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what is the burning passion for having an open fire?

1…45679

Comments

  • #402
    Andy From Sligo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,841 ✭✭✭✭Andy From Sligo


    Ush1 wrote: »
    Damp is more to do with ventilation than heating. Heating can actually make moisture build up worse.

    yep - condensation and all that as the heat hits the cold air and cold walls etc isnt it ? - beads of condensation and damp and if it doesnt evaporate or dry out then it turns into mould spores - is that right?


  • #403
    Andy From Sligo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,841 ✭✭✭✭Andy From Sligo


    Discodog wrote: »
    I have a small stove burning a high quality smokeless fuel. Easy to light, no smoke, no soot & really economical.

    smokeless coal is it?


  • #404
    sbsquarepants
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,812 ✭✭✭✭sbsquarepants


    Graces7 wrote: »

    Electric heating is soulless and boring.

    Much like myself :D


  • #405
    Andy From Sligo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,841 ✭✭✭✭Andy From Sligo


    BIGT4464 wrote: »
    The very recent new builds near me have no chimney. Its the way to go.

    when you think of all the other benefits apart fromheat getting wasted going up the chimney or air coming down the chimney into the house it does make sense on modern builds.

    With chimneys you can get leaks around the flashing, the plaster render can fall off the stack and needs painting when house gets a lick of paint, they look 'old fashioned' on a modern house, there is no risk of a chimney fire if you havent got a chimney, the modern heating is so hot and efficient now there is no need for a chimney/fireplace , take away a chimney & fireplace and the room(s) inside the house can be made bigger and space in the room not taken up with imposing chimney and fireplace


  • #406
    Graces7
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,634 ✭✭✭✭Graces7


    Andy From Sligo wrote: »
    yep - condensation and all that as the heat hits the cold air and cold walls etc isnt it ? - beads of condensation and damp and if it doesnt evaporate or dry out then it turns into mould spores - is that right?

    An open fire eats damp


  • #407
    air
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,830 ✭✭✭air


    Ubbquittious wrote: »
    No it's there for the whole year (albeit only pm2.5 in the screenshot, pm10 and o3 are green all year round).

    I don't know the professor and I suspect he might not even care about a pet project he did back in the day. What strikes me is how there appears to be a certain base load of pollution even in very remote places. Have a look on waqi.info if you want to know more about the colours

    OK, I had a look at that website and it pulls the data (badly, lots of gaps) from EPA monitoring stations.
    The data is available directly from the EPA website with much better quality.
    Here is the one for Bray which you selected.

    A good summary of the state of play is the 2018 report on air quality in Ireland.

    A few highlights:

    What are the main sources of PM in Ireland?
    In Ireland the main source – especially of the smaller and more dangerous PM2.5 particles – is solid fuel burning for home heating.
    Fairly clear cut I think.

    This PM air pollution is then breathed in and leads to the health effects described in section 1. This direct link between solid fuel burning in Ireland and PM has been established both by EPA monitoring and EPA‐funded research projects such as the SAPPHIRE project and AEROSOURCE project.
    So no pet projects at play here.

    Under the PM2.5 heading
    The WHO air quality guideline daily limit value was exceeded at 17 monitoring stations for a total of 103 days.

    Modelling of PM2.5 Concentrations in Dublin
    It clearly indicates that we are above the WHO guideline values for PM2.5 across the urban area of Dublin


    What can be done?
    Ultimately, the best way to reduce PM in Ireland is to move to cleaner ways of heating our homes. This will dramatically reduce our PM levels in ambient air in Ireland, leading to much improved health outcomes for people. This is particularly important for at‐risk individuals, such as young children and those with breathing problems.

    I could go on but probably best to read the report directly. It's well written in plain English and has good infographics etc.

    So our taxes are going to fund the EPA and they are saying that we need to eliminate solid fuel burning in order to improve public health.
    We are all part of this public whose health is impacted!

    Does anyone have a realistic argument against a ban?


  • #408
    sbsquarepants
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,812 ✭✭✭✭sbsquarepants


    Andy From Sligo wrote: »
    when you think of all the other benefits apart fromheat getting wasted going up the chimney or air coming down the chimney into the house it does make sense on modern builds.

    Provided the ventilation is up to scratch. I have a fireplace but i don't light the fire, so recently i put one of those balloons up the chimney to block it, thinking it would save a few bob on the heating. Getting the decorations down from the attic for Christmas and there's water dripping from the underside of the roofing felt, roof joists are soaking wet in places.

    The only change in the house is the balloon, the attic is very well insulated (and i thought well ventilated) never had any problem with condensation up there until now.


