Greenways [greenway map of Ireland in post 1]

Grassey · 29-09-2020 3:52pm

Grassey wrote: »

DLRCC looking to link up 2 Greenways via segregated routes

https://dlrcoco.citizenspace.com/infrastructure-climate-change/dlr-safe-walking-cycling-routes-consultation/

Looking for feedback on it

Had some texts forwarded to me regarding this, typical hysteria 'OMG, we will lose all access to Mount Merrion Ave', 'Traffic Chaos everywhere', 'Won't be able to get to the shops' etc

If you are in anyway supportive of any of these proposed routes can you submit something as part of the Council consultation. It's be nice to balance out the feedback with something constructive.

serfboard · 29-09-2020 3:55pm

riddlinrussell wrote: »

Well this was the issue in NI, the comber greenway was built with an 'understanding' that when they wanted the land to build a light rail corridor for Belfast it would be reinstated as a light railway. When the initial plans for the Glider arose DoI asked for the land back and got massive public outcry. That's why I'm saying you need to make sure that you have a legal document, I would say alternative/replacement route of equal quality would have to be a stipulation in such a document.

Agree, and AFAIK that was the point that Comber missed out on - the line was going to be reinstated thereby removing the Greenway, with nothing put in its place. No surprise that there were objections.

daniel_t1409 · 29-09-2020 4:54pm

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

What sort of a service would you run to link Waterford to Wexford and Enniscorthy? It would have to go into Rosslare Strand and driver change ends, it would take ages and would not be an attractive service at all. There would be little or no commuter potential given the limitations of the single track and Dublin services take priority. You might get day trippers but nothing like enough to justify the cost of providing the service. Any potential that there is could be served by bus, no doubt a superior service at less cost. It is far from just the political will that is not there.

https://wexfordtoday.com/2020/09/18/south-wexford-railway-10th-anniversary-of-closure/

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

Going via New Ross would require significant stretches on road and would be far less attractive than the former rail line.

It could link in with the Waterford/New Ross greenway, as well as the proposed Palace East/Bagenalstown geenway. Most of the land is still in CIE ownership. The only roads that it would have to go along are quiet roads towards Wexford and the old N30 that has been bypassed/

30-09-2020 11:58am

riddlinrussell wrote: »

Well this was the issue in NI, the comber greenway was built with an 'understanding' that when they wanted the land to build a light rail corridor for Belfast it would be reinstated as a light railway. When the initial plans for the Glider arose DoI asked for the land back and got massive public outcry. That's why I'm saying you need to make sure that you have a legal document, I would say alternative/replacement route of equal quality would have to be a stipulation in such a document.

Please educate yourself re comber, you have been misled

Muckyboots · 30-09-2020 12:08pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Please educate yourself re comber, you have been misled

Correct. I'd like to see some evidence of the "massive outcry", any searches I've completed only show a fiscal preference to the current bendy buses by the NI Assembly.

riddlinrussell · 30-09-2020 12:11pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Please educate yourself re comber, you have been misled

Not sure on what aspect you mean? There was considerable opposition to the EWAY proposal to use the trackbed for BRT, and the Knock relief sewer was installed along the route expressly aligned so it wouldn't impede any tram/bus route run along the trackbed.

It was clearly a case where the government wanted to 'reopen' a line and got major opposition from the public, which is where a legally binding document would be beneficial?

There was a campaign group formed "Greenway to stay" Internet Archive Link to the site, indicating there was at least enough public opposition to organise and get a website running.

I don't doubt that fiscal considerations played a significant role, I'm basing a lot of my info on Wesley Johnsons site information here so I could be wrong. Just saying that there was definitely opposition publicly to removing the greenway, which was installed, at least in part, under the idea of protecting the alignment for future transit projects.

purplepanda · 01-10-2020 3:19pm

It is vital that the current Railway between Rosslare / Wexford & Waterford is not converted to a Greenway.

