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Winter tyres just on the rear of FWD

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  • 07-11-2019 2:05pm
    #1
    EagerBeaverton
    Registered Users Posts: 63 ✭✭


    Found a bunch of posts here and on other sites about where to put new tyres (or better said, where to put the 'better' tyres). Range of personal opinions but posts with text/links to statements by manufacturers suggest putting the better tyres on the rear to reduce the chances of the rear end kicking out on you.

    Posts tended to be either about where to put new summer/all-season tyres. One linked to a video showing NOT to put winter tyres ONLY on the front of a FWD car.

    A month or two ago I got two new Falken all-season tyres put on the front of FWD mini cooper and then a little later got two part-worn Firestone winter tyres on the rear. The part worns are almost new, the tread depth is excellent. The car recently past NCT with this set-up, but I know the NCT isn't all it's cracked up to be.

    Would there be any reason to change what the car is running on in terms of the mix of all-season on front and winter tyres on rear?

    At the time of getting them changed there was a **** tonne of life stress so I wasn't as on the ball with thinking or asking questions about mixing the tyre types. I remember when they suggested them thinking would that be the right thing to do but when I saw the Firestone brand I at least felt comfortable that they weren't budget.


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    #2
    colm_mcm
    Registered Users Posts: 73,405 ✭✭✭✭colm_mcm


    I would prob put the winters on front


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    #3
    grogi
    Registered Users Posts: 8,615 ✭✭✭grogi


    Do you have all season tyres or summer tyres?

    People in Ireland very often misunderstand what an all season tyres is in Europe...


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    #4
    sumo12
    Registered Users Posts: 585 ✭✭✭sumo12


    Winter boots all round and then go out snow chasing :):)


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    #5
    hi5
    Registered Users Posts: 3,105 ✭✭✭hi5


    It depends on what you want, if you want to go up and down hills successfully I'd put them on the front.
    If you want to go round bends safely without ending up backwards in the ditch then I'd put them on the back.


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    #6
    Doctors room ghost
    Registered Users Posts: 4,809 ✭✭✭Doctors room ghost


    hi5 wrote: »
    It depends on what you want, if you want to go up and down hills successfully I'd put them on the front.
    If you want to go round bends safely without ending up backwards in the ditch then I'd put them on the back.



    Or put on 4 and have the best of both.
    You could always keep the other ones and have them put on again in summer


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    #7
    samih
    Registered Users Posts: 2,795 ✭✭✭samih




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    #8
    colm_mcm
    Registered Users Posts: 73,405 ✭✭✭✭colm_mcm


    Never do anything.


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    #9
    biko
    Registered Users Posts: 81,223 ✭✭✭✭biko


    Tyres with best grip goes on rear.


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    #10
    CJhaughey
    Registered Users Posts: 14,906 ✭✭✭✭CJhaughey


    Winter +All season is not that bad a combo as Winter and Summer.


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    #11
    _Brian
    Registered Users Posts: 18,515 ✭✭✭✭_Brian


    samih wrote: »

    That video annoys the ****e out of me.
    No matter the tyre who goes out and drives like a Moron in snow.

    Most of us want winter tyres to get us home at a safe slow speed.

    A number of times I’ve put winter tyres on the front of a FWD saloon car and it’s been great in snowy weather.


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    #12
    Paddy@CIRL
    Registered Users Posts: 1,899 ✭✭✭Paddy@CIRL


    biko wrote: »
    Tyres with best grip goes on rear.

    There are obvious flaws to this logic (FWD + snowy incline), but I understand that you're trying to protect people from unexpected oversteer situations during the course of typical driving.

    OP, I'd recommend putting four winters or all-seasons on. I'm running Michelin Cross Climate+ which have proved fantastic last winter and this year so far.


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    #13
    CalamariFritti
    Registered Users Posts: 5,461 ✭✭✭CalamariFritti


    Assuming your car is a front wheel drive (most cars are) Id put them there.
    But wouldnt use a true winter tyre in Ireland at all. 2 days of fast disappearing slush aren’t worth it. But I live by the coast. If you live up a hill in the midlands the situation may be different.


