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Waterford University discussion
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He's OK, he went to UL. Selling second class status to the masses. Ah sure ye'll be grand.0
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Im afraid the full university ship has sailed, it should have happened 15 years ago but politics got in the way .We are going to be stuck with the shotgun wedding yellow-pack TU which is going to be plagued with infighting and expensive IR issues.Senator John Cummins gave a speach in the Seanad pushing for the TU application to be taken out of the hands of WIT management through the appointment of external person. I am not sure what he sees at the end of this process that will be in any way positive for Waterford or the SE.
As far as I can see the TU just rationalises the RTC/IoT sector, and reaffirms the binary divide (between RTC and university) and brings the region further away from having a full university.
I think the the merged TU will be actually be less effective that ITCarlow and WIT are at the moment as their focus will be on internal issues trying to merge two organisations who are very different structurally and very distrustful of each other.0 -
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Harry Palmr wrote: »
Yea its going to happen inevitably as the colleges bow to political pressure but I dont think this a positive. Mary Butler is the classic head-down back bencher who wont challenge the status quo, I wonder will she be backing WIT when the big fight comes for the headquarters location0 -
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Simon Harris pre-empts cabinet by annoucing Tom Boland as an "independent expert" to accelerate plans for TUSE.
Worth reading his evidence to PAC and forming your own view about his suitability:
https://www.kildarestreet.com/committees/?id=2015-12-10a.107&s=%22kieran+byrne%22#g2510 -
Simon Harris pre-empts cabinet by annoucing Tom Boland as an "independent expert" to accelerate plans for TUSE.
Worth reading his evidence to PAC and forming your own view about his suitability:
https://www.kildarestreet.com/committees/?id=2015-12-10a.107&s=%22kieran+byrne%22#g251
The same Tom Boland who was a hired gun to write why there should be a third level campus in Kilkenny
https://www.kilkennycoco.ie/eng/Services/Economic-Development/From-Charter-to-Framework-The-case-for-Higher-Education-Provision-in-Kilkenny.pdf
And of course we remember the launch of that document where all of the top brass from Itcarlow attended and only the head of the governing body from WIT was invited ( who has strong ties to Itcarlow as mayor of Wexford with the campus there).
Im not sure you could call him "independant", I fully expect him to recommendation is the corporate headquarters of the TU should be in Kilkenny as a compromise which suits Carlow more than WIT0 -
The same Tom Boland who was a hired gun to write why there should be a third level campus in Kilkenny
https://www.kilkennycoco.ie/eng/Services/Economic-Development/From-Charter-to-Framework-The-case-for-Higher-Education-Provision-in-Kilkenny.pdf
And of course we remember the launch of that document where all of the top brass from Itcarlow attended and only the head of the governing body from WIT was invited ( who has strong ties to Itcarlow as mayor of Wexford with the campus there).
Im not sure you could call him "independant", I fully expect him to recommendation is the corporate headquarters of the TU should be in Kilkenny as a compromise which suits Carlow more than WIT
Why would a HQ in Kilkenny suit Carlow more than WIT?0 -
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KK is 20 mins from Carlow IT on an untolled motorway. WIT is more remote, around 45 minutes including a toll. Overtime it is likely that an active President would want to be close to the action of a campus, and so would bend towards Carlow.
WIT is over twice the size of Carlow, has significant research activity and sought full University status fifteen years ago (with significant repercussions since). Carlow has no desire to be a full university, nor is particularly ambitious to engage in research. If Carlow have strategic control they are likely to orientate towards the old RTC/IoT space, rather than strive to take on the universities.0 -
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WIT is over twice the size of Carlow, has significant research activity and sought full University status fifteen years ago (with significant repercussions since). Carlow has no desire to be a full university, nor is particularly ambitious to engage in research. If Carlow have strategic control they are likely to orientate towards the old RTC/IoT space, rather than strive to take on the universities.
Twice the size? In what regards, square footage?, student numbers?
Other than WIT absurdly seeking University status for 15 years, do you have anything to back up all the other (lets call them) "assumptions" you are stating?0 -
Why would a HQ in Kilkenny suit Carlow more than WIT?Twice the size? In what regards, square footage?, student numbers?
Other than WIT absurdly seeking University status for 15 years, do you have anything to back up all the other (lets call them) "assumptions" you are stating?