  • #409
    sbsquarepants
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,812 ✭✭✭✭sbsquarepants


    Graces7 wrote: »
    An open fire eats damp

    It's not so much that the fire eats damp as the big hole in the roof sucks out a lot of moisture laden hot air, which is then replaced by less moist cold air from outside.


  • #410
    Andy From Sligo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,841 ✭✭✭✭Andy From Sligo


    Graces7 wrote: »
    Many of us cannot afford that option.

    I enjoy the whole experience of lighting and tending a living fire. Electric heating is soulless and boring.

    it convenient (for todays busy lifestyle LOL :D ) dont have to put in effort to get maximum output or sit watching the fire making sure it dont go out


  • #411
    Calhoun
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,447 ✭✭✭Calhoun


    I see the topic of burning wood and fire is how the rural TDs plan to keep themselves in government.


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  • #412
    Andy From Sligo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,841 ✭✭✭✭Andy From Sligo


    Graces7 wrote: »
    An open fire eats damp

    you ask a heating engineer and you will get that central heating radiators are the dryest heat you can get - even dries out the air so much that it can irritate your throat and dry up your mucus

    i think electric fan heaters are next .

    in the old days , the older gas /lpg heaters / boilers used to actually put moisture into the air inside the house - calor super sers used to for sure.

    These days oil and gas boilers (inside ones) have whats called 'balanced' flue systems and fan assisted flues.- air drawn in from the outside. Burnt inside the boiler then expelled through the same flue the fresh air was coming in . The outside air for the boiler doesnt even enter the room that the boiler is situated in . (say if it were in a kitchen or utility room like)


  • #413
    Andy From Sligo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,841 ✭✭✭✭Andy From Sligo


    air wrote: »
    OK, I had a look at that website and it pulls the data (badly, lots of gaps) from EPA monitoring stations.
    The data is available directly from the EPA website with much better quality.
    Here is the one for Bray which you selected.

    A good summary of the state of play is the 2018 report on air quality in Ireland.

    A few highlights:

    What are the main sources of PM in Ireland?
    In Ireland the main source – especially of the smaller and more dangerous PM2.5 particles – is solid fuel burning for home heating.
    Fairly clear cut I think.

    This PM air pollution is then breathed in and leads to the health effects described in section 1. This direct link between solid fuel burning in Ireland and PM has been established both by EPA monitoring and EPA‐funded research projects such as the SAPPHIRE project and AEROSOURCE project.
    So no pet projects at play here.

    Under the PM2.5 heading
    The WHO air quality guideline daily limit value was exceeded at 17 monitoring stations for a total of 103 days.

    Modelling of PM2.5 Concentrations in Dublin
    It clearly indicates that we are above the WHO guideline values for PM2.5 across the urban area of Dublin


    What can be done?
    Ultimately, the best way to reduce PM in Ireland is to move to cleaner ways of heating our homes. This will dramatically reduce our PM levels in ambient air in Ireland, leading to much improved health outcomes for people. This is particularly important for at‐risk individuals, such as young children and those with breathing problems.

    I could go on but probably to read the report directly. It's well written in plain English and has good infographics etc.

    So our taxes are going to fund the EPA and they are saying that we need to eliminate solid fuel burning in order to improve public health.
    We are all part of this public whose health is impacted!

    Does anyone have a realistic argument against a ban?


    blimey there is not even an EPA station in Sligo and its one of the sites where there really needs to be one!


  • #414
    Calhoun
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,447 ✭✭✭Calhoun


    Andy From Sligo wrote: »
    I'd say those who can afford it should look into getting some solar panels on the ol roof - I know we dont have blistering sun ever here in Ireland , even in the summer, but modern solar panels are supposed to be really efficient still now , even on cloudy days - no, i wouldnt say it would mean you wouldnt have to use the oil central heating at all ever again but as a 'supplement' it sounds good to me, even if its only enough to heat up the domestic hot water its something , and that little less oil you have to use so thats a good thing.

    I think what puts a lot of people off with solar is when they are told "in x amount of years they will pay for themselves and you will see the benifit" - it more than likely puts people off because they might want to see benefits in a few months say and paid back in that shorter time instead - it would me.

    I dont know much about these heat pump things at all when I hear people go on about them, I shall have to do a bit of research on them.

    If we want to change behaviors the government needs to invest in it and make it easy for people to do so.

    Solar panels/PV cells are expensive enough particularly for older people.

    As far as heat recovery is concerned there is a significant outlay and your looking at least 10-15K depending on the size of the house.

    People are put off by cost, I say this as someone who has PV cells on the roof, underfloor heating and a house that is near passive.


