Budget 2019 and EV

maclek

https://www.dccae.gov.ie/en-ie/energy/publications/Documents/21/LEV%20Taskforce%20Phase1%20Progress%20Report.pdf


Section 3.4 on page 12

liamog

Water John wrote: »

The Low Emissions Task Force (LEVT) have proposed that fees be introduced for charging. On the plus side they disagreed with fixed charges.
What's worrying is this piece;
'It claimed it would be reasonable to pitch fees for fast charge points, on a par with fuelling a fossil fuel car for the same journey'!!!

That would put the price at around 40c/kWh comparing a modern diesel and a car with approx 16kWh/100km.

Muahahaha

Anyone know what the VRT position is for importing a used EV from the UK? Is VRT payable or how does it work?

KCross

Muahahaha wrote: »

Anyone know what the VRT position is for importing a used EV from the UK? Is VRT payable or how does it work?

€5k exemption which means any EV under ~€35k is VRT free.
You take the car to the NCT centre within 30 days of bringing it into the country. If its value is <~€35k they will ask you for no money and give you your new reg number and away you go!

KCross

maclek wrote: »

https://www.dccae.gov.ie/en-ie/energy/publications/Documents/21/LEV%20Taskforce%20Phase1%20Progress%20Report.pdf


Section 3.4 on page 12

I found these comments interesting...

"... although significant volumes of EV sales in Ireland are not expected before 2025 when EVs are expected to achieve price parity with fossil fuel powered vehicles."

I dont know how they came to the "adequate" conclusion but at least they recognise it needs development...

"Although the existing capacity of the charging network is considered adequate, development of infrastructure to meet the growing demand is necessary."

kuro68k

Water John wrote: »

The Low Emissions Task Force (LEVT) have proposed that fees be introduced for charging. On the plus side they disagreed with fixed charges.
What's worrying is this piece;
'It claimed it would be reasonable to pitch fees for fast charge points, on a par with fuelling a fossil fuel car for the same journey'!!!

Ecotricity in the UK charges 30p/kWh, which is not dissimilar to fossil fuel prices.

On the one hand it's good for people who mostly charge at home/work. When we want to travel long distances there is a good chance that the rapid charger we want to use will be available, and the cost isn't significant.

On the other hand it's terrible for people who were relying on Ecotricity chargers because they have no other options.

unkel

I'm all in favour of a high rate (at least 59c/kWh - that's the benchmark set by Fastned in NL). Some entrepreneurs will swiftly bring in a commercial network because they can see profitability down the line (once market penetration is higher). Same happened many years ago in NL. So even with only a tiny percentage of cars being EVs over there, there is a good coverage network with several chargers per station

Even small battery cars like Ioniq 28kWh would be perfectly fine in Ireland as long as there is a good network. Charging Ioniq only takes about 15 minutes on a decent charger (as the ones Fastned has and as the ones Ionity are bringing in)

catharsis

Marcusm wrote: »

This is potentially a €6k PER ANNUM grant to EV owners. Given the scale of this when compared to SEAI grants and VRT abatement, i’m Surprised that there hasn’t been more focus on this aspect. Fleet sales are not so significant in Ireland than the UK and while there is a BIK reduction (to 9% of OMV) for zero it ultra low CO2 vehicles, it doesn’t amount to as significant an annual subsidy.

It will certainly be interesting to see if this is a more efficient use of subsidy than direct purchase subsidies for expanding the country’s stock of EVs.

I think the calculation here ignore the realities of the running cost of the cars and the genuine 'benefit' received. upon which the tax should be paid (or forgone in this case).

The real running cost of any (sub50K) EV for 3 years does not come even close to approaching the 90% of market value suggested by revenue as the value of the benefit and hence the value of the subsidy as proposed by your numbers..

Overall over 3 years I would propose the following costs for any typical EV

Insurance 500 per annum = 1500

replacement tyres once over the 3 year lifespan, cost 300?

No replacement oil, fluids, brake pads (due to regen) etc

All servicing included in manufacturers warranty and hence at zero cost.

Annual electricity cost - based upon 15000KM and an average of 15KWH/100KM at night rate (assumed 9 cents per unit)

(15000/100)*15*.09= 202.50 per annum, call it 600 total over 3 years (assuming the user is paying for charging at all and not using public chargers)
Road tax of under 200 per year, call it 600 again

Total running costs excluding depreciation of this car over a 3 year period are therefore around 3000.

