Cyclists, insurance and road tax

Duckjob · 19-04-2021 12:25pm

Eric Cartman wrote: »

we already have an insane level of traffic policing in Ireland, check out the Garda traffic twitter, enforcement on motorists isn't the issue, we already have it.

Eric Cartman · 19-04-2021 12:25pm

Seth Brundle wrote: »

Helmets are not designed to protect the wearer in an impact from a vehicle. Do you wear one whilst driving?

Demanding high-viz for cyclists is simply placing the onus for safety on the vulnerable road user and away from the road user who is the one who can do the damage. Is your car high-viz?

They're designed to prevent injury to cyclists coming off a bike and hitting the road, be it caused by vehicle or road debris etc..

Every car has reflectors, headlights, trucks have side markers and reflective strips , there are tonnes of crumple zones and safety systems in cars to protect occupants. Cars are built with safety systems built in. Every road user should have safety and visibility equipment on them , cyclists are not immune to this.

A motorist driving around in a car with no lights on at night, no working reflectors etc. is illegal , for good reason. The same should be for cyclists.

Joe4321 · 19-04-2021 12:26pm

@statto25, nó problems, just having a laugh at how sensative all the cyclist are and that there is knotting that they are doing is wrong, or knotting they can do to suggest how they can improve their safety and other road users safety. How are you today, hope you are enjoying this wonderful Monday.

Joe4321 · 19-04-2021 12:28pm

You have an option so you are getting stressed, eeem, intelligent comment

ted1 · 19-04-2021 12:28pm

kirving wrote: »

I agree for the most part, but it's also important to point out that you mean large scale health benefits, not on an individual level.

If I fall off my bike, which I do regularly in the mountains, I sure as hell want my helmet. I'll get torrents of abuse about this along the lines of "doctors are not statisticians", but on multiple occasions in hospital for cycling injuries, almost every doctor and surgeon told me an anecdote about patients who didn't wear a helmet being in a bad way.

Should they be mandatory, not a chance. As you say, I'd probably hop in the car or get a bus rather than have to grab the helmet and then carry it around the shop or pub.

I think we agree that the general thread is talking about commuters/road cyclists.

I don’t agree with using Doctors for examples. They only see the bad things.

If I fall down the stairs. The doctor will see stairs as a damaged and recommend people to live in a bungalow

AndrewJRenko · 19-04-2021 12:30pm

Sono Topolino wrote: »

And in rural areas, the only cyclists I see are doing it as a form of exercise on a road built for cars and tractors, slowing all the traffic down and endangering all road users.

How can you tell the purpose of a cyclist's journey, or any road user's journey by looking at them?

Can cyclists who are cycling to work expect all those drivers who are driving to go for a walk or play football to pull over and let the cyclist through?

AndrewJRenko · 19-04-2021 12:31pm

Joe4321 wrote: »

@set, yes it would, iit would be called family insurance, as for price, that would be down to the insurance companys just like car insurance is, I would say it would be very reasonable at first but as the claims rise just like motor claims so would the cost, why would you have a problem with having cover in place for your family, we buy motor, house, travel insurance why not cycle insurance

Again, what risk are you hoping that cyclists will insure against?

Do pedestrians need insurance to cover comparable risks?

statto25 · 19-04-2021 12:33pm

Joe4321 wrote: »

@statto25, nó problems, just having a laugh at how sensative all the cyclist are and that there is knotting that they are doing is wrong, or knotting they can do to suggest how they can improve their safety and other road users safety. How are you today, hope you are enjoying this wonderful Monday.

So youre acknowledging your on the wind up, fair play. Im wonderful actually, thank you for asking!

AndrewJRenko · 19-04-2021 12:34pm

zerosugarbuzz wrote: »

Fully agree that cyclists should have insurance and pay road tax. I’d go a step further and have them sit a test and undergo NCTs for their bikes too. The vast majority of them display either pure ignorance or total disregard for the rules of the road, putting themselves, pedestrians and drivers at risk. If the same rules applied to them as say motor cyclists it might sharpen their behavior.

We have 98% of motorists breaking urban speed limits, and the majority of drivers using their phones while driving, so 'pure ignorance or total disregard for the rules' seems to be fairly endemic.

What makes you think that there is a connection between insurance, road tax, and compliance with traffic laws?

