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"Why I did not report my rapist"
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TerrorFirmer wrote: »I'm surprised and a little disappointed at the lack of recognition for the complexities of this particular case beyond a simple 'no means no, ergo, it was rape'.
She decided to kiss him rather than have, by her own admittance, an awkward conversation to explain she wasn't that into him. She continued kissing him as he attempted to touch her, said no to being undressed but relented after persistance - while continuing to be intimate with him throughout, and this is the crucial part.
She then decided to have sex because it was easier than saying no or having that aforementioned conversation. By her own admittance, at no point did she stop kissing him even as he undressed her.
I'm not saying he wasn't pushy but in my opinion, labeling this as a clear cut case of rape is a horrifying and ill-informed precedent.
Contextually, I was also apparently raped last week, my girlfriend wanted us to have sex, I said I wasn't in the mood - and meant it - she persisted - eventually we ended up having mutually enjoyable sex after I was enticed into the idea, mentally and physically.
In fact, if no always means no with zero regard for context, the capacity of adults to change their minds and the complexities of the different types of nos (and lets be honest here as adults, to deny that different types of no's do not exist within relationships, be they long term, casual or fleeting is frankly delusional) then not only have I been raped by virtually every girlfriend I've ever had at some stage, I also must confront the reality that I too am a rapist.
Is to too late to both hand myself into Gardai, and also have my list of ex-girlfriends arrested for these sickening historical crimes and hauled through the courts to pursue the lengthy custodial sentences they deserve?
After all, no means no, doesn't it? A poster above believes the specifics of this particular (and peculiar) case can be boiled that to repeated that statement ad nauseam.
I also very much do not like that disagreement with her assessment of the situation, here on boards and on her blog, is being bandied by her as proof of 'rape culture' in Ireland.
Apparently by not being in agreement with her feeling that she was raped makes us de-facto advocates of rape and misogyny.
There's also a confusing element where she implies that her subsequent promiscuity was as a result of this alleged rape. Overall, the whole thing smacks of attention seeking, square-peg-round-hole retrospective and convenient labeling of regretted events in the past to suit an agenda, be it feminist, attention seeking, or whatever.
It's the done tactic from a certain type of people in society who are importing a brand of identity politics right from the states.
Hence why I was alarmed to see an example of a US incident used in an Irish thread, at least make an attempt to plagiarise the narrative than a direct copy and paste.0 -
She said no, and he didn't stop +neither did she stop and continued kissing etc
She said no, and he didn't stop.+neither did she stop and continued kissing etc
She said no, and he didn't stop.+neither did she stop and continued kissing etc
She stopped saying no, because he wouldn't stop. because she thought it was easier than rejecting him
Fixed your post0 -
Ah Rosemary if you're reading this, well done. No he did not have the right to have sex with you, and yes it was rape.
I had a similiar experience to you, I thought 'was it rape -I knew him', I , 'can I put him in jail - it will ruin his and his families lives'. I didn't report it but I was a shell of my former self. There is no psychological pain like rape. You are vandalised in such a deep way. Please dont feel like it was your fault.
After numerous counsellors couldnt get through to me that it wasn't my fault and I attempted suicide, I finally got the help I needed. They linked me up with a counsellor at the rape crisis centre who had been raped herself and she finally got through to me. That's what I would like to say to you and other women on this thread: your rapjst is often someone you know, you can heal, get a counsellor who has been through it herself. Thanks for sharing your message Rsemary. I hope seeing that you have done some good will counteract the negativity on here, when you read this.0 -
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Ah here IBC, personal responsibility? Are you nuts? Apparently according to some of these vocal "feminists" personal responsibility is only ever in the man's hands. That and the woman=victim worldview. They reduce women to the state of adolescents, not adults. That so called feminists miss the truly staggering levels of irony in this thinking beggars belief. Or maybe not. "I can do what I like and take or face no responsibility" is actually a powerful position.ibarelycare wrote: »There has to be a sense of personal responsibility there.
Crazy to think the Suffragettes campaigned for women to be tried and even hanged in capital cases, just like men. They were looking for actual equality even when it didn't suit. Their granddaughters look for special treatment on the basis of their gender. Unreal.