Assuming a 40K car for ease of calculations, the government assessment that the benefit received is 90% of the car value comes to 36K - given that 3K of that 'benefit' was the running costs set out above, the required depreciation of a new EV in the first 3 years of ownership would need to be 33K or over 80% for the governments numbers (and hence any assertion as to the value of the subsidy) to actually be true.

Patently the 30% figure is utter rubbish and so any statement valuing the benefit being realised by people availing of the BIK exemption is based upon a profoundly invalid set of calculations.

Stoner

I'm concerned about the 50K cap on the type S

I'm closing in on a deal on one at the moment a 171 type S 100D

I was thinking of getting it in January.

Does this mean there would be BIK involved now as it's over 50K? It's a non runner if it is

I'd have to buy it to avoid BIK of something like 16 K PA which is not happening.

As always the 50K limit will be against a new or most expensive equivalent model. Even if it's 2 or 10 years old.

Edit:

Just saw it's BIK on the amount over 50K

ewj1978

Water John wrote: »

The Low Emissions Task Force (LEVT) have proposed that fees be introduced for charging. On the plus side they disagreed with fixed charges.
What's worrying is this piece;
'It claimed it would be reasonable to pitch fees for fast charge points, on a par with fuelling a fossil fuel car for the same journey'!!!

Grand. 40-50c a kw. It'll free up fast chargers for what their intended use was, i.e: people travelling long distances needing a charge.

liamog

ewj1978 wrote: »

Grand. 40-50c a kw. It'll free up fast chargers for what their intended use was, i.e: people travelling long distances needing a charge.

I reckon between 30 and 35c/kWh is probably the correct balance to make sure they are used enough to be viable whilst being costly enough to make sure home charging is worth the cost of the install.

Marcusm

catharsis wrote: »

I think the calculation here ignore the realities of the running cost of the cars and the genuine 'benefit' received. upon which the tax should be paid (or forgone in this case).

The real running cost of any (sub50K) EV for 3 years does not come even close to approaching the 90% of market value suggested by revenue as the value of the benefit and hence the value of the subsidy as proposed by your numbers..

Overall over 3 years I would propose the following costs for any typical EV

Insurance 500 per annum = 1500

replacement tyres once over the 3 year lifespan, cost 300?

No replacement oil, fluids, brake pads (due to regen) etc

All servicing included in manufacturers warranty and hence at zero cost.

Annual electricity cost - based upon 15000KM and an average of 15KWH/100KM at night rate (assumed 9 cents per unit)

(15000/100)*15*.09= 202.50 per annum, call it 600 total over 3 years (assuming the user is paying for charging at all and not using public chargers)
Road tax of under 200 per year, call it 600 again

Total running costs excluding depreciation of this car over a 3 year period are therefore around 3000.

Assuming a 40K car for ease of calculations, the government assessment that the benefit received is 90% of the car value comes to 36K - given that 3K of that 'benefit' was the running costs set out above, the required depreciation of a new EV in the first 3 years of ownership would need to be 33K or over 80% for the governments numbers (and hence any assertion as to the value of the subsidy) to actually be true.

Patently the 30% figure is utter rubbish and so any statement valuing the benefit being realised by people availing of the BIK exemption is based upon a profoundly invalid set of calculations.

Uh no; you can challenge the appropriateness of a 30% BIK charge against usual running costs if you want but the tax foregone is the subsidy which the gov’t is giving and that’s up to €6k per annum based on a higher rate payer and 50 k car.

Marcusm

Stoner wrote: »

I'm concerned about the 50K cap on the type S

I'm closing in on a deal on one at the moment a 171 type S 100D

I was thinking of getting it in January.

Does this mean there would be BIK involved now as it's over 50K? It's a non runner if it is

I'd have to buy it to avoid BIK of something like 16 K PA which is not happening.

As always the 50K limit will be against a new or most expensive equivalent model. Even if it's 2 or 10 years old.

Edit:

Just saw it's BIK on the amount over 50K

Be careful
Also that the BIK is not on the cost of the car but on the Irish “original market value” which, ceteris paribus, is the list price less a small assumed discount.

Stoner

Marcusm wrote:

Be careful Also that the BIK is not on the cost of the car but on the Irish “original market value†which, ceteris paribus, is the list price less a small assumed discount.

Yes I was caught on that in 2000 with my first company ,nearly new 30 k and not 41 k as listed.

Gave up the company car in 2010 as it was just a case of having enough capital to buy your own car.

It's set up to be much of a muchness for the company and the individual but the government collects regardless, they have it we'll set up


The uneconomical element is how free people are with company car repairs, all scrapes and dings etc are all fixed and all back to the original garage.