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    #14
    CiniO
    Registered Users Posts: 16,089 ✭✭✭✭CiniO


    _Brian wrote: »
    That video annoys the ****e out of me.
    No matter the tyre who goes out and drives like a Moron in snow.

    Not like moron, but driving normally on snow with speeds of 100km/h and over is pretty normal in countries where snow is regular occurance.

    Good winter tyres is a must obviously.

    I would be very wary of having worse grip tyres on the rear than front in snow.


    For OP I would recommend leaving his setup as is.
    All season on the front, and winter on the rear.


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    #15
    EagerBeaverton
    Registered Users Posts: 63 ✭✭EagerBeaverton


    Cheers folks. Made an error, the fronts are summer tyres not all-season, thought the guys putting them on said all-season but they aren't as per Oponeo.

    So it's a FWD with Falken summers at front and Firestone winters at the rear.

    In a section on winter tyres the RSA states: "should you wish to install a set of snow tyres, you always install a full set of four to reduce the risks of over and under steer." I can't tell if they mean winter tyres when they say snow tyres though. Though that goes along with other posts here.

    There is clearly pros / cons to putting the better grip tyres at the front or rear - few listed here.

    But overall, even from an insurance perspective, I should probably have all the same type of tyre (winters or all-season) on the car and not a mix. Has anyone ever asked this to an insurance company? If an accident happens and the car has summer fronts and winter rears is that going to void the insurance?


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    #16
    grogi
    Registered Users Posts: 8,615 ✭✭✭grogi


    EagerBeaverton wrote: »
    Cheers folks. Made an error, the fronts are summer tyres not all-season, thought the guys putting them on said all-season but they aren't as per Oponeo.

    So it's a FWD with Falken summers at front and Firestone winters at the rear.

    In a section on winter tyres the RSA states: "should you wish to install a set of snow tyres, you always install a full set of four to reduce the risks of over and under steer." I can't tell if they mean winter tyres when they say snow tyres though. Though that goes along with other posts here.

    There is clearly pros / cons to putting the better grip tyres at the front or rear - few listed here.

    But overall, even from an insurance perspective, I should probably have all the same type of tyre (winters or all-season) on the car and not a mix. Has anyone ever asked this to an insurance company? If an accident happens and the car has summer fronts and winter rears is that going to void the insurance?

    In that case leave the winter tyres at the back.

    You won't have more understeer in this setup than with four summer tyres, but the risk of uncontrolled oversteer will be dramatically reduced.
    Two winter tyres at the front will give you an illusion of great grip with an occasional sudden gigantic oversteer, which might literaly be leathal.


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    #17
    Greyfoot
    Registered Users Posts: 566 ✭✭✭Greyfoot


    No such thing as snow tyres unless you put studs into a set. Winter tyres are not only for snow but they are made of different compound and provide a lot better traction on cold tarmac under 6C degree if memory serves right.

    Edit: put them wherever you'd like won't make much difference in an fwd, but as someone already mentioned you'd be better off getting a full set then swap them over in spring.


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    #18
    biko
    Registered Users Posts: 81,223 ✭✭✭✭biko


    Do me a favour OP and get a full set so we don't have to have another "new tyres on front vs rear" 3 page discussion again :D


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    #19
    grogi
    Registered Users Posts: 8,615 ✭✭✭grogi


    Greyfoot wrote: »
    No such thing as snow tyres unless you put studs into a set. Winter tyres are not only for snow but they are made of different compound and provide a lot better traction on cold tarmac under 6C degree if memory serves right.

    Edit: put them wherever you'd like won't make much difference in an fwd, but as someone already mentioned you'd be better off getting a full set then swap them over in spring.

    Studs are not for snow, bit for ice. On snow winter tyres are grippy enough.


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    #20
    CJhaughey
    Registered Users Posts: 14,906 ✭✭✭✭CJhaughey


    It would be typical for the RSA to put out erroneous and confusing information.

