what is the burning passion for having an open fire?

Ubbquittious · 11-12-2019 11:02pm

air wrote: »

That's my point, the resolution isn't high enough to support your argument.
The data shows daily averages while the issue the article mentioned peaks in pollution values at night time.

I'd imagine city folk probably run their fires from 6pm to midnight approximately, so pollution levels would only peak for a quarter of the day.
On this basis you could multiply the figures in your chart by 4.

It should be appearing on the daily chart then. but it isn't. Maybe something will show on it tomorrow or the day after or next week but tbh I doubt it because I looked at that site before and saw nothing unusual. The worst pm2.5 seems to be in the spring and the summer which would lead me to believe something else is the culprit

s7ryf3925pivug · 11-12-2019 11:45pm

Ubbquittious wrote: »

It should be appearing on the daily chart then. but it isn't. Maybe something will show on it tomorrow or the day after or next week but tbh I doubt it because I looked at that site before and saw nothing unusual. The worst pm2.5 seems to be in the spring and the summer which would lead me to believe something else is the culprit

Backyard burning occurs in spring and summer. It is always illegal and should be reported to the council. Barbecues can also be very bad.

Andy From Sligo · 12-12-2019 12:35am

2lazytogetup wrote: »

Idea of wood burning being carbon neutral is untrue and a marketing ploy from stove producers. Cant remember all the details but many wood logs are transported from as far away as china and the burning efficicency is only 20%.

My biggest problem is the selfishness of homes burning wood and peat and coal. All the fumes go outside onto the roads and paths and very detrimental to health of neighbours and people outside. Could be GAA training, or kids in a school yard. Its like f**k them outside, i dont care as long as I want a fire inside my house, it doesnt matter what other people think, as long as i am happy, thats all that matters.

which has been my issue all along - I was a culprit years ago. used to get that polish coal stuff and because we never had a good chimney with a good updraft it would smoke more than a raging fire but that was back in the 90's and now I have gotten older and wiser to local pollution (I am more concerned about local pollution) I would never light fire like that ever again .. not with smokey coal anyways

Andy From Sligo · 12-12-2019 12:47am

NIMAN wrote: »

We got our stove taken out after last winter, and to be honest we miss it in the living room. It is great on a cold night.

OH already talking about putting one back in!

As for the pollution, it is very obvious in some places locally. There are certain parts of the local town where you drive through a thick area of smoke, where its obvious people are burning really cheap, dirty coal. Its can't be good for the lungs.

hmm, so that could be it then . Cheap and dirty coal . now how do you convert people to burn expensive and smokeless fuel? - will they still be up in arms and say "I like my cheap and smokey fuel - I am not giving it up just cause someone says its unhealthy!" - or "I cannot afford healthier coal" and "I like the look a cosy feel of an open fire burning cheap n nasty smokey coal!" all the other arguments raised on here

Loafing Oaf · 12-12-2019 12:51am

Loafing Oaf wrote: »

https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/taoiseach-accuses-fianna-fail-of-anti-rural-agenda-over-smoky-coal-ban-969637.html

Leo the horny-handed son of the soil accuses FF of being an 'anti-rural party' over their stance on this issue.:rolleyes:

Willie O'Dea apparently refusing to rule out a ban on burning turf and timber on TV3 this evening.:eek: Whatever you think of the proposal, it would certainly be a brave, anti-populist move for FF. I suspect they will have ruled it out by the election though, otherwise FG and others will 'make hay' with it among rural voters.

Andy From Sligo · 12-12-2019 1:00am

buried wrote: »

People have a lot more to be concerned about than what is getting burned in a fireplace down the road. Especially in large housing estates. Some of these large housing estates there is other forms of harm people are doing to their neighbours other than burning wood in their gaffs. Anti social behaviour etc People get angry and complain about that too but f**k all gets done. What do people think is actually going to be done? Its all well and good professors and academics creating studies and data sheets from their plush gaffs behind gates and walls. On the actual ground nothing will get done, just like the anti social behaviour, I mean that is actually illegal and nothing is ever done about it in these places, burning fuel in a fireplace is legal so you may as well forget about it.

I dont like comparing Ireland with the UK , but when the Smog in 1950's London got so bad with people burning cheap and nasty coal that has been almost eradicated over there now .. how did they do it if it weren't a law / ban that was brought in and not properly enforced? - if it was something else that changed maybe we could look at it and do something similar? - we are not worlds apart in that sense - not saying today Ireland has same serious issue of smog that 1950's London / UK had because I couldnt back that up. So if its not anywhere near the levels of the smog in the UK then surely it would be even easier to eradicate then or get control of this? - I know also the vehicles contributed to the smog as well because they used leaded petrol gas guzzlers of vehicles and not tuned to optimum and no catalytic converters in them days but I believe a lot of the smog was produced by the amount of smokey coal being burnt across London / the land.

