Winter tyres just on the rear of FWD

grogi · 18-11-2019 4:23pm

djan wrote: »

That is not true at all. Contrary to the name, summer tyres offer better grip in the wet than winter tyres as long as it's above 0°C. Winter tyre's advantage is in grip in cold ice/snow/slush in low temperatures as they are still able to remain soft and offer traction. Summers will go rock hard in such conditions and offer near to zero grip regardless of FWD, RWD or AWD. Given Ireland's average temperatures, it could be beneficial to change over to winters for a few months but not all year long!

There is a slight flaw in your statement - you can't really have a wet surface if the temperature is below 0°C, can you?

Without spikes you won't get grip on ice, regardless if that's summer or winter tyre.

It is a myth that performance of the summer tyre dramatically deteriorates below certain temperature. The advisory to swap the tyres around 7°C was put there as the probability of snow-fall dramatically increases as you approach freezing temperatures. It is snow that makes summer tyres difficult to drive, not temperature.

The inferior characteristics of winter tyres in dry (not hot) conditions comes from the tread pattern. More blocks designed to deal with snow make it less stiff. The softness of the compound has less impact.

I really wonder why these things are still being discussed on boards regularly.

Because there is a lot of misguided information out there

The information is out there from various independent tests across nations worldwide.

All-season tyres handle wet and dry a bit better than winter tyres - and those are a perfect match for Irish conditions, especially the likes of Bridgestone A005 or Michelin Cross-Climate+. But they are more expensive - so if one doesn't want to spend premium money on all-seasons, winter tyre would be a better choice than a summer tyre in Irish climate. We don't really have summer temperatures that pose any risk for winter tyres.

the.red.baron · 18-11-2019 6:33pm

if you didn't get any grip from tyres on ice, then the cars wouldn't even move

this is obviously not the case

Plenty of videos comparing summer and winter tyres on ice rinks, both have grip

That's summer tyres and spikeless winter ones

I mean if its dry then the difference isn't going to huge.

What myths are you busting? Winter tyres compound stays softer at the lower temps providing more grip

any links to back up what you say

OPollo · 19-11-2019 9:47am

TheBoyConor wrote: »

And you thought that you were safe? I'd say it was sheer luck you managed to stay on the road.

That is one problem with winter tyres - it gives car enthusiasts this false sense of security and invincibility and they go out at 120 on a snow covered motorway and end up killing someone. Disgraceful reckless behaviour.

Did you ever think that other people might be on the road going slower and you'd be in danger of rear ending them at high speed?

All Scandinavia, Canada etc drives on snow on winter tyres like you do here in summer on summer tyres. Or you really think theres a speedlimit 30 km/h during the winter ?

Really sad to see keyboard warriors keep producing something they have no clue about

TheBoyConor · 19-11-2019 10:49am

Well i've never had any issue with winter driving on normal cheap no-name chinese tyres so I will not be changing.

the.red.baron · 19-11-2019 10:55am

OPollo wrote: »

All Scandinavia, Canada etc drives on snow on winter tyres like you do here in summer on summer tyres. Or you really think theres a speedlimit 30 km/h during the winter ?
Really sad to see keyboard warriors keep producing something they have no clue about

No they don't

they clear the roads, they aren't belting round at 120k on snow and ice

Where its properly snowy they use snow chains, which you have to take off when you drive on urban cleared roads

you can't drive at speed with them on

maybe you are confusing this with russia, the worlds premier source of car accident youtube videos

grogi · 19-11-2019 11:42am

the.red.baron wrote: »

No they don't

they clear the roads, they aren't belting round at 120k on snow and ice

Where its properly snowy they use snow chains, which you have to take off when you drive on urban cleared roads

you can't drive at speed with them on

maybe you are confusing this with russia, the worlds premier source of car accident youtube videos

You have absolutely no idea what you're talking about.

19-11-2019 2:29pm

Nobody uses chains in Finland and the speed limits on motorways are 100 km/h in winter months. Most of the secondary roads are 80 km/h and you can easily drive at speed limit on all of the roads once you have proper tyres almost regardless of the conditions. Deep snow like 20-30 cm you have to slow down but anything else just drive normally. And yes, you can safely drive at 80 where 10-20 km/h would not be possible on regular tyres under some conditions. The difference is just amazing.