People shop around more when it's their money

ELM327

unkel wrote: »

I'm all in favour of a high rate (at least 59c/kWh - that's the benchmark set by Fastned in NL). Some entrepreneurs will swiftly bring in a commercial network because they can see profitability down the line (once market penetration is higher). Same happened many years ago in NL. So even with only a tiny percentage of cars being EVs over there, there is a good coverage network with several chargers per station

Even small battery cars like Ioniq 28kWh would be perfectly fine in Ireland as long as there is a good network. Charging Ioniq only takes about 15 minutes on a decent charger (as the ones Fastned has and as the ones Ionity are bringing in)

Same.
Fast chargers now are probably (completely anecdotal guess) used 70/30 by people as they are free, vs for their intended use (to allow you continue a journey).


When I had my L24 I would have to fast charge a minimum of 2-3 times a week but my mileage is not typical. With the Ioniq I rarely have to fast charge as all regular trips are covered by home charging/work charging. And I'd happily pay €5-€10 per fast charge if I knew the network was reliable and not abused by local hoggers determined to get their free €1.50

McGiver

ELM327 wrote: »

Same.
Fast chargers now are probably (completely anecdotal guess) used 70/30 by people as they are free, vs for their intended use (to allow you continue a journey).


When I had my L24 I would have to fast charge a minimum of 2-3 times a week but my mileage is not typical. With the Ioniq I rarely have to fast charge as all regular trips are covered by home charging/work charging. And I'd happily pay €5-€10 per fast charge if I knew the network was reliable and not abused by local hoggers determined to get their free €1.50

For sure. Can the IEVOA pressure the government to do so? Any member here?

Orebro

McGiver wrote: »

For sure. Can the IEVOA pressure the government to do so? Any member here?

Don't mention the war.

McGiver

Orebro wrote: »

Don't mention the war.

I honestly think EV owners should pressure the government to heavily tax diesel with the prospect of banning it/phasing it out in medium term. Folks, who don't want to/are not able to switch to EV could switch to petrol or LPG. These are better alternatives than shaking, noisy, polluting machine spreading carcinogenic nano-particles everywhere. I don't even think about CO2, this particular aspect should be sufficient to ban them. It's a national health issue and it costs the government a lot in healthcare costs. And the people as well, they think they saved few Euro on the fuel, but poisoned themselves and everyone around.

ELM327

McGiver wrote: »

For sure. Can the IEVOA pressure the government to do so? Any member here?

Plenty of members, plenty of dissenters.
Think of people's front of judea vs judean people's front.
Both groups hate Egyptians ecars but hate each other more.

ELM327

McGiver wrote: »

I honestly think EV owners should pressure the government to heavily tax diesel with the prospect of banning it/phasing it out in medium term. Folks, who don't want to/are not able to switch to EV could switch to petrol or LPG. These are better alternatives than shaking, noisy, polluting machine spreading carcinogenic nano-particles everywhere. I don't even think about CO2, this particular aspect should be sufficient to ban them. It's a national health issue and it costs the government a lot in healthcare costs. And the people as well, they think they saved few Euro on the fuel, but poisoned themselves and everyone around.

I share your sentiment but, diesel, petrol, LPG are three sides of the same fossil fuel coin.


All should be phased out. Short distance and private cars should be EV, long distance commuters and LCV could be a PHEV with perhaps a 200km range battery and a hydrogen fuel cell for range extending (long term). Of course the hydrogen should only be produced using renewable energy or it too is like fossil fuel and is pointless.

McGiver

ELM327 wrote: »

I share your sentiment but, diesel, petrol, LPG are three sides of the same fossil fuel coin.


All should be phased out. Short distance and private cars should be EV, long distance commuters and LCV could be a PHEV with perhaps a 200km range battery and a hydrogen fuel cell for range extending (long term). Of course the hydrogen should only be produced using renewable energy or it too is like fossil fuel and is pointless.

Yes, I fully agree. But realistically, phasing out all three is not feasible. You need to give people who aren't able to buy an EV a fallback option. EV and PHEV aren't cheap. How many people in Ireland can afford them?

ELM327

McGiver wrote: »

Yes, I fully agree. But realistically, phasing out all three is not feasible. You need to give people who aren't able to buy an EV a fallback option. EV and PHEV aren't cheap. How many people in Ireland can afford them?

This is an oft used argument, which is not true.
You can buy an EV for 7-8k
With the fuel savings there's not many people that currently run a car that could not afford it.