This is a nationally important piece of public transport infrastructure that should be maintained & upgraded to provide important rail travel to & from County Wexford & the East Coast region to Waterford & beyond to Southern & Western Ireland. The €35 million cost of the Greenway should be spent on upgrading the Railway.

There are other options in place to provide Cycling routes including an alternative route to New Ross from Wexford via Macmine on the old railway line & some cycling routes are already in place such as the Wexford Trails Eurovelo route 1 connecting the Wexford south coastal villages & resorts, perhaps this project should be invested in properly.

https://wexfordtrails.ie/Directory/eurovelo-route/?fbclid=IwAR2GQGgIKSgnuHJIaW_RN-yWR6UJVZSUNvyG1PzVEmvtmAUIm8yADdELzhY

hans aus dtschl · 01-10-2020 3:26pm

purplepanda wrote: »

It is vital that the current Railway between Rosslare / Wexford & Waterford is not converted to a Greenway.

This is a nationally important piece of public transport infrastructure that should be maintained & upgraded to provide important rail travel to & from County Wexford & the East Coast region to Waterford & beyond to Southern & Western Ireland. The €35 million cost of the Greenway should be spent on upgrading the Railway.

There are other options in place to provide Cycling routes including an alternative route to New Ross from Wexford via Macmine on the old railway line & some cycling routes are already in place such as the Wexford Trails Eurovelo route 1 connecting the Wexford south coastal villages & resorts, perhaps this project should be invested in properly.

https://wexfordtrails.ie/Directory/eurovelo-route/?fbclid=IwAR2GQGgIKSgnuHJIaW_RN-yWR6UJVZSUNvyG1PzVEmvtmAUIm8yADdELzhY

It's almost like you just ignored all the previous posts...

daniel_t1409 · 01-10-2020 3:55pm

purplepanda wrote: »

It is vital that the current Railway between Rosslare / Wexford & Waterford is not converted to a Greenway.

This is a nationally important piece of public transport infrastructure that should be maintained & upgraded to provide important rail travel to & from County Wexford & the East Coast region to Waterford & beyond to Southern & Western Ireland. The €35 million cost of the Greenway should be spent on upgrading the Railway.

There are other options in place to provide Cycling routes including an alternative route to New Ross from Wexford via Macmine on the old railway line & some cycling routes are already in place such as the Wexford Trails Eurovelo route 1 connecting the Wexford south coastal villages & resorts, perhaps this project should be invested in properly.

https://wexfordtrails.ie/Directory/eurovelo-route/?fbclid=IwAR2GQGgIKSgnuHJIaW_RN-yWR6UJVZSUNvyG1PzVEmvtmAUIm8yADdELzhY

Excellent post. It would make more sense to have the greenway going from New Ross to Wexford via macmine rather than south wexford. First of all, Waterford/New Ross is already being built, why not continue onto Wexford and Rosslare from there rather than start again at Belview? Secondly, south wexford already has plenty attractions for tourists(Hook lighthouse, etc,) but North Wexford doesn't have many. Thirdly, you mentioned the Eurovelo route, why not invest in it like you said, and, promote it.

riddlinrussell · 01-10-2020 3:56pm

purplepanda wrote: »

It is vital that the current Railway between Rosslare / Wexford & Waterford is not converted to a Greenway.

This is a nationally important piece of public transport infrastructure that should be maintained & upgraded to provide important rail travel to & from County Wexford & the East Coast region to Waterford & beyond to Southern & Western Ireland. The €35 million cost of the Greenway should be spent on upgrading the Railway.

