Road to the Raid

ROK ON · 26-01-2010 10:06pm

Despite my bitching session after sundays spin, my legs actually felt really fresh on Monday.

Anyway took an extended commute home taking a few loops of the Phoenix park to make 20km.
Very easy tried to emulate spinning in a 39 ring by using 50/24 and 21.

Tuesday.
51km with 3 short climbs in Dublin foothills.
Blue Lamp pub.
Three rock entrance via turnoff from Blackglen rd.
Three rock entrance via Kellystown Lane.

The aim apart from climbing was a set of cadence drills.
1min 2min 3min seatedclimbing followed by standing climbing.

I have to say I find this tough tough tough.
While I can struggle my fat ass up all these climbs (slowly) while seated I do find it amazingly difficult to climb while standing for any length of time.
Spent about 1min standing up to Blue Lamp. When I got to carpark/lookout I needed an oxygen tent. HR was 186.
Tried again on first three rock climb but couldn't get over 1 minute standing before I had to sit in the saddle to regain some composure to make it up the final 10% ramp.
On the final three rock climb I decided to remain seated and opted to spin. I find this the easiest form of climbing to control my HR.

I guess that the more I try these drills the better I will get/easier they will come.

Anyway just after shower and sandwich. Reasonably satisfied.
Hop to get a flat 50km in tomorrow.
Ad they say in the pirates, "the beatings will continue until morale improves".

Raam · 26-01-2010 10:21pm

ROK ON wrote: »

I guess that the more I try these drills the better I will get/easier they will come.

You will improve, keep at it.

blorg · 26-01-2010 11:08pm

Generally seated spinning is probably more efficient anyway. I used find it very difficult to climb standing myself, until I started riding a fixie up mountains. Now I can do it for quite a while, like the whole Wicklow Gap standing sort of thing. But seated would still be more efficient, you want the standing really just to be able to attack in a race, short bursts sort of thing.

Anything the length of a climb in the Raid you would want to be seated 99+% and only using standing to get a bit of relief for your arse.

ROK ON · 26-01-2010 11:23pm

@Blorg. Completely agree. I think the idea is just to improve my strwngth/endurance on a climb.
For a climb of any distance regardless of gradient my first choice is to stay seater.

velopeloton · 26-01-2010 11:51pm

blorg wrote: »

Anything the length of a climb in the Raid you would want to be seated 99+% and only using standing to get a bit of relief for your arse.

Agree 100%. I try to ride seated as much as possible and maybe only stand on very steep ramps or hairpins, it gives relief to my lower back an area I had lots of difficulty with in the past.

From reading this I think your training is going great, and is ahead of what is essential, the Raid is not for another 8 months yet. There is always a danger of doing too much, especially in winter with crap weather, which can be more detrimental than not enough, ie, it is easier to recover from under training in winter than over training. You will enjoy the training more when the weather improves and it is consequently easier to do more.

Intervals are essential only if you are racing, they will help develop short bursts of speed and recovery.

3 hours on the flat at a medium to hard pace, but not a killer pace is more than enough for this time of year.

You did 20kmph average for 3:42 over the Healy pass twice, this is very good, don't be so hard on yourself. I love that climb it is my favourite in Ireland, did it in the Rás and the Rás Mumhan.

short circuit · 27-01-2010 12:04pm

@ROK ON ... during your drill when you stand up on a climb ... do you go to a higher gear ... or do you stay in the same as when you are sitting.

Also, what is the cadence when standing ..

lastly ... what sort of climb do you do this repeats on ... length, incline ...

ROK ON · 27-01-2010 12:34pm

@ShortC.
Thus far I take the following approach. If I am climbing in say 34/27 I would drop to 34/21 for the standing climb.
Cadence not entirely positive as it is dark and can't see the sensor reading on the cateye and the cadence sensor in garmin isn't working so don't have recording. However I counter 48-52 last night.
Climbs are 1-2km with gradient around 7,5 to 9% average.

ROK ON · 30-01-2010 4:59pm

210km for the week just ended.
Just under 80km today with 1000m of climbing. Weather was stunning. Blue skies, dry roads and no winds.
Had company from Lescol for the journey which made the time fly.
Thank you sir.

After last weeks ordeal today was fun. Cycling hasnt been fun for a while now. It is just amazing what a dry sunny day can do for the spirits.

Now some reviews.

