Budget 2019 and EV

ELM327 · 09-10-2018 2:26pm #1

Not expecting much this year, but these are the main notables as fair as reducing our emissions:

He will be introducing a new accelerated capital allowances scheme for gas-propelled vehicles and refuelling equipment.
This is designed to encourage the uptake of gas-propelled commercial vehicles as an economic and environmentally friendly alternative to diesel

On carbon tax:
“It is my intention to put in place a long-term trajectory for carbon tax increases out to 2030 in line with the recommendations of the Climate Change Advisory Council and the special Oireachtas Committee which are examining climate changes.”

Ireland will no longer purchase diesel only busses after July of next year. In line with several other EU states, there will be a 1 per cent surcharge for diesel vehicles across all VRT bands.The minister is extending VRT relief for hybrid vehicles until 2019

Have to say I don't care for the gas related thing as it's still a fossil fuel at the end of the day.
(Quotes lifted from https://liveblog.irishtimes.com/4d29d48a9f/Live%3A-Budget-2019/)

mccannf · 09-10-2018 2:40pm

From http://www.budget.gov.ie/Budgets/2019/Documents/2.%20Budget%202019%20Tax%20Policy%20Changes.pdf

The 0% Benefit-in-kind rate for electric vehicles is being extended
for a period of 3 years, with a cap of €50,000 on the Original Market
Value of the vehicle.

KCross · 09-10-2018 2:43pm

mccannf wrote: »

The 0% Benefit-in-kind rate for electric vehicles is being extended for a period of 3 years, with a cap of €50,000 on the Original Market Value of the vehicle.

Thats an interesting one. So what happens if you have bought a Model S on the back of last years budget (which people have)?

ELM327 · 09-10-2018 2:44pm

KCross wrote: »

Thats an interesting one. So what happens if you have bought a Model S on the back of last years budget (which people have)?

Ouchies. That's not good.
I assume they will grandfather in the existing cars.
I'd imagine the vast majority of EV purchased under the BIK scheme were Teslas - given how hard Tesla Ireland lobbied for this change last year.

Shefwedfan · 09-10-2018 2:45pm

Gas propelled???? what the hell is that?

VRT 1% is not on imports as well? will it push up the price of new?

Apart from that they are a useless shower

KCross · 09-10-2018 2:45pm

ELM327 wrote: »

A 1% VRT surcharge is being brought in for diesel engine passenger vehicles registering in the State from 1 January 2019.

How do you interpret that figure. The word surcharge is confusing it a bit.

Is it a 1% surcharge of the RRP? Or is it just that a car that was paying, say, 20% VRT is now paying 21%?

Shefwedfan · 09-10-2018 2:46pm

mccannf wrote: »

From http://www.budget.gov.ie/Budgets/2019/Documents/2.%20Budget%202019%20Tax%20Policy%20Changes.pdf

eGolf will be happy with that proposal....Majority of cars would have been Tesla so that is a kick in the teeth

Maybe might push them to release the Model 3 earlier but I doubt it

ELM327 · 09-10-2018 2:49pm

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Gas propelled???? what the hell is that?

VRT 1% is not on imports as well? will it push up the price of new?

Apart from that they are a useless shower

Gas propelled is LPG. I knew from my prior correspondence that this was likely to come in (i had provided a written response to the committee but it was clearly ignored).

1% VRT is across the board in my reading.

KCross wrote: »

How do you interpret that figure. The word surcharge is confusing it a bit.

Is it a 1% surcharge of the RRP? Or is it just that a car that was paying, say, 20% VRT is now paying 21%?

I would imagine (because people working in politics are generally not mathematics savvy) that they meant 1 percentage point as opposed to 1%.

So if they were paying 20% they will now pay 21%, not (20*1.01)%

KCross · 09-10-2018 2:50pm

I'd see this as the potential end to hybrid and PHEV subsidies...

Extension of VRT relief for hybrid and plug-in hybrid vehicles
The VRT relief available for conventional hybrids and plug-in electric hybrids is being extended for a period of one year, until end 2019.

No mention of the grant or BEV's. He specifically just mentioned VRT relief for hybrid and PHEV.

ELM327 · 09-10-2018 2:53pm

It's the same wording as other years, but I reckon this year they emphasised it (by leaving out BEV/grants) as the UK look to be ending their grants for PHEV

zilog_jones · 09-10-2018 3:25pm

ELM327 wrote: »

Gas propelled is LPG.

