Cities around the world that are reducing car access

MJohnston · 25-10-2018 4:29pm #1

I thought this would be an interesting thread to track the efforts of various cities to reduce the amount of car access, and thereby improve either the public realm, transport infrastructure, or just the local environment.

Today Paris won a court case which will allow them to proceed with banning cars from the banks of the Seine:

https://twitter.com/Anne_Hidalgo/status/1055442830892654594

https://phys.org/news/2016-09-paris-cars-river-seine.html

Zebra3 · 25-10-2018 6:30pm

Staggering that a decision to ban things that pollute and kill so many people which also destroy cities can be challenged in court.

28-10-2018 4:00am

13 cities reducing cars

https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2018/03/13-cities-that-are-starting-to-ban-cars?

CatInABox · 28-10-2018 9:41am

With College Green Plaza being rejected for incredibly old fashioned ideas, such as a misinterpretation of Traffic Evaporation and getting Induced Demand completely wrong, I wonder is there scope to appeal ABP decision, and if that's rejected, is there scope for bringing it into the courts system?

I mean seriously, rejecting it because there no plans for more "road space". I fell off my chair when I read that, and I'm still falling.

MJohnston · 28-10-2018 11:27am

Not to reinterrogate the plaza decision, but I think the thing that really killed it was what we're talking about in this thread - the ambition to remove cars from parts of the city. If Paris can ban then from the banks of the Seine, there's no reason we can't have a much smaller ban on a relatively short portion of the quays. It is needed to give buses a fast and efficient path through the city. Plaza or no, I think we should be doing it.

zl1whqvjs75cdy · 28-10-2018 11:30am

All for it. But the public transport in Dublin isn't up to it at the moment so all you'll do is piss people off at the moment

LeinsterDub · 28-10-2018 12:08pm

donkeyoaty0099 wrote: »

All for it. But the public transport in Dublin isn't up to it at the moment so all you'll do is piss people off at the moment

Public transport won't improve if we keep prioritising the car.

OldMrBrennan83 · 28-10-2018 12:11pm

The huggers need to accept that buses and bikes aren't always practical.

P_1 · 28-10-2018 12:13pm

Patww79 wrote: »

The huggers need to accept that buses and bikes aren't always practical.

And sitting in traffic for hours on end is?

We need a congestion charge in Dublin and potentially Galway too. Give permits to residents and delivery drivers. All funds generated from this are ringfenced into proper public transport.

Everyone wins

OldMrBrennan83 · 28-10-2018 12:16pm

P_1 wrote: »

And sitting in traffic for hours on end is?

We need a congestion charge in Dublin and potentially Galway too. Give permits to residents and delivery drivers. All funds generated from this are ringfenced into proper public transport.

Everyone wins

No, not everyone. You, and people who think like you, win.

P_1 · 28-10-2018 12:20pm

Patww79 wrote: »

No, not everyone. You, and people who think like you, win.

I assume you drive everywhere in town. How long do you spend sat in traffic? Think what else you could be doing with that time

OldMrBrennan83 · 28-10-2018 12:27pm

P_1 wrote: »

I assume you drive everywhere in town. How long do you spend sat in traffic? Think what else you could be doing with that time

I can bring what I want, bring home what I want (to an extent but there's piles of room in a car), and enjoy the solitude and safety you never have the pleasure of on a public vehicle.

P_1 · 28-10-2018 12:33pm

Patww79 wrote: »

I can bring what I want, bring home what I want (to an extent but there's piles of room in a car), and enjoy the solitude and safety you never have the pleasure of on a public vehicle.

Must cost you an absolute fortune. I see it every day on the north quays, nothing but misery on everyone's faces. That's no way to live life

lalababa · 28-10-2018 12:35pm

Patww79 wrote: »

The huggers need to accept that buses and bikes aren't always practical.

Practical today, deadly tomorrow.
It's not logical to have too many vehicles going to the same place at the same time with only one person in them all the while emmiting toxic and greenhouse gasses in a built up area.
Apart from that it causes stress.
The argument using short-term unpracticalbillity is illogical.
If your arteries are getting clogged up you have to go to the doctor and get medication, you also have to change your lifestyle to unclog them. If you don't you will most likely die an early death at some point in the future.
You might not find it practical to go to the doctor today however as you have to drop Johnny to school and do a bit of shopping in town.
You may not find it practical to change your eating habits today as you are a bit rushed with work and can only grab something from the deli.