  • #415
    Andy From Sligo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,841 ✭✭✭✭Andy From Sligo


    sbsquarepants wrote: »
    Provided the ventilation is up to scratch. I have a fireplace but i don't light the fire, so recently i put one of those balloons up the chimney to block it, thinking it would save a few bob on the heating. Getting the decorations down from the attic for Christmas and there's water dripping from the underside of the roofing felt, roof joists are soaking wet in places.

    The only change in the house is the balloon, the attic is very well insulated (and i thought well ventilated) never had any problem with condensation up there until now.

    hmm thats interesting. - very well ventilated is it? . and its the breathable felt is it underside the roof tiles? - how about the ceilings themselves , is there good lagging of at least about 6" getting up above the ceilings? - could it be that warm air is getting past the ceilings up into the colder loft now which would have been warm with the fire going and heat going up the chimney stack into the loft?

    also , dont be duped that its wet like that all the time up there. I have had it where I have seen some droplets of water on the felt and wood when I have gone to get the xmas decs down from loft and all it has been is just that the hot air from the landing has gone up into the loft because I have had the loft door open whilst I have been getting the decs down and the heat has got up into the freezing cold loft (which it should be) whilst I have had to loft door open and formed condensation on the felt and wood and joists because the loft door is open


  • #416
    Andy From Sligo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,841 ✭✭✭✭Andy From Sligo


    Calhoun wrote: »
    I see the topic of burning wood and fire is how the rural TDs plan to keep themselves in government.

    some Rural TD's think its OK to have a few pints and drive home too - it dont make it right tho


  • #417
    Andy From Sligo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,841 ✭✭✭✭Andy From Sligo


    Calhoun wrote: »
    If we want to change behaviors the government needs to invest in it and make it easy for people to do so.

    Solar panels/PV cells are expensive enough particularly for older people.

    As far as heat recovery is concerned there is a significant outlay and your looking at least 10-15K depending on the size of the house.

    People are put off by cost, I say this as someone who has PV cells on the roof, underfloor heating and a house that is near passive.

    this taking into account that older people and pensioners are poor and cannot afford to turn their heating on or get solar panels or afford to insulate their houses - when in fact there are an awful lot that arent poor! - and would be a drop in the ocean for some . that makes me sound age'ist .. I'm not , but there are an awful lot of plaumossers old people out there that would make you believe they are paupers and cannot afford to heat the house and when die are found with thousands in their bank accounts (or underneath their mattress!)


  • #418
    Graces7
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,634 ✭✭✭✭Graces7


    Andy From Sligo wrote: »
    this taking into account that older people and pensioners are poor and cannot afford to turn their heating on or get solar panels or afford to insulate their houses - when in fact there are an awful lot that arent poor! - and would be a drop in the ocean for some . that makes me sound age'ist .. I'm not , but there are an awful lot of plaumossers old people out there that would make you believe they are paupers and cannot afford to heat the house and when die are found with thousands in their bank accounts (or underneath their mattress!)

    Bye Andy ….


  • #419
    Calhoun
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,447 ✭✭✭Calhoun


    Andy From Sligo wrote: »
    some Rural TD's think its OK to have a few pints and drive home too - it dont make it right tho

    At the same time it doesn't mean your opinion is somehow ordained because you have asthma.
    Andy From Sligo wrote: »
    this taking into account that older people and pensioners are poor and cannot afford to turn their heating on or get solar panels or afford to insulate their houses - when in fact there are an awful lot that arent poor! - and would be a drop in the ocean for some . that makes me sound age'ist .. I'm not , but there are an awful lot of plaumossers old people out there that would make you believe they are paupers and cannot afford to heat the house and when die are found with thousands in their bank accounts (or underneath their mattress!)

    If I didn't know you were living in Sligo I would have guessed D4, considering the known gaps we currently have in society when it comes to health , housing and even wealth this answer is quite ignorant.

    If we put the elderly aside there are other poor groups where it is not so simple either.


  • #420
    gozunda
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,996 ✭✭✭✭gozunda


    Andy From Sligo wrote: »
    I dont get this about burning wood is clean to burn - back in the day when you could have bonfires in your back garden and you put wood on it if the wind was blowing a certain way and you got a gobfull of smoke from the burning wood it would make you cough and splutter and give you a burning chest feeling and you would have to get away and get a few big gulps of fresh air . what will the difference be of burning wood in a fireplace, and it coming out of a chimney and it laying low in the air when foggy or misty instead of dispersing into the sky as opposed to burning it in your back garden? - it would be the same wouldnt it?

    Varadkar made a statement claiming wood is as bad a smokey coal. It's not. I've already detailed this in a previous post here

    https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=111974214&postcount=260

    Clean burn technology of many new stoves also means that particulates and emissions from wood fired stoves can be reduced even further.


