Laws Question? Ask here!

frosty123 · 28-10-2019 6:08pm

RE: The final peno for SA v Wales..On ITV they said it was because of side entry, on RTE they said it was because of a collapsed maul

...so which was it??

Sattwa06 · 29-10-2019 10:33am

frosty123 wrote: »

RE: The final peno for SA v Wales..On ITV they said it was because of side entry, on RTE they said it was because of a collapsed maul

...so which was it??

At 74 mins, the referee awarded a penalty against Wales for dragging down the maul, which he may have gotten from his TJ on the near side.

The final penalty was at 79 mins was also against Wales when they infringed at a scrum (rising up in the front row, turning the scrum, the back row unbinding)

Sattwa06 · 29-10-2019 10:39am

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

the tackle in air was sport on. How you land has an impact on sanction and player landed on back/side so Penalty only.

A maul can become a ruck. Ball must be available immediately. A maul ends when the ball is on the ground as written in the laws. So yes a maul can become a ruck

A maul cannot become a ruck within the same action / phase of play. If a maul goes to ground, it is a *collapsed maul* and not a ruck (ie.defending players involved are not obliged to roll away as they would if it was a ruck). If the ball does not appear immediately, the outcome is a scrum to the defence (the team that didn't take the ball into the maul) —> RESULT :: turnover ball. REASON :: ball taken into a maul and not used. (Law 16.17)

The Lost Sheep · 29-10-2019 10:43am

Sattwa06 wrote: »

A maul cannot become a ruck within the same action / phase of play. If a maul goes to ground, it is a *collapsed maul* and not a ruck (ie.defending players involved are not obliged to roll away as they would if it was a ruck). If the ball does not appear immediately, the outcome is a scrum to the defence (the team that didn't take the ball into the maul) —> RESULT :: turnover ball. REASON :: ball taken into a maul and not used. (Law 16.17)

just reading this back. Yeah dont know why I posted that.... I'm blaming being knackered after few long of work over weekend. :pac:
Yeah a maul cant become a ruck.

Quin_Dub · 29-10-2019 11:30am

Sattwa06 wrote: »

At 74 mins, the referee awarded a penalty against Wales for dragging down the maul, which he may have gotten from his TJ on the near side.

The final penalty was at 79 mins was also against Wales when they infringed at a scrum (rising up in the front row, turning the scrum, the back row unbinding)

I thought the winning penalty to SA was quite harsh on Wales.. It looked to me like the Welsh player stumbled and then the moving maul fell over him rather then it being a deliberate attempt at a collapse.

Probably correct to the letter of the law , but a harsh call to lose a World-cup final on especially given that the ball was available at the back of the maul.

Sattwa06 · 29-10-2019 11:33am

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

just reading this back. Yeah dont know why I posted that.... I'm blaming being knackered after few long of work over weekend. :pac:
Yeah a maul cant become a ruck.

...and re-reading my message it sounds a little patronising and wasn't meant to. :-)

Sattwa06 · 29-10-2019 11:36am

Quin_Dub wrote: »

I thought the winning penalty to SA was quite harsh on Wales.. It looked to me like the Welsh player stumbled and then the moving maul fell over him rather then it being a deliberate attempt at a collapse.

Probably correct to the letter of the law , but a harsh call to lose a World-cup final on especially given that the ball was available at the back of the maul.

I agree, the maul fell on to him rather than him dragging it down, however they will tell you that the first rule of refereeing is not to ref on intent.

frosty123 · 30-10-2019 4:47pm

Sattwa06 wrote: »

At 74 mins, the referee awarded a penalty against Wales for dragging down the maul, which he may have gotten from his TJ on the near side.

)

Yes thats the one I'm on about..but afterwards the pundits on ITV said it was for side entry..the welsh no18

sydthebeat · 30-10-2019 5:01pm

frosty123 wrote: »

Yes thats the one I'm on about..but afterwards the pundits on ITV said it was for side entry..the welsh no18

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S_xl76979TY

at 20:21 in the clip above you can see garces make a one handed signal to indicate "pulling down the maul"

blackwhite · 30-10-2019 5:25pm

sydthebeat wrote: »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S_xl76979TY

at 20:21 in the clip above you can see garces make a one handed signal to indicate "pulling down the maul"

Looking at it again Wales 17 fairly clearly taking down the lead SA player and the rest went down to the right of them.
Wales 18 came in from the side at approx the same time, so can't have much complaint with a penalty from that one.

randomname2005 · 02-11-2019 11:01am

What is the rule with catching the ball out of the field of play. I thought you had to jump from inside the field of play but a few times players standing on the line or heel over the line and play on?

sydthebeat · 02-11-2019 11:02am

randomname2005 wrote: »

What is the rule with catching the ball out of the field of play. I thought you had to jump from inside the field of play but a few times players standing on the line or heel over the line and play on?