Andy From Sligo · 12-12-2019 1:13am

pablo128 wrote: »

Growing up we would have had an open fire. When the folks got central heating installed, it was naturally ran off a back boiler, though that was years ago and it's powered by gas now.

But to this day I remember we weren't allowed throw plastic in the fire. They reckoned it would cause a chimney fire. I assumed everyone done the same. It's bad form burning stuff like that in an open fire. A bit of paper or cardboard maybe just to get rid of it but not plastics.

a few years back now but a local story of a boy and father died from carbon monoxide poisoning. I think the verdict was that a couple of plastic bags or plastic coal bags has got caught up inside the chimney (in the updraught i presume) and just blocked up the chimney - they fell asleep in the living room in front of the fire and never woke up

buried · 12-12-2019 1:35am

Andy From Sligo wrote: »

I dont like comparing Ireland with the UK , but when the Smog in 1950's London got so bad with people burning cheap and nasty coal that has been almost eradicated over there now .. how did they do it if it weren't a law / ban that was brought in and not properly enforced? - if it was something else that changed maybe we could look at it and do something similar? - we are not worlds apart in that sense - not saying today Ireland has same serious issue of smog that 1950's London / UK had because I couldnt back that up. So if its not anywhere near the levels of the smog in the UK then surely it would be even easier to eradicate then or get control of this? - I know also the vehicles contributed to the smog as well because they used leaded petrol gas guzzlers of vehicles and not tuned to optimum and no catalytic converters in them days but I believe a lot of the smog was produced by the amount of smokey coal being burnt across London / the land.

I hear what you are saying Andy, but the problem is far more nuanced than people just burning fossil fuels like coal like how the estates in 1950's England were.
It looks like to me that the vast majority of air pollution from open fires are happening in housing estates in urban areas. Now, this won't be a very PC thing to say but I'm going to say it, a lot of these large urban estates where houses are plonked all together with no amenities are the same ones where a lot of poverty/anti social behaviour goes on.
There are two in the urban area I live near and this is the norm. The poverty creates a situation where people are literally burning their household rubbish in the open fires and stoves instead of paying for it to be dumped. This is a year round thing. The poverty also creates a situation where kids are left to fend for themselves and they end up with no leadership so they act the scumbag after a little while.
Nobody wants to do anything about either situation. No politician, no political party, nobody. So, my point is this, if they won't apply the actual law for these instances, what hope do you have they will introduce a law banning their fireplaces? Seriously? I know you mean well, but you and those like you are p!ssing in the wind if you actually think anything is going to be done.

NIMAN · 12-12-2019 1:48am

I think this argument shows that the general public has next to no interest about making the big changes in their lives to aid the climate change issue.

Its mostly about me, me, me. Sod the planet.

Andy From Sligo · 12-12-2019 1:49am

buried wrote: »

I hear what you are saying Andy, but the problem is far more nuanced than people just burning fossil fuels like coal like how the estates in 1950's England were.
It looks like to me that the vast majority of air pollution from open fires are happening in housing estates in urban areas. Now, this won't be a very PC thing to say but I'm going to say it, a lot of these large urban estates where houses are plonked all together with no amenities are the same ones where a lot of poverty/anti social behaviour goes on.
There are two in the urban area I live near and this is the norm. The poverty creates a situation where people are literally burning their household rubbish in the open fires and stoves instead of paying for it to be dumped. This is a year round thing. The poverty also creates a situation where kids are left to fend for themselves and they end up with no leadership so they act the scumbag after a little while.
Nobody wants to do anything about either situation. No politician, no political party, nobody. So, my point is this, if they won't apply the actual law for these instances, what hope do you have they will introduce a law banning their fireplaces? Seriously? I know you mean well, but you and those like you are p!ssing in the wind if you actually think anything is going to be done.

yep i see what you are saying - there must be more than one way to crack a walnut. As you say they are burning their rubbish in their fireplace because they have to pay to use the bin (landfill and recycling) to dispose of their rubbish otherwise. If a scheme was introduced to a heavily reduced rate or even free .. would they still continue to burn rubbish in their open fire?

maybe one way to solve one problem may be to resolve another problem?

but then again , the people burning household rubbish waste would have to venture outside and actually put their wast into the bins and separate the landfill rubbish from the recyclable rubbish and may just think it easier to toss it into the fireplace anyways

Andy From Sligo · 12-12-2019 1:52am

NIMAN wrote: »

I think this argument shows that the general public has next to no interest about making the big changes in their lives to aid the climate change issue.