Though it has worked. Western women, particularly white middle class women like this "writer" and her fellow attention seekers are pretty much the most protected demographic in society. Compared to their brothers, they will on average live longer, be better educated, be better paid and will have far more support, both socially and in the law. "Patriarchal" society? Get off the stage.Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.
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midlandsmissus wrote: »Ah Rosemary if you're reading this, well done. No he did not have the right to have sex with you, and yes it was rape.
I had a similiar experience to you, I thought 'was it rape -I knew him', I , 'can I put him in jail - it will ruin his and his families lives'. I didn't report it but I was a shell of my former self. There is no psychological pain like rape. You are vandalised in such a deep way. Please dont feel like it was your fault.
After numerous counsellors couldnt get through to me that it wasn't my fault and I attempted suicide, I finally got the help I needed. They linked me up with a counsellor at the rape crisis centre who had been raped herself and she finally got through to me. That's what I would like to say to you and other women on this thread: your rapjst is often someone you know, you can heal, get a counsellor who has been through it herself. Thanks for sharing your message Rsemary. I hope seeing that you have done some good will counteract the negativity on here, when you read this.
Did you report it after the fact ? If it had such an impact on your life surely you would be looking for justice.
If not you definitely should and let the authorities deal with him.0 -
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Well a few people here have said online that they were raped. I have said it in other threads. I understand that we do with anonymity but many people wanting to make a difference have spoken out about their experience despite being too scared to report it at the time. Some people have gone to therapy and felt empowered afterwards in a way they never felt previously. There are no right or wrong ways to act as someone who has been raped. Saying "if it was actually rape she would have done x y and z" or "rape victims don't do this" is a slippery slope tbh. You may be right in your analysis of this particular woman and her story but there are many ways in which people deal with trauma and speaking in absolutes about how a rape victim would and wouldn't/should and shouldn't behave is not really fair because we are all different.
Read up on Jordan Peterson or the psychology of trauma in general. People think trauma is a bigger version of sadness/pain; that you acknowledge and move on with. It isn't. Your brain processes it in a completely different way. Overwhelmingly, for the vast majority of cases/neurological evidence this is actually what happens. When people realize these real feelings/trauma say, through therapy, that's where your mental breakdowns come from.
The shock of a traumatic event is so strong that it can lead to your own death, so your brain will cut corners to avoid this outcome.
Memory loss.
Stockholm syndrome.
New personalities.
Memory change.
A subconscious desire to replicate the event in order to feel in control; that this time will be different.
Someone who has been abused will often not even know they've been abused. If they do tell you, (brain tries to forego it as much as possible, so you, even if you've processed it, will avoid bringing it up as much as possible), it will be because they love you enough to face up to the consequences; they really value you.
It will be after ten pints of drink.
It will be after knowing them for a long time, and you're alone with them.
People process it differently (Milo loving his abuser, someone else forgets it), but it comes down to roughly the same thing:
I wasn't abused and it didn't happen.0 -
TerrorFirmer wrote: »I'm surprised and a little disappointed at the lack of recognition for the complexities of this particular case beyond a simple 'no means no, ergo, it was rape'.
She decided to kiss him rather than have, by her own admittance, an awkward conversation to explain she wasn't that into him. She continued kissing him as he attempted to touch her, said no to being undressed but relented after persistance - while continuing to be intimate with him throughout, and this is the crucial part.
She then decided to have sex because it was easier than saying no or having that aforementioned conversation. By her own admittance, at no point did she stop kissing him even as he undressed her.
I'm not saying he wasn't pushy but in my opinion, labeling this as a clear cut case of rape is a horrifying and ill-informed precedent.
Contextually, I was also apparently raped last week, my girlfriend wanted us to have sex, I said I wasn't in the mood - and meant it - she persisted - eventually we ended up having mutually enjoyable sex after I was enticed into the idea, mentally and physically.
