proposed €19m tourist development of the HellFire Club

seamus · 31-05-2017 9:56am

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You haven't really you know. It appears to me to be just a personal dislike of changing somethings at the foot of the hill.

The argument about unspoiled natural landscapes doesn't really hold water when one of the main attractions to Montpelier Hill is the view out over Dublin City.

I havent seen much in the line of counter argument from you except a bit of hysteria about cars on the road which is only an issue when the weather is good at the weekends.

So you agree now it's an issue. And a regular one, at times when the amenity might get the most use.

So why not fix these issues?

Oh and not wanting to bring kids somewhere muddy or without a toilet - I imagine that puts most forest, woods or mountain walks out of the question for you.

Yes, it does. Me and a lot of other families. So why not expand the facilities available. It won't affect your ability to use it, and it will open up the area to lots of other people.

Win-win.

Marlay Park is down the road with all the amenities you require for a walk. Although the parking there is manic at the same times with cars parked out on the road too.

We use Marlay a lot. The front gate is ridiculous at any time, it's very poorly laid out and should be changed. The back gate being "manic" or completely full up is exceptional, once or twice a year at most. We'd rarely have difficulty getting parking, even on the nicest days.

....... · 31-05-2017 10:18am

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seamus · 31-05-2017 11:56am

If the view is the thing, why dont the council utilise the currently going derelict gym on ticknock hill where the views are far better and access the dublin mountains from there? Itd cost a lot less than 19mill and theres already loads of parking, a building that could be used as a visitor centre, 5 minutes from ticknock forest and the locals would be delighted to see that site put to use as it attracts anti social behaviour.

Sure, but what's the attraction? From that building, what is the historical item?

I dont see them as issues tbh. Nice weather at the weekend in Ireland - maybe a few weekends a year? For a few hours at peak time? No different to any other attraction.

Most weekends at the summer tbh. But it also goes beyond that. It's a shame that it goes unused in poorer conditions. These improvements would attract people to the amenity year-round.

But what will be there to use? A concreted monstrosity? Who wants to go to that?

The proposed building is very low-profile and actually quite attractive IMO. As somewhere to go and something to do, plenty of people want to go to that.

Most of that nice walk up will simply - not be there - there will be a huge carpark (300 car spaces) and a 1000 square metre visitor centre.

It's just plain incorrect to say that most of the walk won't be there. The only altered section will be the first part out of the car park. The majority of the route will remain untouched, both the direct path up and the longer path around. The visitor's centre is planned to be located at that first intersection of the two paths, low profile and looking out over Massey's. Once you've gone 50m up that path and into the second turn you won't even be able to see it any more.

Like I say, it's not like they're building it right on top of the Hellfire or putting the carpark right up at the lodge. They're taking a small initial section of the walk and restructuring it to make it a more open and available amenity. That's it.

....... · 31-05-2017 12:14pm

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seamus · 31-05-2017 12:33pm

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Yeah, that's the plan:

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Which is the section in red below;

So you can see the vast majority of the trail(s) and the mountain will be untouched. You can even see from the plan that they won't be just pulling everything down and concreting over it. The woodland will be a key part of the development, surrounding the structures that are built.

1000 sq. m is really not that big at all.

....... · 31-05-2017 12:35pm

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Grassey · 31-05-2017 12:46pm

I think this is right.

Red Circle where the car park goes
Orange Circle the visitors centre.

That offset roundabout also looks dangerous for any cyclist descending that road.

....... · 31-05-2017 1:00pm

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seamus · 31-05-2017 2:21pm

Lol, it is if you assume the entire areas under the circles are going to be paved.

Below are the actual areas affected. Orange being the visitors centre. That's 1,000 sqm to scale btw, the footprint of the building is half that again if they stick on two stories.

Practically all of the trails will remain intact, though I would probably expect the trail from the car park to be resurfaced, if not with tarmac then with more stone.

So you can see that the current walk will remain mostly untouched.