Its mostly about me, me, me. Sod the planet.

seems it - if people are not going to change at local level and try and make the air clearer and cleaner smelling with a small bit of change , there has got to be no hope that they are worried about the rest of the world and pollution globally and cannot care much about how much longer the planet will last for them and their offspring

buried · 12-12-2019 1:55am

NIMAN wrote: »

I think this argument shows that the general public has next to no interest about making the big changes in their lives to aid the climate change issue.

Its mostly about me, me, me. Sod the planet.

The general public are led by what they are shown. Look at all the noise concerning Christmas that's spewn out on the TV, its all about spend spend spend, consume consume consume. None of which is any good for the welfare of our planet but that's the norm in a consumerist society revolving around the pursuit of profit. You cant have it both ways. But the likes of tv stations are lambasting people to change their ways while at the same time advertising mobile phones, airline companies, car companies, chemical companies who do untold damage to the planet in the pursuit of money.

NIMAN · 12-12-2019 1:56am

Does anyone know if new planning restrictions in Ireland forbid you to have a chimney?

I know in NI that new properties don't have them (at least all the social housing I see shooting up around Derry don't anyway).

simongurnick · 12-12-2019 2:00am

" bring in a bucket of coal son"

Andy From Sligo · 12-12-2019 2:00am

buried wrote: »

The general public are led by what they are shown. Look at all the noise concerning Christmas that's spewn out on the TV, its all about spend spend spend, consume consume consume. None of which is any good for the welfare of our planet but that's the norm in a consumerist society revolving around the pursuit of profit. You cant have it both ways. But the likes of tv stations are lambasting people to change their ways while at the same time advertising mobile phones, airline companies, car companies, chemical companies who do untold damage to the planet in the pursuit of money.

haha - your right. Just been watching extinction rebellion documentary blocking up london streets on Sky News now (and you know how much sky news are on about a plastic ocean and saving the world) and then the adverts come on LOL with all consumerism stuff and plastic and JML stuff and everything

NIMAN · 12-12-2019 2:03am

The people aren't for changing.
They have relatively cushy lives now with convenience in all aspects of it.
All the gadgets they need.

They ain't going to ever give that up.

Don't be fooled by a few thousand kids round the world taking a few days off school. They are not going to have much influence.

Andy From Sligo · 12-12-2019 2:03am

NIMAN wrote: »

Does anyone know if new planning restrictions in Ireland forbid you to have a chimney?

I know in NI that new properties don't have them (at least all the social housing I see shooting up around Derry don't anyway).

I think new builds are doing away with chimneys these days to get the Rating thing/figure - dont think you can achieve a good economy rating now with a chimney because the heat gets lost up the chimney

gozunda · 12-12-2019 2:41am

Have to cock an eye at the politicians and this latest stunt. The fact is that Irelands air quality remains within EU air guidelines - yet we are being told that we have to ban the burning of all solid fuels and that there's no difference between smokey coal and well dried wood. One word - and thats 'bolloxs'. Well dried wood doesn't come within an ases roar of coal with regard to particulates and other emissions. Plus any emissions are highly dependant on how fuel is burned ie stove versus open fire or even modern stove with secondary burning versus old style stove. Even Sweden - that bastion of environmental purity hasn't tried to pull a stunt like this. Fair fuks to the Irish government for trying to shift everyone once again eh...

Suffice to say the latest comudgins from the government is to push the populace into using highly taxed and controlled heating such as gas and electricity and for wood and turf ( which may or may not have been taxed) to be ditched. Nothing like milking the old financial livestock for a bit more revenue whilst tapping into the current ennui and guilt over global warming ...

Micky 32 · 12-12-2019 3:20am

NIMAN wrote: »

The people aren't for changing.
They have relatively cushy lives now with convenience in all aspects of it.
All the gadgets they need.

They ain't going to ever give that up.

.

You come across as a typical begrudger than someone that’s genuinely worried about the planet.

I work hard and i’ll be spending my money where i see fit, i have at least 2 transatlantic flights in 2020.