In fact, if no always means no with zero regard for context, the capacity of adults to change their minds and the complexities of the different types of nos (and lets be honest here as adults, to deny that different types of no's do exist within relationships, be they long term, casual or fleeting is frankly delusional) then not only have I been raped by virtually every girlfriend I've ever had at some stage, I also must confront the reality that I too am a rapist.
Is to too late to both hand myself into Gardai, and also have my list of ex-girlfriends arrested for these sickening historical crimes and hauled through the courts to pursue the lengthy custodial sentences they deserve?
After all, no means no, doesn't it? A poster above believes the specifics of this particular (and peculiar) case can be boiled that to repeated that statement ad nauseam.
I also very much do not like that disagreement with her assessment of the situation, here on boards and on her blog, is being bandied by her as proof of 'rape culture' in Ireland.
Apparently by not being in agreement with her feeling that she was raped makes us de-facto advocates of rape and misogyny.
There's also a confusing element where she implies that her subsequent promiscuity was as a result of this alleged rape. Overall, the whole thing smacks of attention seeking, square-peg-round-hole retrospective and convenient labeling of regretted events in the past to suit an agenda, be it feminist, attention seeking, or whatever.
I can fully accept that if it went to court, it obviously wouldn't be a black and white rape or not scenario. I believe it to have been rape based on her article (which is obviously all we have to go on) and am offering my opinion on such.
However, I think we have different interpretations on what she said yes to, what she said no to, and her reasons for same.
Yes, she agreed to kissing throughout the whole thing, and her reason was because she didn't want to tell him she wasn't interested etc.
She didn't agree to him taking her top off. She told him to stop and he didn't.
She didn't agree to him taking her bottoms off. She told him to stop and she didn't.
She told him she did not want to have sex with him. But he carried on and at that point she stopped saying no. Not because she didn't want to tell him she wasn't interested in him or whatever, but because she had already said no to him three times, and he didn't stop.
You gave an example of you and your girlfriend, but the key difference is as you say "after I was enticed into the idea, mentally and physically". You changed your mind. You consented. She didn't. She wasn't enticed into the idea mentally or physically, she relented because she had said no three times, and he didn't stop.
That's my reading of it anyway. And again, I ask, at what point would you have stopped if you were the guy in that scenario?0 -
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And what usually gets blamed? "The Patriarchy". That would be men again. Even when they're acknowledged as victims it's still in a roundabout way their fault.Women most certainly are not always the victims and men suffer from this nonsense being propagated. Good lord.
Indeed. And have an oul perusal of how such cases are treated. How many options, practical and/or legal are available for abused male partners compared to female? Explore the disparity between sentencing in those case where women are the abusers. Hell look at the gender disparity in sentencing across all crimes The victimisation of women is quite simply seen as more important. This is a plain fact. To deny this would be moronic."I was abused by my wife" "haha man up"
"this boy was abused by his teacher" "haha she's so hot lucky fella not like that in my day"Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.
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pumpkin4life wrote: »Read up on Jordan Peterson or the psychology of trauma in general. People think trauma is a bigger version of sadness/pain; that you acknowledge and move on with. It isn't. Your brain processes it in a completely different way. Overwhelmingly, for the vast majority of cases/neurological evidence this is actually what happens. When people realize these real feelings/trauma say, through therapy, that's where your mental breakdowns come from.
The shock of a traumatic event is so strong that it can lead to your own death, so your brain will cut corners to avoid this outcome.
Memory loss.
Stockholm syndrome.
New personalities.
Memory change.
A subconscious desire to replicate the event in order to feel in control; that this time will be different.
Someone who has been abused will often not even know they've been abused. If they do tell you, (brain tries to forego it as much as possible, so you, even if you've processed it, will avoid bringing it up as much as possible), it will be because they love you enough to face up to the consequences; they really value you.
It will be after ten pints of drink.
It will be after knowing them for a long time, and you're alone with them.
People process it differently (Milo loving his abuser, someone else forgets it), but it comes down to roughly the same thing:
I wasn't abused and it didn't happen.