....... · 31-05-2017 2:24pm

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seamus · 31-05-2017 2:31pm

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It's on a steep slope, so it will almost certainly have at least two stories, if not 3. Otherwise they'd have to put it on stilts. The draft drawings indicate two stories on the east slope and a single storey on the west.

The pics posted are even worse than I thought tbh.

AND they only show the sites of the visitor centre and carpark, nothing about toilets, cafe, exhibition space, etc....

The 1000 sqm space includes all of these things, they're not separate buildings.

....... · 31-05-2017 2:34pm

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seamus · 31-05-2017 4:15pm

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Well you have no reason not to.

Anyway, here is reason to believe; https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B_v5kyl2pVzZMllmSU9QZ202Rk0/view

Slide 9 gives the layout of the building. Actually two buildings nearly 1,500sqm in size. Almost half of the space is intended to be an "events space" presumably a room one can book for conferences, etc.
And I stand corrected as it will in fact be on stilts on the eastern side. But a smaller building of 800sq.m.

The cafe will be 220sqm, with a "retail" space, presumably for souvenirs or something, and what looks like a tuck shop.

All seems pretty reasonable to me.

....... · 31-05-2017 4:24pm

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daveyeh · 31-05-2017 4:32pm

Doesn't look that bad to me. Calm down ffs.

ThisRegard · 31-05-2017 10:12pm

Grassey wrote: »

There are on the left heading uphill across from Hellfire carpark. However it is a continuous white line along the majority of that stretch of road - parking opposite a white line is an offence subject to a €40 fine.

Fair enough, I was picturing down the hill.

As for the natural beauty argument, it's man made "beauty" given it's a plantation of non native trees. The hills are full of such places.

ExitEire · 18-06-2017 1:58am

This hill (technically it is a "hill" as it doesn't have the height to be officially known as a mountain), properly known as Montpelier Hill, is home to the Hellfire Club ruin at the summit, and has been a place of peace and tranquility for generations of Dubliners, especially those living within its shadows around south county Dublin.

For generations and generations of Dublin people, this quiet haven of peace and tranquility, going back as far as the 1800's when a horse and carriage were required to access the area unless you happened to be quite local, has been a hugely welcome refuge and a break from city life in times of stress & trial. There is something about the 45 odd minute walk to the summit, that just allows you to unwind and gently let go of a problem or something that has been weighing you down in life.

The walk to the summit, it's like you have been blessed with a chance to think through a problem while walking through the most amazing and beautiful forest trails that Dublin has to offer. When you get to the summit and you see Dublin county and Dublin Bay laid out before you, and you can see all your favorite landmarks, the Popes Cross in the Phoenix Park, the Spire, the piers at Dun Laoghaire, it all feels a bit more manageable, whatever it was that brought you up the hill to walk it off, and never has that been more true than in the current times, when we are all wondering what is around the corner these days and what kind of hardship will we be confronted with next?

I genuinely shudder to think that some kind of stupid ugly paved concrete monstrosity is now going to be made of this beautifully isolated hilltop and its surroundings. The only justification that is now being offered for this project by our political overlord class, is that apparently it will have a coffee shop and a restaurant at the summit. I'm sure we will be getting value for money there as taxpayers after 15 million Euro of property taxes and commercial rates has spent, (for 15 million Euro, read 75 million Euro because after all, this is Ireland!), and in return we will be getting (if we are lucky!), a coffee shop and a restaurant. This has "CELTIC TIGER" bullsh*t stamped all over it, the plans that South Dublin County Council have for this stunningly beautiful, isolated and undisturbed place.

There is a cafe within a stones throw of the Hellfire Club car park, known as Timber Trove, that I can personally vouch for. They do fantastic food and coffees and their homemade cakes are only to die for. There is no need for a coffee shop at this location to justify a spend of taxpayers money of 15 million Euro, there is already a fantastic coffee shop across the road from the Hellfire Club car park that is very frequently used by walkers.