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  • #421
    Andy From Sligo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,841 ✭✭✭✭Andy From Sligo


    Graces7 wrote: »
    Bye Andy ….

    sorry graces7 not my intention to single out any particular citizen and didnt mean to personally offend but it does go on I read about it a lot of the time - maybe I shouldnt believe everything i read


  • #422
    Andy From Sligo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,841 ✭✭✭✭Andy From Sligo


    Calhoun wrote: »
    At the same time it doesn't mean your opinion is somehow ordained because you have asthma.



    If I didn't know you were living in Sligo I would have guessed D4, considering the known gaps we currently have in society when it comes to health , housing and even wealth this answer is quite ignorant.

    If we put the elderly aside there are other poor groups where it is not so simple either.

    didnt intend to offend anyone by my remark. Suppose i am just rubbish at getting my point across


  • #423
    air
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,830 ✭✭✭air


    gozunda wrote: »
    Varadkar made a statement claiming wood is as bad a smokey coal. It's not. I've already detailed this in a previous post here

    https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=111974214&postcount=260

    Clean burn technology of many new stoves also means that particulates and emissions from wood fired stoves can be reduced even further.

    That all may well be true, but why swap out stoves for high performance ones when there are alternatives which are cleaner than the best stoves available?

    The emission quality is no doubt dependent on fuel and there is no practical way to control what is burned.
    Also there is no guarantee the stoves will be properly maintained. I know there are issues with air passages blocking up in gasification stoves for example which prevents them from gasifying once this happens.

    Leave Varadkar out of it, what he says is of no relevance.


  • #424
    ytpe2r5bxkn0c1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 32,688 ✭✭✭✭ytpe2r5bxkn0c1


    Andy From Sligo wrote: »
    you are handy you have the turf field next to you but if you hadn't you would have to wait for coal to be delivered (or turf) and then in outside bunker or shed and then have to go out and fill up up bucket and bring it in. and pay for someone to clean chimney (you do get your chimney cleaned regularly? ) and keep topping up with fuel as to not let it go out?

    I just push one button on the wall and I dont get filthy doing that nor create a lot of dust whilst doing that .

    Ach Andy, it's no big chore. I have the fuel in the garage. Clean out the fire and reset in 5 or 6 minutes. Text the coalman and he arrives with 3 or 4 months worth of coal. You can clean your own chimney in 15 minutes. One well set fire, with slack added after it takes hold, will burn all evening and heat the radiators.

    What fuel does your heating use?


  • #425
    Andy From Sligo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,841 ✭✭✭✭Andy From Sligo


    Dorian Square Hamper wrote: »
    Ach Andy, it's no big chore. I have the fuel in the garage. Clean out the fire and reset in 5 or 6 minutes. Text the coalman and he arrives with 3 or 4 months worth of coal. You can clean your own chimney in 15 minutes. One well set fire, with slack added after it takes hold, will burn all evening and heat the radiators.

    What fuel does your heating use?

    oil - its a condenser boiler I think they are the best. I don't think you can buy any other than condenser these days now can ye


  • #426
    ytpe2r5bxkn0c1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 32,688 ✭✭✭✭ytpe2r5bxkn0c1


    Andy From Sligo wrote: »
    oil - its a condenser boiler I think they are the best. I don't think you can buy any other than condenser these days now can ye

    I have one of those too

    They are more heat efficient than the older oil burners but pump out a fair bit of CO2 and an acidic exhaust.


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  • #427
    gozunda
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,996 ✭✭✭✭gozunda


    air wrote: »
    That all may well be true, but why swap out stoves for high performance ones when there are alternatives which are cleaner than the best stoves available?The emission quality is no doubt dependent on fuel and there is no practical way to control what is burned. Also there is no guarantee the stoves will be properly maintained. I know there are issues with air passages blocking up in gasification stoves for example which prevents them from gasifying once this happens.Leave Varadkar out of it, what he says is of no relevance.

    Well varadkar brought up the whole wood vs coal thing. So yeah its relevant especially when the data doesnt support his ideas. Currently Irelands air quality is within EU standards. Not even those prima donas of the environment - the Swedes have came up with a plan to ban all solid fuels tbh. Lots more taxes come with centralised sources of energy. Something I'm sure the current government knows well.

    As to why burn wood? Well going forward we are going to have a lot more of it from the increased levels of forestation. So we can benefit from the thinnings which will come with managing that forestry and when properly dried to less than 20% moisture it will provide a relatively cheap and clean fuel.

    And yes there are new generation stoves which ensure very low particulate and gas emissions. It would take time but nothing wrong with a nationwide programme of replacing existing stoves / open fireplaces.