I'm well aware of the different ways people react to trauma. And I'm well aware of how I dealt with the aftermath of my own rape. And again, my point stands, everyone deals with things differently and you cannot say that someone "would or wouldn't do x y and z if they were raped". People react differently.0 -
Off she goes and reports him now, she's already identified him to others she went to college with. Attention seeking nonsense.0
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Everytime I hear the phrase 'rape culture' associated with Ireland I lose a few brain cells. It's really unfortunate. My brain just compresses into itself and *pop* there goes another one.0
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It's a weird one.And people think we don't need consent classes. This thread should be held up as an example at one of them
Consent is simple. It's very easy. The UK police did a great video about consent where they used the analogy of a cup of tea.
What muddies the waters here is her "soft" refusal.
To use the tea analogy;
"Will you have a cup of tea?".
"No, thanks"
"Ah, go on, you will".
"OK so".
"Will you have a slice of cake too?"
"No, thanks"
"Ah, go on, you will"
"OK so".
And so forth. By the end of the exchange the visitor has had two cups of tea, a slice of cake and a ham sandwich even though they're not hungry. All because they were too polite to say no.
It's not really a "rape culture" thing, but more of a general culture thing. That is, a culture which suggests that a refusal is only a refusal when a person says "no" a second time, and a culture which says that being assertive is rude.
The case in the OP is a weird one because it's so multifactorial. He shouldn't have proceeded after she said "no", but no rape occurred because ultimately she did consent, even if it was reluctant. Consent was given freely, he did not force anything, she pressured herself into saying yes. Consent by peer pressure is still consent.
But then there is a sexual culture issue; men are taught that women have to be convinced to have sex. Women are taught to put up a little resistance lest they be seen as "easy". So you can see why people end up in this quagmire. The man thinks the woman is just playing the game, the woman doesn't want to be thought of as someone who breaks the rules of "the game". And she ends up having sex that she didn't want, while he pats himself on the back for a successful seduction.
I guess in terms of "consent classes", this is more something that needs to be drilled into sex education. That for all parties, while you must stop when the other person says stop, the other person should ensure (for their sake as much as anything) that they're clear about where they're drawing the line.
That there is no "game", don't be ashamed to have sex when you want it, and don't be afraid to firmly call a halt when the other person doesn't know where the boundary is.0 -
LexieOnRale wrote: »If you're actually so worried that you're going to be raped surely it'll be
"Seriously, I said stop!"
"Get off me, I'm not into you"
"Leave me alone i don't want to have sex"
I think Lexie you got it. In everyday life, if your communication isn't clear, you clarify. If you clarify and the other person does not amend their behaviour, well then yes, you have a problem.
I'm sick of reading : "no means no" as a mantra.
Well actually, no.
I've said no many times myself, and changed my mind and thought : "oh, alright then".
Not just about sex, or about tea. About everything.
My "no"s don't always mean "no", but my communication and life skills are such that in a situation that I realize may be confusing to the other person, I will
a) decide whether I mean no or not b) clarify.
Now, if there is a problem with young girls' communication skills, then education should sort this.
If the problem lies with the girls/women not quite knowing what they want, well then, again education, maybe social/sexual is probably the answer.
I think in this instance, there is no rape, and the poster's narcissistic and selfish attention seeking blog post must feel horrible to victims of rape.0 -
Ah here IBC, personal responsibility? Are you nuts? Apparently according to some of these vocal "feminists" personal responsibility is only ever in the man's hands.
Don't bs me with 'these vocal feminist' . I deplore term rape culture and I have no love for extremes of feminism but this idea that 'people don't really mean no' is idiotic. Sure every woman who kisses someone wants to have sex with them straight away and no is just false modesty? Give me a break, what is so hard to understand about no? Especially when having sex for the first time and having no experience of how someone communicates. Why is it ok to just continue instead of pausing and asking 'are you sure?'.
Not all actions are intentional and done with malice but if you didn't know you were over the limit and still drove, does that mean you weren't drink driving?0 -
I think it's a conversation worth having and maybe it might help in terms of people being more cognisant of not being overtly pushy in a new relationship and thinking that 'no means yes' that people should be more forthright in terms of laying down the law and not going with the flow if it makes you uncomfortable. These are all valid issues and concerns around the notion of consent. The conversation around it is sure to be fractious and it is bound not to reach a consensus but it one worth having.