The balance sheet of WIT is around €129m, Carlow is €52m in the most recent accounts. That is the normal basis for valuing relativities of a business merging- what assets are being joined.
Overall student populations between Carlow (8,213) and Waterford (8,316) are very close. What closes the gap is part-time, flexible learners where Carlow has considerable strength, but such activity is not the basis for a university. A deeper dive into the HEA returns affirms the scale difference . Using 2018/9 data (which favours Carlow), Carlow has 3,319 level 8 enrolments Waterford has 5,126.... giving a 40/60 split. IT Carlow had 1,092 new entrants, WIT had 1,936 …. a 36/64 split. WIT has 150 PhD students registered, to Carlow's 18... giving a 11/89 split. Worth poking around the HEA Statistics website. Research funding is a massive differential.
So, data rather than assumptions. Not sure about absurd either- if WIT was made a university in 2005 it would have been the largest, most mature institution to cross that threshold- UL, DCU and Maynooth were all much smaller at designation, and far less active at research. It did go to cabinet and apparently lost by a vote. It is also what the region needs to thrive based on universally accepted social and economic analysis.0 -
So Basically WIT are being asked to merge with a part time clown college?0
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At this stage I'd honestly rather keep the status quo. I don't see how having campuses spread out across the SE in Wexford, Kilkenny, Carlow and Waterford is going to benefit us. If anything the offering of courses available in Waterford is going to decrease. We have the best IT in the country. F*ck it, let's keep it that way.
Give us a full university or nothing at all. Our TD's should be shouting this from the rooftops but I think they all know it's not going to happen and the TU is our only option. Another asset stripping of Waterford by the government. We'll look back in 10 years and regret being hoodwinked into this situation.0 -
fitzeyboy. wrote: »So Basically WIT are being asked to merge with a part time clown college?
Yes I'm afraid so and it all comes down to politics within the region.instead of the four counties all coming together and working as a region they are working separately.kilkenny,Wexford Carlow are Leinster counties and see themselves closer to the capital dublin within an hour's drive than see Waterford a city in Munster being slowly cut adrift by governments old/new0 -
fitzeyboy. wrote: »So Basically WIT are being asked to merge with a part time clown college?
I dont think thats fair, ITcarlow is an excellent college and has had a really effective growth strategy over the last 10 years . The problem is the culture between WIT and ITcarlow are very different and from day 1 Carlow have approached this merger with a very confrontational approach.
They have made it clear that they think they are bigger and better than WIT and have gone as far to massage some of their student and research figures to re-enforce this . That combined with the continual political support for ITcarlow which seemed to be pushing them as the leaders of this merger has really pissed off WIT staff .
The history of this merger is murky with the MOU signing-in behind the back of the WIT executive ( by the ex president of Carlow who didn't last long as WIT president after that ) among a number of things that has created a lot of bad blood.0 -
fitzeyboy. wrote: »So Basically WIT are being asked to merge with a part time clown college?
Lovely turn of phrase, but IT Carlow is a good college.
Nonetheless IT Carlow does a very different job to WIT.
IT Carlow is at the Northern edge of the region, and above it there are five universities commutable in the 1hr+ mark, which is at the edge of what is doable for a 4 year degree. Thus IT Carlow’s hinterland (mainly to the North) only supplies students unwilling or unable to enter university- CAO points or money/mindset. IT Carlow’s portfolio of programmes is positioned around having large competitor universities on its doorstep. It is very like Limerick IT and Galway IT in that respect.0 -
Christy Browne wrote: »At this stage I'd honestly rather keep the status quo. I don't see how having campuses spread out across the SE in Wexford, Kilkenny, Carlow and Waterford is going to benefit us. If anything the offering of courses available in Waterford is going to decrease. We have the best IT in the country. F*ck it, let's keep it that way.
Give us a full university or nothing at all. Our TD's should be shouting this from the rooftops but I think they all know it's not going to happen and the TU is our only option. Another asset stripping of Waterford by the government. We'll look back in 10 years and regret being hoodwinked into this situation.
