Budget 2019 and EV

ELM327

Not expecting much this year, but these are the main notables as fair as reducing our emissions:


He will be introducing a new accelerated capital allowances scheme for gas-propelled vehicles and refuelling equipment.
This is designed to encourage the uptake of gas-propelled commercial vehicles as an economic and environmentally friendly alternative to diesel


On carbon tax:
“It is my intention to put in place a long-term trajectory for carbon tax increases out to 2030 in line with the recommendations of the Climate Change Advisory Council and the special Oireachtas Committee which are examining climate changes.”


Ireland will no longer purchase diesel only busses after July of next year. In line with several other EU states, there will be a 1 per cent surcharge for diesel vehicles across all VRT bands.The minister is extending VRT relief for hybrid vehicles until 2019


Have to say I don't care for the gas related thing as it's still a fossil fuel at the end of the day.
(Quotes lifted from https://liveblog.irishtimes.com/4d29d48a9f/Live%3A-Budget-2019/)

mccannf

From http://www.budget.gov.ie/Budgets/2019/Documents/2.%20Budget%202019%20Tax%20Policy%20Changes.pdf

The 0% Benefit-in-kind rate for electric vehicles is being extended
for a period of 3 years, with a cap of €50,000 on the Original Market
Value of the vehicle.

KCross

mccannf wrote: »

The 0% Benefit-in-kind rate for electric vehicles is being extended for a period of 3 years, with a cap of €50,000 on the Original Market Value of the vehicle.

Thats an interesting one. So what happens if you have bought a Model S on the back of last years budget (which people have)?

ELM327

KCross wrote: »

Thats an interesting one. So what happens if you have bought a Model S on the back of last years budget (which people have)?

Ouchies. That's not good.
I assume they will grandfather in the existing cars.
I'd imagine the vast majority of EV purchased under the BIK scheme were Teslas - given how hard Tesla Ireland lobbied for this change last year.

Shefwedfan

Gas propelled???? what the hell is that?

VRT 1% is not on imports as well? will it push up the price of new?

Apart from that they are a useless shower

KCross

ELM327 wrote: »

A 1% VRT surcharge is being brought in for diesel engine passenger vehicles registering in the State from 1 January 2019.

How do you interpret that figure. The word surcharge is confusing it a bit.

Is it a 1% surcharge of the RRP? Or is it just that a car that was paying, say, 20% VRT is now paying 21%?

Shefwedfan

mccannf wrote: »

From http://www.budget.gov.ie/Budgets/2019/Documents/2.%20Budget%202019%20Tax%20Policy%20Changes.pdf

eGolf will be happy with that proposal....Majority of cars would have been Tesla so that is a kick in the teeth


Maybe might push them to release the Model 3 earlier but I doubt it

ELM327

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Gas propelled???? what the hell is that?

VRT 1% is not on imports as well? will it push up the price of new?

Apart from that they are a useless shower

Gas propelled is LPG. I knew from my prior correspondence that this was likely to come in (i had provided a written response to the committee but it was clearly ignored).


1% VRT is across the board in my reading.

KCross wrote: »

How do you interpret that figure. The word surcharge is confusing it a bit.

Is it a 1% surcharge of the RRP? Or is it just that a car that was paying, say, 20% VRT is now paying 21%?

I would imagine (because people working in politics are generally not mathematics savvy) that they meant 1 percentage point as opposed to 1%.


So if they were paying 20% they will now pay 21%, not (20*1.01)%

KCross

I'd see this as the potential end to hybrid and PHEV subsidies...

Extension of VRT relief for hybrid and plug-in hybrid vehicles
The VRT relief available for conventional hybrids and plug-in electric hybrids is being extended for a period of one year, until end 2019.

No mention of the grant or BEV's. He specifically just mentioned VRT relief for hybrid and PHEV.

ELM327

It's the same wording as other years, but I reckon this year they emphasised it (by leaving out BEV/grants) as the UK look to be ending their grants for PHEV

zilog_jones

ELM327 wrote: »

Gas propelled is LPG.

Are you sure? All the talk about commercial vehicles this year has been with CNG.