AndrewJRenko · 28-10-2018 1:23pm

Patww79 wrote: »

I can bring what I want, bring home what I want (to an extent but there's piles of room in a car), and enjoy the solitude and safety you never have the pleasure of on a public vehicle.

Do you expect cities to be built and managed around your personal desire to drive around with an empty armchair beside you and an empty couch behind you?

MJohnston · 28-10-2018 1:33pm

Patww79 wrote: »

I can bring what I want, bring home what I want (to an extent but there's piles of room in a car), and enjoy the solitude and safety you never have the pleasure of on a public vehicle.

Maybe this ain't the thread for you, considering its about cities that have said "tough luck" to the private car driver!

OldMrBrennan83 · 28-10-2018 1:37pm

MJohnston wrote: »

Maybe this ain't the thread for you, considering its about cities that have said "tough luck" to the private car driver!

Fair enough but the war needs to be fought though. If there was a thread on using cars in cities how long do you think it would be before someone was along with some nonsense about pollution and the environment? And I somehow doubt your high moral compass on relevant posts would be along to correct anyone there.

Other cities are of no concern to me but I really don't want Dublin or any other ones here to follow suit.

Anyway, we'll never agree so yeah carry on.

NSAman · 28-10-2018 1:42pm

LeinsterDub wrote: »

Public transport won't improve if we keep prioritising the car.

Public transport has to be usable and available to most before you can ditch the car.

MJohnston · 28-10-2018 1:45pm

Patww79 wrote: »

Fair enough but the war needs to be fought though. If there was a thread on using cars in cities how long do you think it would be before someone was along with some nonsense about pollution and the environment? And I somehow doubt your high moral standing on relevant posts would be along to correct anyone there.

Other cities are of no concern to me but I really don't want Dublin or any other ones here to follow suit.

If you want to create a thread that lives in la la land, go ahead. But we live in a country with an environmental and societal agenda that will very soon target selfish car use in cities. Even whether or not you think this is the right thing to do, you have to admit that for a city like Dublin, there is no other option.

You yourself have admitted that no form of public transport will be enough to peel you from your car seat. So building more Metros won't solve the traffic problem. And there's absolutely no way to make space for *more* traffic, never mind the environmental arguments against it.

So, there's only one way forward, and that's to make things unpleasant for drivers in parallel with public transport improvements.

If you have an alternative idea that doesn't involve some nutty Elon Musk road tunnel, I'm all ears!

Brian CivilEng · 28-10-2018 2:47pm

There are people that need cars to get by, the mobility impaired or infirm, elderly people and also delivery drivers. Those people more than anyone should feel most aggrieved by roads being full of able bodies drivers on their own in a car making journeys of less than 5km.

LeinsterDub · 28-10-2018 5:22pm

NSAman wrote: »

Public transport has to be usable and available to most before you can ditch the car.

In Dublin it certainly is that already.

blanch152 · 28-10-2018 6:59pm

Patww79 wrote: »

The huggers need to accept that buses and bikes aren't always practical.

Public transport needs to be improved and facilitated, and if cars need to be banned to achieve that, I am all for it.

Bicycles are different, they are not an all-year round option for commuting in Ireland. In winter, whether it is storms or snow, or just the darker mornings and nights, commuting by bicycle drops. For that reason, we shouldn't be working to facilitate bicycles in the same way as buses, Luas or trains.

Ben D Bus · 28-10-2018 7:02pm

NSAman wrote: »

Public transport has to be usable and available to most before you can ditch the car.

It's useable for enough people right now to start changing things. The tougher cases can be dealt with later as PT becomes better as a result of the changes.

blanch152 · 28-10-2018 7:03pm

LeinsterDub wrote: »

In Dublin it certainly is that already.

#

Not a chance. Try getting a bus to Blanchardstown from Blackhall Place any evening. Watch them pass by, full up to the gills.

P_1 · 28-10-2018 7:34pm

blanch152 wrote: »

Public transport needs to be improved and facilitated, and if cars need to be banned to achieve that, I am all for it.

Bicycles are different, they are not an all-year round option for commuting in Ireland. In winter, whether it is storms or snow, or just the darker mornings and nights, commuting by bicycle drops. For that reason, we shouldn't be working to facilitate bicycles in the same way as buses, Luas or trains.

For any journey of 10k or less for a person of average fitness cycling really is the smartest option to get around town.

For Dublin that equates to basically anywhere within the M50 going to the city center.