    If the tyres have the 3PMSF marking then they are certified for Winter use.
    Many All season tyres have the 3PMSF marking and as such are legal in countries that mandate Winter tyre usage during cold weather.
    M+S means nothing, so make sure that your winter tyres are actually winter tyres not some old M+S tyres.


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    #21
    CiniO
    Registered Users Posts: 16,089 ✭✭✭✭CiniO


    Generally when it comes to winter tyres I'll share my own experience in a form of myths and facts (and I've been regular user of winter tyres for last 25 years every winter).

    1. Winter tyres provide better grip on snow and ice.
    Fact.
    Difference in grip on snow comparing to summer tyres is tremendous. It's a kind of difference like going through bend at 20km/h on summer tyres and ending up in a ditch, compared to making the same bend at 70km/h on winter tyres safely.
    Grip on ice is bit different thing, as winter tyres help compared to summer tyres but not really much. To have good grip on ice you need studded tyres.

    2. Winter tyres are necessery when temperature start going down below 7 degrees even on dry or wet tarmac.
    Myth.
    In my experience this magical 7 degrees borderline is typical marketing thing which is to encourage more people to get into changing tyres twice a year.
    Summer tyres can still provide very good grip at lower temperatures and are not really worse than winter tyres. Even at the like of -20 degrees, on dry or wet surface I didn't notice much difference between summer and winter tyres.

    3. Winter tyres used in summer will wear excessively and will provide inferior grip.
    Myth.
    I actually believed it long, but once tried driving in a summer on winter tyres, and they neither worn quickly nor provided bad grip. Even opposite - I though they were giving pretty decent grip on abbrasive Irish country roads.

    4. All-season tyres are good compromise for climates like Ireland.
    Both Myth and Fact.
    On the one hand indeed they will behave well on dry and wet road, and will give extra grip on snow compared to summer tyres.
    However extra grip on snow might be hardly noticable.
    Last summer I purchased a set of Klebber Quadraxer all-season tyres, and while I'm really happy with web and dry road grip, then snow driving is a bit of disaster. They are only a very slightly better than summer tyres no snow. (comparing to example above that bend could be driven at 25km/h maybe).

    5. It's better to have better grip tyres on the back than front.
    Fact.
    Otherwise, especially when driving on slippery surfaces like snow or ice, you are making it extremelly easy to oversteer your car, which requires good skills to recover.
    When better tyres are on the back, you won't oversteer easily. You might understeer, but that's much easier and more intuitive to controll than recovering from oversteer.


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    #22
    Greyfoot
    Registered Users Posts: 566 ✭✭✭Greyfoot


    CiniO wrote: »
    Generally when it comes to winter tyres I'll share my own experience in a form of myths and facts (and I've been regular user of winter tyres for last 25 years every winter).

    1. Winter tyres provide better grip on snow and ice.
    Fact.
    I agree

    2. Winter tyres are necessery when temperature start going down below 7 degrees even on dry or wet tarmac.
    Fact
    Sure there is marketing involved too but you can't deny the fact that they are a lot softer than summer tyres and they DO provide superior grip in cold dry weather. Snow is a different matter, summer tyres are basically as slicks on wet.
    I strongly discourage anyone trying to drive in sub zero temps with summer tyres as they become hard as if they were 20 years old.

    3. Winter tyres used in summer will wear excessively and will provide inferior grip.
    Fact
    They do wear out a lot quicker in warm weather and they provide highly inadequate grip during heavy braking and cornering. You can literally blow up one on a hot summer day with proper determination. ;)

    4. All-season tyres are good compromise for climates like Ireland.
    Myth/Fact
    Never tried them so can't comment.

    5. It's better to have better grip tyres on the back than front.
    Myth/Fact
    This actually depends entirely on the vehicle's layout and its drivers abilities. I'd rather have better tyres on the front in an fwd and better rears in an rwd all day long. Awd is a whole lot of different animal you'd need all corners covered to have any meaningful driving experience.

    Sorry to derail just wanted to clear up some points mentioned here.


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    #23
    CJhaughey
    Registered Users Posts: 14,906 ✭✭✭✭CJhaughey


    Greyfoot wrote: »
    Sorry to derail just wanted to clear up some points mentioned here.