You have to be inside

The Lost Sheep · 02-11-2019 11:23am

randomname2005 wrote: »

What is the rule with catching the ball out of the field of play. I thought you had to jump from inside the field of play but a few times players standing on the line or heel over the line and play on?

you can stand outside the field of play and as long as you dont bring ball into your possession and simply touch ball and its play on.
You cant hold the ball

FellasFellas · 02-11-2019 6:20pm

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

you can stand outside the field of play and as long as you dont bring ball into your possession and simply touch ball and its play on.
You cant hold the ball

So you can bat a ball back in play with your two feet on ground out by the hoardings and it's play on?

Captain_Crash · 02-11-2019 9:21pm

FellasFellas wrote: »

So you can bat a ball back in play with your two feet on ground out by the hoardings and it's play on?

No, you can’t be on the ground while outside the field of play, but you can start your jump while off the field and so long as you only direct the ball back into play and don’t gain possession then alls cool!

Steve · 02-11-2019 10:40pm

If you are in touch, you can catch the ball and take a quick throw-in (as long as no other person has touched the ball and provided it goes backwards). You can throw to yourself in that case and then play on.

The only scenario where jumping from on-field to save a ball benefits you is from an opposition penalty kick.

blackwhite · 02-11-2019 11:42pm

Captain_Crash wrote: »

No, you can’t be on the ground while outside the field of play, but you can start your jump while off the field and so long as you only direct the ball back into play and don’t gain possession then alls cool!

Not quite. If the ball has crossed the line (the plane of touch under the laws) then to knock the ball back into play, you must jump from the field of play.

You can be in touch, jump and knock the ball ONLY if the ball hasn’t crossed the line before you touch it.

Once the ball has crossed the plane of touch, then you can either jump from in-play and try to knock it back, or else start from in touch, jump and catch it and land back in-play.

Law 18.2
2. The ball is not in touch or touch-in-goal if:
a. The ball reaches the plane of touch but is caught, knocked or kicked by a player who is in the playing area.
b. A player jumps, from within or outside the playing area, and catches the ball, and then lands in the playing area, regardless of whether the ball reached the plane of touch.
c. A player jumps from the playing area and knocks (or catches and releases) the ball back into the playing area, before landing in touch or touch-in-goal, regardless of whether the ball reached the plane of touch.
d. A player, who is in touch, kicks or knocks the ball, but does not hold it, provided it has not reached the plane of touch.

fryup · 03-11-2019 11:42pm

does the ref have to call "maul" for it to be a maul?

cause i didn't hear Garces call it in the final for that 2nd half peno

Former Former · 03-11-2019 11:50pm

fryup wrote: »

does the ref have to call "maul" for it to be a maul?

cause i didn't hear Garces call it in the final for that 2nd half peno

No, it's just to give extra clarity to both sides, no actual obligation to do so

CIARAN_BOYLE · 08-02-2020 4:29pm

What is the law about having your hand on the ground at scrum time?

I'm noticing a flanker today seem to be fully bound to the ground at all times. I didn't think that was legal but I might be mixing things up. Is it only props not allowed to have hand on the ground.

Squidgy Black · 08-02-2020 4:47pm

CIARAN_BOYLE wrote: »

What is the law about having your hand on the ground at scrum time?

I'm noticing a flanker today seem to be fully bound to the ground at all times. I didn't think that was legal but I might be mixing things up. Is it only props not allowed to have hand on the ground.

Openside and blindside can have their hand on the ground, only their inside shoulder needs to be bound. 8 needs to keep their head in and both shoulders on the locks.

Props need to use their outside hand to bind to the opposition prop

sydthebeat · 08-02-2020 5:28pm

CIARAN_BOYLE wrote: »

What is the law about having your hand on the ground at scrum time?

I'm noticing a flanker today seem to be fully bound to the ground at all times. I didn't think that was legal but I might be mixing things up. Is it only props not allowed to have hand on the ground.