ELM327

zilog_jones wrote: »

Are you sure? All the talk about commercial vehicles this year has been with CNG.

The report from the budgetary oversight committee actually mentions both so it could actually be both.
However with practically 0 refuelling stations for CNG, LPG is likely to be more practical.

n97 mini

zilog_jones wrote: »

Are you sure? All the talk about commercial vehicles this year has been with CNG.

I would think it's CNG and LPG, but you're right, the "environmentally friendly" gas is considered CNG.

ELM327

ELM327 wrote: »

The report from the budgetary oversight committee actually mentions both so it could actually be both.
However with practically 0 refuelling stations for CNG, LPG is likely to be more practical.

n97 mini wrote: »

I would think it's CNG and LPG, but you're right, the "environmentally friendly" gas is considered CNG.

As I say above, i think it's both, as described by the Budgetary Oversight Committee report.

Shefwedfan

Who sells LPG cars these days anyway?

I know one fueling station but that would actually suit me as not massively far away.....

For a PHEV buyer you are better buying up now as in 12 months it will probably be gone

Marcusm

ELM327 wrote: »

Ouchies. That's not good.
I assume they will grandfather in the existing cars.
I'd imagine the vast majority of EV purchased under the BIK scheme were Teslas - given how hard Tesla Ireland lobbied for this change last year.

We'll have to wait and see the draft clauses next week. Given that any existing purchase was on the back of a 1 year BIK exemption, no-one can call foul at the imposition of the OMV limit, i.e. they cannot assert that they were fooled into buying it or that there is a retrospective imposition.

Marcusm

ELM327 wrote: »

Gas propelled is LPG. I knew from my prior correspondence that this was likely to come in (i had provided a written response to the committee but it was clearly ignored).


1% VRT is across the board in my reading.






I would imagine (because people working in politics are generally not mathematics savvy) that they meant 1 percentage point as opposed to 1%.


So if they were paying 20% they will now pay 21%, not (20*1.01)%

I would say that it will include CNG or any form of liquefied gas. Also, agree with you ont he likely imposition of VRT; it will apply to all registrations. (new or import could not be distinguished between) and will add 1% to the pertinent VRT rate for the particular car rather than increase the computed VRT by 1%.

ELM327

Marcusm wrote: »

We'll have to wait and see the draft clauses next week. Given that any existing purchase was on the back of a 1 year BIK exemption, no-one can call foul at the imposition of the OMV limit, i.e. they cannot assert that they were fooled into buying it or that there is a retrospective imposition.

Considering the language used by the minister at the time was that the scheme was 1 year with the intention that it would be extended 3-5, I would disagree.

Marcusm

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Who sells LPG cars these days anyway?

I know one fueling station but that would actually suit me as not massively far away.....

For a PHEV buyer you are better buying up now as in 12 months it will probably be gone

It's more of an issue for commercial vehicles -buses and trucks. For these, I would expect a lot of the refuelling to be depot based, especially in urban areas where the NOx issues are most significant. There was a specific commitment not to buy diesel buses from (I think) mid next year for anything subject to NTA.

Marcusm

ELM327 wrote: »

Considering the language used by the minister at the time was that the scheme was 1 year with the intention that it would be extended 3-5, I would disagree.

I can see why you'd argue that but it was not a commitment and the 0% BIK could simply have been discontinued. Sympathy for Tesla Model S buyers at DoF will be rarer than unicorn's tears.

Shefwedfan

Marcusm wrote: »

It's more of an issue for commercial vehicles -buses and trucks. For these, I would expect a lot of the refuelling to be depot based, especially in urban areas where the NOx issues are most significant. There was a specific commitment not to buy diesel buses from (I think) mid next year for anything subject to NTA.

They released a tender earlier this year, It seemed to be some sort of a review of buses and renewable fuels....I guess this is the outcome.....

bk

Yes, I'd say the Biogas/CNG thing is mostly aimed at the likes of Dublin Bus, BE, etc.

There have been rumours of them looking to buy Biogas/CNG buses for a couple of months now. Refuelling would be done in the depots as it is for Diesel today, so you wouldn't need public infrastructure.

