plenty of LLs let a property to companies/individuals and register with RTB......that company/individual then using it as an Airbnb.

So it appears as a tenancy with RTB but no long-term tenancy really exists.

JimmyVik · 19-05-2020 2:21pm

shenanagans wrote: »

Rubbish. #1 incorrect. Plenty of LLs let a property to companies/individuals and register with RTB......that company/individual then using it as an Airbnb.

So it appears as a tenancy with RTB but no long-term tenancy really exists.

I think thats highly unlikely tbh.

Maybe it might happen but it would be extremely rare.
Where did you find that out? I love to read it.

shenanagans · 19-05-2020 6:16pm

JimmyVik wrote: »

I think thats highly unlikely tbh.

Maybe it might happen but it would be extremely rare.
Where did you find that out? I love to read it.

There's loads of people gone into Airbnb as a full time job/business in recent years. They rent out several properties and then put them on Airbnb. Full time job managing them all.

Landlords may not even be aware their property is on Airbnb. Or they know and don't care as long as rent is coming in.

Claw Hammer · 19-05-2020 9:21pm

shenanagans wrote: »

There's loads of people gone into Airbnb as a full time job/business in recent years. They rent out several properties and then put them on Airbnb. Full time job managing them all.

Landlords may not even be aware their property is on Airbnb. Or they know and don't care as long as rent is coming in.

There is no way the landlord wouldn't know. In all those cases there is a commercial lease which wouldn't come under the RTB.

Ozark707 · 19-05-2020 9:44pm

Claw Hammer wrote: »

There is no way the landlord wouldn't know. In all those cases there is a commercial lease which wouldn't come under the RTB.

Was the poster not suggesting that someone rents an apt from a LL. Then this tenant just flips it up on AirBnB and manages it themselves. The LL still gets the monthly rent but unless the mmgt company get onto he/she then they will possibly be in the dark?

shenanagans · 19-05-2020 9:47pm

Claw Hammer wrote: »

There is no way the landlord wouldn't know. In all those cases there is a commercial lease which wouldn't come under the RTB.

Vast majority would be well aware. But the councils couldn't proof that.

shenanagans · 19-05-2020 9:51pm

Ozark707 wrote: »

Was the poster not suggesting that someone rents an apt from a LL. Then this tenant just flips it up on AirBnB and manages it themselves. The LL still gets the monthly rent but unless the mmgt company get onto he/she then they will possibly be in the dark?

I'd say some older landlords could be unaware. People that don't use Airbnb. Wouldn't browse through Airbnb lettings in area etc.

Irrespective. The council couldn't prove whether the LL knew or not.

20-05-2020 7:24am

Claw Hammer wrote: »

There is no way the landlord wouldn't know. In all those cases there is a commercial lease which wouldn't come under the RTB.

That is an interesting point, I wouldn’t have thought a commercial lease could be applied to a residential property. I also doubt if you can choose for a tenancy lease in a residential property not to be covered by the RTB.

Personally, I would associate the phrase “commercial let” in a residential property with letting the property to the likes of Google who then let employees use it. But it would probably still be a tenancy covered by the RTB with Google as the tenant.

JimmyVik · 20-05-2020 10:12am

shenanagans wrote: »

There's loads of people gone into Airbnb as a full time job/business in recent years. They rent out several properties and then put them on Airbnb. Full time job managing them all.

Landlords may not even be aware their property is on Airbnb. Or they know and don't care as long as rent is coming in.

How many though?

JimmyVik · 20-05-2020 10:14am

Any new stats form the people who were keeping tabs on increases in properties for rent?

Ozark707 · 20-05-2020 11:16am

JimmyVik wrote: »

Any new stats form the people who were keeping tabs on increases in properties for rent?

The best source I have come across is this link which is updated on the 1st of every month

https://bl.ocks.org/pinsterdev/raw/234b4a5310a14a32e080/

This has STL's removed I believe so it is the truest barometer I find to gauge available supply for non STL's. I don't think Daft have a filter option to remove 'Weekly' lets which means it is harder to track an accurate number on non STL's on the market.

What this doesn't account for however is the multiple listings under one ad, e.g. Capital docks, so in effect supply is likely to be far higher than what you get in this link.

Claw Hammer · 20-05-2020 11:28am

Dav010 wrote: »

I also doubt if you can choose for a tenancy lease in a residential property not to be covered by the RTB.

You have got to be joking. Almost every apartment owner has a lease with their management company which is not covered by the RTB.

JimmyVik · 20-05-2020 11:39am

Claw Hammer wrote: »

You have got to be joking. Almost every apartment owner has a lease with their management company which is not covered by the RTB.

I dont believe a lease bewteen the council and an owner requires RTB either.
Probably loads more situations too.

20-05-2020 12:39pm

Claw Hammer wrote: »

You have got to be joking. Almost every apartment owner has a lease with their management company which is not covered by the RTB.

Cop on. Were you posting about a lease between a property owner and a MC when you said that most leases are commercial type between property owner and a person renting a property to short let on Airbnb?

If you rent a residential property as a tenant, you don’t get to chose if the RTB covers the lease if it is a tenancy.

Claw Hammer · 20-05-2020 1:16pm

Dav010 wrote: »

Cop on. Were you posting about a lease between a property owner and a MC when you said that most leases are commercial type between property owner and a person renting a property to short let on Airbnb?

If you rent a residential property as a tenant, you don’t get to chose if the RTB covers the lease if it is a tenancy.

The lease between the owner and a person going to carry on air bnb will be commercial since the tenant won't be residing in the property and the clauses normally found in a residential lease won't be suitable and because of the insurance implications.
An owner of an apartment rents a dwelling from the management company under a lease. at one time these leases were subject to the RTB.

double jobbing · 20-05-2020 1:28pm

runswithascript wrote: »

Shame on you. You are a major part of the property problem in our society.

I hope we will soon have a government here that will restrict or even better yet ban Airbnb completely, just like these places:

I don't even understand how AirBNB ever even got off the ground.

If, in the pre mobile app era, I hung around Dublin Airport with a sign inviting people to pay to stay in a 5 bed house I had access to it wouldn't be long before the authorities were demanding fire inspections, planning permission, liability insurance etc for me to operate.

I can't understand how AirBNB was ever any different.

Can't even imagine the appeal from a tourism point of view. Who wants to go on holidays to stay in a house? Imagine booking an AirBnB for Paddys weekend and the owner fails to show up for whatever reason. Stuck sleeping in Busaras or the airport with your luggage for the night because you tried saving a few quid.

20-05-2020 1:48pm

double jobbing wrote: »

I don't even understand how AirBNB ever even got off the ground.

If, in the pre mobile app era, I hung around Dublin Airport with a sign inviting people to pay to stay in a 5 bed house I had access to it wouldn't be long before the authorities were demanding fire inspections, planning permission, liability insurance etc for me to operate.

I can't understand how AirBNB was ever any different.

Can't even imagine the appeal from a tourism point of view. Who wants to go on holidays to stay in a house? Imagine booking an AirBnB for Paddys weekend and the owner fails to show up for whatever reason. Stuck sleeping in Busaras or the airport with your luggage for the night because you tried saving a few quid.

Try it. Then write about it. Both Hosts and Guests are reviewed so chances of you being stuck in Busaras are slim indeed.

Dublin - Significant reduction in rents coming?

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