Shure how can a flanker throw mud into his opponents face if his hand has to stay bound???

The Lost Sheep · 02-04-2020 9:41am

WORLD RUGBY HAS re-emphasised existing laws around the breakdown in a bid to clean up an area of the game that has become increasingly dangerous for players and increasingly frustrating for fans.

In short, the guidelines will ask referees to more strictly penalise the following:

- Side entry into rucks
- Players diving off their feet into rucks
- Players handling the ball after rucks have been formed
- Tacklers not releasing and rolling away immediately after completing tackles.

https://www.the42.ie/world-rugby-breakdown-laws-5064084-Apr2020/

ionadnapokot · 02-04-2020 10:59am

But there is no actual change in the law?

edit: jut checked. Same laws

The Lost Sheep · 02-04-2020 11:03am

ionadnapokot wrote: »

But there is no actual change in the law?

edit: jut checked. Same laws

yeah no change. Just world rugby saying refs should be more vigilant on certain areas

The Lost Sheep · 12-05-2020 4:31pm

https://twitter.com/EnglandRugby/status/1260218112785424385?s=19

Muligatawney · 13-05-2020 9:59am

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

https://twitter.com/EnglandRugby/status/1260218112785424385?s=19

Good decision. Will also stop commentators praising scrumhalves for "very intelligent play" for knowing a rule that everyone knows.

Losty Dublin · 13-05-2020 11:30am

Muligatawney wrote: »

Good decision. Will also stop commentators praising scrumhalves for "very intelligent play" for knowing a rule that everyone knows.

"Try" again

The Lost Sheep · 28-05-2020 10:38am

https://twitter.com/Murray_Kinsella/status/1265928067769401345?s=19

Losty Dublin · 28-05-2020 10:50am

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

https://twitter.com/Murray_Kinsella/status/1265928067769401345?s=19

After 30 years the Free Kick finally returns from exile to regain significance in the modern game

Ben Bailey · 28-03-2021 4:02pm

If when a player is temporarily suspended (yellow carded) just before half-time can that player join his teammates in the dressing room or must he remain apart from them, even though the match clock is stopped ?

awec · 28-03-2021 4:28pm

Ben Bailey wrote: »

If when a player is temporarily suspended (yellow carded) just before half-time can that player join his teammates in the dressing room or must he remain apart from them, even though the match clock is stopped ?

He can join them in the dressing room.

Quin_Dub · 29-03-2021 9:54am

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

https://twitter.com/Murray_Kinsella/status/1265928067769401345?s=19

I don't get the law trial for a hooker having to use a "brake foot" ??

It's always been a penalty offence for a hooker to take both feet off the ground in the scrum hasn't it?

Or am I misunderstanding what a "brake foot" is?

Lost Ormond · 29-03-2021 11:37am

Quin_Dub wrote: »

I don't get the law trial for a hooker having to use a "brake foot" ??

It's always been a penalty offence for a hooker to take both feet off the ground in the scrum hasn't it?

Or am I misunderstanding what a "brake foot" is?

The Brake foot is where the hooker's striking foot is forward. Not having that foot forward and behind the foot the hooker will use to strike doesn't help scrum stability

Ben Bailey · 30-03-2021 12:07am

awec wrote: »

He can join them in the dressing room.

Thank you. It does seem logical that since the match clock (and therefore the 'sin bin' clock also) is stopped until the referee signals the resumption of play that the suspended player can leave the 'sin bin' to join with his fellows for a refreshing cup of tea or the traditional segment of orange and have the coaches both chastise and simultaneously encourage him before he resumes his place on the naughty step.

Why then have a 'sin bin' at all. Why does the temporarily suspended player not leave the playing area and sit with the replacements & coaches ?

Losty Dublin · 30-03-2021 1:33am

Ben Bailey wrote: »

Thank you. It does seem logical that since the match clock (and therefore the 'sin bin' clock also) is stopped until the referee signals the resumption of play that the suspended player can leave the 'sin bin' to join with his fellows for a refreshing cup of tea or the traditional segment of orange and have the coaches both chastise and simultaneously encourage him before he resumes his place on the naughty step.

Why then have a 'sin bin' at all. Why does the temporarily suspended player not leave the playing area and sit with the replacements & coaches ?