The crying selfie she posted up on instagram doesn't sit right with me at all though. Especially the justification"[Maybe at a later date we can have a conversation about when is and isn't appropriate to post a crying selfie. Maybe it's never appropriate. But I'd never waste an opportunity to capture a selfie that said something other than "what do you think of my lipstick?"]0 -
I can fully accept that if it went to court, it obviously wouldn't be a black and white rape or not scenario. I believe it to have been rape based on her article (which is obviously all we have to go on) and am offering my opinion on such.
However, I think we have different interpretations on what she said yes to, what she said no to, and her reasons for same.
Yes, she agreed to kissing throughout the whole thing, and her reason was because she didn't want to tell him she wasn't interested etc.
She didn't agree to him taking her top off. She told him to stop and he didn't.
She didn't agree to him taking her bottoms off. She told him to stop and she didn't.
She told him she did not want to have sex with him. But he carried on and at that point she stopped saying no. Not because she didn't want to tell him she wasn't interested in him or whatever, but because she had already said no to him three times, and he didn't stop.
You gave an example of you and your girlfriend, but the key difference is as you say "after I was enticed into the idea, mentally and physically". You changed your mind. You consented. She didn't. She wasn't enticed into the idea mentally or physically, she relented because she had said no three times, and he didn't stop.
That's my reading of it anyway. And again, I ask, at what point would you have stopped if you were the guy in that scenario?
My reading of it is if we are to believe rape is such a heinous and terrible crime which I think we can all agree, how can someone in their right mind just get raped as they don't want an awkward conversation.
Furthermore then the person doesn't want to wreck the rapist life so they say nothing. It's beggars belief, you want to be taken seriously on rape and I definitely do then please use the functions in place to resolve this rather than trial by media.
The question I have is what type of Ireland do these people want. What is the end game here?0 -
She didn't agree to him taking her top off. She told him to stop and he didn't.
She didn't agree to him taking her bottoms off. She told him to stop and she didn't.
I'm really not interested in defending the guy in this version of events, whether it's an accurate account of events or not. If it went down as described then he's a creep.
But I'd be careful enough about your quoted description. What was originally written doesn't have him flinging her out of her clothes. As an account it's pretty careful about what it doesn't say. A top that is removed in the passive. The world's first self-removing top. And that's why one person's version of events written for a blog years later is something you can't really draw much concrete from. Other than she now feels she was raped, there's very little anyway can say.0 -
So a woman that went to sleep, didn't invite the person to the bedroom, said no repeatedly should be educated how to communicate properly.Mountainsandh wrote: »Now, if there is a problem with young girls' communication skills, then education should sort this.
If the problem lies with the girls/women not quite knowing what they want, well then, again education, maybe social/sexual is probably the answer.
Got it.0 -
So a woman that went to sleep, didn't invite the person to the bedroom, said no repeatedly should be educated how to communicate properly.
Got it.
Exactly yah if this crime is one of the worst things that can be done to a person, you don't just lie there and take it you fight your corner.0 -
Ruining a guys life cause she regretted sleeping with him isn't rape, I think this young girl needs help mentally and if found mentally stable should possibley be talked to by the law0
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Stop kissing him, say no and demand he leave immediately might have worked better than having sex and regretting it later and then years later wondering whether this is rape or not.
Also writing it on your website where you refer to yourself as a social influencer (lol) and also ask people to pay to conveniently advertise on this website shows that maybe there's another angle here.
If you genuinely believe you were raped, you would have reported it. End of story. It's years later and you still can't decide (this was not rape in my opinion) but now this so called rape culture is in the mainstream media you'll write an auld article and see how it goes.0 -
Don't bs me with 'these vocal feminist' . I deplore term rape culture and I have no love for extremes of feminism but this idea that 'people don't really mean no' is idiotic. Sure every woman who kisses someone wants to have sex with them straight away and no is just false modesty? Give me a break, what is so hard to understand about no? Especially when having sex for the first time and having no experience of how someone communicates. Why is it ok to just continue instead of pausing and asking 'are you sure?'.
