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Watts per kilogram

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  • 15-03-2010 10:22am
    #1
    Lumen
    Registered Users Posts: 31,014 ✭✭✭✭


    The last training plan is not fully realised, but it's nonetheless time for a new 13 week plan.

    This will take me through to the end of June, including my two week family cycling holiday.

    Despite some opinions that power to weight is not important in Irish road racing, this does not meet my very limited experience so far. At least while power to weight may not determine the outcome of a sprint finish, it seems to be a factor in whether you get the opportunity to contest a sprint at all, or are dropped/worn out on one of the preceeding drags.

    Besides which, it's a convenient fiction since I'm fairly skinny, and gives me a reason to control my diet.

    My 5 min max power, which is quite easy to measure on the turbo since it doesn't require extended suffering, is currently about 320W. If I take my optimum "racing weight" (i.e. that which is maintainable with a controlled diet) to be 68kg, that gives a 5 min W/kg of 4.7.

    A reasonable goal is therefore about 5W/kg (340W @ 68kg) for 5 minutes.

    With a balanced power profile, this would give the following power peaks (according to the Coggan chart):

    5 sec: 17.24 W/kg (1170W @ 68kg)
    1 min: 8.63 W/kg (587W @ 68kg)
    5 min: 5.01 W/kg (340W @ 68kg)
    FT: 4.18 W/kg (284W @ 68kg)

    My biggest physical weakness currently is a lack of anaerobic power. The 5 sec and 1 min power levels seem completely unattainable, but since I've never focused on measuring or training those intervals I have no idea.

    The plan will be based on four sessions a week, usually some combination of turbo or road intervals and races.

    I expect the logs to be quite dull. Sorry!


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    #2
    tunney
    Registered Users Posts: 12,583 ✭✭✭✭tunney


    Lumen wrote: »
    The last training plan is not fully realised, but it's nonetheless time for a new 13 week plan.

    This will take me through to the end of June, including my two week family cycling holiday.

    Despite some opinions that power to weight is not important in Irish road racing, this does not meet my very limited experience so far. At least while power to weight may not determine the outcome of a sprint finish, it seems to be a factor in whether you get the opportunity to contest a sprint at all, or are dropped/worn out on one of the preceeding drags.

    Besides which, it's a convenient fiction since I'm fairly skinny, and gives me a reason to control my diet.

    My 5 min max power, which is quite easy to measure on the turbo since it doesn't require extended suffering, is currently about 320W. If I take my optimum "racing weight" (i.e. that which is maintainable with a controlled diet) to be 68kg, that gives a 5 min W/kg of 4.7.

    A reasonable goal is therefore about 5W/kg (340W @ 68kg) for 5 minutes.

    With a balanced power profile, this would give the following power peaks (according to the Coggan chart):

    5 sec: 17.24 W/kg (1170W @ 68kg)
    1 min: 8.63 W/kg (587W @ 68kg)
    5 min: 5.01 W/kg (340W @ 68kg)
    FT: 4.18 W/kg (284W @ 68kg)

    My biggest physical weakness currently is a lack of anaerobic power. The 5 sec and 1 min power levels seem completely unattainable, but since I've never focused on measuring or training those intervals I have no idea.

    The plan will be based on four sessions a week, usually some combination of turbo or road intervals and races.

    I expect the logs to be quite dull. Sorry!


    Lets try this with some real figures - whats your present weight?


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    #3
    Lumen
    Registered Users Posts: 31,014 ✭✭✭✭Lumen


    tunney wrote: »
    Lets try this with some real figures - whats your present weight?

    Between 69kg and 71kg, depending on when I measure it.

    edit: my scales said 69.4kg when I got home from yesterday's short race, so probably 70.5kg when fully hydrated.


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    #4
    tunney
    Registered Users Posts: 12,583 ✭✭✭✭tunney


    Lumen wrote: »
    Between 69kg and 71kg, depending on when I measure it.

    edit: my scales said 69.4kg when I got home from yesterday's short race, so probably 70.5kg when fully hydrated.