Back in snowy winter of 2010/2011 I happened to have winter tyres under a saab and it felt safe driving at speed limit on the largely empty N7. Just slowed down to overtake clusters of other cars driving at 10-30 and one particular car actually spun 360 degrees twice when I was waiting to overtake them. I just couldn't believe the difference of not being at control at 10 km/h vs. being able to point and shoot at 80 km/h while keeping error of margin for unexpected situations. The only thing that stops a fwd car with appropriate tyres in snow is when enough snow packs under the car and lifts the fronts off the road.

The Rape of Lucretia · 19-11-2019 2:29pm

TheBoyConor wrote: »

Well i've never had any issue with winter driving on normal cheap no-name chinese tyres so I will not be changing.

This is it really. Ireland has no cause for winter tyres unless someone has a garage full of cars and can choose to keep on winter tyre shod just for that flurry every few years.
The crucial thing, and nobody should really be concerned about any other factor, is to have plenty of tread on them, and replace whenever it is low (changing below 4mm will if you want to maximise your safety). And of course, as always, never drive to a limit that you notice any tyre effect at all - if you do, you are driving recklessly.

Zubeneschamali · 19-11-2019 3:32pm

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

And of course, as always, never drive to a limit that you notice any tyre effect at all - if you do, you are driving recklessly.

But if you don't drive up to the limit so that you feel it, how do you know where the limit is?

Or do you just drive around at 30 km/hr in Dublin traffic?

Some of us cover long distances at speed - no-one can possibly do that without approaching the limits, even of the ridiculously expensive CrossClimates I am running.

[Edit: No, they are Continentals now, not the Michelins. Still premium rubber]

the.red.baron · 19-11-2019 3:43pm

grogi wrote: »

You have absolutely no idea what you're talking about.

still mad that you havent ben able to find links to backup your points then

they dont drive on snow like we drive on roads with no snow

you obviously have never left your parents basement

TheBoyConor · 19-11-2019 5:41pm

I wouldn't advocate spending on premium branded tyres. They probably are manufactured under contract by the same factory that make the chinese triangles or linglongs or whatever other no-name brands.

grogi · 19-11-2019 6:33pm

TheBoyConor wrote: »

I wouldn't advocate spending on premium branded tyres. They probably are manufactured under contract by the same factory that make the chinese triangles or linglongs or whatever other no-name brands.

A good trolling is always appreciated

OPollo · 19-11-2019 7:55pm

the.red.baron wrote: »

still mad that you havent ben able to find links to backup your points then

they dont drive on snow like we drive on roads with no snow

you obviously have never left your parents basement

Yeah they all driving on chains

Here you go, enjoy

https://youtu.be/yYkQChE75Uw

Dem those Scandinavians are so lucky

Do us a favor and stop trolling please. Things you havent experience doesnt mean they dont exist !

Now point me out, how many CHAINS you see attached to this car

https://youtu.be/hJuHVFtNG4k

My dear lord, just eliminate someone from this chat please ...

sdanseo · 19-11-2019 7:57pm

The simplest answer is buy two more. A half done job is at best next to pointless, and at worst leaves you without full control of the car.

Greyfoot · 19-11-2019 11:15pm

the.red.baron wrote: »

still mad that you havent ben able to find links to backup your points then

they dont drive on snow like we drive on roads with no snow

you obviously have never left your parents basement

Mate just cut the crap will ya. Like many others on this board I did drive regularly, meaning multiple seasons on snow, both on motorways and country roads. What do you think who clears the road if the snow falls heavily at 4am midweek? People still gotta get to work and drive no matter what. In my country there is not even a lower speed limit in snowy/icy conditions, everyone just drives like summer, meaning 120-130 kph on motorways. Plenty of awd cars will flash you the f off from the inside lane doing 160+.

grogi · 11-12-2019 1:47pm

grogi wrote: »

It is a myth that performance of the summer tyre dramatically deteriorates below certain temperature. The advisory to swap the tyres around 7°C was put there as the probability of snow-fall dramatically increases as you approach freezing temperatures. It is snow that makes summer tyres difficult to drive, not temperature.

The inferior characteristics of winter tyres in dry (not hot) conditions comes from the tread pattern. More blocks designed to deal with snow make it less stiff. The softness of the compound has less impact.

the.red.baron wrote: »

still mad that you havent ben able to find links to backup your points thent

Here you go...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bKtnczk8Mxk

You should be able to draw similar conclusions from this test http://www.tyrereviews.co.uk/Article/New-VS-4mm-VS-2mm-All-Season-Tyre-Performance.htm

I'll even point you directly to the relevant chart of braking in the dry...