Clif bars - tried two today on the trip. They are vile. Vile beyond belief. Who the f**k eats this **** for as a snack - you are sick sick puppies.
I usually eat Natures Valley Granola bars and High 5 yougurt and strawberry bar. Both are nice and work for me.
I will be selling a box of the Clifs if anyone is interested.
Tried strawberry flavour Clif Shot Blocks. Little tasty strawberry jellies cubes.
They were very nice - more shall be ordered.
Post cycle had a Torq Strawberry Cream recovery shake. Seemed to taste ok - will get back to ye as to what sort of impact it actually has.

Below are files for 2 of this weeks rides.

Hopefully more of the same next week. Hopefully its not too icy in Dublin from Mon to Wednesday.

http://ridewithgps.com/trips/14980
http://ridewithgps.com/trips/14979

Thanks for reading.
Criticism/advice appreciated.

Beasty · 30-01-2010 5:29pm

ROK ON wrote: »

.

Clif bars - tried two today on the trip. They are vile. Vile beyond belief. Who the f**k eats this **** for as a snack - you are sick sick puppies.
...
I will be selling a box of the Clifs if anyone is interested.

Great advert - I take it you will be paying someone to take them off your hands:)

lescol · 30-01-2010 5:59pm

He offered them to me......repeatedly!

Fabulous day for cycling, can't believe the figures for the day, it just went smoothly.

Must have counted as a Kerry Boards spin. So come on down to Kenmare, a great welcome from Mr and Mrs ROK ON and the kids! And Mr ROK ON senior who was visiting.

It is still early in the training program and so far things seem to be going OK, climbing speed is an issue but there's time to work on it. At some point I would put in hill repeats on shorter climbs with 100% effort, then on longer climbs intervals of hard and periods of recovery. As you get used to them you'll be able to maintain longer periods of hard effort on the long climbs to come. Plenty of easy recovery rides in between. Not every ride should hurt.

Thanks again for the company.

ROK ON · 30-01-2010 7:23pm

You can still have the Clifs Lescol.

Thanks for the spin. I completely take your point on climbing speed.
For past two weeks I have been heading out on a Tuesday nights to do some repeats (not enough) on some short but very sharp climbs.

Hopefully several months of this will enable a better ability overall. I am under no illusions that as well as losing weight, one also needs to be as strong as one can be while climbing, if I am going to succeed in my goals.
Cheers.

lescol · 30-01-2010 11:15pm

Guess it's a case of avoiding hitting a plateau in the training, still, very early days. With more miles, long evenings and a bit of warm weather things will improve. Talking to myself as well:D

Raam · 31-01-2010 2:01pm

ROK ON wrote: »

Clif bars - tried two today on the trip. They are vile. Vile beyond belief. Who the f**k eats this **** for as a snack - you are sick sick puppies.

Haha! What flavour did you try?

ROK ON · 06-02-2010 3:30pm

190km this week.
Recovery ride Monday.
60km during the week.
30km Wed, but no energy due to flu symptoms. Also buckled wheel.
Was supposed to do hill repeats and cadence drills but frlt dire - freezing cold, high temp and pains everywhere.
Thursday - bed
Friday fine
Today beautiful weather, blue skies. No wind. Ideal cycling weather.
Wanted to try some hill climbing cadence drills, so went over and back to Glengariff from Kenmare twice, taking in 4 ascents of the Caha Pass tunnels. (6km at 4.5%). Given the shallowness of the climb, I used 39/21 and 39/23 and spun most of the way. I am trying to utilise the 39 ring climbing as much as possible. I am operating on the theory that if I can spin for long enough on climbs up to 6% in the 39 ring, then on the much longer climbs in the Pyrenees I will be able to replicate on either the 34 ring or 30 ring (with 27 on the back casette) depending on whether I bring the bike with compact or triple. I try as much as possible to use the granny ring on sustained periods of raod with a greater than 7% gardient.
Anyway, it seems as if on these shallow enough climbs that I am not grinding on the 39 ring. so that is a start.

On two of the ascents tried 2*3 standing cadence drills. Still tough but making some headway.
However as a result, seated cadence climbing defintely feels much better and am making headway, so I can see some improvement.

Anyway 80km and 1200m of climbing. Feeling pretty good.
Rest week next week. (Not that any of the last four weeks were at an outrageous level of effort). I will enjoy the rest.

http://ridewithgps.com/trips/15868

ROK ON · 12-02-2010 3:35pm

Thus far this week I have managed 140km on 3 commutes/training spins as commutes.
50km Monday incl hill cadence exercises up to Blue Light pub. Felt stronger than I ever have climbing. Got home with a lot in the tank.
Tuesday; 45km. Laps of Park before and after work. Concentrated on seated cadence sprints followed by recovery.
Wed + Thur Morning: Combined total of 40km commute and laps of park. Thur morning at 6am felt knackered, so just went into work rather than pused it.