    Where you want to be:

    5 sec: 17.24 W/kg (1170W @ 68kg)
    1 min: 8.63 W/kg (587W @ 68kg)
    5 min: 5.01 W/kg (340W @ 68kg)
    FT: 4.18 W/kg (284W @ 68kg)

    Where you are:

    5 sec: 15.88 W/kg (1119W @ 70.5kg)
    1 min: 8.05 W/kg (567W @ 70.5kg)
    5 min: 4.50 W/kg (320W @ 70.5kg)
    FT: 3.73 W/kg (263W @ 70.5kg)

    FTP is a little on the low side too I'd have said.

    How you tried Sweet spot training (SST)? 45 minute blocks of it? 2x20 at FTP is a good one too.

    How are you measuring power? What turbo?


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    #5
    trad
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,696 ✭✭✭trad


    What ever happened to going for a spin with the lads to improve performance?


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    #6
    Billy Whizz
    Registered Users Posts: 305 ✭✭Billy Whizz


    I'd agree with Tunney, FTP is a little on the low side.

    Sessions like...
    2x45 min at 90% FTP
    1x60 min at 95% FTP
    2x20 min at 95% FTP
    ... will bring your FTP along and your 5 minute power with it (to some degree).

    I wouldn't worry about your short duration stuff, seems good to begin with.

    Also watch out for that chart! It's very much on the low side (for Irish racing anyway). A1s over here would be in the "domestic pro" category, A2s in the "Cat 1" category and so on...

    Also, don't worry so much about the % of FTP you do these long, threshold efforts at. If you start a 2x20 session and can only hold 90% of FTP of that particular day, don't sweat it. Just get it done at 90% of FTP. You're still training the targeted systems, and you will avoid the trap of trying to hit PBs in every session.


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    #7
    Lumen
    Registered Users Posts: 31,014 ✭✭✭✭Lumen


    tunney wrote: »
    FTP is a little on the low side too I'd have said.

    In what sense? My 5 min max is higher up the profile than my measured FTP, but I just put that down to lack of motivation for longer intervals.
    tunney wrote: »
    How you tried Sweet spot training (SST)? 45 minute blocks of it? 2x20 at FTP is a good one too.

    I can watch TV at tempo, so SST is an option. I quite like doing anaerobic intervals with tempo recovery - quite race specific and packs a lot of intensity into a short session.
    tunney wrote: »
    How are you measuring power? What turbo?

    Powertap hub.
    trad wrote: »
    What ever happened to going for a spin with the lads to improve performance?

    I don't really have time for that due to family commitments.

    Once the club racing season starts I hope to be able to race Thurs night and once at the weekend when there's an A4 race within 45 mins drive. My long spin will be 6am-10am on Saturday mornings if I'm not racing, and perhaps Tues nights in mid-summer.

    Group training rides are fun but not often great training, and I get the social aspect from meeting people at races.


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    #8
    Lumen
    Registered Users Posts: 31,014 ✭✭✭✭Lumen


    Billy Whizz wrote: »
    I wouldn't worry about your short duration stuff, seems good to begin with.

    To clarify, I am probably no way near the "flat profile" figures on 1min and 5min power. I haven't measured them, but I very rarely go above 400W in normal riding, let alone 1000W.
    Billy Whizz wrote: »
    Also watch out for that chart! It's very much on the low side (for Irish racing anyway). A1s over here would be in the "domestic pro" category, A2s in the "Cat 1" category and so on...

    Yes, I'm minding your advice on that from the other thread. The two A4 races I've done have been in the 220W-240W range on average, and I've heard that an average A3 would find 250W to be at the bottom end of their tempo range (it's closer to threshold for me currently).
    Also, don't worry so much about the % of FTP you do these long, threshold efforts at. If you start a 2x20 session and can only hold 90% of FTP of that particular day, don't sweat it. Just get it done at 90% of FTP. You're still training the targeted systems, and you will avoid the trap of trying to hit PBs in every session.