Not all actions are intentional and done with malice but if you didn't know you were over the limit and still drove, does that mean you weren't drink driving?
If she didn't really mean no then why did she continue to kiss him? Her words said one thing, her actions said another. "No" definitely does not always mean no.0 -
You gave an example of you and your girlfriend, but the key difference is as you say "after I was enticed into the idea, mentally and physically". You changed your mind. You consented. She didn't. She wasn't enticed into the idea mentally or physically, she relented because she had said no three times, and he didn't stop.
The problem/ambiguity comes into it because after saying no she continued to be voluntarily intimate with him. If she is just saying no but then continuing with what they are doing, you have to agree that she isn't making it very clear whats going through her head? He wasnt forceful or aggressive by her own admission.
This means there were definite mixed messages and the guy could realistically have interpreted her "no" to mean "slow down" or "not yet".0 -
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It will thanks and it's not right. The case you quoted originally was not only using drink as an argument but also social circumstances, I feel the Irish law doesn't have as much the kind of injustices that exist in the US case when you can just apply money to the situation.
I also think over the past year or two that the law has hardened up in an Irish perspective.
You are right, and Stanford was a poor choice of example, apologies. I'd like to think that you are right when you say that the law is hardening up. For what it's worth, I'm all for equality. I despise the kind of "fwoar, get in laddie" reaction to an adult female sexually assaulting a male student for example - I believe that her sentence should be the equivalent of a male teacher/female student. My concern is that by promoting or allowing grey areas (not necessarily the subject of this thread but in a wider view) or by saying that the "no" was the wrong type of "no" it only damages everyone in the scenario.
I've a son. I want to teach him to be the kind of guy that when noticing that the girl (or guy!) he is kissing is not into it or is reluctant /drunk/falling asleep, or says no that he stops right away. That the correct action to take is to put that person in a taxi home, find their friend, or tuck into bed clothed and unmolested. If it turns out that the person kinda sorta did want sex, then they learn to be clearer the next time about what they want and not bandy the word "no" around in a half hearted and ambiguous way.0 -
Don't bs me with 'these vocal feminist' . I deplore term rape culture and I have no love for extremes of feminism but this idea that 'people don't really mean no' is idiotic. Sure every woman who kisses someone wants to have sex with them straight away and no is just false modesty? Give me a break, what is so hard to understand about no? Especially when having sex for the first time and having no experience of how someone communicates. Why is it ok to just continue instead of pausing and asking 'are you sure?'.
Not all actions are intentional and done with malice but if you didn't know you were over the limit and still drove, does that mean you weren't drink driving?
At what point in her story did he force her to do anything?0 -
J Mysterio wrote: »Everytime I hear the phrase 'rape culture' associated with Ireland I lose a few brain cells. It's really unfortunate. My brain just compresses into itself and *pop* there goes another one.
I'm absolutely the same, I detest this nonsense of "rape culture", I've said as much here on Boards before, numerous times. I'm also all about people taking personal responsibility for their actions, and just as I read through this thread, and relating to this case in particular -
When do we start talking about the mans personal responsibility when he hears "no", or senses that everything isn't kosher, where is his personal responsibility to say "ok, fair enough", and walk away?0 -
Guy you've been avoiding knocks on the bedroom door looking for sex? Tell him you're going to bed and shut the door. You willingly get into the uncomfortable situation of kissing and he's still trying for sex? Stop kissing him and don't engage in intimate activity. Tell him to get out.
Nothing else needs to be said. This is bang on the money. This society of 'victims' with online platforms is disgusting. From that girl in the wheelchair taking shots at Ryanair to this social influencer. These assholes have a snapchat, blog, FB page and think it gives them carte blanche to preach to the world. Worrying thing is though that they have a legion of sheep ready to take them at their every word and support them. Deluded is what they are.0 -
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Remunerative attention seeking.
It's a social media phenomenon, cry rape, generate traffic to your blog site.
More traffic will mean more potential for advertising equals more revenue.0
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