There are very few things left in this country in terms of our history and culture, that we haven't bulldozed over, or made an unholy spectacle out of, or managed to "commercialise", or try to change with our "Celtic Tiger" agenda, into some sort of a money spinner, half of those ideas are most likely now still in NAMA.

Let's just try to learn at least one lesson from those horribly vulgar brash Celtic Tiger days and let's just leave this place alone, for once let's just leave something alone. It has an special sort of isolated and dark beauty that is there for anyone who wishes to see it on any day of the week and let's save ourselves 15 million Euro for a restaurant and a coffee shop and just use the fantastic coffee shop that is a 1 minute walk from the Hellfire Club carpark.

Dublin is in desperate need of social and affordable housing, and it is nothing less than insane and criminal, that those who we elect to represent us publicly, and those who we rely on to spend our money wisely, appear to have gotten a notion into their heads that your property tax and your commercial rates, can be foolishly and wantonly p*ssed away by them in an attempt to turn this beautiful haunting summit into a Celtic Tiger concreted vulgar spectacle, money that if you ask any Dubliner, should be spent on attending to our ever worsening housing crisis.

errlloyd · 22-06-2017 11:52am

This is such a weird conversation.

There are a few people here who really like the Hellfire club as it is - and they will dislike this development. But this development will almost certainly make the hellfire club more popular and it will serve a greater number of people.

So what you really need to prove is why the Hellfire club should remain an exclusive escape for Dubliners.

Is it particularly historically important and would the development damage that? Not really. Not moreso than say Glendaloch - and we had no problem sticking all sorts of developments up there. Any history of note would certainly become more accessible to the public with a visitor centre.

Is it particularly beautiful, and will this development ruin that beauty? It's fine. As many have pointed out the coniferous woods are foreign and they are farmed. There are more beautiful hills to walk dogs and escape capitalism in the Dublin mountains.

The casual and accessible walking spots in this city are becoming more popular. It's a good thing. It's healthy. The compromise is that those of us escaping the crowds need to go further. It's not ideal, but it's not like they're covering it in apartments either.

khamilto · 26-06-2017 2:05am

There are a few people here who really like the Hellfire club as it is - and they will dislike this development. But this development will almost certainly make the hellfire club more popular and it will serve a greater number of people.

It won't make the Hellfire Club more popular, the Hellfire Club is (as the previous poster alluded to) the experience of parking and walking up to the ruin. There's a better viewpoint slightly further up the Military Road if you just want to look out over Dublin, and plenty more dotted nearby where you don't have to walk through trees and up a slope. If you want somewhere that is the modern version of family friend (i.e. pampered and spoiled and every possible need catered to), there are other options. Not everywhere in Ireland needs to be reduced to such craven levels.

I've been going up Hellfire Club, Cruagh, Tibradden, Kilmashogue, Bohernabreena, Lough Bray, Kippure etc for 28 years. I started at age 4. Not everything has to be family friendly. Nature doesn't have to be destroyed (metaphorically and often physically) to make something easy, casual, family friendly. Why does the Hellfire Club need an interpretative centre? A visitor centre? A shop? Café fair enough, some toilets, a bigger car park and some meaningful security. The rest? The rest is just rubbish and shows how facile people have become.

"I want to experience nature, the rugged outdoors, but only if it has copious parking, is easily accessible, has an interpretative centre to make me feel fantastic about how in touch I am with mother nature and the wild, will sell me notebooks and postcards, is family friendly to babies, stops allowing people to visit outside business hours, and offers tree top walks."

What the hell is wrong with you people? Go to Marlay Park, the seaside, or just go to a Starbucks and look at a picture book about nature. It would appear that that is more on the level that the kind of people excited by this plan are looking for.

As (I think) ...... pointed out, they could have easily bought Orlagh and turned that into a hub for accessing the Hellfire Club and the wider Dublin Mountains. Copious amounts of existing space for a museum/visitor centre on the local area, easy to develop parking and ancillary facilities without taking away from natural beauty, and the entrance to it opens directly onto a road that was recently upgraded and is only 1,700 metres from the M50.

Of course, it makes more sense for the current plans.