    Will do, ta.


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    #9
    Lumen
    Registered Users Posts: 31,014 ✭✭✭✭Lumen


    One more thing...

    Anyone know the correct procedure for measuring 5sec and 1min power on a turbo?

    I assume I just warm up as usual then nail it. Spinning start or stationary? Should I use a massive gear for the 5 sec power?


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    #10
    Billy Whizz
    Registered Users Posts: 305 ✭✭Billy Whizz


    I'd argue that both are best done on the road.

    Don't use too big a gear for 5 sec power. Start off at 80rpm and you should be hitting 120-130rpm at the end of your sprint.

    1 minute all-out efforts are extremely rare and you won't find them in your race files. If you want to find your 1 min max, sprint as hard as you can (as though you were trying for a 5 sec max) and then just hold it for as long as you can. The last 30 secs should be absolute torture. probably best done on a hill. I'd argue that's it's not too important fiinding out your 1 min max anyway. If you wanted to do 1 min intervals you should do them at an output that is somewhat repeatable.


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    #11
    Raam
    Registered Users Posts: 14,317 ✭✭✭✭Raam


    How did you guys measure your FTP? I don't mean which device you used.


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    #12
    tunney
    Registered Users Posts: 12,583 ✭✭✭✭tunney


    Raam wrote: »
    How did you guys measure your FTP? I don't mean which device you used.

    0.92 * 20 TT
    0.9 * Power at vo2max
    1.0 * 60 minute TT


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    #13
    Lumen
    Registered Users Posts: 31,014 ✭✭✭✭Lumen


    tunney wrote: »
    0.92 * 20 TT
    0.9 * Power at vo2max
    1.0 * 60 minute TT

    There are a couple of other variants.

    The Coggan/Allen test method involves an initial 5 min max power "leg emptier", which means you are so knackered when you do the 20 min interval that you can just use that, i.e. 20TT=FTP. Unless I misunderstood their test.

    Alternatively, since motivation is always lower in a training test than in a race, you can just take 20TT=FTP.

    Doesn't really matter, as long as it's consistent.


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    #14
    Billy Whizz
    Registered Users Posts: 305 ✭✭Billy Whizz


    1x60 is the gold standard, but in my experience if you do a 1x60 in training you'll only achieve 95% of what you'd do for a 60 min effort if you were rested and motivated.

    The power output at which you do 2x20s consistently is a good idea of your FTP, provided you are rested. If you're doing 2x20s with fatigue from previous days you might do them 10W lower than FTP, but again thats no harm, just note that you FTP might indeed be a tad higher.

    90% of power at VO2Max is wrong though. 90% of VO2Max is the typical intensity of a 1hr TT (if well-trained), but it's different from power at 90% of VO2Max - which is somewhere in the region of 72-77% of power at VO2Max. Phew...


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    #15
    tunney
    Registered Users Posts: 12,583 ✭✭✭✭tunney


    Lumen wrote: »
    There are a couple of other variants.

    The Coggan/Allen test method involves an initial 5 min max power "leg emptier", which means you are so knackered when you do the 20 min interval that you can just use that, i.e. 20TT=FTP. Unless I misunderstood their test.
    It always reads too high IMHO. 0.95 is what they recommend even with the "leg emptier"


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    #16
    tunney
    Registered Users Posts: 12,583 ✭✭✭✭tunney


    Billy Whizz wrote: »
    90% of power at VO2Max is wrong though. 90% of VO2Max is the typical intensity of a 1hr TT (if well-trained), but it's different from power at 90% of VO2Max - which is somewhere in the region of 72-77% of power at VO2Max. Phew...

    I meant 90% of max power in vo2max test.