Inexplicably the weight is still coming off (90.3kg now). I say inexplicably as I have been gorgiong on chocolate most days as well as having a good breakfast and dinner.

Just cleaned and lubed bike.
Tomorrow I am hoping that I have the legs/spirit for 6 ascents of Healy pass. 75km in total, with 32.5km of climbings for total ascent of 1700m.
It would be nice to think that I could do this in 3.5hours, but 4 maybe more realistic for where my climbing is. Cant really make up the time on the descents as (1) one of the descents from Healy Pass is very technical with a lot of short drops to hairpins and (2) the roads are in a pretty poor state.

Thats the plan anyway. While my training isnt hardcore or anything, I am seeing benefits. After what I would have described as a tough but enjoyable session last Saturday my legs felt pretty fresh Saturday evening.
Hopefully with Lent coming up I can know the chocolate out of the diet temporarily and drop to 82-84kg bu end of April.

All going well plan hill repeats tomorrow then a few 100-125km flatter spins in the next few weekends.
Mid March I will be aiming for two back to back spins of 75km and 150 km on two different weekends. If I can get to mid March and accomplish that, I will be pretty pleased as to the direction of my training and efforts thus far.

ROK ON · 13-02-2010 3:27pm

http://ridewithgps.com/trips/16499

Hoped to do 6, did 5 for just under 60km, in a bit over 3hours.
Climbing getting better all the time. Not fast but better.
Descending on sharp hairpins close together is a skill that I do not have yet. In Wicklow I can usually get 80km on descents and average close to 50km.
In Kerry I cant get anywhere near these numbers. That will also have to get better.

Anyway, I like this hill repeat nonsense. I will aim for two of these type of sessions a month and two longer flatter spins.

DirkVoodoo · 13-02-2010 4:34pm

ROK ON wrote: »

Inexplicably the weight is still coming off (90.3kg now). I say inexplicably as I have been gorgiong on chocolate most days as well as having a good breakfast and dinner.

You are turning into a proper climber, eat all you want when you want and still you either lose weight or stay the same. Abrakebabra ftw!

Either that or you have worms

lescol · 14-02-2010 12:29am

Fair play, I'm not sure I could look at the same stretch of road 5 times in quick succession, so well done.

ROK ON · 19-02-2010 1:00pm

Thus far this week (resty type of week) managed 110km with extended commutes and Lance laps plus 1.5 ascents of 3 Rock.
Took three Rock from the Ticknock side, whic I think is significantly tougher in terms of gradient than Kellystown Road in that there is no relief in the road. I blew up badly on the ramp leading up to the entrance to the forest. I so wanted to get off the bike - but just tried to control my breathing and concentrate on revolving those pedals. HR was 189 and I was dying. Had a Chorizo pizza for lunch which was a bad idea climbing 5 hours later in that I could still taste the chorizo (which I love, but not while climbing). Anyway, got into the forest and things calmed down a little, but I was in such physical pain that I could not attempt hill cadence drills. This just became a battle of willpower and try to get to the top - which I did.
Anyway at the top was almost attacked by two dogs, but owner got control of them. Waited for him to scarper, before I descended down to the gate and climbed again. This time was better, HR was much more controlled.

Weightlosss is progressing and I know weigh in at 89.2kg. I was 95kg on Dec 16. Hopefully lose another 5kgs by end of April. Still managed a lot of chocolate this week. Creme Egg season is hard for me. But 1 a day is better than 6 a day (which is what I used to eat fpr about the last 15 years).

My big issue is that despite gradual weight loss over a two year plus period, I am not seeing any great benefit on very steep climbs.
On climbs up to say 5-6% I have noticed huge improvements. On climbs of a sustained 8% plus, say Three Rock, Cruagh, Priests Leap - I have not noticed any real improvement This will be an issue in the Pyrenees so it is something that I need to get control over simple as that. When I say no improvement it is slightly cheeky in that when I was heavier I used to dismount to catch my breath, whereas now I just suffer on - but by Christ is it suffering.

With snow and ice down in Kerry I am not sure how this weekend will pan out. I am hoping for a fast paced flat spin out and back to Caherdaniel (100km return), but will wait to see what weather is like tomorrow before I make a decision on the spin. May be a shorter spin, or just head to the gym and spend an hour on the bike thing that they have.