:rolleyes:

errlloyd · 26-06-2017 10:28am

I don't really think anyone can dispute that these facilities will make more people visit the Hellfire club than currently visit the Hellfire club. The spots in Dublin that have user friendly easy access nature are all way over capacity right now. There is clearly demand for more.

khamilto wrote: »

What the hell is wrong with you people? Go to Marlay Park, the seaside, or just go to a Starbucks and look at a picture book about nature. It would appear that that is more on the level that the kind of people excited by this plan are looking for.

I understand your frustrations here, but I think this paragraph comes across as snobby and elitist. Maybe you don't think people should have coffee and carparks that's your choice. If I asked an extreme outdoor adventurer they would say they don't like gravel trails and coniferous forestry. Maybe I'd find a complete naturist who doesn't believe in hiking boots or packed lunches and believes Montpellier Hill should only be for people who want to hunt their dinner and forage their lunch. They would probably consider you pampered and spoiled.

Just because The Hellfire club is set up the way you like it now, doesn't give anyone ownership of it. It's owned by the people of Ireland. And it should be set up in a way that gives the most possible people the most possible enjoyment. Personally I'll be delighted if it means the lazy parents of uninspired children take their kids up to foothills for a day instead of to Starbucks. Perhaps they'll realise that a child gets an awful lot more out of a walk than a Latté, and they might join us on Kippure soon enough.

Tabnabs · 26-06-2017 10:48am

khamilto wrote: »

It won't make the Hellfire Club more popular, the Hellfire Club is (as the previous poster alluded to) the experience of parking and walking up to the ruin.

Of course it will, build new stuff and more people will come. Frankly a bizarre assertion that the same number of people will use what will be a much increased public offering.

khamilto wrote: »

There's a better viewpoint slightly further up the Military Road if you just want to look out over Dublin, and plenty more dotted nearby where you don't have to walk through trees and up a slope. If you want somewhere that is the modern version of family friend (i.e. pampered and spoiled and every possible need catered to), there are other options. Not everywhere in Ireland needs to be reduced to such craven levels.

And here the bias creeps in. Because you don't like it, the people who do must be "pampered and spoiled".

khamilto wrote: »

I've been going up Hellfire Club, Cruagh, Tibradden, Kilmashogue, Bohernabreena, Lough Bray, Kippure etc for 28 years. I started at age 4.

Is this intended to show some sort of seniority or even superiority? Believe me, it doesn't. I have over 40 years in the same hills, so what!

khamilto wrote: »

Not everything has to be family friendly. Nature doesn't have to be destroyed (metaphorically and often physically) to make something easy, casual, family friendly. Why does the Hellfire Club need an interpretative centre? A visitor centre? A shop? Café fair enough, some toilets, a bigger car park and some meaningful security. The rest? The rest is just rubbish and shows how facile people have become.

There's that bias creeping in again. I don't like it, therefore these others are beneath me and deserving of my contempt.

khamilto wrote: »

As (I think) ...... pointed out, they could have easily bought Orlagh and turned that into a hub for accessing the Hellfire Club and the wider Dublin Mountains. Copious amounts of existing space for a museum/visitor centre on the local area, easy to develop parking and ancillary facilities without taking away from natural beauty, and the entrance to it opens directly onto a road that was recently upgraded and is only 1,700 metres from the M50.

Of course, it makes more sense for the current plans.

:rolleyes:

It's an incredibly pointless idea, that's why it didn't happen. A Georgian mansion on 100 acres of farmland. On an equally narrow road and located at a dangerous junction. Access to the mountains would have to cross private land and as we all know from the Dublin Mountain Way, this means diverting walkers onto public roads instead.

:rolleyes: indeed.

Synode · 27-06-2017 11:07am

I live just down the road from the Hellfire and visit it maybe 7 or 8 times a year for a walk with the family. I would fully welcome this development. The current car park is tiny and as said by Seamus, on a busy day there's cars parked all over the road turning it into single lane which is dangerous.