Absolutely, that's why we need a University College Waterford and not a TUSE.0 -
Apologies, I was being a bit facetious with my statement. As you have pointed out ITC still seems to operate more as one of the old RTC's and WIT have moved towards a University model. In an ideal world WIT should be upgraded to a full University and IT Carlow kept as is. This would mean the region would have the best of both worlds, rather than a horrible spread out watered down institution.0
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fitzeyboy. wrote: »Apologies, I was being a bit facetious with my statement. As you have pointed out ITC still seems to operate more as one of the old RTC's and WIT have moved towards a University model. In an ideal world WIT should be upgraded to a full University and IT Carlow kept as is. This would mean the region would have the best of both worlds, rather than a horrible spread out watered down institution.
My bet ? Waterford and Carlow will both be gutted, a new HQ will be formed in KK and the University of Kilkenny will be formed, with Carlow and Waterford as Service units.0 -
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The only way this merger can work is clean house and start again . So the presidents, heads of governing body and governing bodies themselves need to be moved on . The core of the problem here is bad blood, centralized power and lack of communication and engagement.
The Carlow method of operating is centralized power, with a small group of people having all control.Its effectively the secondary school model with the principle and vice principle in charge and micro managing everything. This may work for smaller organizations but is a really poor management approach when scaled up to a larger organisation. WIT has working with a decentralized model for years where school and dept heads are empowered to manage their area's without the president looking over their shoulders
So Carlow brought this approach to the merger with the Carlow president and head of governing body insisting on control on communications and not bringing their management and staff into the process , in fairness to Willies Donnelly he has tried to be more inclusive bit has found it difficult to win staff hearts and minds with the Carlow shadow on his shoulder. This approach has been a massive failure which its evident by he mess the merger has become .
So my solution is move on those people (especially the Carlow president and head of governing body who are toxic now) bring in new independent people and appoint a new independent TU president from the university sector with no skin in the game.Start again by engaging with all staff and communicate all that is happening in the process and allow questions and concerns to be raised . This is very possible as both presidents and heads of governing body terms are up in 2021 so dont reappoint them and bring new blood into the reinvigorate process0 -
The only way this merger can work is clean house and start again . So the presidents, heads of governing body and governing bodies themselves need to be moved on . The core of the problem here is bad blood, centralized power and lack of communication and engagement.
The Carlow method of operating is centralized power, with a small group of people having all control.Its effectively the secondary school model with the principle and vice principle in charge and micro managing everything. This may work for smaller organizations but is a really poor management approach when scaled up to a larger organisation. WIT has working with a decentralized model for years where school and dept heads are empowered to manage their area's without the president looking over their shoulders
So Carlow brought this approach to the merger with the Carlow president and head of governing body insisting on control on communications and not bringing their management and staff into the process , in fairness to Willies Donnelly he has tried to be more inclusive bit has found it difficult to win staff hearts and minds with the Carlow shadow on his shoulder. This approach has been a massive failure which its evident by he mess the merger has become .
So my solution is move on those people (especially the Carlow president and head of governing body who are toxic now) bring in new independent people and appoint a new independent TU president from the university sector with no skin in the game.Start again by engaging with all staff and communicate all that is happening in the process and allow questions and concerns to be raised . This is very possible as both presidents and heads of governing body terms are up in 2021 so dont reappoint them and bring new blood into the reinvigorate process
Honestly I am not sure new leadership can make this work... WIT leaders have been eaten up and chewed out, changing them out changes little. For me what needs to happen is the Government need to put their cards on the table.
#1. WIT is 66% ITCarlow is 33%- the Govt. need to fix the relativity at a fair threshold that reflects the real scale of the organisations. Govt has muddied the water by suggesting that Carlow is equal is size and so the merger is a 50/50 deal. This leads WIT to rightly understand that they are getting screwed in the deal.
#2. HQ location needs to be resolved by Govt, and it needs to follow the fixed relativity. It needs to follow the logic of Ireland2040 and the road/transport investments. The structure must also be developed to start with a federal structure, and then organically integrate/merge technology, shared services, leadership and faculties/schools.
#3. The new investment needs to be identified. DIT got Grangegorman, Cork got €30m. The SE needs around €400m capital over a decade (this is similar to what the 7 trad universities will spend), it needs to start flowing into a single campus. Integration costs of €20-30m need to fronted up, of both Carlow and Waterford students will suffer cuts. Finally running costs need to be bumped up from IoT funding to university funding (around 20%-20% rise).
#4. A new discipline needs to be approved and funded ASAP- medicine or teaching, to show a commitment to growth. It needs to be high touch and in the university space.