Shefwedfan

McGiver wrote: »

I honestly think EV owners should pressure the government to heavily tax diesel with the prospect of banning it/phasing it out in medium term. Folks, who don't want to/are not able to switch to EV could switch to petrol or LPG. These are better alternatives than shaking, noisy, polluting machine spreading carcinogenic nano-particles everywhere. I don't even think about CO2, this particular aspect should be sufficient to ban them. It's a national health issue and it costs the government a lot in healthcare costs. And the people as well, they think they saved few Euro on the fuel, but poisoned themselves and everyone around.

EV owners are what 1% of the current market? over 70% of that is diesel....

Which do you think the government will listen to?



Also post on the motors forum about banning diesel and the affects to people health. Watch the back lash. This is from your standard Irish driver. These will include people telling you that because they have adblue engine that it is cleaner than anything else in the World, including electric.....I am not making this up either....if you do a search you will find some of the threads.....comments including "Diesel till I die" you will also get, this is what you are dealing with

kuro68k

I also like the idea of a charge for lingering long after your charge has ended. Give 10 minutes grace.

Unfortunately some EVs don't have a remote monitoring app, but generally when charging to charge comes in they limit the charge session to 45 minutes regardless. Ideally there should be a cut-off once the charge rate drops below 20kW too.

McGiver

ELM327 wrote: »

This is an oft used argument, which is not true.
You can buy an EV for 7-8k
With the fuel savings there's not many people that currently run a car that could not afford it.

Show me one. That drives at least 100km on charge. I don't tell me that 7 year old Leaf with 60% remaining capacity left is such choice. How about the resell value of such car? No home charging (if you live in terraced or apartment) etc etc.

Generally, the gov needs to go smart about it, phasing out both petrol & diesel is not going to work in Ireland. Irish people are conservative with regards to technology overall.

McGiver

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Also post on the motors forum about banning diesel and the affects to people health. Watch the back lash. This is from your standard Irish driver. These will include people telling you that because they have adblue engine that it is cleaner than anything else in the World, including electric.....I am not making this up either....if you do a search you will find some of the threads.....comments including "Diesel till I die" you will also get, this is what you are dealing with

Shocking if true. But let's not be defeatist. The gov has EU targets, the gov did set its own goals. And failing in both, they will have to action, regardless of what 95% of the diesel people think.

ELM327

McGiver wrote: »

Show me one. That drives at least 100km on charge. I don't tell me that 7 year old Leaf with 60% remaining capacity left is such choice. How about the resell value of such car? No home charging (if you live in terraced or apartment) etc etc.

Generally, the gov needs to go smart about it, phasing out both petrol & diesel is not going to work in Ireland. Irish people are conservative with regards to technology overall.

Two words. Renault Zoe. https://www.donedeal.ie/cars-for-sale/2014-battery-lease-renault-zoe/19353556
PS: My home charger was installed last month in my Apartment

McGiver

ELM327 wrote: »

Plenty of members, plenty of dissenters.
Think of people's front of judea vs judean people's front.
Both groups hate Egyptians ecars but hate each other more.

That serves no good to the community overall, sadly. I hear there is an alternative EV association at least on Facebook, is that correct?

McGiver

ELM327 wrote: »

Two words. Renault Zoe. https://www.donedeal.ie/cars-for-sale/2014-battery-lease-renault-zoe/19353556
PS: My home charger was installed last month in my Apartment

I know, I know - 70 quid/month for battery lease.

And with regards to chargers - what if you're renting? And, as you know getting this done, is not exactly a simple process, do you seriously think people will be arsed to go through this pain? And how about the cost?

EDIT: Zoe battery lease is €79/month if you rent for 36 months and do only <12500km/year. It can easily be €100/month as well.

ELM327

McGiver wrote: »

That serves no good to the community overall, sadly. I hear there is an alternative EV association at least on Facebook, is that correct?

If there is, it's news to me.

McGiver wrote: »

I know, I know - 70 quid/month for battery lease.

And with regards to chargers - what if you're renting? And, as you know getting this done, is not exactly a simple process, do you seriously think people will be arsed to go through this pain? And how about the cost?

EDIT: Zoe battery lease is €79/month if you rent for 36 months and do only <12500km/year. It can easily be €100/month as well.

Well you excluded leafs already.
There were no other EVs sold before 2014-15 so if you exclude leafs and reject Zoes then there's no other car there.

It was not a painful process.
If renting you can take the unit with you when you move. It's only the initial wiring cost that's the problem.
A small object, but still worth it as it's cheaper than a fossil car.