Eric Cartman · 19-04-2021 12:34pm

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

We have 98% of motorists breaking urban speed limits, and the majority of drivers using their phones while driving, so 'pure ignorance or total disregard for the rules' seems to be fairly endemic.

What makes you think that there is a connection between insurance, road tax, and compliance with traffic laws?

Id love to see where either of those stats come from.

zerosugarbuzz · 19-04-2021 12:34pm

Duckjob wrote: »

So lets see...

Point about studies that universally show cyclists no worse behaved than motorists.... IGNORED

Point about why speed bumps are needed everywhere in built up areas .... IGNORED

Feel free to actually address either or both of the points made.

In fairness neither point is worth addressing, though I did mention the speed bumps being a positive IMO.

Joe4321 · 19-04-2021 12:35pm

What risks are are cars insured for, third party?? What risk are builders covered for???

AndrewJRenko · 19-04-2021 12:35pm

Joe4321 wrote: »

A question for all the cyclist here, would you be in favour for a registration for your bike so you could be identified just like car owners can be from there Reg plates, if yes, why and also if no, why??

Would you wear a registration plate when out walking on the footpath or crossing the road, so you can be identified just like car owners? If not, why not?

Chips Lovell · 19-04-2021 12:36pm

If a cyclist is not insured, they are still potentially liable for any damages they cause. Some cyclists are insured. Some aren't.

Mandatory motor insurance exists because the number and cost of accidents was high enough that it was decided that the cost of enforcement was outweighed by the societal benefit of obligating motorists to insure themselves. You'd need a massive increase in the number of accidents for the same argument to be made for cyclists.

Simply saying you should have compulsory insurance because you might have an accident means the same logic would call for compulsory pedestrian insurance and suchlike.

Regarding tax, even if motoring taxes covered the entire road building and maintenance budget, there is little likelihood that cyclists will ever be taxed. The policy of successive governments has been to incentivise cycling and disincentivise private car journeys. Nobody is going to change that.

kirving · 19-04-2021 12:36pm

Seth Brundle wrote: »

Demanding high-viz for cyclists is simply placing the onus for safety on the vulnerable road user and away from the road user who is the one who can do the damage. Is your car high-viz?

FWIW I agree on mandatory hi-vis and reflective being a bad thing for society in general, but have you done the safepass course? Pardon the pun but it's eye opening to say the least. It's the little glimpse of a yellow jacket that in the corner of the drivers eye that has saved many peoples lives.

Provis 360 jackets are fantastic IME, I find drivers see me age away in the city, and generally have plenty of time to plan an overtake, rather than seeing me late and becoming impatient. That's their problem of course, but I would suffer the consequences

On the car point, darker coloured cars are more likely to be involved in collisions, are are light greys and greens as they are more likely to blend in with the environment. They're not banned, but they do pay higher premiums in some cases. Daytime running lights are also mandatory for all new cars, and if I remember correctly, cut collisions in some areas by over 30%.

Thelonious Monk · 19-04-2021 12:37pm

The announcement that the Gov is to spend 360 million on walking/cycling must be salt in the wounds of the bike haters. The tide is turning! The government are spending the road tax you worked so hard to pay for, on cycling. Brilliant!

Joe4321 · 19-04-2021 12:37pm

@Statto25, not haveing a laugh but laughing at how all the cyclist are saying that everyone else is the problem

statto25 · 19-04-2021 12:38pm

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Would you wear a registration plate when out walking on the footpath or crossing the road, so you can be identified just like car owners? If not, why not?

You could place it across your ar$e

AndrewJRenko · 19-04-2021 12:38pm

ExMachina1000 wrote: »

How about some kind of cushioning system around the outside of cars incase of an impact with a cyclist or pedestrian?

Or maybe just we could take those vehicles with bull bars off the road? And those vehicles with high fronts that smash up the pelvis and vital organs in a crash instead of just smashing up the lower legs, can we get those off the road too?

Eric Cartman · 19-04-2021 12:38pm

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

The announcement that the Gov is to spend 360 million on walking/cycling must be salt in the wounds of the bike haters. The tide is turning!

Thats well known and was the fee to get Eamon Ryan to bring the greens into government, They had to conceed on loads more of their looney policies to get that. Thankfully many councils will misappropriate the funds into fixing roads that benefit motorists.