#5. The microcampus BS needs to end. Stringing KK and WX along is cruel when Govt and WIT/IT Carlow know it is bull****. Maynooth in KK, TippInst... we know microcampuses (particularly politically mandated ones with no sustainable business model) are destined to fail. Rather the institutions should be given funding to support organic emergence of microcampuses (the Kildalton/KK campus where WIT agriculture/hort/forestry is run is a good example), but the institutions need flexibility (so to try things, quickly change them if they fail, and find out what might work) and time to create real and sustainable regional hubs to support enterprise and some courses delivered in blended modes.
#6. Nurture honest and broad university style leadership. A small team of institutional leadership with little communication is a recipe for disaster. Townhall meetings, committees, talking shops are needed for people to get to know each other, align interests and build trust. This is expensive (and fluffy), it needs serious resourcing- circa €2m. A commercial company really merging would acknowledge this, it is difficult for public sector organisations to be seen to pay for this. The union is an important stakeholder here, but not the only one, and management need to bring people from across the institutions into the merge.
Some of this would be a good start.0 -
This is one of the best comments ever written on this thread and I couldn't agree more with it . Its an an excellent well through road-map to a successful merger .But unfortunately I cant see the government coming up with this sort of a plan . I fully expect the merger to be pushed through and the institutes told to go sort it out afterwards. And if anyone raises an issue with that we will get the " Sure you got a university what more so you want " approachHonestly I am not sure new leadership can make this work... WIT leaders have been eaten up and chewed out, changing them out changes little. For me what needs to happen is the Government need to put their cards on the table.
#1. WIT is 66% ITCarlow is 33%- the Govt. need to fix the relativity at a fair threshold that reflects the real scale of the organisations. Govt has muddied the water by suggesting that Carlow is equal is size and so the merger is a 50/50 deal. This leads WIT to rightly understand that they are getting screwed in the deal.
#2. HQ location needs to be resolved by Govt, and it needs to follow the fixed relativity. It needs to follow the logic of Ireland2040 and the road/transport investments. The structure must also be developed to start with a federal structure, and then organically integrate/merge technology, shared services, leadership and faculties/schools.
#3. The new investment needs to be identified. DIT got Grangegorman, Cork got €30m. The SE needs around €400m capital over a decade (this is similar to what the 7 trad universities will spend), it needs to start flowing into a single campus. Integration costs of €20-30m need to fronted up, of both Carlow and Waterford students will suffer cuts. Finally running costs need to be bumped up from IoT funding to university funding (around 20%-20% rise).
#4. A new discipline needs to be approved and funded ASAP- medicine or teaching, to show a commitment to growth. It needs to be high touch and in the university space.
#5. The microcampus BS needs to end. Stringing KK and WX along is cruel when Govt and WIT/IT Carlow know it is bull****. Maynooth in KK, TippInst... we know microcampuses (particularly politically mandated ones with no sustainable business model) are destined to fail. Rather the institutions should be given funding to support organic emergence of microcampuses (the Kildalton/KK campus where WIT agriculture/hort/forestry is run is a good example), but the institutions need flexibility (so to try things, quickly change them if they fail, and find out what might work) and time to create real and sustainable regional hubs to support enterprise and some courses delivered in blended modes.
#6. Nurture honest and broad university style leadership. A small team of institutional leadership with little communication is a recipe for disaster. Townhall meetings, committees, talking shops are needed for people to get to know each other, align interests and build trust. This is expensive (and fluffy), it needs serious resourcing- circa €2m. A commercial company really merging would acknowledge this, it is difficult for public sector organisations to be seen to pay for this. The union is an important stakeholder here, but not the only one, and management need to bring people from across the institutions into the merge.
Some of this would be a good start.0 -
Painfully sensible post from Invara. Does anyone think that Simon Harris the Minister for Higher Education really gives a toss about WIT? Or that such rational argument would appeal to that boy? Or his amanuensis Jim Breslin? We are swimming in a bucket of political s**t. Why do you think Tom Boland (with all the anti WIT baggage that man has) ex head of HEA has been appointed to expedite delivery of TUSE? Its a stinker.0
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This shows us where the TU in the south east is headed
https://www.radiokerry.ie/tui-questions-financial-viability-mtu/
The TUI concerns are very valid - lack of consultation and meaningful engagement; new structures and models not agreed; operational structures and policies for MTU; financial viability; and international panel concerns. WIT facts the exact same situation with lack of engagement with staff on operational and structure and massive financial and funding questions
This stuff makes my blood boil , how can you have a successful merger without consultation and meaningful engagement with staff. It sickens me to hear all the game changer for the southeast generic rubbish that comes out of local politicans and business stakeholders who have done no research into the process and the immense difficulties that a merger causes.