  • #428
    Calhoun
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,447 ✭✭✭Calhoun


    Andy From Sligo wrote: »
    didnt intend to offend anyone by my remark. Suppose i am just rubbish at getting my point across

    I get what your saying, i also am for doing things in a manner that makes where we live a much better place.

    Improving our air pollution is something that benefits us all, so its a decent cause.

    The only problem i have is it should be a no-brainer that we would do this but if we don't make it accessible and leave people behind it will be used as a stick to beat the whole scenario and it will fall apart.

    Case in point goes back to my other response the Healy Raes are already making gains with this one.


  • #429
    air
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,830 ✭✭✭air


    gozunda wrote: »
    Well varadkar brought up the whole wood vs coal thing. So yeah its relevant especially when the data doesnt support his ideas.
    He's just spouting and it was only one sentence. He's not going to be well versed on everything.
    gozunda wrote: »
    Currently Irelands air quality is within EU standards.
    Not according to the EPA.
    Did you read their 2018 report?
    gozunda wrote: »
    Not even those prima donas of the environment - the Swedes have came up with a plan to ban all solid fuels tbh.
    How about we leave Sweden out of the debate, it's no more relevant than China, the US or anyplace else that's been mentioned.

    gozunda wrote: »
    Lots more taxes come with centralised sources of energy. Something I'm sure the current government knows well.
    On the contrary, if you install a heat pump you might get 3 units of heat for free for every one you buy and pay tax on.
    Insulation is only taxed once and the government even subsidises it.
    This will reduce your fuel costs (and taxes) permanently.
    Finally almost every home can produce electricity for free on site - not something you can say about wood, peat, natural gas or oil.
    Again the government has very generous grants available.
    Overall I don't think your taxation conspiracy holds any water.

    gozunda wrote: »
    As to why burn wood? Well going forward we are going to have a lot more of it from the increased levels of forestation. So we can benefit from the thinnings which will come with managing that forestry and when properly dried to less than 20% moisture it will provide a relatively cheap and clean fuel.
    .

    I have to disagree, we need to move towards not burning anything at all to get to a zero carbon future.
    A possible exception would be natural gas from biodigestion of waste products.

    gozunda wrote: »
    And yes there are new generation stoves which ensure very low particulate and gas emissions. It would take time but nothing wrong with a nationwide programme of replacing existing stoves / open fireplaces.

    I've already raised two issues, fuel quality and deteriorating performance over time.
    You haven't addressed either.
    There are umpteen other issues which have already been touched on here.


  • #430
    air
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,830 ✭✭✭air


    gozunda wrote: »
    Well varadkar brought up the whole wood vs coal thing. So yeah its relevant especially when the data doesnt support his ideas.

    The EPA actually puts smokeless coal ahead of wood in terms of emissions, see attached graphic from the EPA 2018 report.

    Perhaps I'm not giving Leo enough credit..
    Obviously wood is far superior from a CO2 standpoint.


  • #431
    Ubbquittious
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,256 ✭✭✭Ubbquittious


    air wrote: »
    The EPA actually puts smokeless coal ahead of wood in terms of emissions, see attached graphic from the EPA 2018 report.

    Perhaps I'm not giving Leo enough credit..
    Obviously wood is far superior from a CO2 standpoint.

    ah but it mentions a special 'eco stove'. so it's hard to know if it's the coal or the stove that's doing the work there. nothing alarming in the rest of that report. storm in a teacup


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  • #432
    Andy From Sligo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,841 ✭✭✭✭Andy From Sligo


    Dorian Square Hamper wrote: »
    I have one of those too

    They are more heat efficient than the older oil burners but pump out a fair bit of CO2 and an acidic exhaust.

    often wondered that - there is quite a plume of smoke that comes out the back of them but I thought that was more like just condensation coming out .. er because its a condensing boiler.


    this is from the book - I thought it burnt pretty economical and not much co2 out of it myself :

    The Grant Euroflame condensing boiler contains an
    extra heat exchanger which is designed to recover the
    latent heat normally lost by a conventional boiler. It
    does this by cooling the flue gases to below 90° C,
    thus extracting more sensible heat and some of the
    latent heat. This is achieved by cooling the flue gases
    to their dew point (approximately 55° C).


  • #433
    ytpe2r5bxkn0c1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 32,688 ✭✭✭✭ytpe2r5bxkn0c1


    Andy From Sligo wrote: »
    often wondered that - there is quite a plume of smoke that comes out the back of them but I thought that was more like just condensation coming out .. er because its a condensing boiler.


    this is from the book - I thought it burnt pretty economical and not much co2 out of it myself :

    The Grant Euroflame condensing boiler contains an
    extra heat exchanger which is designed to recover the
    latent heat normally lost by a conventional boiler. It
    does this by cooling the flue gases to below 90° C,
    thus extracting more sensible heat and some of the
    latent heat. This is achieved by cooling the flue gases
    to their dew point (approximately 55° C).