There are other options in place to provide Cycling routes including an alternative route to New Ross from Wexford via Macmine on the old railway line & some cycling routes are already in place such as the Wexford Trails Eurovelo route 1 connecting the Wexford south coastal villages & resorts, perhaps this project should be invested in properly.

https://wexfordtrails.ie/Directory/eurovelo-route/?fbclid=IwAR2GQGgIKSgnuHJIaW_RN-yWR6UJVZSUNvyG1PzVEmvtmAUIm8yADdELzhY

I will state for the record that if 35 million was spent upgrading the wexford EV routes to a european standard then I personally wouldn't see any reason to greenway the rail route, as it stands it is mostly along rural roads with no protections however.

jackofalltrades · 01-10-2020 4:08pm

purplepanda wrote: »

The €35 million cost of the Greenway should be spent on upgrading the Railway.

Where are you getting this figure from?

There are other options in place to provide Cycling routes including an alternative route to New Ross from Wexford via Macmine on the old railway line...

How much would this route cost to run separated cycling facilities along it?

...
& some cycling routes are already in place such as the Wexford Trails Eurovelo route 1 connecting the Wexford south coastal villages & resorts, perhaps this project should be invested in properly.

You'd be talking about upgrading 120km of road way, to provide separated cycle tracks alongside the road.
I'm guessing that will cost a lot more than the €12 million that's estimated for using the old railway line.

riddlinrussell · 01-10-2020 4:21pm

jackofalltrades wrote: »

Where are you getting this figure from?

How much would this route cost to run separated cycling facilities along it?

You'd be talking about upgrading 120km of road way, to provide separated cycle tracks alongside the road.
I'm guessing that will cost a lot more than the €12 million that's estimated for using the old railway line.

When they refer to New Ross-Macmine I imagine they mean to make that old railway a greenway across the county instead of the southern railway, this route would then require a route alongside the main Rosslaire-Wexford line or road/alternative solutions from Macmine to Wexford town/Rosslaire. (Again I think this would be a fine route, I wouldn't know enough about the possible economic merits of restoring the Rosslare to Waterford Line)

hans aus dtschl · 01-10-2020 4:33pm

The argument appears to be this: "The railway should not be converted to a greenway. Instead we should spend money on rail."
I find this a bit frustrating.

As far as I can see, nobody on this thread has any problem with spending money on rail or restoring the disused railways whatsoever. Many of us have explicitly stated that we're in favour of it. But there is little investment in rail right infrastructure right now and large numbers of rail projects remain unfunded. The idea of disused lines being reopened seems optimistic. IÉ don't want to reopen these railways. The government don't want to fund them.

There is money available for greenways and people are actively opposing them.

It feels like we're leaving the "perfect" prevent the "good". If there's a prospect of any line returning to active use in the short or medium term then any talk of a greenway is obviously a bad idea. I don't think anyone will argue otherwise.

But saying "we shouldn't convert to a greenway: we should spend money on rail" seems to be a pretty textbook straw man argument?

riddlinrussell · 01-10-2020 4:37pm

hans aus dtschl wrote: »

The argument appears to be this: "The railway should not be converted to a greenway. Instead we should spend money on rail."
I find this a bit frustrating.

As far as I can see, nobody on this thread has any problem with spending money on rail or restoring the disused railways whatsoever. Many of us have explicitly stated that we're in favour of it. But there is little investment in rail right infrastructure right now and large numbers of rail projects remain unfunded. The idea of disused lines being reopened seems optimistic. IÉ don't want to reopen these railways. The government don't want to fund them.

There is money available for greenways and people are actively opposing them.

It feels like we're leaving the "perfect" prevent the "good". If there's a prospect of any line returning to active use in the short or medium term then any talk of a greenway is obviously a bad idea. I don't think anyone will argue otherwise.

But saying "we shouldn't convert to a greenway: we should spend money on rail" seems to be a pretty textbook straw man argument?

This would be my thinking also, I am 100% behind the idea of rail, but given how badly the active use rail infrastructure in Ireland currently needs upgrading I won't hold my breath for Rosslaire to Waterford getting priority for some time....

Del.Monte · 01-10-2020 6:28pm

riddlinrussell wrote: »

This would be my thinking also, I am 100% behind the idea of rail, but given how badly the active use rail infrastructure in Ireland currently needs upgrading I won't hold my breath for Rosslaire to Waterford getting priority for some time....