There is no significant deterioration of dry performance of a summer tyre performance as the temperature drops below 7*C. It is still best even at freezing temperatures...

OPollo · 11-12-2019 2:15pm

I think it was in 2011 - Youghal (witnessed myself)
more than 12 cars found the same post in 2 hours, because its rarely dry in Ireland and in icy conditions (below 0 yeah?) we see totally opposite results. And then we not talking about couple meters difference but tens ...

ednwireland · 11-12-2019 2:25pm

samih wrote: »

Back in snowy winter of 2010/2011 I happened to have winter tyres under a saab and it felt safe driving at speed limit on the largely empty N7. Just slowed down to overtake clusters of other cars driving at 10-30 and one particular car actually spun 360 degrees twice when I was waiting to overtake them. I just couldn't believe the difference of not being at control at 10 km/h vs. being able to point and shoot at 80 km/h while keeping error of margin for unexpected situations. The only thing that stops a fwd car with appropriate tyres in snow is when enough snow packs under the car and lifts the fronts off the road.

ahh the annual winter tyre thread - what a delight

i think people who say winter tyres arent worth it either havent driven in proper snow on them or have the luxury of not going out if its snowing (i had secondhand winters in 2010-2012).

i have bridgestone a005 so a day of snow would be interesting to see how they cope they are great in the cold and wet we get up here cant remeber the last dry road i was on

grogi · 11-12-2019 2:55pm

OPollo wrote: »

I think it was in 2011 - Youghal (witnessed myself)
more than 12 cars found the same post in 2 hours, because its rarely dry in Ireland and in icy conditions (below 0 yeah?) we see totally opposite results. And then we not talking about couple meters difference but tens ...

We do, and if you look at my previous posts, I say that in Ireland it is better to drive year long on winter than summer tyres.

The post above is strictly to followup on lack of the sources another poster pointed out...

CJhaughey · 11-12-2019 5:13pm

ednwireland wrote: »

ahh the annual winter tyre thread - what a delight

i think people who say winter tyres arent worth it either havent driven in proper snow on them or have the luxury of not going out if its snowing (i had secondhand winters in 2010-2012).

i have bridgestone a005 so a day of snow would be interesting to see how they cope they are great in the cold and wet we get up here cant remeber the last dry road i was on

Have the A005 on my wifes Impreza and I can't fault them, the fronts were replaced recently because of shoulder wear but they are very reasonable in smaller sizes 15".
An excellently performing tyre for Irish conditions.

grogi · 11-12-2019 10:04pm

CJhaughey wrote: »

Have the A005 on my wifes Impreza and I can't fault them, the fronts were replaced recently because of shoulder wear but they are very reasonable in smaller sizes 15".
An excellently performing tyre for Irish conditions.

A005 is a fantastic tyre for Irish weather, better here than the universally acclaimed CrossClimate+. Excellent for typical Irish day, with outstanding wet performance. While the snow handling is nothing to praise, it won't leave you on the side of the road either - that's more than enough for those few days every year.

The Rape of Lucretia · 11-12-2019 10:26pm

ednwireland wrote: »

i think people who say winter tyres arent worth it either havent driven in proper snow on them or have the luxury of not going out if its snowing

I dont think anyone is saying winter tyres arent worth it. They undoubtedly are, in snow. But Ireland doesnt get snow. They benefit of having them, for the freak event, does not outweigh the loss of performance that we get in 99.9% of Irish driving winter conditions. Winter tyres are totally advisable for those who can keep a spare car in the garage with snow tyres on it for the handful of snowy days every five years.

Cee-Jay-Cee · 11-12-2019 10:45pm

biko wrote: »

Tyres with best grip goes on rear.

Only if you don't have to navigate steep hills/inclines in the snow/ice.

We live on very high ground and a few winters ago we got unexpected snow and my wife was unable to get her car up our road to our house and so had to abandon it 1km away. I had winter wheels/tyres for it but as we weren't expecting the snow didn't put them on. I took two of the wheels/tyres and went and fitted them to the front wheels of her car and she sailed up the road to the house.