The sin bin only covers playing time. Half time isn’t counted as playing time; as such she or he are free to join their teammates.

Don’t forget though, the sin bin is away from the technical area so the player and coaches are out of contact for the duration, so there is some disadvantage besides the obvious numerical one.

Ben Bailey · 30-03-2021 1:45pm

Losty, my point seems to have lost.

If ;

Player A is temporarily suspended after 10 minutes of play & he is sent to the 'bin' where he can have no contact with his teammates or coaches until he rejoins play or is substituted.

Player B is temporarily suspended after 35 minutes play & he is sent to the 'bin' for 5 minutes, then rejoins his teammates and coaches for halftime, then he goes back to the 'bin' for the final 5 minutes of his suspension.

It seems clear that the intention of temporary suspension includes separating / isolating the player suspended and that intention is nullified in the case of Player B.

Lost Ormond · 30-03-2021 2:29pm

Ben Bailey wrote: »

Losty, my point seems to have lost.

If ;

Player A is temporarily suspended after 10 minutes of play & he is sent to the 'bin' where he can have no contact with his teammates or coaches until he rejoins play or is substituted.

Player B is temporarily suspended after 35 minutes play & he is sent to the 'bin' for 5 minutes, then rejoins his teammates and coaches for halftime, then he goes back to the 'bin' for the final 5 minutes of his suspension.

It seems clear that the intention of temporary suspension includes separating / isolating the player suspended and that intention is nullified in the case of Player B.

It isnt nullified. The punishment is a restriction from playing. The player does sit apart during game time but coaches can still talk to player on sideline etc during game if they need to communicate anything.

sydthebeat · 30-03-2021 2:35pm

Ben Bailey wrote: »

...

It seems clear that the intention of temporary suspension includes separating / isolating the player suspended and that intention is nullified in the case of Player B.

no, thats not the intention.

there is nothing in the law book which stops a player in the sin bin receiving instructions from a coach

coaches are suppose to remain within the technical area

its just happens that the sin bin area is usually at a remove from the technical area

30-03-2021 5:20pm

Ben Bailey wrote: »

Losty, my point seems to have lost.
Player B is temporarily suspended after 35 minutes play & he is sent to the 'bin' for 5 minutes, then rejoins his teammates and coaches for halftime, then he goes back to the 'bin' for the final 5 minutes of his suspension.

It seems clear that the intention of temporary suspension includes separating / isolating the player suspended and that intention is nullified in the case of Player B.

If I may, as you know, a temporarily suspended player is required to remain in the Sin-Bin which is:

"the designated place outside the playing area within which a temporarily suspended player must remain" (see definitions)

I don't believe there ever was a specific purpose/intended consequence that the player could not be communicated with while in the Sin-Bin. Requiring an area to be designated as the Bin was always just an administrative thing to facilitate applying the suspension and keeping track of who was on/off, especially when you had props involved, where a team had to temporarily replace another position player to allow for scrums.

I believe you will see temporarily suspended players heading down the tunnel (where there is a tunnel) with their teams in the normal course at every level of the game. I don't think it's ever really been an issue.

I do remember NZ refs union decided to clarify that the laws would be applied as permitting the temporarily suspended player to rejoin the team over half-time, if the 10 minutes playing time of the suspension has not elapsed. I had a quick look at the IRB laws site for a clarification on it but couldn't find one. The laws are silent on it. I've never seen or heard of a ref attempting to keep a temporarily suspended player away from his team at half time though, or attempting to stop someone communicating with them.

edit: here's a link to content on the Wellington Rugby Refs website containing that clarification which was all I could find on a quick google but it definitely has been the subject of some discussion:

https://www.wrra.org.nz/coaching/wrra-directives/sin-bin-where-should-the-player-go/

Yeah_Right · 30-03-2021 6:17pm

Yellow carded players don't always go to a separate area though. I've definitely seen them sometimes sit on the bench with their team mates or use the stationary bikes to keep loose and other times take a seat on the half way line. It seems to vary depending on the competition.

Ben Bailey · 30-03-2021 9:55pm

Many thanks for all your replies.

I was intrigued by the manner in which temp suspension is managed and whether there exists any definitive guidance ; clearly not.

Does anyone believe that there could be a more gradual approach to sanctions ?

We currently have Free kick, Penalty kick, YC + Pk / Penalty Try, RC + Pk / Penalty Try.