It is about of an odd one. We normally follow the UK for buses and they have mostly gone Hybrid-Diesel and even full EV for single deckers. I think the Biogas/CNG appeals as we have a lot available locally from the farming industry, so it can help with our emissions from agriculture issues.

uck51js9zml2yt

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Gas propelled???? what the hell is that?

VRT 1% is not on imports as well? will it push up the price of new?

Apart from that they are a useless shower

Its a car that farts...sorry couldn't resist... I'll get my coat.

ELM327

Perla Brief Rash wrote: »

Its a car that farts...sorry couldn't resist... I'll get my coat.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wartburg_353

The Wartburg 353 was commonly nicknamed "Trustworthy Hans" or "Farty Hans" by owners due to its durability and copious exhaust emissions

Shefwedfan

According to website you can take any petrol/diesel car and convert....

But this will not help with the cost to convert your standard private car? it is only commerical vehicles?

ELM327

Shefwedfan wrote: »

According to website you can take any petrol/diesel car and convert....

But this will not help with the cost to convert your standard private car? it is only commerical vehicles?

Any car can be converted.
Diesel will run on a blend of LPG and Diesel so it's not really viable.
Petrol, especially large engined cars there's a huge payback. Cost is 500-2000 depending on car and spec needed but if you've got a 15mpg V8 it will pay back in around 12-18 months.


(I know as I considered it for my old V8 pickup)

Orebro

“The 0% Benefit-in-kind rate for electric vehicles is being extended
for a period of 3 years, with a cap of €50,000 on the Original Market
Value of the vehicle.”

Common sense prevails at last. I’m all in with BEV, but the taxpayer subsidizing the wealthy into 100k luxury cars was utter madness and completely unsustainable.

Zenith74

Orebro wrote: »

Common sense prevails at last. I’m all in with BEV, but the taxpayer subsidizing the wealthy into 100k luxury cars was utter madness and completely unsustainable.

As much as I'd love a Tesla and the 0% BIK might have helped some day, you're right. Shame they haven't based it on the Current Market Value though, feel like if my company buys a secondhand €30k Tesla or new €30k Leaf the treatment should be the same if the goal is to incentivise electric vehicle use.

KCross

Orebro wrote: »

“The 0% Benefit-in-kind rate for electric vehicles is being extended
for a period of 3 years, with a cap of €50,000 on the Original Market
Value of the vehicle.”

Common sense prevails at last. I’m all in with BEV, but the taxpayer subsidizing the wealthy into 100k luxury cars was utter madness and completely unsustainable.

Fair play, you did put forward that case quite vociferously after the last budget and took some abuse for same.

While I agree with you, its poor form if the govt has restrospectively pulled that for those that bought since the last budget as they had said it was for 3yrs. Thats just going to create distrust for any future measures they bring in that they could pull the rug out from under you.

It would be fine if they did it from this point forward but they should honour the purchases since the last budget, for the 3yrs.

Orebro

KCross wrote: »

Fair play, you did put forward that case quite vociferously after the last budget and took some abuse for same.

While I agree with you, its poor form if the govt has restrospectively pulled that for those that bought since the last budget as they had said it was for 3yrs. Thats just going to create distrust for any future measures they bring in that they could pull the rug out from under you.

It would be fine if they did it from this point forward but they should honour the purchases since the last budget, for the 3yrs.

Totally agree, anything purchased on the back of a previous measure should be honored - is it not going to be?

KCross

Orebro wrote: »

Totally agree, anything purchased on the back of a previous measure should be honored - is it not going to be?

The fine detail hasnt been released but I think when he initially announced the scheme he said 1yr and then unofficially said 3yrs but maybe that 3yrs never got into the finance bill so it was a hoodwink!

They had this graphic of the incentives which showed 3yrs
https://www.dccae.gov.ie/documents/Electric%20Vehicle%20Incentive%20Infographic.pdf

We'll need to wait for the fine detail to be sure but I'd be worried if I had bought a company car on the back of it right now as the BIK on a Model S would be significant.

Zenith74

Orebro wrote: »

Totally agree, anything purchased on the back of a previous measure should be honored - is it not going to be?