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    #17
    Lumen
    Registered Users Posts: 31,014 ✭✭✭✭Lumen


    Thu
    - Road bike/turbo, 0:40, 196W, 470kJ. (10@140W, 12@200W, 1@410W, 1@310W, 3@250W, 7@160W, 1@410W, 4@160W, 1@410W).

    Fri
    - Road bike/turbo, 0:48, 193W, 556kJ. (20@160W, 3x1/1 cadence/recovery, 3x(2x300W, 5@200W)

    Sun: Newbridge GP.
    - 0:58 ish, 810kJ, 169bpm, 233W, max 186bpm.
    - Power peaks 5s: 785W, 30s: 414W, 1m:397W, 5m:309W, 10m:278W, 20m:266W, 30m:252W.
    - 250kJ warm up/down.

    Total work: 2086kJ
    Closing weight: 69.5kg
    Best peak 20min: 266W


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    #18
    Lumen
    Registered Users Posts: 31,014 ✭✭✭✭Lumen


    Wed: St Patrick's Day race at Dunboyne.
    - 1:42, 1276kJ, 168bpm, 208W, max 185bpm.
    - Peak power: 5s:751W, 30s:458W, 1m:390W, 5m:279W, 10m:266W, 20m:250W, 30m:232W, 60m:219W.
    - 401kJ warm up/down.

    Fri: turbo.
    - 0:48, 576kJ, 198W, 149bpm. 20@161W, 12@262W, 5@183W, 5@260W, 6@160W. Warmer temps not making turbo any easier.

    Sun: race at Bohermeen.
    - 1:35, 1251kJ, 218W, no HR.
    - Peak power: 5s:808W, 30s:551W, 1m:401W, 5m:297W, 10m:275W, 20m:256W, 30m:246W, 60m:226W.

    Total work: 3505kJ
    Closing weight: 69kg
    Best peak 20min: 256W


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    #19
    blorg
    Registered Users Posts: 15,989 ✭✭✭✭blorg


    Seems to all be trending in an upwards direction.


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    #20
    mloc123
    Registered Users Posts: 9,454 ✭✭✭mloc123


    You doing race three of the series in the park on Sunday?


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    #21
    Lumen
    Registered Users Posts: 31,014 ✭✭✭✭Lumen


    mloc123 wrote: »
    You doing race three of the [Winter Duathlon] series in the park on Sunday?

    Probably not. I have an entry, but there's a road race on at Balbriggan...

    Good luck with it!


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    #22
    mloc123
    Registered Users Posts: 9,454 ✭✭✭mloc123


    Lumen wrote: »
    Probably not. I have an entry, but there's a road race on at Balbriggan...

    Good luck with it!

    Not doing it myself, no entry and I'm on a rest week... which I intend to take seriously for once :D


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    #23
    blorg
    Registered Users Posts: 15,989 ✭✭✭✭blorg


    Lumen wrote: »
    Probably not. I have an entry, but there's a road race on at Balbriggan...

    Good luck with it!
    Good on you, he is one of us now. Triathletes hands off!


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    #24
    niceonetom
    Registered Users Posts: 4,833 ✭✭✭niceonetom


    I spied a pair of runners with elastic laces and one of those pedometer dohickies at the sign-in to one of the road races. I don't think we're out of woods yet.


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    #25
    Lumen
    Registered Users Posts: 31,014 ✭✭✭✭Lumen


    niceonetom wrote: »
    I spied a pair of runners with elastic laces and one of those pedometer dohickies at the sign-in to one of the road races. I don't think we're out of woods yet.

    They'll have to do until the Mavic Zxellium podium shoes become available.

    Nothing shouts hopeless over-optimism louder than a podium shoe. They're soooo me.


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    #26
    Raam
    Registered Users Posts: 14,317 ✭✭✭✭Raam


    Lumen wrote: »
    They'll have to do until the Mavic Zxellium podium shoes become available.