Can you now explain how fitting those same tyres to the rear of her car would have helped her get up the road?

This same silly nonsense answer comes up every year. Winter tyres are useless on the rear of a FWD car. I have driven for countless winters with winter/snow tyres only on the front of my FWD car, I have never lost the rear end of crashed or had any mishap whatsoever because of it. I have however been able to drive easily and safely to my house when countless others have to abandon their cars on the main road as they have summer tyres with zero grip front or rear, fitted.

grogi · 11-12-2019 10:52pm

Cee-Jay-Cee wrote: »

Only if you don't have to navigate steep hills/inclines in the snow/ice.

We live on very high ground and a few winters ago we got unexpected snow and my wife was unable to get her car up our road to our house and so had to abandon it 1km away. I had winter wheels/tyres for it but as we weren't expecting the snow didn't put them on. I took two of the wheels/tyres and went and fitted them to the front wheels of her car and she sailed up the road to the house.

Can you now explain how fitting those same tyres to the rear of her car would have helped her get up the road?

This same silly nonsense answer comes up every year. Winter tyres are useless on the rear of a FWD car. I have driven for countless winters with winter/snow tyres only on the front of my FWD car, I have never lost the rear end of crashed or had any mishap whatsoever because of it. I have however been able to drive easily and safely to my house when countless others have to abandon their cars on the main road as they have summer tyres with zero grip front or rear, fitted.

She left the car, walked for 20 mins, but and in the end didn't harm herself. Just got a bit tired and frustrated.

With winter tyres at the front axle it might help going uphill. But while going even slight downhill the rear will be much happier to go first. The consequences would be much more severe.

OPollo · 12-12-2019 12:18am

Cee-Jay-Cee wrote: »

Only if you don't have to navigate steep hills/inclines in the snow/ice.

We live on very high ground and a few winters ago we got unexpected snow and my wife was unable to get her car up our road to our house and so had to abandon it 1km away. I had winter wheels/tyres for it but as we weren't expecting the snow didn't put them on. I took two of the wheels/tyres and went and fitted them to the front wheels of her car and she sailed up the road to the house.

Can you now explain how fitting those same tyres to the rear of her car would have helped her get up the road?

This same silly nonsense answer comes up every year. Winter tyres are useless on the rear of a FWD car. I have driven for countless winters with winter/snow tyres only on the front of my FWD car, I have never lost the rear end of crashed or had any mishap whatsoever because of it. I have however been able to drive easily and safely to my house when countless others have to abandon their cars on the main road as they have summer tyres with zero grip front or rear, fitted.

Hard to argue with people here, weather conditions vary, people from different regions etc
Worse part of it is that inexperienced ppl get too confident with winters in front only and accidents are easy to come ...

https://youtu.be/K7xXDMkVFlE

CJhaughey · 12-12-2019 5:55pm

grogi wrote: »

A005 is a fantastic tyre for Irish weather, better here than the universally acclaimed CrossClimate+. Excellent for typical Irish day, with outstanding wet performance. While the snow handling is nothing to praise, it won't leave you on the side of the road either - that's more than enough for those few days every year.

With AWD and the 005 tyres, the little Impreza is capable of going most places.
I agree I am not convinced by Crossclimates. I found their wet performance to be lacking particularly in standing water.

the culture of deference · 15-12-2019 7:12pm

hi5 wrote: »

It depends on what you want, if you want to go up and down hills successfully I'd put them on the front.
If you want to go round bends safely without ending up backwards in the ditch then I'd put them on the back.

Years ago I ran an FWD with winter fronts only and ended up backwards a few times at very slow speeds.

CiniO wrote: »

Generally when it comes to winter tyres I'll share my own experience in a form of myths and facts (and I've been regular user of winter tyres for last 25 years every winter).

Great post CiniO.

I have 2 sets for each of our cars.

16" 205's on Michelin summer tyres with the Alloys and 15" steelie's on 195 Michelin winters.

This year we left one car on its winter's all year, 10,000km's travelled from Feb to September and the tyres are still over 7mm +.

the.red.baron wrote: »

they aren't belting round at 120k on snow and ice

Have you ever driven on an Autobahn in a snow shower?

sdanseo wrote: »

The simplest answer is buy two more. A half done job is at best next to pointless, and at worst leaves you without full control of the car.

This

Winter tyres just on the rear of FWD

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