The wording was "A 0% benefit-in-kind (BIK) rate is being introduced for electric
vehicles for a period of 1 year" last year, pretty clear I think. The Minister hinted that this would be extended during a couple of speeches, but lets be honest the current government is hardly "rock solid", so buying a €100k asset off the back of something like that would not be wise.

slave1

Orebro wrote: »

“The 0% Benefit-in-kind rate for electric vehicles is being extended
for a period of 3 years, with a cap of €50,000 on the Original Market
Value of the vehicle.”

Common sense prevails at last. I’m all in with BEV, but the taxpayer subsidizing the wealthy into 100k luxury cars was utter madness and completely unsustainable.

Not really, if someone is in a position to earn that amount then good luck to them, they are talented, hard working and well educated most likely to get that far so deserve their package.
One less ICE on the road is the aim, I personally could not care less if it's a senior executive or not.

KCross

Zenith74 wrote: »

The wording was "A 0% benefit-in-kind (BIK) rate is being introduced for electric
vehicles for a period of 1 year" last year, pretty clear I think. The Minister hinted that this would be extended during a couple of speeches, but lets be honest the current government is hardly "rock solid", so buying a €100k asset off the back of something like that would not be wise.

It was more than a hint, he stated it clearly enough after the budget and the link I posted above is a government "flyer" showing 3yrs so you could understand how people would feel hoodwinked. Who reads the finance bill to check these things?!

Ultimately all that matters is what is in the finance bill but if he wasnt willing to stand over it for the 3yrs he shouldnt have bothered in the first place because no one buys a car for 1yr. Its going to leave a bad taste in a few mouths and doesnt help his cause at all from a credibility perspective.

Technically you are right of course, but thats not the point.

Shefwedfan

That going to put a huge dent in Audi and Jaguar sales for the new BEV SUV's.....they should have got them out quicker :-)

Orebro

slave1 wrote: »

Not really, if someone is in a position to earn that amount then good luck to them, they are talented, hard working and well educated most likely to get that far so deserve their package.
One less ICE on the road is the aim, I personally could not care less if it's a senior executive or not.

Sorry, what? I’m talented, hard working and well educated, like everyone on here, and I’m not looking for some package that I think I deserve. And I certainly don’t want a cent of my tax money going to help an already wealthy person out of their Range Rover and into a Model X. I’m delighted the Minister agrees with that.

catharsis

Orebro wrote: »

Sorry, what? I’m talented, hard working and well educated, like everyone on here, and I’m not looking for some package that I think I deserve. And I certainly don’t want a cent of my tax money going to help an already wealthy person out of their Range Rover and into a Model X. I’m delighted the Minister agrees with that.

I'd be delighted to see an incentive to get a wealthy person out of their range rover and into a model X - what sane person wouldn't? What was unfair is that the incentive for wealthy people was regressive - i.e the more the car cost the bigger the incentive.....

On the other hand do you want these wealthy people to keep buying horribly inefficient Range Rovers (which they can afford to keep filling with precious fossil juice)?

Lets face it no one buys a Tesla X because of the low running costs.... I think they should have capped the available benefit not abolished it entirely as soon as the market price exceeds 50K - for example I believe that has just killed a large proportion of prospective Model 3 sales!

(Note that the above is spoken from a rational analysis, not from the perspective of someone with a pre-reservation for an Audi e-Tron which I am now about to cancel !!)

Orebro

I give up! Anyway the war is won so I can rest easy.

elperello

The switch over from ICE powered cars is too big a project to be messing about with on an annual budget cycle.
All this uncertainty is bad for the motor trade, the consumer and the environment.
What's needed is a clearly laid out plan to achieve change over the next 5-10 years.

Bionicleg

Well that’s a kick in the nuts for me, I wouldn’t have bought a 2nd hand model s in April if I had known there was going to be a cap on bik. And on the omv too.

I think it’s really bad form if this change rolls back to companies buying this year. Fair enough going forward, everyone knows where they stand but imagine if they changed their minds in 2009 a year after they introduced the new co2 tax rates for diesels! There would be war.

I don’t accept other opinions here that their tax is subsidizing my tesla, I got no seai grant or vrt subsidy as I wasn’t the 1st owner. Like every other ev driver I am also reducing the country’s carbon tax too. I also didn’t have a company car, so the gov didn’t loose any income tax when I changed to a ev company car.