    You have to clarify this a bit further, Winter tyres are not all the same.

    Summer tyres fall into several different segments, Ultra high performance, Touring, budget etc.

    Winter tyres are the same you have Studded Nordic Winter, Non studded Nordic winter, Central Europe winter and All season which can fall into the latter two camps.

    In my experience using winters over 10 years I have found that some winters do wear quickly in summer, others not so much.
    Continental TS850 wore as long as summers, likewise Nokian All Weather+
    Generally Central European Winters last a long time as they are designed for cool and damp conditions with not a lot of snow or ice, which is generally what we get here most of the year.

    True Nordic winters like Nokian Hakkapellita will wear quickly on dry tarmac surfaces and as such are not suitable for the conditions we experience here in general apart from unusual events like winter 2009-10, perhaps this was the type of winter tyre you experienced?

    It's my contention that good All Season tyres with the 3PMSF marking are very suitable for Irish roads in general, we don't get extreme variations in heat from Winter to summer in terms of road temperatures, yes a few days in summer with sun will see the tarmac melt but that's the exception more than the rule.
    Bridgestone A005 are excellent in my experience with very good water clearance abilities which is a major factor in tyres used mainly on the West coast, East coast doesn't get anywhere near as much rainfall so water clearance isn't as big a priority.


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    #24
    padyjoe
    Registered Users Posts: 1,194 ✭✭✭padyjoe


    I don't get it. What's the point in mixing different season tyres? Wearing flip-flops in frost or winter boots in 30 degrees? :-D
    1 average new tyre costs 1-2 full tanks of fuel, 1 full tank equals to 600-900kms, let's call it a monthly mileage, so in the 'best' case scenario the money will be spent in 8 months. The tyres will have much more life than 8 months.

    (I had this mixed setup for a short while, resulted in much more careful driving as I didn't want to find out which is the weakest link in given weather condition.)

    OP ask yourself a question: am I happy and confident with my tyres? If yes, drive accordingly due to different grip on each axle. You might never put them to the real test but always better be safe then sorry.


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    #25
    grogi
    Registered Users Posts: 8,615 ✭✭✭grogi


    padyjoe wrote: »
    I don't get it.

    Your cognition - your problem
    padyjoe wrote: »
    What's the point in mixing different season tyres? Wearing flip-flops in frost or winter boots in 30 degrees? :-D
    1 average new tyre costs 1-2 full tanks of fuel, 1 full tank equals to 600-900kms, let's call it a monthly mileage, so in the 'best' case scenario the money will be spent in 8 months. The tyres will have much more life than 8 months.

    So in other words you're doubling your car cost for 8 month?!
    padyjoe wrote: »
    (I had this mixed setup for a short while, resulted in much more careful driving as I didn't want to find out which is the weakest link in given weather condition.)

    OP ask yourself a question: am I happy and confident with my tyres? If yes, drive accordingly due to different grip on each axle. You might never put them to the real test but always better be safe then sorry.

    You are a victim of the same symptom of the huge portion of the population - lack of planning and forward thinking. You don't see a point of a change if it doesn't bring an immediate effect forgetting it might be a step towards desired goal.

    Mixed setup with grippier tyres on the rear by no means will not be worse than summer tyres an all four. It is however a step towards four not-miserable-in-snow tyres.


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    #26
    padyjoe
    Registered Users Posts: 1,194 ✭✭✭padyjoe


    Why are you taking this so personal?
    My cognition is more than adequate. It's one opinion, take it or leave, don't use it for far flung conclusion.

    What I was trying to say: new set of tyres last for years, why would one skimp on safety? If you spend 400 quid on petrol in 8 months, spending the same amount on tyres and they do last at least 4-5-whatever years. So tyre expenditure is small compared to fuel considering their lifespan.

    Lack of planning and forward thinking? I have to smile, if you knew me personally, you never would in your wildest dreams say this about me.
    To me the mixed setup is not a step forward. At least not for the average Joes (because this is not the discussion about professionals). The car has four wheels not two. Mixing a different disclipine tyres creates imbalance and that's not a good thing for everyday driving.