As long as they don't destroy the walking trails I'm perfectly happy for the place to be opened up properly.

ganmo · 28-07-2017 7:06pm

The planning permission is in.

khamilto · 28-07-2017 9:12pm

Tabnabs wrote: »

Of course it will, build new stuff and more people will come. Frankly a bizarre assertion that the same number of people will use what will be a much increased public offering.

I'm not sure how more clearly I can put it, but I'll try again as it seems to have completely eluded you:

The proposed change will radically alter the Hellfire Club experience to such a degree that it will have little to do with the old Hellfire Club experience, and the reason(s) people will come to the new experience will have little to do with the old. They quite literally can't.

If the old experience no longer exists, you cannot have more visitors to it.

And here the bias creeps in. Because you don't like it, the people who do must be "pampered and spoiled".

Everyone has bias. It is impossible not to have bias. Here's a fairly simple primer for you: http://www.datasciencecentral.com/profiles/blogs/data-is-not-facts-the-impossibility-of-being-unbiased

Here's a hint: Predicating an argument on the other party being 'biased' is facile and moronic.

Is this intended to show some sort of seniority or even superiority? Believe me, it doesn't. I have over 40 years in the same hills, so what!

It's intended to show experience with the subject matter as opposed to someone who has never been there.

There's that bias creeping in again. I don't like it, therefore these others are beneath me and deserving of my contempt.

Here we have you still not capable of complex thought.

It's an incredibly pointless idea, that's why it didn't happen. A Georgian mansion on 100 acres of farmland. On an equally narrow road and located at a dangerous junction. Access to the mountains would have to cross private land and as we all know from the Dublin Mountain Way, this means diverting walkers onto public roads instead.

1) You seem utterly unaware of how many public parks and facilities are centred on Georgian houses.
2) Only 15 out of the 100 acres is farmland, and that was auctioned off as a separate lot.
3) There is a brand new road leading almost the entirety of the way to the entrance of Orlagh House, giving direct access to the M50, (1.7km vs 3.6km to existing car park).

4) The quickest way to the Hellfire Club from the M50 takes you up the narrow road and through the dangerous junction anyway.
5) The junction is no more dangerous than others in the area. Also, are you suffering from some sort of extreme cognitive dissonance? You must be, as the current proposal involves some fairly hefty roadworks and yet a simple 4 way yield is seemingly impossible.
6) It only has to cross 400m over one farmland to reach public land. You are aware of CPOs, right? I wouldn't be surprised if you weren't mind.

Your keen knowledge of the facts is appreciated.

Synode · 28-07-2017 11:11pm

Can someone who is against this give us a decent summary of why?

Riamfada · 29-07-2017 11:17am

I imagine there will be a cost to park the car in future and that the coffee shop will be a Costa?

Tabnabs · 31-07-2017 11:21am

khamilto wrote: »

I'm not sure how more clearly I can put it, but I'll try again as it seems to have completely eluded you:

The proposed change will radically alter the Hellfire Club experience to such a degree that it will have little to do with the old Hellfire Club experience, and the reason(s) people will come to the new experience will have little to do with the old. They quite literally can't.

If the old experience no longer exists, you cannot have more visitors to it.

You're mixing up opinion with fact, chum.

Let me tease this out in simple terms for you to understand.

Will the hill still be there?
Will there still be a path from the car park to the summit?
Will there still be poorly managed Coillte forestry, with a mixture of broadleaf and commercial spruce?
Will it remain a popular walk for families, pensioners, couples, dog walkers?
Will the open views over the city and county still be available at the summit?
Will the historic ruins still be located at the top?

I would respectfully suggest that the experience will not change for 99.99% of the population once the construction is complete.

So in my opinion, you're view is incorrect.

khamilto wrote: »

Everyone has bias. It is impossible not to have bias. Here's a fairly simple primer for you: http://www.datasciencecentral.com/profiles/blogs/data-is-not-facts-the-impossibility-of-being-unbiased

Here's a hint: Predicating an argument on the other party being 'biased' is facile and moronic.