Are you sure? All the talk about commercial vehicles this year has been with CNG.

ELM327 · 09-10-2018 3:34pm

zilog_jones wrote: »

Are you sure? All the talk about commercial vehicles this year has been with CNG.

The report from the budgetary oversight committee actually mentions both so it could actually be both.
However with practically 0 refuelling stations for CNG, LPG is likely to be more practical.

n97 mini · 09-10-2018 3:34pm

zilog_jones wrote: »

Are you sure? All the talk about commercial vehicles this year has been with CNG.

I would think it's CNG and LPG, but you're right, the "environmentally friendly" gas is considered CNG.

ELM327 · 09-10-2018 3:42pm

ELM327 wrote: »

The report from the budgetary oversight committee actually mentions both so it could actually be both.
However with practically 0 refuelling stations for CNG, LPG is likely to be more practical.

n97 mini wrote: »

I would think it's CNG and LPG, but you're right, the "environmentally friendly" gas is considered CNG.

As I say above, i think it's both, as described by the Budgetary Oversight Committee report.

Shefwedfan · 09-10-2018 4:01pm

Who sells LPG cars these days anyway?

I know one fueling station but that would actually suit me as not massively far away.....

For a PHEV buyer you are better buying up now as in 12 months it will probably be gone

Marcusm · 09-10-2018 4:02pm

ELM327 wrote: »

Ouchies. That's not good.
I assume they will grandfather in the existing cars.
I'd imagine the vast majority of EV purchased under the BIK scheme were Teslas - given how hard Tesla Ireland lobbied for this change last year.

We'll have to wait and see the draft clauses next week. Given that any existing purchase was on the back of a 1 year BIK exemption, no-one can call foul at the imposition of the OMV limit, i.e. they cannot assert that they were fooled into buying it or that there is a retrospective imposition.

Marcusm · 09-10-2018 4:05pm

ELM327 wrote: »

Gas propelled is LPG. I knew from my prior correspondence that this was likely to come in (i had provided a written response to the committee but it was clearly ignored).

1% VRT is across the board in my reading.

I would imagine (because people working in politics are generally not mathematics savvy) that they meant 1 percentage point as opposed to 1%.

So if they were paying 20% they will now pay 21%, not (20*1.01)%

I would say that it will include CNG or any form of liquefied gas. Also, agree with you ont he likely imposition of VRT; it will apply to all registrations. (new or import could not be distinguished between) and will add 1% to the pertinent VRT rate for the particular car rather than increase the computed VRT by 1%.

ELM327 · 09-10-2018 4:05pm

Marcusm wrote: »

We'll have to wait and see the draft clauses next week. Given that any existing purchase was on the back of a 1 year BIK exemption, no-one can call foul at the imposition of the OMV limit, i.e. they cannot assert that they were fooled into buying it or that there is a retrospective imposition.

Considering the language used by the minister at the time was that the scheme was 1 year with the intention that it would be extended 3-5, I would disagree.

Marcusm · 09-10-2018 4:15pm

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Who sells LPG cars these days anyway?

I know one fueling station but that would actually suit me as not massively far away.....

For a PHEV buyer you are better buying up now as in 12 months it will probably be gone

It's more of an issue for commercial vehicles -buses and trucks. For these, I would expect a lot of the refuelling to be depot based, especially in urban areas where the NOx issues are most significant. There was a specific commitment not to buy diesel buses from (I think) mid next year for anything subject to NTA.

Marcusm · 09-10-2018 4:17pm

ELM327 wrote: »

Considering the language used by the minister at the time was that the scheme was 1 year with the intention that it would be extended 3-5, I would disagree.

I can see why you'd argue that but it was not a commitment and the 0% BIK could simply have been discontinued. Sympathy for Tesla Model S buyers at DoF will be rarer than unicorn's tears.

Shefwedfan · 09-10-2018 4:21pm

Marcusm wrote: »

It's more of an issue for commercial vehicles -buses and trucks. For these, I would expect a lot of the refuelling to be depot based, especially in urban areas where the NOx issues are most significant. There was a specific commitment not to buy diesel buses from (I think) mid next year for anything subject to NTA.

They released a tender earlier this year, It seemed to be some sort of a review of buses and renewable fuels....I guess this is the outcome.....

bk · 09-10-2018 4:21pm

Yes, I'd say the Biogas/CNG thing is mostly aimed at the likes of Dublin Bus, BE, etc.