AndrewJRenko · 19-04-2021 12:40pm

Eric Cartman wrote: »

Sure even asking them to wear helmets is met with scorn, they want it every way

Yes, everytime I point out that vastly more head injuries happen in cars than on bikes, even with seat belts and airbags, my asking of motorists to wear helmets is indeed met with scorn, they want it every way.

Fighting Tao · 19-04-2021 12:40pm

Eric Cartman wrote: »

Thats well known and was the fee to get Eamon Ryan to bring the greens into government, They had to conceed on loads more of their looney policies to get that. Thankfully many councils will misappropriate the funds into fixing roads that benefit motorists.

Fixing potholes is surprisingly good for cyclists too. It encourages more people to cycle as there is one less potential excuse

FileNotFound · 19-04-2021 12:40pm

I personally think that we should have cameras on every lights, and average speed cams throughout the whole of urban areas.
Then we should have congestion charges in any city center location and increased parking costs.

Then the state can found a company to create cycling insurance and we can add a new on the road tax to all transport forms so that everyone is paying a tax of sorts. Then we can equip bikes with a system of identification (what i've no idea).

Then we can do away with cycle lanes as bikes care now insured and taxed so can use the general road, overtaking rules apply as with cars.

Then we can heavily fine any road user that does not use the road as the law states.

ExMachina1000 · 19-04-2021 12:40pm

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Or maybe just we could take those vehicles with bull bars off the road? And those vehicles with high fronts that smash up the pelvis and vital organs in a crash instead of just smashing up the lower legs, can we get those off the road too?

I'm not aware of those vehicles.

What brand or type of vehicle are they?

AndrewJRenko · 19-04-2021 12:41pm

ExMachina1000 wrote: »

No I don't think so. Accidents will always happen regardless.

Maybe a cushioning system around bicycles then? To protect the pedestrians

They're not accidents, they are crashes, and they are mostly avoidable.

https://crashnotaccident.com/

Thelonious Monk · 19-04-2021 12:41pm

Eric Cartman wrote: »

Thats well known and was the fee to get Eamon Ryan to bring the greens into government, They had to conceed on loads more of their looney policies to get that. Thankfully many councils will misappropriate the funds into fixing roads that benefit motorists.

I think they're being held to account a bit more this time as to where the money goes, and you can see this already that actual infrastructure is being built.
All so middle class lefties like me can cycle to work as I can afford to live close to the city centre while the hard working road taxed penalised men like yourself have to live in the middle of nowhere and drive 2 hours to work every day.
Our leftie plan is in full motion, I love it.

AndrewJRenko · 19-04-2021 12:42pm

Joe4321 wrote: »

@Set, you say most clubs are covered and you are covered when out, so you do agree with insurance,???

Do you need someone to explain to you the difference in risk and danger between club cycling and everyday cycling?

Joe4321 · 19-04-2021 12:43pm

Andrew why are you getting annoyed,

micah537 · 19-04-2021 12:44pm

A (probably stupid) question for cyclists.
Some have bikes worth a couple of grand. Can you or do you insure them incase they are stolen or damaged? How much would it cost?

I haven't cycled since I was a kid and have no intention of getting into it but, why tax them since they don't cause damage to roads or pollute? They reduce traffic and the cyclists normally aren't obese so they won't be taking up hospital beds due to related illness.

AndrewJRenko · 19-04-2021 12:44pm

Joe4321 wrote: »

So the people that you look up to in the tour de France are been inconvenienced by weeing helmets, wowwww

Well, weeing in helmets is definitely an inconvenience. It tends to leave a nasty smell.

And the people you look up to in Formula 1 are been (sic) inconvenienced by wearing helmets? Why don't you wear a crash helmet in the car?

Duckjob · 19-04-2021 12:46pm

micah537 wrote: »

A (probably stupid) question for cyclists.
Some have bikes worth a couple of grand. Can you or do you insure them incase they are stolen or damaged? How much would it cost?

I haven't cycled since I was a kid and have no intention of getting into it but, why tax them since they don't cause damage to roads or pollute? They reduce traffic and the cyclists normally aren't obese so they won't be taking up hospital beds due to related illness.

That's far too much common sense in one post, my friend.