Micky 32 · 12-12-2019 3:24am

gozunda wrote: »

Have to cock an eye at the politicians and this latest stunt. The fact is that Irelands air quality remains within EU air guidelines - yet we are being told that we have to ban the burning of all solid fuels and that there's no difference between smokey coal and well dried wood. One word - and thats 'bolloxs'. Well dried wood doesn't come within an ases roar of coal with regard to particulates and other emissions. Plus any emissions are highly dependant on how fuel is burned ie stove versus open fire or even modern stove with secondary burning versus old style stove. Even Sweden - that bastion of environmental purity hasn't tried to pull a stunt like this. Fair fuks to the Irish government for trying to shift everyone once again eh...

Suffice to say the latest comudgins from the government is to push the populace into using highly taxed and controlled heating such as gas and electricity and for wood and turf ( which may or may not have been taxed) to be ditched. Nothing like milking the old financial livestock for a bit more revenue whilst tapping into the current ennui and guilt over global warming ...

Did you hear the latest proposal from Bruton? He’s planning on fining people who sit in the car and the engine is running while stationary. Lol

s7ryf3925pivug · 12-12-2019 10:30am

Domestic wood burning produces 2.4 times as much PM2.5 as traffic in the UK (even though there are more cars than stoves).

https://www.bmj.com/content/350/bmj.h2757/rr-1

They are introducing regulation of sales of firewood with greater than 20% moisture content there as well as coal. (Dry wood burns a lot more efficiently, which is probably why wood pellets seem to be ok.)

Graces7 · 12-12-2019 12:14pm

Ubbquittious wrote: »

This stuff about them being a pain in the hole to clean keeps coming up but I wonder how long do people spend cleaning them? Even if you're burning turf week in week out surely you'd spend no more than a few minutes cleaning the thing and the lighting is easy unless your fuel is damp

Just lit mine. Clearing the ash took three minutes tops.

Graces7 · 12-12-2019 1:12pm

Andy From Sligo wrote: »

a few years back now but a local story of a boy and father died from carbon monoxide poisoning. I think the verdict was that a couple of plastic bags or plastic coal bags has got caught up inside the chimney (in the updraught i presume) and just blocked up the chimney - they fell asleep in the living room in front of the fire and never woke up

[

That happens often not because of what folk are burning but because people seal their homes against drafts so well there is no oxygen/air coming in. They seal off ventilation panels, put draftproofing round doors and windows. Many casualties every year.

Graces7 · 12-12-2019 1:15pm

Speaking of health issues.. The most common serious problems in rural areas, and this is true here, are chest/lung diseases and arthritis. both due to damp not burning turf or coal. ie to insufficient deep heating.

nthclare · 12-12-2019 1:21pm

All the gubberment want is to tick a box, they don't care if Paudi Mack is freezing in his farmhouse in Loop head or Maureen who lives in the old post office is shivering, or Anto in Malahide is unable to afford to get his new heating system and house insulated, or if Mary from Glanmire is living in a drafty house.

They've solutions but no action or ability to make life easier for the financially challenged in society.

Its ok for William and Sophie to be burning coal and fire logs in their fortress in Kildare or Dromoland demise...

Who's going to police them???

cj maxx · 12-12-2019 1:35pm

All the eco-warriors giving out about open fires and going home to their oil heated houses haven't a leg to stand on.
Burning mature wood is at least carbon neutral.
A reforestation programme to replace or increase native trees would be money well spent.
Coal on the other hand should be banned.
Until we can have carbon neutral electricity from solar or hydro even electric heating isn't the answer

s7ryf3925pivug · 12-12-2019 2:10pm

Wood is all about moisture content. Neighbour backyard burning damp wood last summer produced horrendous smoke, worse than coal. Properly dried wood burned efficiently burns much hotter and with much less smoke.
Turf is smokier than peat for the same reason.

It is bollocks really though. Anyone from Dublin old enough to remember before the smoky coal ban there knows this as plain as day. There was a huge and blatant difference in the air quality.

Ush1 · 12-12-2019 2:22pm

Graces7 wrote: »

Speaking of health issues.. The most common serious problems in rural areas, and this is true here, are chest/lung diseases and arthritis. both due to damp not burning turf or coal. ie to insufficient deep heating.

Damp is more to do with ventilation than heating. Heating can actually make moisture build up worse.

Discodog · 12-12-2019 2:24pm

I have a small stove burning a high quality smokeless fuel. Easy to light, no smoke, no soot & really economical.

BIGT4464 · 12-12-2019 2:51pm

pgj2015 wrote: »

who is to stop you ripping out a stove and putting in an open fire in a new build? thats what i would do. an open fire is one of the perks of winter.

The very recent new builds near me have no chimney. Its the way to go.

what is the burning passion for having an open fire?

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