You fail to grasp the true situation i.e. CIE have been trying to get rid of the Waterford/Rosslare line for decades and they won't be seeking any investment for it - they want rid of it.

riddlinrussell · 01-10-2020 6:42pm

Del.Monte wrote: »

You fail to grasp the true situation i.e. CIE have been trying to get rid of the Waterford/Rosslare line for decades and they won't be seeking any investment for it - they want rid of it.

I am well aware of this issue, which frankly makes my point that saying "reopen the railway instead of turning it into a greenway" is going to be shouting into empty space when it comes to this route, unless some other operator wants to take it on IE have zero interest in trying to open it up again. Unless the minister can compel operations be increased (in which case he can compel a better timetable for a few existing routes first...) I dont think anything is happening railwise down there for the foreseeable.

Pete_Cavan · 01-10-2020 7:51pm

The South Wexford line is not "nationally important", any importance it had went with the sugar beet industry. Look at the list of stations on the line (Killinick, Bridgetown, Duncormick, Wellingtonbridge, Ballycullane and Campile), between them the population is tiny. The two trains a day which did operate the line were at times to suit commuting to Waterford and that couldn't attract enough passengers to justify the cost of a barebones service. The only other potential passengers during the day were day trippers, and they could only be small numbers given the small population in the catchment area. Adding more services (which would undoubtedly be near empty) would have only increased the losses on the line. There's a reason why IE don't want the line.

The idea that there is/was a market for trains from Wicklow or North Wexford to Waterford on a magical mystery tour via Rosslare and Bridgetown is laughable. The road upgrades in the region make the train journey about 50% longer in distance and likely at a lower average speed. The earlier article states "The journey time of 1hr and 20 minutes was very competitive at the time when compared to road journeys and would still be competitive today". Road journey from Rosslare Strand to Waterford would be an hour, from Wexford town, Enniscourty or Gorey the road journey is the same or less, while from these towns the train journey only gets longer due to still having to go to RS.

Investing in the line to make it competitive would still see the same issues of lack of population along the line and circuitous route for journeys not starting on the line itself. Talk of booking tickets online or the like are red herrings, the fundamentals are completely wrong for a viable rail service. The demand for train services from Wexford is going north towards Dublin, this is where investment should be focused. Spending significant money so trains can rattle through tiny villages while there are other parts of the network crying out for investment is madness. There are so many other projects that could improve services on routes with far greater populations. The calls for investment into the south Wexford line are based on a fetish for trains alone, taxpayers money shouldn't and won't be thrown into such a blackhole.

The article linked previously even talked about reducing emissions, running diesel trains along this line would see a significant net increase in emissions as there would little or no reduction in car journeys to offset everything spewed out by the train. If sustainability or the environment was a concern, bus services would be the focus as they offer multiple routes which people may actual want to travel, lower emissions, faster and more frequent services and be available now rather than in several decades time.

The south Wexford line has the potential to add to the wonderful Dungarvan to Waterford Greenway. The viaducts and Dunbrody Abbey would be great features/attractions to have along the greenway which would only be viewed for a minute from a train. JFK Arboretum, Tintern Abbey and Johnstown Castle could be tied in with a few short spurs. A 100km greenway from Dungarvan to Rosslare would be a genuinely top quality asset for the country, and the south east in particular. It would bring far more benefits at lower cost than a train service passing an insignificant population.

The Wexford Eurovelo 1 Route is just signs on roads. On-road cycle routes are no comparison to greenway and shouldn't be talked about as an alternative. The line east of New Ross is all but gone (ironically the route via New Ross would be far better for a train service as it at least passes a town with a notable population and is a more direct journey from Wicklow/North Wexford), even what isolated stretches remain can't be stitched together easily without buying land. These aren't viable alternatives for a greenway on the rail line.

marno21 · 01-10-2020 8:45pm

Whatever use the South Wexford line had it went out the window in January when the N25 New Ross bypass opened. That bridge completely transforms journeys from Campile and other places which previously had poor connectivity across the Barrow. Totally different kettle of fish now.

spacetweek · 01-10-2020 8:46pm

Well said.