    Nothing shouts hopeless over-optimism louder than a podium shoe. They're soooo me.

    Jaysus, get off yer bleedin' podium will ya?


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    #27
    Lumen
    Registered Users Posts: 31,014 ✭✭✭✭Lumen


    A few races done in the last month but still feeling fresh so will keep up the speed work until I have time for longer spins.

    Tue: first proper road session of the year. Only had an hour, so kept it brisk. Tempo with some short 400W+ intervals, a few traffic lights.
    - 1:03, 236W, 902kJ, 166bpm, 34kph.
    - 20@225W, 1@422W, 5@239W, 1@412W, 5@231W, 1@407W, 30@226W.
    - Peak power: 5s:821W, 30s:441W, 1m:427W, 5m:278W, 10m:275W, 20m:264W, 30m:249W, 60m:238W.

    Fri: spin out to Cruagh to check out the climb for next Tues. 2:47 @ 173W, 1736kJ.
    - 1:14 @ 150W, 668kJ
    - 0:10 @ 299W, 180kJ (aborted attempt)
    - 0:20 @ 280W, 345kJ (proper attempt)
    - 1:03 @ 143W, 543kJ
    Last hillclimb I did in Sept 09 was 260W for 18 mins, so 280W for 20 mins (at the same HR) is a definite improvement. GoldenCheetah estimates from recent rides that CP60=280W, CP20=295W, although I don't fancy trying to keep 280W up for an hour.

    Sun: another crack at Cruagh. 2hrs @ 169W, 1220kJ.
    - 0:50 @ 155W, 464kJ
    - 0:19(:27) @ 281W, 328kJ
    - 0:51 @ 136W, 428kJ

    Total work: 3858kJ.
    Closing weight: 68.5kg
    Best peak 20min: 280W


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    #28
    Billy Whizz
    Registered Users Posts: 305 ✭✭Billy Whizz


    You using WKO?


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    #29
    velo.2010
    Registered Users Posts: 3,010 ✭✭✭velo.2010


    @Lumen, who was that good-looking guy flying up the Sally Gap on Saturday that you passed on your way down?

    :D


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    #30
    Lumen
    Registered Users Posts: 31,014 ✭✭✭✭Lumen


    velo.2010 wrote: »
    @Lumen, who was that good-looking guy flying up the Sally Gap on Saturday that you passed on your way down?

    Not me. I haven't been up Sally this year. :(
    Billy Whizz wrote: »
    You using WKO?

    Not much. I had the full-on WKO+/TrainingPeaks subscription last year, but it wasn't really better than the alternatives, and when they required a fresh purchase for a minor version upgrade I thought "stuff that".

    Now I use a combination of GoldenCheetah, PowerAgent and Garmin Training Centre. They all have different strengths:

    GoldenCheetah
    - Has various metrics similar to NP/TSS (xPower, BikeScore, Daniels Points), and it's free. Currently running version 1.3rc3.
    - Good for locating power peaks within a session - click on one and it highlights it within the ride graph.
    - Crashes a lot, particularly when calculating critical power or splitting rides.

    PowerAgent
    - Great for getting stats on specific segments of ride data.
    - Supports names for rides, so I can locate specific races/sportives/training sessions quickly.

    Garmin Training Centre
    - Map integration makes it easy to identify specific efforts within a race when I've been too cooked to press the lap button (every single race so far).
    - Finally has support for power (how many years late?).
    - Smoothed graphs are pleasantly wiggly.

    Obviously I don't need all of this, but it's fun to play with, and I'm a geek.


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    #31
    velo.2010
    Registered Users Posts: 3,010 ✭✭✭velo.2010


    Oh apologies, thought that was you. White Limar helmet, black bike making your off the Gap back towards KIlbride!!

    Never mind, thats some going with your power. Couldnt afford the associated gear myself, might get to a gym with a bike-power readout.


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