Now a final issue that I need some help with. I have some underlying health issues that have arisen. They may or may not be related to either diabetes or prostate issues. Blood and urines tests have been taken and am awaiting results. My doctor claims that I am exhausted and not getting enough sleep and I am simply over hydrating. I would tend to drink about 3-5L of fluid (mainly water) per day particularly when cycling. I feel I need this. But my body is not able to consume it. Is there anyway to hydrate without massive injection of fluid? On a long cycle I would usually take an electrolyte in my water.

Also when I train hard in the evening, I simply cant get to sleep at all. On Tuesday, after 50km and three rock I got back at 8.30pm. Sandwich, soup, shower, phoned home, TV/Unwind, bed at 11pm. Still awake at 4.

While being awake at 4 was excessive, this is actually a regular occurance after night time training. I never need much sleep, but would like to get an average of 5-6hours undisturbed. I am finding this almost impossible on the evenings that I train.

This is an issue, in that I have to train at night because I start work at 7am in the morning. Training in the morning would mean getting up at about 3.30am - that is not a runner.

Does anyone else have problems in winding down after training n the evening, and getting to sleep. Let me be clear, I was tired.

Thanks for reading.

Raam · 19-02-2010 1:09pm

After evening races I am awake for ages, wired. Training in the evening isn't for everyone.

Sounds to me like you are making good progress.

Lumen · 19-02-2010 1:30pm

ROK ON wrote: »

My big issue is that despite gradual weight loss over a two year plus period, I am not seeing any great benefit on very steep climbs. On climbs up to say 5-6% I have noticed huge improvements. On climbs of a sustained 8% plus, say Three Rock, Cruagh, Priests Leap - I have not noticed any real improvement This will be an issue in the Pyrenees so it is something that I need to get control over simple as that. When I say no improvement it is slightly cheeky in that when I was heavier I used to dismount to catch my breath, whereas now I just suffer on - but by Christ is it suffering.

I would guess that...

On steady climbs you have the gearing and power/weight to climb at a sustainable rate.

On steeper climbs you are forced (by gearing and/or pride) to climb at an unsustainable rate.

This will probably fix itself as the power/weight improves, but you might need to reconsider your gearing for the event - HTFU isn't going to help.

ROK ON · 19-02-2010 1:43pm

On the shallower climbs I am using 39/25 at most but mainly 39/23 and 21.
In Dublin on the steep climbs I will be using 34/27.

In the Pyrenees I have no shame - I will be using 30/27 . Especialy after reading an interview with Hincapie and David Millar the other day when they were saying that they train on a 34/27 all the time. They recounted a story that Paul Kimmage told them that when he raced they used 44/19 in the montains.

short circuit · 19-02-2010 1:53pm

3 to 5 lts would be too high unless you are training in very hot weather. There has been some research which says that the usual 2lts recommended might be overkill ... though I don't remember where I read it ..

Also, if you have to pee on the ride, this does not mean that you are over hyrated .. it could also be a sign that your body is unable to absorb everything you drink.

In winter, I find that anything above 300-400ml in an hour is overkill unless I am killing myself on the bike and sweating buckets. In summer, I would go upto 500ml per hour. The rest of the time, I probably get through about 100 to 150ml every hour or so ... unless I am asleep.

As far training in the evening, its recommended not to train for atleast 2 to 3 hours before bed time. But I found that any day when I killed myself on the commute home, I couldn't sleep ... so I changed to doing any training on the way in after a bit of warm up. And on the way home, I just spin home. It might be worthwhile trying to fit in your training in the mornings .. if you can. Even 5-6hrs per day sounds far less for someone doing the amount of training you are.

Best of luck with the results. Nice training log. And inspiring as well ... though my inertia is quite high and it will take me some time to do something about the inspiration.

Let me know if you plan any mid-week morning training ... once we get rid of the snow/frost etc ... and I am back from holidays. I will join you if I can.

MadHatter · 19-02-2010 1:55pm

ROK ON wrote: »

My doctor claims that I am exhausted and not getting enough sleep and I am simply over hydrating. I would tend to drink about 3-5L of fluid (mainly water) per day particularly when cycling. I feel I need this. But my body is not able to consume it. Is there anyway to hydrate without massive injection of fluid? On a long cycle I would usually take an electrolyte in my water.

Also when I train hard in the evening, I simply cant get to sleep at all. On Tuesday, after 50km and three rock I got back at 8.30pm. Sandwich, soup, shower, phoned home, TV/Unwind, bed at 11pm. Still awake at 4.