Joe4321 · 19-04-2021 12:46pm

Andrew, calm down, I hope your not on your bike

AndrewJRenko · 19-04-2021 12:46pm

ExMachina1000 wrote: »

They could be dealing drugs. Nipping around cities delivering class A product.
Theres one example

So should all wearers of Canada Goose coats wear registration numbers too, given that they could be dealing class A product?

AndrewJRenko · 19-04-2021 12:47pm

Joe4321 wrote: »

@Seth, I do agree with having insurance, and yes if a kid is out on a public road it would be required also, the registration is also a big thing for identification, the guards could also use this for issueing fines, but I sure I will be told that cyclists don't break any traffic rules, why would you be against registering your bycicle?

Are you against insurance and registration for pedestrians? Why are you against registering your shoes?

AndrewJRenko · 19-04-2021 12:48pm

Joe4321 wrote: »

Helmets save lives, fact, I can't believe cyclist on here are against the wearing of them, very interesting, you don't need to be traveling 100kpm to get a head injury,

Do you wear helmets in the car, or when doing other activities with similar head injury rates to cyclist, such as walking, or when in the shower? If helmets save lives, why do you solely focus on helmets for cycling, and not other equally dangerous activities?

Odyssey 2005 · 19-04-2021 12:48pm

That didn't take long

Tony EH · 19-04-2021 12:49pm

Sono Topolino wrote: »

My opinions on this are not welcome on the cycling forum, so here we go.

Why is it such a taboo to request cyclists to get insurance and pay taxes for the roads that they use, just like car drivers do?

"There is no such thing as road tax" cyclists bleat - except there are plenty of taxes that other road users have to pay, and cyclists pay none of them. There are plenty of tax breaks which cyclists can avail of, and second hand bikes which are dickied up to be as good as new are even VAT free.

I agree that cycling is worth encouraging in big cities like Dublin, where it is a superior form of transport, but the cycle lanes have to be paid for from somewhere. And in rural areas, the only cyclists I see are doing it as a form of exercise on a road built for cars and tractors, slowing all the traffic down and endangering all road users. If cyclists want to cycle on main roads in rural Ireland, then they should pay for greenways for this purpose.

Until then, they're a nuisance and a menace. So cyclists really have no arguments against mandatory insurance either. Before giving them insurance, I assume those companies will want evidence that cyclists know the rules of the road - something which currently they are not required to be remotely aware of.

It's a pity I can't actually address this point to cyclists in the cycling forum.

You can't address it, Mickey Mouse, because it's bollocks. The IS no such thing as "road tax". There's a motor tax, which a bicycle doesn't have.

Plus, cyclists DO pay taxes, just like everyone else. It goes into general taxation...some of which goes towards roads.

Into the bargain, most cyclists are also motorists.

AndrewJRenko · 19-04-2021 12:49pm

Joe4321 wrote: »

How much damage do cyclists cause to cars as they zigzag between then, its about taking responsibility for you actions on the road, be able to be identified if by chance to cause damage as you pass through traffic, but I'm sure that never happens

That's a really great question - how much damage do cyclists cause?

Is there any possibility that you got an answer to this question BEFORE you came up with your great ideas?

Padre_Pio · 19-04-2021 12:50pm

Eric Cartman wrote: »

. Thankfully many councils will misappropriate the funds into fixing roads that benefit motorists.

And cyclists.
And motorists who are also cyclists.

This topic came up before and someone did a calculation based on road damage , car Vs bicycle.

Basically, if cyclists were to pay "road" tax, they would pay so little the system would lose money.

ExMachina1000 · 19-04-2021 12:52pm

Padre_Pio wrote: »

And cyclists.
And motorists who are also cyclists.

And also pedestrians who are motorists

AndrewJRenko · 19-04-2021 12:52pm

ek motor wrote: »

Enough of this victim mentality nonsense. No one hates you. Merely suggesting you should be insured/licenced/accountable for yourself and your chosen vehicle like motorists are.

Why would you think that the same levels of insurance/licencing/accountability would be appropriate for;
1) a 1-4 tonne vehicle doing 20-150 kmph, and
2) a 10-20 kg bike going 10-30 kmph

Do you need someone to explain the different levels of danger involved here?

Duckjob · 19-04-2021 12:53pm

Padre_Pio wrote: »

And cyclists.
And motorists who are also cyclists.