There have been rumours of them looking to buy Biogas/CNG buses for a couple of months now. Refuelling would be done in the depots as it is for Diesel today, so you wouldn't need public infrastructure.

It is about of an odd one. We normally follow the UK for buses and they have mostly gone Hybrid-Diesel and even full EV for single deckers. I think the Biogas/CNG appeals as we have a lot available locally from the farming industry, so it can help with our emissions from agriculture issues.

uck51js9zml2yt · 09-10-2018 4:56pm

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Gas propelled???? what the hell is that?

VRT 1% is not on imports as well? will it push up the price of new?

Apart from that they are a useless shower

Its a car that farts...sorry couldn't resist... I'll get my coat.

ELM327 · 09-10-2018 4:59pm

Perla Brief Rash wrote: »

Its a car that farts...sorry couldn't resist... I'll get my coat.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wartburg_353

The Wartburg 353 was commonly nicknamed "Trustworthy Hans" or "Farty Hans" by owners due to its durability and copious exhaust emissions

Shefwedfan · 09-10-2018 5:17pm

According to website you can take any petrol/diesel car and convert....

But this will not help with the cost to convert your standard private car? it is only commerical vehicles?

ELM327 · 09-10-2018 5:20pm

Shefwedfan wrote: »

According to website you can take any petrol/diesel car and convert....

But this will not help with the cost to convert your standard private car? it is only commerical vehicles?

Any car can be converted.
Diesel will run on a blend of LPG and Diesel so it's not really viable.
Petrol, especially large engined cars there's a huge payback. Cost is 500-2000 depending on car and spec needed but if you've got a 15mpg V8 it will pay back in around 12-18 months.

(I know as I considered it for my old V8 pickup)

Orebro · 09-10-2018 6:15pm

“The 0% Benefit-in-kind rate for electric vehicles is being extended
for a period of 3 years, with a cap of €50,000 on the Original Market
Value of the vehicle.”

Common sense prevails at last. I’m all in with BEV, but the taxpayer subsidizing the wealthy into 100k luxury cars was utter madness and completely unsustainable.

Zenith74 · 09-10-2018 6:22pm

Orebro wrote: »

Common sense prevails at last. I’m all in with BEV, but the taxpayer subsidizing the wealthy into 100k luxury cars was utter madness and completely unsustainable.

As much as I'd love a Tesla and the 0% BIK might have helped some day, you're right. Shame they haven't based it on the Current Market Value though, feel like if my company buys a secondhand €30k Tesla or new €30k Leaf the treatment should be the same if the goal is to incentivise electric vehicle use.

KCross · 09-10-2018 6:31pm

Orebro wrote: »

“The 0% Benefit-in-kind rate for electric vehicles is being extended
for a period of 3 years, with a cap of €50,000 on the Original Market
Value of the vehicle.”

Common sense prevails at last. I’m all in with BEV, but the taxpayer subsidizing the wealthy into 100k luxury cars was utter madness and completely unsustainable.

Fair play, you did put forward that case quite vociferously after the last budget and took some abuse for same.

While I agree with you, its poor form if the govt has restrospectively pulled that for those that bought since the last budget as they had said it was for 3yrs. Thats just going to create distrust for any future measures they bring in that they could pull the rug out from under you.

It would be fine if they did it from this point forward but they should honour the purchases since the last budget, for the 3yrs.

Orebro · 09-10-2018 6:39pm

KCross wrote: »

Fair play, you did put forward that case quite vociferously after the last budget and took some abuse for same.

While I agree with you, its poor form if the govt has restrospectively pulled that for those that bought since the last budget as they had said it was for 3yrs. Thats just going to create distrust for any future measures they bring in that they could pull the rug out from under you.

It would be fine if they did it from this point forward but they should honour the purchases since the last budget, for the 3yrs.

Totally agree, anything purchased on the back of a previous measure should be honored - is it not going to be?

KCross · 09-10-2018 6:42pm

Orebro wrote: »

Totally agree, anything purchased on the back of a previous measure should be honored - is it not going to be?

The fine detail hasnt been released but I think when he initially announced the scheme he said 1yr and then unofficially said 3yrs but maybe that 3yrs never got into the finance bill so it was a hoodwink!

They had this graphic of the incentives which showed 3yrs
https://www.dccae.gov.ie/documents/Electric%20Vehicle%20Incentive%20Infographic.pdf

We'll need to wait for the fine detail to be sure but I'd be worried if I had bought a company car on the back of it right now as the BIK on a Model S would be significant.

Budget 2019 and EV

Comments