Obviously, I'm not a medical expert, but it could simply be overtraining. Friel's book has a list of overtraining symptoms as follows

Behavioral: Lethargy; Poor concentration; Sleep pattern changes; Irritability; Decreased libido; Clumsiness; Increased Thirst; Sluggishness; Craving for sugar
Physical: Reduced performance; Weight change; Morning heart rate change; Muscle soreness; Swollen lymph glands; Diarrhea; Injury; Infection; Amenorrhea; Decreased exercise heart rate; Slow-healing cuts

From your own posts the 3 in bold sound like they could be true, but only you can confirm this yourself. You might see if any of the others match.

Re hydration, I'm currently reading Anita Bean's book on nutrition and she disagrees with the idea that we need to keep drinking water regulary (ie. the idea that if you're thirsty you're are already dehyrated) and that we should drink when thirsty. So you could try cutting down on the water you drink when not on the bike, and then drink moderate but sufficient amounts when on the bike. You may want to switch to something containing salts/electrolytes like Nuun as a replacement for plain water when on the bike, that way you can reduce the quantity you need to drink.

Lumen · 19-02-2010 1:58pm

short circuit wrote: »

As far training in the evening, its recommended not to train for atleast 2 to 3 hours before bed time.

I often turbo immediately before sleeping, maybe 30 minutes or so. I do feel wired for a few minutes, but then the tiredness kicks in. Shower, food, TV, book.

Maybe you (ROK ON) need to starting drinking beer for post-spin recovery.

ROK ON · 19-02-2010 2:00pm

short circuit wrote: »

Let me know if you plan any mid-week morning training ... once we get rid of the snow/frost etc ... and I am back from holidays. I will join you if I can.

Cheers - have always consumed a lot of water, but am possibly overdoing it. Never slept a lot, but possibly underdoing it.

Once the clocks go back I will aim for a reasonable 2-3 hours on either Tues or Wed. Kildare or Wicklow. You still D15?

BTW were you on a a steel bike on the canal the week before last (Surly or Kona IIRC). We were pegging it down the canal towrd the Luas stop at Suir Road, when I stopped at lights and you/or some other bloke dressed in black, took a sneaky left turn to come out ahead of me at the lights.

niceonetom · 19-02-2010 2:00pm

ROK ON wrote: »

Weightlosss is progressing and I know weigh in at 89.2kg. I was 95kg on Dec 16. Hopefully lose another 5kgs by end of April. Still managed a lot of chocolate this week. Creme Egg season is hard for me. But 1 a day is better than 6 a day (which is what I used to eat fpr about the last 15 years).

My big issue is that despite gradual weight loss over a two year plus period, I am not seeing any great benefit on very steep climbs.
On climbs up to say 5-6% I have noticed huge improvements. On climbs of a sustained 8% plus, say Three Rock, Cruagh, Priests Leap - I have not noticed any real improvement This will be an issue in the Pyrenees so it is something that I need to get control over simple as that. When I say no improvement it is slightly cheeky in that when I was heavier I used to dismount to catch my breath, whereas now I just suffer on - but by Christ is it suffering.

My totally inexpert contribution:

I'm amazed at the weight loss - amazing results. Are you sure that you haven't been losing too much for too long a period without a break? I'd be worried that your body might getting run down by spending so many consecutive weeks in calorie debt. Any illness brought on by over-training/under-eating/under-sleeping will do a lot more damage than a week of relaxing and indulgence to allow your body to recoup a bit.

On the weight/climbing issue. I'd be surprised if you aren't actually significantly quicker up any gradient than you were 20kgs ago. You may notice it more on the less steep ones which favour your power-to-weight profile but the results would show across the board. It's not just about your time from bottom to top either, it's about economy too, and you'll be a lot more economical now than you were - essential for your big targets.

8%+ will never really feel easy, but as the gradient increases the dividends for weight loss go up too - speed goes down so a larger proportion of your power is fighting gravity and wind resistance matters very little. This is why I can beat many lighter riders on inclines of say, 5 - 7% but I'm left for dead when it really goes up (Dirk and Lumen are simply better suited to steep stuff right now for instance). The tipping point where that changeover happens moves with my weight in my experience.

It's worth emphasising that irish climbs of 8% are short, and the temptation may be to bully your way up them in a fog of pain and determination. THIS WILL NOT WORK ON A PYRENE so I hope you're giving pacing some thought. I would be looking at the longest climb you will be tackling this trip and thinking about the right heartrate you should be be sustaining for its length, then spending as much time at that heartrate (contiguously, not cumulatively) without regards to terrain. Counter intuitively this might mean flat spins as that makes it easier to avoid any unwanted recovery sections (descents). Some time spent climbing at that target heartrate would be good practice too, though you might not feel like you're working hard enough.

Sorry if I'm repeating stuff you already know or that's been said before.