Going on your previous post and reinforced by your last sentence, I'd respectfully suggest your bias is very much on the negative bias scale. Here's a useful link to explain the concept to you https://www.psychologytoday.com/articles/200306/our-brains-negative-bias

That kind of bias isn't pretty, won't win you friends, or influence people. Perhaps you need to take a moment, once in a while, to consider the impact of your words and re-evaluate the need to let a negative tone dictate your narrative.

khamilto wrote: »

Here we have you still not capable of complex thought.

There's that negative bias creeping in again. Is there a need to be rude? Does it make you feel superior or better about yourself to belittle another person?

khamilto wrote: »

1) You seem utterly unaware of how many public parks and facilities are centred on Georgian houses.
My knowledge on Georgian estate public parks is fairly reasonable, but not really of much relevance to a discussion on the development of the Montpelier Hill
2) Only 15 out of the 100 acres is farmland, and that was auctioned off as a separate lot.
Again, this information, assuming it's correct, has little relevance to the subject at hand
3) There is a brand new road leading almost the entirety of the way to the entrance of Orlagh House, giving direct access to the M50, (1.7km vs 3.6km to existing car park).
This "brand new road" is the very same road that exists on the oldest OSI maps (http://maps.osi.ie/publicviewer/#V2,711579,725426,11,3). Did you know that St Columkille's Well was previously a site of significant pilgrimage? In the early part of the 20th century pilgrims would meet on O'Connell St and walk out to the site where mass would be celebrated. Quaint story and FA to do with this topic. But that road is neither new nor a sudden big improvement. That junction remains a hazard to local traffic.
4) The quickest way to the Hellfire Club from the M50 takes you up the narrow road and through the dangerous junction anyway.
You're assuming here that most people are coming from the M50, why?
5) The junction is no more dangerous than others in the area. Also, are you suffering from some sort of extreme cognitive dissonance? You must be, as the current proposal involves some fairly hefty roadworks and yet a simple 4 way yield is seemingly impossible.
A four way yield sign? Who has priority when all four approaches have to yield? I think a yield sign for just one road would be sufficient. Nice little dig at the end there too...
6) It only has to cross 400m over one farmland to reach public land. You are aware of CPOs, right? I wouldn't be surprised if you weren't mind.
As anyone who has experience of opening up the Dublin mountains as an public amenity will know, CPO is not some sort of magic wand that gives a Moses like access across private land. If this were the case the Dublin Mountain Way would be a very, very different experience. Oh and I won't stoop to your level and throw in another snide remark, you're doing a great job all by yourself.

khamilto wrote: »

Your keen knowledge of the facts is appreciated.

Your appreciation truly has no limits...

Tabnabs · 31-07-2017 11:43am

Riamfada wrote: »

I imagine there will be a cost to park the car in future and that the coffee shop will be a Costa?

Speaking with the council employee during the public consultation, SDCoCo are very aware of the negative impact charging for a public amenity would have and he could not envisage a charge ever being applied. On the other hand, if a charge meant a security guard on site during opening hours, I'd gladly pay for the peace of mind of not returning to smashed windows and stolen contents.

The coffee shop will likely go to public tender and who ever puts in the best offer gets the gig.

ganmo · 31-07-2017 2:06pm

My issues with it are
- digging up the road to bring water up and down from a coffee shop at the top of a hill seems bonkers
- making a narrow road narrower by putting a footpath on it
- putting pointless 'advisory' cycle lanes on the narrow road.
- narrowing the road to a point where it's not wide enough for 2 cars to pass each other not to talk about any bigger vehicles
- surely they can think of a more beneficial way to spend 20mil than putting a coffee house on the top of a hill.

Grassey · 31-07-2017 4:20pm

Add in the off centre roundabout design for the entrance which will not slow traffic going uphill (straight line), but be much more awkward for traffic coming downhill.

Also not sure why a coffee shop is needed... there is already a very good one in Timbertrove.

proposed €19m tourist development of the HellFire Club

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