Del.Monte · 02-10-2020 8:07am

Forum name should be changed to Roads & Greenways.

purplepanda · 02-10-2020 8:21am

jackofalltrades wrote: »

Where are you getting this figure from?

Wexford People newspaper report from September 15th titled "Greenway & Reinstated Rail Route would be Impossible"

Quote from Wexford County Chief Executive Engineer Tom Enright in the above article.

The real eventual cost of these "Greenways" / Tarmacways is being hidden from the public, I'll wager the real cost of the current construction of New Ross - Waterford Greenway will be at least the figure quoted above by the time it is finished.

whisky_galore · 02-10-2020 8:22am

Del.Monte wrote: »

Forum name should be changed to Roads & Greenways.

Roads and Little Roads.

Del.Monte · 02-10-2020 8:27am

@Pete_Cavan

Your entire post is invalidated by your list of stations you think the line serves - Duncormick and Killinick were both closed as far back as 1976.

"The two trains a day which did operate the line were at times to suit commuting to Waterford and that couldn't attract enough passengers to justify the cost of a barebones service."

At the time of closure the service consisted of an 07.00 departure from Rosslare Harbour arriving Waterford at 8.20 and a return working (designed to suit train crews rather than passengers) departed Waterford at 17.20. Hardly convenient for anybody working in Waterford.

At the end there was a connection from Enniscorthy into the 07.00 departure from Rosslare Harbour but there was NO promotion of the service i.e. nothing at all in Enniscorthy Station, the local newspapers or anywhere else. I live in Enniscorthy, am a rail user and am not pontificating about the rail line from the far end of the country using Wiki (?) as my main source unlike some posters here.

riddlinrussell · 02-10-2020 8:29am

purplepanda wrote: »

Wexford People newspaper report titled "Greenway & Reinstated Rail Route would be Impossible"

Quote from Wexford County Chief Executive Engineer Tom Enright in the above article.

The real eventual cost of these "Greenways" / Tarmacways is being hidden from the public, I'll wager the real cost of New Ross - Waterford Greenway will be at least the figure quoted above by the time it is finished.

I feel this is straying into tinfoil hat territory, I think the greenway has its place, but as part of a transport network rather than what Ireland has treated them as so far, a "place to drive to and cycle at".

Safe cycling infrastructure in cities and towns is vital, bit so is reconnecting rural communities in ways that dont require cars. I firmly believe that this can be done with a combination of expanding local link buses, and greenways as a network spine for a cycling and walking network between towns.

There was a great twitter thread on this relating to the plans for the Midleton to Youghal greenway, I'll try to find it (may have been posted here already)

Del.Monte · 02-10-2020 8:37am

riddlinrussell wrote: »

I am well aware of this issue, which frankly makes my point that saying "reopen the railway instead of turning it into a greenway" is going to be shouting into empty space when it comes to this route, unless some other operator wants to take it on IE have zero interest in trying to open it up again. Unless the minister can compel operations be increased (in which case he can compel a better timetable for a few existing routes first...) I dont think anything is happening railwise down there for the foreseeable.

Whether CIE wish to reopen the line is irrelevant - they were totally opposed to reopening Ennis/Athenry but were obliged to by the Government.

riddlinrussell · 02-10-2020 8:59am

Del.Monte wrote: »

Whether CIE wish to reopen the line is irrelevant - they were totally opposed to reopening Ennis/Athenry but were obliged to by the Government.