We are going to be left in mess with just a name change after this , the only positive I can draw is we can watch the MTU disappear into the hole ahead of us and when it crashes and burns it might show people how ****ed up this whole process is .
PS Tom Boland is the fixer who got MTU over the line by mainly ignoring staff and union concerns and driving on regardless by the looks of it. He is now going to do the same for the TUSEI - ( by thy way that is the most clunky name I have ever heard for an institution) . But I think he will find the unions in WIT have a few more teeth0 -
the only positive I can draw is we can watch the MTU disappear into the hole ahead of us
I think you might be disappointed as I fully expect this to be shored up and funded as required ....... it is after all in the heartland of the politicians with the most power/influence.
Too important to them to be let fail!0 -
Im not the biggest fan of David Cullinane but his commentary on the TU in the news and star is spot on
https://waterford-news.ie/2020/08/08/a-region-at-a-cross-roads-needs-a-university-of-purpose/#.XzJkjihKhPY
"Changing the name plate on the wall with a ribbon cut by whoever is the Minister of the day will not deliver the new funding, the additional research and development opportunities and the added social and economic value a University must bring.
Fine words butter no parsnips. Cutting a ribbon is not a vision.
The process now more than ever has to be underpinned by trust and credibility. Those driving the project must have an open mind and working to an educational and not a political solution.
Much work needs to be done. It remains to be seen whether we get a new regional university of international standing or a name change that leaves us worse off than we currently are."
These words reflect what has been said by a lot of the posters on this tread for the last 5 years. From day one the TU has been a political solution to a educational problem and if it continues that way ( which I think is sadly enviable) we will as David said end up worse off than we are now .0 -
Im not the biggest fan of David Cullinane but his commentary on the TU in the news and star is spot on
https://waterford-news.ie/2020/08/08/a-region-at-a-cross-roads-needs-a-university-of-purpose/#.XzJkjihKhPY
"Changing the name plate on the wall with a ribbon cut by whoever is the Minister of the day will not deliver the new funding, the additional research and development opportunities and the added social and economic value a University must bring.
Fine words butter no parsnips. Cutting a ribbon is not a vision.
The process now more than ever has to be underpinned by trust and credibility. Those driving the project must have an open mind and working to an educational and not a political solution.
Much work needs to be done. It remains to be seen whether we get a new regional university of international standing or a name change that leaves us worse off than we currently are."
These words reflect what has been said by a lot of the posters on this tread for the last 5 years. From day one the TU has been a political solution to a educational problem and if it continues that way ( which I think is sadly enviable) we will as David said end up worse off than we are now .
Just seems like standard Sinn Fein to me. He never really got behind the university for Waterford campaign. Now the final result is starting to play out he says it is all wrong. Kind of sums up Sinn Fein for me.0 -
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Just seems like standard Sinn Fein to me. He never really got behind the university for Waterford campaign. Now the final result is starting to play out he says it is all wrong. Kind of sums up Sinn Fein for me.
Im no Sinn Fein supporter but he has this one completely right, the government needs to stump up the cash to scale up from what we have already.Otherwise its just another re-brand like RTC to IT and we have been down that road.
As Invara said in his recent post on what it takes to become a reach university standards#3. The new investment needs to be identified. DIT got Grangegorman, Cork got €30m. The SE needs around €400m capital over a decade (this is similar to what the 7 trad universities will spend), it needs to start flowing into a single campus. Integration costs of €20-30m need to fronted up, of both Carlow and Waterford students will suffer cuts. Finally running costs need to be bumped up from IoT funding to university funding (around 20%-20% rise).
#4. A new discipline needs to be approved and funded ASAP- medicine or teaching, to show a commitment to growth. It needs to be high touch and in the university space.
Thats the kind of investment that would actually make a difference , unfortunately we wont even get a fraction of that. My great fear is we end up with a rebrand , two ITs still operating at IT level and crawling painfully through a merger to end up TU that is never going to come near university levels of investment or reputation.0
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