LeinsterDub · 28-10-2018 7:35pm

blanch152 wrote: »

#

Not a chance. Try getting a bus to Blanchardstown from Blackhall Place any evening. Watch them pass by, full up to the gills.

That would suggest that the bus is usable and used by many and is available for most

MJohnston · 28-10-2018 9:49pm

blanch152 wrote: »

Public transport needs to be improved and facilitated, and if cars need to be banned to achieve that, I am all for it.

Bicycles are different, they are not an all-year round option for commuting in Ireland. In winter, whether it is storms or snow, or just the darker mornings and nights, commuting by bicycle drops. For that reason, we shouldn't be working to facilitate bicycles in the same way as buses, Luas or trains.

If you work to facilitate buses and pedestrians, you will unavoidably facilitate cyclists too.

It's basically a 3 way balance - Luas on one side, cars on another side, buses/pedestrians/cyclists on the other (trains tend to live completely apart from all that). Right now we're very much tilted towards the cars.

AndrewJRenko · 28-10-2018 10:32pm

blanch152 wrote: »

Public transport needs to be improved and facilitated, and if cars need to be banned to achieve that, I am all for it.

Bicycles are different, they are not an all-year round option for commuting in Ireland. In winter, whether it is storms or snow, or just the darker mornings and nights, commuting by bicycle drops. For that reason, we shouldn't be working to facilitate bicycles in the same way as buses, Luas or trains.

Lights sort the darker nights and mornings. Snow is indeed a problem, but an extremely rare one. Storms too.

Cycling is a very practical solution to commuting in Dublin all year round for many people.

Zebra3 · 29-10-2018 8:16am

Winters are colder and darker in Denmark yet they seem to be able to cycle over there no problem in huge numbers.

I wonder what the big difference is. If only I could put my finger on it.....

jimwallace197 · 29-10-2018 8:36am

I would have no problem in using public transport more if it was anyway suitable.

We all know where the motortax goes in this country already so why would that change if they introduced congestion charges.

Already there is huge mismanagement of our finances through sheer incompetence & corruption so why do you think that would change for this.

It’s embarrassing our capital doesn’t have a proper underground metro or even proper rail network.

For me, my work requires me to drive, cycling from a to b or waiting on a bus is not practical

blanch152 · 30-10-2018 1:06am

P_1 wrote: »

For any journey of 10k or less for a person of average fitness cycling really is the smartest option to get around town.

For Dublin that equates to basically anywhere within the M50 going to the city center.

Don't disagree that this is true most of the time, the problem is that cycling stops for six or more weeks in the winter, and if commuting is built around cycling, that causes a massive problem.

For me, I am not that interested in sorting the commuting cyclist infrastructure, I am much more interested in sorting the public transport infrastructure which should take priority over cycling.

Carawaystick · 30-10-2018 1:31am

blanch152 wrote: »

Bicycles are different, they are not an all-year round option for commuting in Ireland. In winter, whether it is storms or snow, or just the darker mornings and nights, commuting by bicycle drops. For that reason, we shouldn't be working to facilitate bicycles in the same way as buses, Luas or trains.

But Busses and tram commuting drops in Snow too, whether it's busses not running in snow or luasanna being blocked by snowpeople built on tracks, and in the middle of the summer when it gets dark, no trams or busses run, whereas bikes work 24/7/365
even on xmas day

Carawaystick · 30-10-2018 1:33am

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Lights sort the darker nights and mornings. Snow is indeed a problem, but an extremely rare one. Storms too.

Snow's not a problem, ice is a problem on a bike.

Del2005 · 30-10-2018 1:37am

Carawaystick wrote: »

Snow's not a problem, ice is a problem on a bike.

Snows a problem for cars never mind a bike

AndrewJRenko · 30-10-2018 1:49am

Carawaystick wrote: »

Snow's not a problem, ice is a problem on a bike.

Fair point. After the big snows in 2012 and 2013, my MTB with chunky tyres on the road (where most of the snow had been worn down by traffic) was much safer than walking on the impacted ice/slush on the paths.

blanch152 wrote: »

Don't disagree that this is true most of the time, the problem is that cycling stops for six or more weeks in the winter, and if commuting is built around cycling, that causes a massive problem.

Really? Is there a holiday period that I've not heard about? Sure, it's a bit colder and a bit darker, but it doesn't prevent cycling.