Lumen · 19-02-2010 2:10pm

niceonetom wrote: »

Counter intuitively this might mean flat spins as that makes it easier to avoid any unwanted recovery sections (descents). Some time spent climbing at that target heartrate would be good practice too, though you might not feel like you're working hard enough.

Yes, low-cadence flat spins are better training for hills than hills, particularly if you're planning on doing a lot of seated climbing. I've said this before, to much mockery (from Raam as I recall, who seems unaffected by gravity).

ROK ON · 19-02-2010 2:11pm

niceonetom wrote: »

It's worth emphasising that irish climbs of 8% are short, and the temptation may be to bully your way up them in a fog of pain and determination. THIS WILL NOT WORK ON A PYRENE so I hope you're giving pacing some thought. I would be looking at the longest climb you will be tackling this trip and thinking about the right heartrate you should be be sustaining for its length, then spending as much time at that heartrate (contiguously, not cumulatively) without regards to terrain. Counter intuitively this might mean flat spins as that makes it easier to avoid any unwanted recovery sections (descents). Some time spent climbing at that target heartrate would be good practice too, though you might not feel like you're working hard enough.

Makes sense. IIRC, Paddy at VeloPeleton (doing the Raid suported with him) said as much. Working up to spending time in the saddle day after day at a sustainbale pace is pretty important. I tried hill repeats, which I enjoy, but (25mins of climbing folowed by 10mins descending )* 5 is obviously not the same as 125minutes of climbing.

On the diet, I keep a food diary, and I am not going nuts. For example I still have chocolate every day. But my diet has changed to a very carb rich diet (risotto, paela, spicy prawns/fish and rice etc). Sometimes have eggs and cheese. Most days its carbs and soup, with small amounts of protein and a lot of fruit. Some chocolate.
Always have a roast at the weekend, but cant recall the last steak I had.
I had a beer 3weeks ago when a mate was down. But yeah, I probably need to live a little. I will resolve to have more beer, or maybe a rum and coke. I mean if Tom Boonen can have a coke and a smile so can I.

short circuit · 19-02-2010 2:12pm

ROK ON wrote: »

Once the clocks go back I will aim for a reasonable 2-3 hours on either Tues or Wed. Kildare or Wicklow. You still D15?

Yes ... let's try to start something by 2nd week in March ... 6AM start should give us a couple of hours before work time.

BTW were you on a a steel bike on the canal the week before last (Surly or Kona IIRC). We were pegging it down the canal towrd the Luas stop at Suir Road, when I stopped at lights and you/or some other bloke dressed in black, took a sneaky left turn to come out ahead of me at the lights

Guilty as charged. May be I should post this on Boardsie sightings. Didn't recognise you at all .. you've lost a lot of weight since I last saw you. And ffs, I was planning on taking an easy spin home before you overtook me ... thanks for the long tow along the canal .. you were going pretty quick.

And before anyone criticizes, I did not break lights to win a commute race, I just look a slip road which brought me to the same set of lights in the direction where the lights were green ...

... the aim was to give me a few mins to regain my breath before ROK_ON showed up again. But luckily I got 3 more sets of green and I got into the phoenix park before ROK_ON could catch me. I suppose you didn't have the same luck. I returned to my easy ride once you didn't show up in the park.

ROK ON · 19-02-2010 2:13pm

Lumen wrote: »

Yes, low-cadence flat spins are better training for hills than hills, particularly if you're planning on doing a lot of seated climbing. I've said this before, to much mockery (from Raam as I recall, who seems unaffected by gravity).

I dont necessarily disagree physiologically, as I cannot disprove you. However psyscholgically the best training for getting to the top of a hill, is to get to the top of the hill. Once it can be done once, it can always be done again and improved upon.

ROK ON · 19-02-2010 2:15pm

short circuit wrote: »

. . and I got into the phoenix park before ROK_ON could catch me. I suppose you didn't have the same luck. I returned to my easy ride once you didn't show up in the park.

I got egged by scumbags in the park that night.

short circuit · 19-02-2010 2:19pm

ROK ON wrote: »

I got egged by scumbags in the park that night.

Aah .. feck ... where was this ... I came up the Khyber road unmolested ... may be they were just setting up then.

Just saw the other thread where you said the Khyber .... so looks like I just escaped. That stretch from the gate to the bollards is dark enough for an ambush and you can't even get their registration numbers.

niceonetom · 19-02-2010 2:26pm

ROK ON wrote: »

...the best training for getting to the top of a hill, is to get to the top of the hill.

but it's not necessarily the best training to get to the top of a mountain. Seriously, in my experience of long climbs (anything over 1000m gain really) it's often best to forget there is a top and just try to come to terms with the possibility that you may well spend the rest of your existence blankly gaping at your own front wheel as you turn your gear. Forever.