    Exactly, the heat is more efficient because it recover latent heat but it's still burning oil and emitting co2. The run off condensed liquid is also acidic.


  • #434
    Ubbquittious
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,256 ✭✭✭Ubbquittious


    There is pretty much a fixed amount of co2 to be had from burning a litre of kerosene


  • #435
    air
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,830 ✭✭✭air


    Ubbquittious wrote: »
    nothing alarming in the rest of that report. storm in a teacup
    That's your opinion, with which I strongly disagree, as does the EPA.

    This article quotes 1100 deaths a year in Ireland from air pollution, I've seen higher figures quoted elsewhere.
    https://www.irishtimes.com/culture/books/tackling-ireland-s-air-pollution-1.3781690


  • #436
    pablo128
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,219 ✭✭✭pablo128


    Dorian Square Hamper wrote: »
    Exactly, the heat is more efficient because it recover latent heat but it's still burning oil and emitting co2. The run off condensed liquid is also acidic.

    To be fair, not everywhere has a gas connection. My folks house in Wexford has oil central heating. They are unable to have gas as the estate is not connected.


  • #437
    Andy From Sligo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,841 ✭✭✭✭Andy From Sligo


    air wrote: »
    The EPA actually puts smokeless coal ahead of wood in terms of emissions, see attached graphic from the EPA 2018 report.

    Perhaps I'm not giving Leo enough credit..
    Obviously wood is far superior from a CO2 standpoint.

    its strange that 'kerosene oil boiler' is not split into 2 seperate columns, as in 'older conventional kerosene boilers' then 'condensing kerosene boilers' which surely are much cleaner ?


  • #438
    Andy From Sligo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,841 ✭✭✭✭Andy From Sligo


    Ubbquittious wrote: »
    There is pretty much a fixed amount of co2 to be had from burning a litre of kerosene

    but if the oil boiler is efficent as in condenser boiler its not on as long as conventional oil boiler so 1ltr of kerosene will last longer in a condenser boiler and working less than conventional boiler meaning less amount of Co2 in any one amount of time compared to the older non condensing boiler? - have I that right?

    in other words you get more out of 1ltr of kerosene in a condensing boiler as opposed to conventional non condensing oil boiler so using less kerosene and not pumping out as much co2 into the air?


  • #439
    deezell
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,896 ✭✭✭deezell


    Andy From Sligo wrote: »
    its strange that 'kerosene oil boiler' is not split into 2 seperate columns, as in 'older conventional kerosene boilers' then 'condensing kerosene boilers' which surely are much cleaner ?

    There would be little if any difference in emissions from burning a litre of kerosene in a non condensing boiler and a condensing boiler. The difference is efficiency, less heat going up the flue with the condensor. Assuming the older boiler is serviced, the burn will be as clean in one as in the other.


  • #440
    Andy From Sligo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,841 ✭✭✭✭Andy From Sligo


    air wrote: »
    That's your opinion, with which I strongly disagree, as does the EPA.

    This article quotes 1100 deaths a year in Ireland from air pollution, I've seen higher figures quoted elsewhere.
    https://www.irishtimes.com/culture/books/tackling-ireland-s-air-pollution-1.3781690

    and when other countries think of Ireland i bet they think its like Ireand of old with fresh clean air - that most probably would surprise an awful lot who see / read of that many deaths in one year due to poor air , especially with the small population in Ireland. - it needs to be better


  • #441
    Andy From Sligo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,841 ✭✭✭✭Andy From Sligo


    pablo128 wrote: »
    To be fair, not everywhere has a gas connection. My folks house in Wexford has oil central heating. They are unable to have gas as the estate is not connected.

    maybe not mains gas - but calor gas can deliver bulk gas almost anywhere can they not? , if they had a bulk tank fitted on their premises . I think Calor are doing an offer of a free gas boiler as well at the moment?


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  • #442
    Andy From Sligo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,841 ✭✭✭✭Andy From Sligo


    deezell wrote: »
    There would be little if any difference in emissions from burning a litre of kerosene in a non condensing boiler and a condensing boiler. The difference is efficiency, less heat going up the flue with the condensor. Assuming the older boiler is serviced, the burn will be as clean in one as in the other.

    its not a technical test by any means , but my nose would be able to tell what is a condensing and a non condensing boiler by just standing next to the outdoor boiler cabinet :D - in other words i have found non codensing oil boilers to be stinkier when running , what comes out of the flue compared to what comes out of the condensing boiler flue smell ... unless maybe the older conventional boilers I have stood next to just need a bloody good service and are burning too rich or not enough air


  • #443
    gozunda
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,996 ✭✭✭✭gozunda


    air wrote: »
    He's just spouting and it was only one sentence. He's not going to be well versed on everything.