I agree that public transport needs more funding. I heard mentioned that there is no public transport infrastructure being developed this year or next year, which by comparison to road development, is fairly outrageous.

jimwallace197 wrote: »

Already there is huge mismanagement of our finances through sheer incompetence & corruption so why do you think that would change for this.

Is this one of those things that people say when they disagree with policy decisions? Is Ireland any different from most Western democracies in managing our finances?

CatInABox · 30-10-2018 10:34am

Cork County Council urged to convert green areas to parking

I don't think I could facepalm more at this kind of thing.

markpb · 30-10-2018 11:10am

blanch152 wrote: »

For me, I am not that interested in sorting the commuting cyclist infrastructure, I am much more interested in sorting the public transport infrastructure which should take priority over cycling.

Whatever your thoughts or preferences, cycling infrastructure can be built more quickly and more cheaply than transit infrastructure. It’ll be at least 2-3 years before any of the BusConnect infrastructure is built (and probably more because of the CPOs required) and it’ll be more than a decade before a metro is built (and probably more). Those are very worthwhile projects but we could build and open an awful lot of good cycling infrastructure while we’re waiting. That’s infrastructure that will have an immediate effect.

AndrewJRenko · 30-10-2018 11:29am

CatInABox wrote: »

Cork County Council urged to convert green areas to parking

I don't think I could facepalm more at this kind of thing.

What's the Council process if I need to take public space to store other kinds of private property? I'm really stuck for somewhere to put my drum kit, my butterfly collection and my lawnmower. Surely I must be able to claim some public space to store these?

CatInABox · 30-10-2018 11:34am

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

I agree that public transport needs more funding. I heard mentioned that there is no public transport infrastructure being developed this year or next year, which by comparison to road development, is fairly outrageous.

No big projects, but they are all in planning right now.

One of the major impediments to more public transport projects is that most of the easy stuff is already done, a point made by the NTA to the government committees. From now on, it's all public consultations, planning permission, political will. All that takes time, unfortunately.

cgcsb · 31-10-2018 11:11am

CatInABox wrote: »

With College Green Plaza being rejected for incredibly old fashioned ideas, such as a misinterpretation of Traffic Evaporation and getting Induced Demand completely wrong, I wonder is there scope to appeal ABP decision, and if that's rejected, is there scope for bringing it into the courts system?

I mean seriously, rejecting it because there no plans for more "road space". I fell off my chair when I read that, and I'm still falling.

I view Ireland as being generally about 15 years behind Northern Europe for most social attitudes, although, we seem to have overtaken the UK and much of Germany in that respect. I view Spain as being exceptional in Southern Europe for it's attitude towards transport, energy and waste management.

It's perplexing that that our national planning authority doesn't understand modal shift, traffic evaporation etc. But like many institutions in Ireland, they are often stuffed with dinosaurs, hence my 15 year view. In the modern world 15 years = a lot of change. 100 years ago that was not the case. We rarely want to be the first country to so something 'radical'. We'll wait until Oslo, Copenhagen and Amsterdam are completely car-free before we'll put even modest restrictions on cars.

cgcsb · 31-10-2018 11:13am

Patww79 wrote: »

The huggers need to accept that buses and bikes aren't always practical.

The petrol heads need to accept there is no space for them, and nobody wants to get cancer from your engine, thanks.

cgcsb · 31-10-2018 11:15am

Patww79 wrote: »

some nonsense about pollution and the environment?

ya lost me there

cgcsb · 31-10-2018 11:21am

blanch152 wrote: »

Public transport needs to be improved and facilitated, and if cars need to be banned to achieve that, I am all for it.

Bicycles are different, they are not an all-year round option for commuting in Ireland. In winter, whether it is storms or snow, or just the darker mornings and nights, commuting by bicycle drops. For that reason, we shouldn't be working to facilitate bicycles in the same way as buses, Luas or trains.

Maybe cycling wouldn't decrease in winter time if there was actual cycling infrastructure that made it safe in all conditions?

Go to Stockholm, where they have real winters, dark and snowy.

In Dublin cycling is mostly the preserve of Irish males in their 20s and 30s because everyone else is petrified. I cycle to work throughout winter, but If I was not in the above mentioned demographic, I doubt I would.

cgcsb · 31-10-2018 11:22am

blanch152 wrote: »

#

Not a chance. Try getting a bus to Blanchardstown from Blackhall Place any evening. Watch them pass by, full up to the gills.

a capacity issue, which of course is solved by removing road space from cars and giving it to buses, you can't have one without the other.

cgcsb · 31-10-2018 11:26am

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Lights sort the darker nights and mornings. Snow is indeed a problem, but an extremely rare one. Storms too.