What time was the egging? I'm a bit concerned...

ROK ON · 19-02-2010 2:31pm

niceonetom wrote: »

but it's not necessarily the best training to get to the top of a mountain. Seriously, in my experience of long climbs (anything over 1000m gain really) it's often best to forget there is a top and just try to come to terms with the possibility that you may well spend the rest of your existence blankly gaping at your own front wheel as you turn your gear. Forever.

What time was the egging? I'm a bit concerned...

Makes sense. However on climbs where I am suffering and the road is straight, I just close my eyes so I dont have to stare at the wheel. I know what you are getting at however. I guess the key is to get a rhythm that is hopefully sustainable even though it is painful and stay there and avoid blowing up. Sounds easy IN THEORY.

Egging - Kyber Pass I would have thought after 7pm, but before 8.30pm as I was home by then.

Chips Lovell · 19-02-2010 2:38pm

Re: your sleep problem. Booze and barbituates should sort you out.

mloc123 · 19-02-2010 2:38pm

ROK ON wrote: »

But my diet has changed to a very carb rich diet (risotto, paela, spicy prawns/fish and rice etc). Sometimes have eggs and cheese. Most days its carbs and soup, with small amounts of protein and a lot of fruit.

Protein is very important when on a defecit, IMO... will help maintain muscle which is very easy to lose when trying to drop weight.

Lumen · 19-02-2010 3:15pm

el tonto wrote: »

Re: your sleep problem. Booze and barbituates should sort you out.

I have used Night Nurse to get an early night after a particularly hard spin when I feel on the edge of traing-induced illness. I should probably check the UCI list (or ask RobFowl) in case my imminent explosion on to the club racing scene is cut short by doping allegations.

Raam · 19-02-2010 3:20pm

Lumen wrote: »

Yes, low-cadence flat spins are better training for hills than hills, particularly if you're planning on doing a lot of seated climbing. I've said this before, to much mockery (from Raam as I recall, who seems unaffected by gravity).

I'm sure it's no harm to supplement any hill work with other forms of training on the bike.

Actually, any studies done on this?
For instance, two people of similar physiological capabilities, both training for a sustained hill climb the likes of which cannot be found in, say, Ireland. One trains on Ireland's hills and the other does low cadence on the flat.

Someone please complete this study and settle it for us.

Lumen · 19-02-2010 3:46pm

Raam wrote: »

Someone please complete this study and settle it for us.

When I eventually get around to doing the Marmotte, I'll give you one half of the picture. In fact, I might train for it almost exclusively on the turbo.

It is often asserted that lactate threshold is the most consistent predictor of performance in endurance events, and the most effective way to raise your threshold is through lots of sweet spot training.

If the hills help you achieve that, great.

However, it's not all about the numbers, and training should be fun too. I'd rather do hill repeats or long spins in Wicklow than endless flat interval work on the featureless backroads of Meath.

blorg · 19-02-2010 3:53pm

I suspect like Lumen you are overdoing it at the start of the 8% climbs. Do you find your speed dropping or it getting more difficult as you go up? For a long climb I will start easy and increase effort as I go up. In the Alps/Pyrenees I have often been passed at the bottom by people I catch later and sail past. They generally look in severe difficulty at that point. Exact same principle with a time trial, you start slow and let the pain come to you rather than go looking for it. Key difference is you should be going a lot easier up the hills than you would go in a time trial. There is 4.5 days of it after all.

8%+ can be easier than cycling on the flat if you only go slow enough. I found the Solour/Aubisque very easy even with 20kg of luggage, easier than the ones I went up unloaded.

Tom's tip about forgetting there is a top at all is a very good one. Forces you to ride sustainably.

Raam · 19-02-2010 4:04pm

Actually, I just remembered that my bro did the vast majority of his training for the WW200 on his turbo having never done anything remotely like the hills in Wicklow before. He's no slouch.

niceonetom · 19-02-2010 4:14pm

Lumen wrote: »

When I eventually get around to doing the Marmotte, I'll give you one half of the picture. In fact, I might train for it almost exclusively on the turbo.

It is often asserted that lactate threshold is the most consistent predictor of performance in endurance events, and the most effective way to raise your threshold is through lots of sweet spot training.

If the hills help you achieve that, great.

However, it's not all about the numbers, and training should be fun too. I'd rather do hill repeats or long spins in Wicklow than endless flat interval work on the featureless backroads of Meath.

Incongruities emboldened!

I never trust a graph with arbitrary units...