Marcusm

Orebro wrote: »

I give up! Anyway the war is won so I can rest easy.

Don’t rest; the extension by three years is likely the limit of the extension. I.e. in 4 years these cars will suffer full BIK.

cros13

Bionicleg wrote: »

Well that’s a kick in the nuts for me, I wouldn’t have bought a 2nd hand model s in April if I had known there was going to be a cap on bik. And on the omv too.

I agree. This OMV cap is a disastrous move. Every Tesla and other high end EV on the road is doing more for EV adoption than if the same amount of money was handed to SEAI for advertising.
Not to mention the reputational damage suffered by all these shifts to and fro with the incentives.

All technology shifts start at the high end of the market. And the cars at those price points also tend to do higher mileage, run with lower efficiency combustion engines and stay on the road as part of the national fleet longer.
It's also buyers with more disposable income that make the leap as early adopters.

It's more important to get one Model S doing 50k/annum on the road than three Leafs doing 20k/annum each. Look at Norway and other strong EV markets, it was expensive EVs at the top of the market that led the charge.

That applies to an even larger extent for HGVs. There are no incentives for electric HGVs in Ireland unlike other markets and plenty of additional commercial models hitting the market in the next 18-24 months.

Bionicleg

And another thing, Tesla is the only ev car that meets the daily needs of my company and me. It’s not my fault it’s over 50k. Taxing me an additional 15k a year is not on and I’ll be back in a less hassle to refuel petrol and claiming expenses again if this goes ahead.

Orebro

cros13 wrote: »

I agree. This OMV cap is a disastrous move. Every Tesla and other high end EV on the road is doing more for EV adoption than if the same amount of money was handed to SEAI for advertising.
Not to mention the reputational damage suffered by all these shifts to and fro with the incentives.

All technology shifts start at the high end of the market. And the cars at those price points also tend to do higher mileage, run with lower efficiency combustion engines and stay on the road as part of the national fleet longer.
It's also buyers with more disposable income that make the leap as early adopters.

It's more important to get one Model S doing 50k/annum on the road than three Leafs doing 20k/annum each. Look at Norway and other strong EV markets, it was expensive EVs at the top of the market that led the charge.

That applies to an even larger extent for HGVs. There are no incentives for electric HGVs in Ireland unlike other markets and plenty of additional commercial models hitting the market in the next 18-24 months.

Can’t agree with that. It’s the likes of people buying Leafs and charging them in the workplace and in public, and talking to colleagues and people all the time about them is the winner. A Model S is anonymous in that most have no idea what it is or if it’s electric when they see one. A Leaf or an i3 is different and people are curious about them. Also when people talk to me about the Leaf one of the first questions is how much they are. They would walk away very quickly if the response was 80k like it would be for a Tesla! Tesla’s have done very little in this country to push things along.

Would I like a Tesla? Of course! But I’ll earn it and don’t expect the family next door with the 10 year old 7 seater they’re struggling to keep going to subsidize it for me with their tax money.

zep

Orebro wrote: »

cros13 wrote: »

I agree. This OMV cap is a disastrous move. Every Tesla and other high end EV on the road is doing more for EV adoption than if the same amount of money was handed to SEAI for advertising.
Not to mention the reputational damage suffered by all these shifts to and fro with the incentives.

All technology shifts start at the high end of the market. And the cars at those price points also tend to do higher mileage, run with lower efficiency combustion engines and stay on the road as part of the national fleet longer.
It's also buyers with more disposable income that make the leap as early adopters.

It's more important to get one Model S doing 50k/annum on the road than three Leafs doing 20k/annum each. Look at Norway and other strong EV markets, it was expensive EVs at the top of the market that led the charge.

That applies to an even larger extent for HGVs. There are no incentives for electric HGVs in Ireland unlike other markets and plenty of additional commercial models hitting the market in the next 18-24 months.