Cycling is a very practical solution to commuting in Dublin all year round for many people.

It's ideal really, I've cycled in Bilbao/San Sebastian, considered to be the mild weathered part of Spain and was absolutely KILLED with the heat. Never again. Dublin has a close to ideal climate for it. Rain is rare and light, temperatures are moderate throughout the seasons, light breezes are always nice.

cgcsb · 31-10-2018 11:28am

jimwallace197 wrote: »

I would have no problem in using public transport more if it was anyway suitable.

And as soon as road space is taken from cars and given to buses cyclists and pedestrians, that will change.

jimwallace197 wrote: »

We all know where the motortax goes in this country already so why would that change if they introduced congestion charges.

Already there is huge mismanagement of our finances through sheer incompetence & corruption so why do you think that would change for this.

Not sure where you're going with this??

cgcsb · 31-10-2018 11:33am

blanch152 wrote: »

Don't disagree that this is true most of the time, the problem is that cycling stops for six or more weeks in the winter, and if commuting is built around cycling, that causes a massive problem.

It doesn't stop though, that's fiction. Numbers reduce. The reduction is largely due to the weather having a negative impact on crap infrastructure. Same problems don't come up in Stockholm where they have an actual winter.

Even if your point were true, having 40% or so cycling to work 46 weeks of the year would be a holy grail accomplishment.

blanch152 wrote: »

For me, I am not that interested in sorting the commuting cyclist infrastructure, I am much more interested in sorting the public transport infrastructure which should take priority over cycling.

You might not be, but given that the majority of commutes are under 10km, policy certainly is/should be.

AndrewJRenko · 31-10-2018 2:29pm

cgcsb wrote: »

In Dublin cycling is mostly the preserve of Irish males in their 20s and 30s because everyone else is petrified.

While spending time 'on the line' with IBikeDublin over the past year, I was pleasantly surprised to see that was not generally the case. There was a very wide mix of gender, ages, ethnicity.

CatInABox wrote: »

No big projects, but they are all in planning right now.

Maybe, but surely this could have been predicted and avoided. There should be a pipeline of projects, with some 'shovel-ready' in any particular year.

pigtown · 01-11-2018 11:58am

CatInABox wrote: »

With College Green Plaza being rejected for incredibly old fashioned ideas, such as a misinterpretation of Traffic Evaporation and getting Induced Demand completely wrong, I wonder is there scope to appeal ABP decision, and if that's rejected, is there scope for bringing it into the courts system?

I mean seriously, rejecting it because there no plans for more "road space". I fell off my chair when I read that, and I'm still falling.

I thought the major issue was the huge increase of people waiting at relocated busstops on the already narrow congested footpaths on the quays? That's a legitimate refusal issue in my opinion as it would greatly impact on pedestrian safety and thus cyclist and driver safety too.

If there was a plan to address this in tandem then I'm sure ABP would've had a different opinion.

CatInABox · 01-11-2018 1:16pm

pigtown wrote: »

I thought the major issue was the huge increase of people waiting at relocated busstops on the already narrow congested footpaths on the quays? That's a legitimate refusal issue in my opinion as it would greatly impact on pedestrian safety and thus cyclist and driver safety too.

If there was a plan to address this in tandem then I'm sure ABP would've had a different opinion.

It was the second of two main reasons mentioned, but the steps included to mitigate the increase in passengers were dismissed by ABP as "not assessed".

Of course, it seems like it wouldn't have mattered anyway, as the main reason that it was rejected was the traffic is would cause outside the college green area, with the report stating that "significant shortcomings have been identified with the modelling exercise". Of course, those "significant shortcomings" were identified by a taking a single trip and comparing it to the average built up over months of journeys used in the model. The underlying report, Traffic and Transportation Assessment, is chock full of errors like that, including some 1970s thinking around road space.

green shoots · 01-11-2018 3:22pm

The city centre is way too car orientated. I am regularly on lower baggot st during the day. The part around where Merrion St meets lower baggot st is barely 4 foot wide in parts and it leads to cramming on the footpath and buses and trucks turning corners while nearly crushing pedestrians. Meanwhile there are 2 lanes of traffic flying down in one direction.
Why can't pedestrians and bikes be prioritised here? One lane is surely enough, and the paths can be widened.

Cities around the world that are reducing car access

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