Don't confuse him

In this poster's world, you have "motorists" over on one side, and "cyclists" over on the other, and never the twain shall meet.

The fact that around 80% of adult cyclists are also regular motorists is a fact that doesn't fit into the 1 dimensional model many seem to hold in their heads.

AndrewJRenko · 19-04-2021 12:54pm

ExMachina1000 wrote: »

A system similarly to ANPR would also highlight stolen bicycles to police. I understand bicycle theft is a bit of an issue in Ireland at present

I understand that car theft is a bit of an issue in Ireland at present. ANPR hasn't solved it.

Joe4321 wrote: »

@Seth, why is it a pointless argument, a lot of people would like to see this implament, there are a lot of incidences that occcure everyday of the week but don't get reported due to the fact that there is no way to identafie these culprits, as for cycling being the solution to obesity, we'll maybe you need to rethink that, people are not been put out by cyclists as you suggest they just want accountability,

Cycling is being prescribed by NHS doctors as a solution to obesity. Cycling to work results in a near halving of cancer rates.

But tell us more about all these incidents that don't get reported - how do you know about these? Do you find a lot of incidents with cyclists happening to you?

AndrewJRenko · 19-04-2021 12:55pm

zerosugarbuzz wrote: »

You may well be a good cyclist. Unfortunately there are very many on the roads who are absolutely terrible cyclists. I’ll never understand why cyclists feel the need to defend all cyclists no matter how bad they are. They must see how bad a lot of them are too jut are just in some extreme form of denial.

Motorists kill 2 or 3 people on the road each week. 98% of motorists break urban speed limits. The majority of motorists use their phones while driving.

Tell me again why we need to be focusing on cyclists please?

AndrewJRenko · 19-04-2021 12:56pm

Joe4321 wrote: »

Car drivers were set belts, have air bags in there car, have day time lights on, are you suggesting that kids should not were a helmet?? Please inlighting me

Yes, seat belts, air bags, and still vastly higher numbers of head injuries happening in cars than on bikes.

So are you suggesting that motorists should not wear a helmet? Please inlighting me?

Speaking of day time lights, have you any plans for dealing with the drivers I see each day in winter time driving round in the dark with no back lights because they don't know how their DRLs work?

wpd · 19-04-2021 12:56pm

I am a cyclist and have insurance through my cycling ireland licence
I own two cars so pay "motor tax" however I am still almost killed every time i cycle by dangerous motorists who do not treat me with
any respect or even follow the rules of the road in relation to overtaking cyclists

prosecution of rule breaking cyclists and motorist is what is required
Green party acting like they are doing great things for cyclists while drivers attitudes to cyclists makes the roads
more dangerous and commuting by bike is a death defying experience

Padre_Pio · 19-04-2021 12:58pm

I dunno.
Just seems like bitching tbh and a serious Us vs them mentality.
Motorists have no high ground to argue about cyclist safety or responsibility.

I went for a spin this weekend and got held up in a tailback behind a car doing the speed limit.

I set my cruise control for 120 on the motorway and I'm constantly overtaken.

There's several sets of traffic lights near me that always have amber gamblers and clear red light breakers.

The GATSO van on the road near me makes an absolute fortune. Several of my friends have gotten stung there.

In risk vs harm, bicycles are safer, and that's really all there is to it.

lawrencesummers · 19-04-2021 12:58pm

When we get done taxing bikes can we then tax prams?

Pesky prams out using the roads and footpaths and not a cent of tax paid.

Then Skateboards.

And scooters then after that.

And then we should have enough money to get the OP a long overdue education

AndrewJRenko · 19-04-2021 12:59pm

Joe4321 wrote: »

@ted1, really, that's your argument, a little bit of discomfort that could save you life, tells me everything

So you'll definitely be wearing a crash helmet in the car in future now? Surely a little bit of discomfort wouldn't put you off something that would save your life?

fergiesfolly · 19-04-2021 12:59pm

Why is it, that people get riled when posters refer to car tax as road tax.
It's the same thing.
I can have a hundred cars out the back of my house and if they don't go on a public road, I don't have to pay a penny in "car tax"
The minute I drive onto a public highway, I must have tax on my car.
A tax to allow me use my car on the road.
A road tax.

Cyclists, insurance and road tax

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