    You should try cycling perhaps. If you mess with your grip, there's a big price to pay if something goes wrong.


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    #27
    Zubeneschamali
    Registered Users Posts: 16,686 ✭✭✭✭Zubeneschamali


    padyjoe wrote: »
    spending the same amount on tyres and they do last at least 4-5-whatever years.

    Tyres last you 5 years??

    EDIT: Or do you mean swapping winters on for a few months a year, they last that long?


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    #28
    Greyfoot
    Registered Users Posts: 566 ✭✭✭Greyfoot


    CJhaughey wrote: »
    You have to clarify this a bit further, Winter tyres are not all the same.

    Summer tyres fall into several different segments, Ultra high performance, Touring, budget etc.

    Winter tyres are the same you have Studded Nordic Winter, Non studded Nordic winter, Central Europe winter and All season which can fall into the latter two camps.

    In my experience using winters over 10 years I have found that some winters do wear quickly in summer, others not so much.
    Continental TS850 wore as long as summers, likewise Nokian All Weather+
    Generally Central European Winters last a long time as they are designed for cool and damp conditions with not a lot of snow or ice, which is generally what we get here most of the year.

    True Nordic winters like Nokian Hakkapellita will wear quickly on dry tarmac surfaces and as such are not suitable for the conditions we experience here in general apart from unusual events like winter 2009-10, perhaps this was the type of winter tyre you experienced?

    It's my contention that good All Season tyres with the 3PMSF marking are very suitable for Irish roads in general, we don't get extreme variations in heat from Winter to summer in terms of road temperatures, yes a few days in summer with sun will see the tarmac melt but that's the exception more than the rule.
    Bridgestone A005 are excellent in my experience with very good water clearance abilities which is a major factor in tyres used mainly on the West coast, East coast doesn't get anywhere near as much rainfall so water clearance isn't as big a priority.

    Yes mate they are not made equal alright, some are better quality and composition than others, I am not up to date to be honest on their quality nowadays as I live in a snow and sub zero free part of the EU where winters usually see around 12C average.

    My experience comes from driving years in Eastern European roads during winter but truth to be told the choice was less than stellar back than so you are most likely right in what you stated. I was in Dublin when that 2 days heavy snow stopped the country dead in its tracks alright. Had an e36 with summer tyres, was not fun at all trying to get home. :D


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    #29
    EagerBeaverton
    Registered Users Posts: 63 ✭✭EagerBeaverton


    Cheers again and apologies, I wasn't intending on igniting a "new tyres on front vs rear" discussion. I understand that there are pros and cons to both, and each person has a preference - so each to their own.

    I was less concerned about new vs old on front/rear, and more on whether different types (winter vs summer) is problematic, though I know the arguments are related.

    I didn't specifically go for this set-up - not being on the ball at the time of needing new tyres meant this set-up is what's ended up on the car somewhat accidentally. So just to clarify, I'm not asking if this set-up is 'ideal', I'm more focused on whether it's safe.

    I'm also primarily thinking about what is legal or potentially something that would lead an insurer to void the insurance policy if an accident were to occur. Has anyone heard of an insurance company claiming that the tyres were too 'different' from each other and so the car was not road worthy technically?

    Just to mention again, the car passed the NCT with this setup. Though I know the NCT isn't all it's cut out to be.


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    #30
    OPollo
    Registered Users Posts: 31 ✭OPollo


    Better tyres always at the rear. At slushy conditions the last thing you want to see/feel is over-steering when overtaking another car and you have to sudden stop ...Rear end will be gone in front of you ... Also people drive more carefully when under-steering is an issue.


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    #31
    hognef
    Registered Users Posts: 828 ✭✭✭hognef


    I suspect that, in countries where winter tyres are a recognised concept, it is illegal to mix summer and winter tyres, due to their vastly different characteristics. I know for a fact this is true for Norway.

    Controlling the car would become very unpredictable as the front tyres would have the (vastly) better grip in some situations and the rear tyres in other situations, e.g. depending on temperature, ice, snow and wet vs dry. I would definitely not use a mix myself.


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