    Look I get it that you are big into Ireland flagilating itself. But the fact is that he is the current leader of the government proposing this changes and he is apparently full of bs. See:

    https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/ban-on-turf-and-other-smoky-fuels-considered-by-coalition-1.4108870?mode=amp&mode=sample&auth-failed=1&pw-origin=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.irishtimes.com%2Fnews%2Fireland%2Firish-news%2Fban-on-turf-and-other-smoky-fuels-considered-by-coalition-1.4108870
    air wrote: »
    Not according to the EPA.Did you read their 2018 report?

    Did you read this? https://www.epa.ie/irelandsenvironment/air/

    We meet EU guidelines but not WHO. So who do we go with? The EPA have also identified vehicular pollution in Dublin to be a significant problem. I think we should abandon cars now!

    https://www.irishtimes.com/news/environment/dublin-air-pollution-breaching-eu-limits-epa-warns-1.3950575
    air wrote: »
    How about we leave Sweden out of the debate, it's no more relevant than China, the US or anyplace else that's been mentioned.

    Nope. Air pollution does not recognise national boundaries. Sweden is one of the leaders of environmental policy. Lets not try the usual Irish ****e of having to be seen to be better than those leading the charge at least!
    air wrote: »
    On the contrary, if you install a heat pump you might get 3 units of heat for free for every one you buy and pay tax on.
    Insulation is only taxed once and the government even subsidises it.
    This will reduce your fuel costs (and taxes) permanently.Finally almost every home can produce electricity for free on site - not something you can say about wood, peat, natural gas or oil.Again the government has very generous grants available.Overall I don't think your taxation conspiracy holds any water.

    I grow my own willow coppice so yes I get it for 'free'. The willow continues to grow after coppicing and to take up carbon as well. I use a moisture meter that ensures I only use wood when its less than the recommended 20%. But i guess haven't been around that long no? Trust me nothing like milking financial livestock when they willingly keep giving ...
    air wrote: »
    I have to disagree, we need to move towards not burning anything at all to get to a zero carbon future.
    A possible exception would be natural gas from biodigestion of waste products.

    Course you do. And welcome to the next stone age. Carbon sequestration is a reality and grassland here in Ireland is a major carbon sink. That is recognised by the European Environmental Agency. Pity that seems to be ignored.

    air wrote: »
    I've already raised two issues, fuel quality and deteriorating performance over time. You haven't addressed either.There are umpteen other issues which have already been touched on here.

    Look you keep arguing with everyone and anyone who knows otherwise. So a bit pointless. But suffice to say Its fairly easy to set standards for solid fiel and stoves. Go ahead choose to shoot ourselves in the foot whilst we pretend to be better than everyone else in Europe so Varadkar and friend get a shot at the European Parliament once they get booted come the next election.

    But you know what - cant really be arsed with any further reply. Not much point is there tbh ...


  • #444
    air
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,830 ✭✭✭air


    gozunda wrote: »
    Look I get it that you are big into Ireland flagilating itselfover these issues. But the fact is that he is the current leader of the government proposing this changes and he is apparently full of bs. See:
    I'm not sure what you're saying here. The EPA is advising that we abandon solid fuel fires for the good of public health, I have zero interest in the politics and I don't have any reason to question the impartiality of the EPA.

    gozunda wrote: »
    Did you read this? https://www.epa.ie/irelandsenvironment/air/
    Yes, what's your point?
    gozunda wrote: »
    We meet EU guidelines but not WHO. So who do we go with? The EPA have also identified vehicular pollution in Dublin to be a significant problem. I think we should abandon cars now!
    I would argue we should go with the lower limit considering the status quo is costing lives.


    gozunda wrote: »
    Nope. Air pollution does not recognise national boundaries. Sweden is one of the leaders of environmental policy. Lets not try the usual Irish ****e of having to be seen to be better than those leading the charge at least!
    I don't care what Sweden does, it's a red herring you're introducing to deflect from your weak position. We have an air quality problem according to the EPA, I think it's a good idea to solve it can be done easliy.


    gozunda wrote: »
    I grow my own willow coppice so yes I get it for 'free'. The willow continues to grow after coppicing and to take up carbon as well. I use a moisture meter that ensures I only use wood when its less than the recommended 20%. But i guess haven't been around that long no? Trust me nothing like milking financial livestock when they willingly keep giving ...
    I applaud your efforts and would do the same myself if I lived a good distance from anyone else in a rural area. The issue with solid fuels and air quality is an urban one as far as I'm aware. I wouldn't have any issue with one off houses burning solid fuels. However even rural villages should have a ban enforced, based on my anecdotal observations of smog driving through them during calm conditions.
    gozunda wrote: »
    Course you do. And welcome to the next stone age. Carbon sequestration is a reality and grassland here in Ireland is a major carbon sink. That is recognised by the European Environmental Agency. Pity that seems to be ignored.
    Not sure what relevance this has to the issue at hand.