The sweet-spot thing is something I've come around to - and I think it gets results quite quickly, but I counter your tip with specificity in this game of Joe Freil top-trumps. It is certainly important to train to raise threshold power but economy is crucial for long days and long climbs, and that means doing what you will be doing on the day.

EDIT: Also, 8 of the first 14 men to win on Alpe D'Huez were Dutch. Make of that what you will.

ROK ON · 19-02-2010 4:35pm

Tom. Re the Dutch. IIRC Gert Jan Thuinesse was built like a centre forward but conqured many climbs.
However he took many many drugs. Either him or Rooks. When they rode with Kelly at PDM the bus was known as the pharmacy.

niceonetom · 19-02-2010 4:47pm

Well, I think know what you've got to do then.

Chips Lovell · 19-02-2010 5:40pm

niceonetom wrote: »

Well, I think know what you've got to do then.

Steal Sean Kelly's bus?

ROK ON · 20-02-2010 4:38pm

60km done today in about 2h20m.
Weekly total - 165km.

Planned longer today but two things:
(1) Couldnt leave until midday due to frost and had to be back by 2.30pm.
(2) Have what I suspect is a kidney condition. In mucho pain, agony actually. Felt awful coming off the bike, but strangely enough good on the bike.
Awaiting medical test results before making a decision, but in short term, training has to be reduced for time being due to heavy workload and family committments.

Anyway - spent 40km of the 60km spinning furiously in the 39 ring.
Still have not managed a century this year - that needs to change.

Goals for next four weeks
(1) sort out medical issues.
(2) Do a few 100kmers if at all possible. Possible in the sense of time issues and general well being at the moment. Pretty much exhausted to be honest. Only peace and quiet I get is actually on the bike, or on night out with the missus.
(3) Do more hill repeats - strangely satisfying in a brutally punishing type of way.
(4) If health issues clear up the 2*310 km rides on week 2 and week 3 in March. (310km over 2 days, not in one day).
(5) Spend a week in London for work and gorging myself in all the culinary delights that London has to offer for the week. I am staying in Park Lane, so I must say I am looking forward to this trip. However the rewards will only be justifiable should my pain subside and serious bloody training resumes over the next 4 weeks.

http://ridewithgps.com/trips/17771
http://ridewithgps.com/trips/17772

Lumen · 20-02-2010 6:32pm

Get well soon. Had a kidney stone around Christmas '08, I feel your pain.

Have you been here? Top Szechuan grub, IIRC.

Been down to that Thai place down Baggot St you recommended, very good.

ROK ON · 21-02-2010 4:19pm

Lumen wrote: »

Have you been here? Top Szechuan grub, IIRC.

Thanks. One of my fave pubs The Toucan is close by. Hope to try it. Love Sichuan cooking.

ROK ON · 26-02-2010 8:51pm

145km done this week, hoping tomorrow or Sunday brings that to 230km plus for the week.
May not sound like a lot to some people, but I am pretty contented given family and work committments. At present there I am training all that I can practically. However I do feel stronger on the bike, if no faster.
1*50km including 3 hill repeats. (Blue lamp and onto top of Barnaculla, plus Three Rock *2 to last gate (ice beyond so no further)).

Flat 60km spin to saggart and back. reasonably fast, Avg speed 25km but impacted by traffic lights early on. Reckon median speed around 30km. Fast for me. 2 sets of high cadence seated drills (circa 20mins with HR around 160+, followed by recovery).

Couple of commutes.

Felt great on both training runs. One small concern is that despite weight loss my time up Three Rock (17mins to last gate) is actually no faster than my times for the Boards time trial up last october. I have to push myself to get up, and I know that I can. However I thought that I would be faster. Keep trying I guess.

Tomorrow I am planning circa 90km loop, with maybe 1400m of ascent. One easy long climb (drag), One 6km killer at 8% and two 5km climbs at 4-5%. Borlin Valley, Priests Leap if the road is ok, then a few repeats on Caha Pass Tunnels. All on the Cork and Kerry mountains.

Had some health issues, and blood tests have seemed to rule a few things out that are a relief. Doc reckons that I have been overhydrating however, so I should watch that.

On the blood tests, my Haematocrit came back at 0.497. That would seem high - why does not not translate into better ability on the bike. Is it because I is black fat? Does haematocrit actually mean anything. Does it vary too much to be useful.

No weight loss this week. Ate like a pig. December showed a lot of discipline, as did January. While I have lost some weight in February, I have not realy followed my diet. March needs to refocus, as I so much want to get another 6kg gone by end of April.

Road to the Raid

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