They can make bad faith business cases by poor time tabling etc, but does the government have a keen interest in reopening Wexford to Waterford either? If the transport pledges of the greens is worth anything then it should be going into fixing the creaking core network, the best chance any of the mothballed lines would have to reopen is a fast, efficient and reliable core service to link in to.

loyatemu · 02-10-2020 9:10am

Del.Monte wrote: »

Forum name should be changed to Roads & Greenways.

there are plenty of rail-based projects being discussed, the difference is they're feasible projects that will carry lots of passengers.

The use cases people are proposing for the South Wexford - ferry passengers; rail freight; Wexford-Waterford commuters; are pie in the sky. The only circumstances under which the railway becomes remotely viable is if climate change force a massive change in society away from cars and planes and towards trains and boats. That may happen, but I think it's long shot, and decades away at best.

hans aus dtschl · 02-10-2020 10:16am

Del.Monte wrote: »

At the time of closure the service consisted of an 07.00 departure from Rosslare Harbour arriving Waterford at 8.20 and a return working (designed to suit train crews rather than passengers) departed Waterford at 17.20. Hardly convenient for anybody working in Waterford.

Excuse my ignorance but isn't that the very definition of the most convenient commuting time? The Cobh and Midleton lines are packed out the doors at those two times.

Pete_Cavan · 02-10-2020 10:18am

Del.Monte wrote: »

@Pete_Cavan

Your entire post is invalidated by your list of stations you think the line serves - Duncormick and Killinick were both closed as far back as 1976.

"The two trains a day which did operate the line were at times to suit commuting to Waterford and that couldn't attract enough passengers to justify the cost of a barebones service."

At the time of closure the service consisted of an 07.00 departure from Rosslare Harbour arriving Waterford at 8.20 and a return working (designed to suit train crews rather than passengers) departed Waterford at 17.20. Hardly convenient for anybody working in Waterford.

At the end there was a connection from Enniscorthy into the 07.00 departure from Rosslare Harbour but there was NO promotion of the service i.e. nothing at all in Enniscorthy Station, the local newspapers or anywhere else. I live in Enniscorthy, am a rail user and am not pontificating about the rail line from the far end of the country using Wiki (?) as my main source unlike some posters here.

When those stations closed is irrelevant, all the other stations on the line are equally as closed today regardless of them having closed later. They are indeed former stations regardless of trains not stopping at them for decades before the line closed. I'm sure if I didn't mention them, you would also then be complaining about it. If the line was to be reinstated, those stations could potentially be reopened and served, that's why I included them. My list of former stations is factually correct and even if it wasn't, that wouldn't invalidate my entire post. The fact you have to resort to such pedantic nitpicking as a retort only further validates my post.

8.20 arrival and 17.20 departure are reasonable commuting times. There may be scope to adjust these if the line was reopened but the limitations of single track and the presence of more important services mean any RS - Wat service has to take what it can get. There would almost certainly only be one set working the route so additional commute time arrivals/departures would be extremely unlikely. And the population and demand just isn't there to justify more services. You can pretend that "IE just didn't bother" is the only reason the line closed but if you look at it objectively, it is clear the minimal benefits from operating the line far outweigh the enormous cost <snip>.

No amount of promotion would make a rail journey from Enniscourty to Waterford via Rosslare attractive. It would be double the distance and journey time compared to road. Expecting the taxpayer to fork out €X0m to reopen the line and then subsidise every journey to the tune of several hundred euro is not realistic. If you cared about public transport, you would demand a bus service which would be far faster, more frequent and cheaper than the rail service could be. Instead, the fundamentals of decent public transport go out the window when the Trainspotters want another train service.

riddlinrussell · 02-10-2020 10:20am

hans aus dtschl wrote: »

Excuse my ignorance but isn't that the very definition of the most convenient commuting time? The Cobh and Midleton lines are packed out the doors at those two times.

Indeed, I think 10 minutes later in both cases would probably be optimum but those definitely don't sound like crazy operating schedules, not like the Waterford to Limerick line or some others....

Greenways [greenway map of Ireland in post 1]

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