    gozunda wrote: »
    Look you keep arguing with everyone and anyone who knows otherwise. So a bit pointless.
    Not one person on this thread (including yourself) has presented any evidence to contradict the EPA's assertion that we should ban solid fuel burning for public health reasons.
    gozunda wrote: »
    But suffice to say Its fairly easy to set standards for solid fiel and stoves. Go ahead choose to shoot ourselves in the foot whilst we pretend to be better than everyone else in Europe so Varadkar and friend get a shot at the European Parliament once they get booted come the next election.
    I've no interest in this kind of political gibberish.
    gozunda wrote: »
    But you know what - cant really be arsed with any further reply. Not much point is there tbh ...
    Fair enough


  • #445
    Antares35
    Registered Users Posts: 3,845 ✭✭✭Antares35


    We need to stop people lighting fires in their homes... but it's ok for them to chow down on red meat 7 days a week, dump tonnes of plastic and drive SUVs. I agree with your point to a large extent OP - fires are a complete pain in the áss, but banning them when there are so many other things people do which damage the environment? Quite a narrow and selected target. Plus, don't most people burn smokeless fuel now?


  • #446
    air
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,830 ✭✭✭air


    Antares35 wrote: »
    We need to stop people lighting fires in their homes... but it's ok for them to chow down on red meat 7 days a week, dump tonnes of plastic and drive SUVs. I agree with your point to a large extent OP - fires are a complete pain in the áss, but banning them when there are so many other things people do which damage the environment? Quite a narrow and selected target. Plus, don't most people burn smokeless fuel now?

    We need to tackle every one of those issues but this one has human health as well as environmental effects so it makes sense to prioritise it.

    Nominally smokeless fuel still produces smoke and pollutants which are damaging to human health.


  • #447
    Antares35
    Registered Users Posts: 3,845 ✭✭✭Antares35


    air wrote: »
    We need to tackle every one of those issues but this one has human health as well as environmental effects so it makes sense to prioritise it.

    Nominally smokeless fuel still produces smoke and pollutants which are damaging to human health.

    They all have human health effects and this one is definitely not the main culprit when it comes to CO2 emissions.


  • #448
    air
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,830 ✭✭✭air


    Antares35 wrote: »
    They all have human health effects
    Of course, but burning solid fuels has a direct immediate effect.
    Such as a poster here mentioned around his son's breathing issues.

    Antares35 wrote: »
    this one is definitely not the main culprit when it comes to CO2 emissions.
    Agreed, I never said it was.
    Burning wood can be carbob neutral, however that's a secondary concern if burning it is causing respiratory distress to people in the immediate vicinity.


  • #449
    Antares35
    Registered Users Posts: 3,845 ✭✭✭Antares35


    air wrote: »
    Of course, but burning solid fuels has a direct immediate effect.
    Such as a poster here mentioned around his son's breathing issues.



    Agreed, I never said it was.
    Burning wood can be carbob neutral, however that's a secondary concern if burning it is causing respiratory distress to people in the immediate vicinity.

    People who happen to have asthma who happen to be standing outside the odd house that is burning fuel?

    We will all suffer if CO2 emissions are not brought down. The effects could be catastrophic and widespread for everyone. I'd consider that a greater priority.


  • #450
    2lazytogetup
    Registered Users Posts: 843 ✭✭✭2lazytogetup


    i love when the neighbours burn wood, means i get to choke on their fumes. But sure they are warm in cosy inside. an analogy can be drawn with sellafield nuclear powerplant. its closer to Dublin than London so any harm is suffered by someone else.


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  • #451
    Andy From Sligo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,841 ✭✭✭✭Andy From Sligo


    Antares35 wrote: »
    We need to stop people lighting fires in their homes... but it's ok for them to chow down on red meat 7 days a week, dump tonnes of plastic and drive SUVs. I agree with your point to a large extent OP - fires are a complete pain in the áss, but banning them when there are so many other things people do which damage the environment? Quite a narrow and selected target. Plus, don't most people burn smokeless fuel now?

    no they dont - not even towns who have the ban in place - its not enforced I reckon . unless they are burning other rubbish/waste in the fireplace.

    as long as smokey coal is on sale I suppose then people will buy it ... if its not then? ..... (people will more than likely buy it on the black market! :D )


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