Can’t agree with that. It’s the likes of people buying Leafs and charging them in the workplace and in public, and talking to colleagues and people all the time about them is the winner. A Model S is anonymous in that most have no idea what it is or if it’s electric when they see one. A Leaf or an i3 is different and people are curious about them. Also when people talk to me about the Leaf one of the first questions is how much they are. They would walk away very quickly if the response was 80k like it would be for a Tesla! Tesla’s have done very little in this country to push things along.

Would I like a Tesla? Of course! But I’ll earn it and don’t expect the family next door with the 10 year old 7 seater they’re struggling to keep going to subsidize it for me with their tax money.

I personally think your talking pure ****! No one is subsidising tax money for any Model S/X owners, and I'm sure they have all earned their right to drive one if they choose to do so. I'm also sure they already pay significant tax in the first place to be able afford their cars. And Tesla are much more conversation pieces than Leaf's and i3's, I've witnessed this first hand at my place of work, several electric cars plugged in charging and everyone wants to stop look and talk about the Tesla's. Don't think a Leaf or i3 inspires people to want to move into the EV space.

Bionicleg

Orebro wrote: »

Can’t agree with that. It’s the likes of people buying Leafs and charging them in the workplace and in public, and talking to colleagues and people all the time about them is the winner. A Model S is anonymous in that most have no idea what it is or if it’s electric when they see one. A Leaf or an i3 is different and people are curious about them. Also when people talk to me about the Leaf one of the first questions is how much they are. They would walk away very quickly if the response was 80k like it would be for a Tesla! Tesla’s have done very little in this country to push things along.

Would I like a Tesla? Of course! But I’ll earn it and don’t expect the family next door with the 10 year old 7 seater they’re struggling to keep going to subsidize it for me with their tax money.

First up, Tesla’s get the same 5k seai that leafs etc get and same vrt too so you are not subsidizing any Tesla owners more than any other ev owner.

Secondly, I am always being asked the same 2 questions by strangers, how far does it go and how long to charge.

It’s certainly not anonymous either, I thought it would be before I got it but it seems to attract more finger pointing from passers by than a Ferrari. This is probably because it’s the only viable alternative to ice for many drivers.

Finally new they are over 100k, not 80k and that does put off lots of buyers but there are also lots of people buying 100k diesels than have switched to ev.

Casati

If the minister didn’t take action on BIK the lost revenue from the 1% would be more than the entire EV budget for year, 15k p.a tax break was extremely generous (as is the 7.5k tax break available on ev’s up to 50k).

Now let’s see, but my guess is half of the Tesla’s sold this year will hit the market next year with company owners replacing them with exec diesels

ELM327

Bionicleg wrote: »

First up, Tesla’s get the same 5k seai that leafs etc get and same vrt too so you are not subsidizing any Tesla owners more than any other ev owner.

Secondly, I am always being asked the same 2 questions by strangers, how far does it go and how long to charge.

It’s certainly not anonymous either, I thought it would be before I got it but it seems to attract more finger pointing from passers by than a Ferrari. This is probably because it’s the only viable alternative to ice for many drivers.

Finally new they are over 100k, not 80k and that does put off lots of buyers but there are also lots of people buying 100k diesels than have switched to ev.

Most Teslas bought here, and bought for the grant, are imported and thus get no grant from the SEAI. They are purchased between €40k and €65k, hence VRT is payable - generally between 2 and 5k VRT after the discount.

kuro68k

Bionicleg wrote: »

Secondly, I am always being asked the same 2 questions by strangers, how far does it go and how long to charge.

The third one is usually "aren't you worried about all those batteries catching fire?", to which I usually reply "aren't you worried about driving around with a tank full of flammable liquid in a car powered by explosions?"

Bionicleg

Zep, You said what I was really thinking. Fair play.

Orebro

zep wrote: »

I personally think your talking pure ****! No one is subsidising tax money for any Model S/X owners, and I'm sure they have all earned their right to drive one if they choose to do so. I'm also sure they already pay significant tax in the first place to be able afford their cars. And Tesla are much more conversation pieces than Leaf's and i3's, I've witnessed this first hand at my place of work, several electric cars plugged in charging and everyone wants to stop look and talk about the Tesla's. Don't think a Leaf or i3 inspires people to want to move into the EV space.

0% BIK is subsidizing.