Without wishing to further complicate things perhaps an extended Temporary Suspension of say, 20 mins for offences rated between YC and RC ?

Lost Ormond · 30-03-2021 11:47pm

Ben Bailey wrote: »

Many thanks for all your replies.

I was intrigued by the manner in which temp suspension is managed and whether there exists any definitive guidance; clearly not.

Does anyone believe that there could be a more gradual approach to sanctions?

We currently have Free kick, Penalty kick, YC + Pk / Penalty Try, RC + Pk / Penalty Try.

Without wishing to further complicate things perhaps an extended Temporary Suspension of say, 20 mins for offences rated between YC and RC ?

In the sport overall no there isnt but at higher levels where there is 4th/5th/6th officials there is a match official on sideline who can decide what they want. generally they sit with subs or even just beside the 4th official...

I dont see why there is a need for any more of a gradual approach to sanctions. Free kicks are primarily for technical offences such as too many players in a lineout, early push in a scrum and a dont see a need or want another tier between yellow and red. If committing an offence that is more than a yellow card offence or is a second yellow card offence i dont see why you should have a reprieve and potentially come on again. you may potentially been warned, committed penalty offences on multiple occasions and then been binned for 10 minutes. i dont see why you should get another break and potentially return to the pitch

31-03-2021 8:32am

I think we just need to have something like this in every ground.

https://mobile.twitter.com/Murray_Kinsella/status/671042429743710208?s=09

31-03-2021 11:28am

Yeah_Right wrote: »

Yellow carded players don't always go to a separate area though. I've definitely seen them sometimes sit on the bench with their team mates or use the stationary bikes to keep loose and other times take a seat on the half way line. It seems to vary depending on the competition.

Yes - it depends on where the Sin Bin area is, and even if it exists. It should be a defined location. There is no max/min size and it varies based on competition.

At grassroots level there is often no defined area. Players will often just stand on the sideline wherever they want, walk up and down etc.

Some refs unions adopt a unified approach, e.g. they should stand on the half-way line or behind the dead ball area and that becomes common practice. A ref should tell the teams before the game where he expects players to go when yellow carded as part of the pre-match conversations, if there isn't a defined area.

MJohnston · 31-03-2021 11:48am

Kind of at a tangent to this topic, but has any consideration ever been given to how much injury risk is created by having an active player sit stop for 10 minutes and then return to activity?

sydthebeat · 31-03-2021 11:56am

MJohnston wrote: »

Kind of at a tangent to this topic, but has any consideration ever been given to how much injury risk is created by having an active player sit stop for 10 minutes and then return to activity?

what do you think happens at half time??

MJohnston · 31-03-2021 1:03pm

sydthebeat wrote: »

what do you think happens at half time??

I’d imagine a lot of cool down stretches happen. I can’t imagine, at a professional level anyway, that they’re just chilling for ten minutes.

sydthebeat · 31-03-2021 1:12pm

MJohnston wrote: »

I’d imagine a lot of cool down stretches happen. I can’t imagine, at a professional level anyway, that they’re just chilling for ten minutes.

there is actually far more simple rest for the players, mostly seated... occasional rubs from physios etc

they dont spend the 15 minute half time break in motion and stretching.

but essentially the point is theres nothing different in what players do at half time than what a sin binned player is capable of / allowed to do.

ive even seen some sin bin players on a bike machine.

Ben Bailey · 31-03-2021 9:23pm

Lost Ormond wrote: »

In the sport overall no there isnt but at higher levels where there is 4th/5th/6th officials there is a match official on sideline who can decide what they want. generally they sit with subs or even just beside the 4th official...

I dont see why there is a need for any more of a gradual approach to sanctions. Free kicks are primarily for technical offences such as too many players in a lineout, early push in a scrum and a dont see a need or want another tier between yellow and red. If committing an offence that is more than a yellow card offence or is a second yellow card offence i dont see why you should have a reprieve and potentially come on again. you may potentially been warned, committed penalty offences on multiple occasions and then been binned for 10 minutes. i dont see why you should get another break and potentially return to the pitch

It seems to me that the underlying rationale behind the sometimes lengthy considerations between the match officials regarding sanctionable offences is an awareness of the considerable gap between YC and RC. It might assist match officials to have a middle ground sanction.
We've all witnessed striking discrepancies in interpretation by experienced officials.

Laws Question? Ask here!

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