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TDs have voted to make it compulsory to stand during the Dail prayer

24567…10

Comments

  • #52
    techdiver
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,279 ✭✭✭techdiver


    Anyone who thinks this is "no harm", or a good idea is nothing but a zealotous moron!

    Why was this even on the agenda today? What were they trying to fix, other than to copper fasten, the close link of church and state at a time when it under the most (deserved) pressure.

    Pray at ****ing home if you want to. Don't be making it an even greater part of or so called secular state institutions!


  • #53
    big syke
    Registered Users Posts: 906 ✭✭✭big syke


    zedhead wrote: »
    It might be. I regularly arrive to work early, if I had to leave my desk and wait outside to avoid having to stand for a prayer in my office I would not be too happy. Also for people on flexi time they may start work earlier than the official start time so this would interfere with their day. It has no place in a work setting at all!

    Are people on flexi time in your job asked to leave their desk for prayer time?

    Actually does this actually affect you particular situation?

    The dail does not operate flexi time.

    The prayers are in the chamber before the working day.


  • #54
    Chester Copperpot
    Closed Accounts Posts: 103 ✭✭Chester Copperpot


    big syke wrote: »
    So once they are inside a state building they have to act as legislators in the interests of all Irish citizens?

    What about lunch hour?

    I really fail to grasp peoples problem.

    Prayers before work that are optional outside working hours??

    What is the issue?

    The issue is that they are using the dail. Why don't they have a pray outside before going in


  • #55
    big syke
    Registered Users Posts: 906 ✭✭✭big syke


    ScumLord wrote: »
    So it's basically that Catholics can reserve the dail so they can have a prayer for themselves and non catholics have stand or stay out?

    It's the hijacking of the centre of our state for a select group of people.

    Is there not already some sort of chapel in the dail?

    Yes they have the dail for a short amount of time BEFORE THE WORKING DAY.

    I am sure members of other religions can petition for some time to pray also (outside working hours).

    You are being a bit OTT calling it hijacking.


  • #56
    The_Valeyard
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,452 ✭✭✭✭The_Valeyard


    techdiver wrote: »
    Anyone who thinks this is "no harm", or a good idea is nothing but a zealotous moron!

    Why was this even on the agenda today? What were they trying to fix, other than to copper fasten, the close link of church and state at a time when it under the most (deserved) pressure.

    Pray at ****ing home if you want to. Don't be making it an even greater part of or so called secular state institutions!

    Yes, calling people who you disagree with morons is really an insightful and helpful way to debate an issue.


  • #57
    zedhead
    Registered Users Posts: 603 ✭✭✭zedhead


    big syke wrote: »
    Are people on flexi time in your job asked to leave their desk for prayer time?

    Actually does this actually affect you particular situation?

    The dail does not operate flexi time.

    The prayers are in the chamber before the working day.

    The response was to someone who was saying it shouldnt be an issue if it was introduced in any workplace. It hasn't been introduced in my workplace but I would of course have a huge issue if it was in any way shape or form. Apart from actual religious organisations - prayer has no place to be mandated for in a work place, especially not our government.
    If people want to pray is should be done in a way to not impact anyone else in the workplace, it is a private matter.


  • #58
    pjohnson
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,148 ✭✭✭✭pjohnson


    The_Valeyard wrote: »
    Yes, calling people who you disagree with morons is really an insightful and helpful way to debate an issue.

    It also shows a certain level of intelligence.


  • #59
    big syke
    Registered Users Posts: 906 ✭✭✭big syke


    Chester Copperpot wrote: »
    The issue is that they are using the dail. Why don't they have a pray outside before going in

    Why is the use of the dail an issue though?


  • #60
    ThisRegard
    Closed Accounts Posts: 27,833 ✭✭✭✭ThisRegard


    pjohnson wrote: »
    Approaching 3pm....yup its time for boards anti-catholic thread!

    It's not anticatholic, it's pro separation of church and state.


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  • #61
    Chester Copperpot
    Closed Accounts Posts: 103 ✭✭Chester Copperpot


    The other issue is that the ceann comhairle must also lead the prayer. So they will exclude people from that position if they don't want to pray. Is a shoddy piece of legislation and hopefully won't last long


  • #62
    PopePalpatine
    Registered Users Posts: 11,971 ✭✭✭✭PopePalpatine


    The_Valeyard wrote: »
    Damn people for having other opinions than mine, I am so outraged and offended.

    Now I shall over use the word of how Ireland is coming a backwater, wtf, bla, bla, bla.

    It's an optional prayer before work begins, no one is forced to attend.

    This isn't merely an opinion that you can feel euphoric over being some sort of "free speech" keyboard warrior. The Ceann Comhairle will now be required to lead the prayer, which will force all but devout Catholics to betray their conscience if they're appointed to this position unless this stupid rule is removed. At least other countries' parliaments which begin their day with a prayer bring in a chaplain to lead proceedings.


  • #63
    shamrock55
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,212 ✭✭✭shamrock55


    This country is literally getting worse by the day


  • #64
    big syke
    Registered Users Posts: 906 ✭✭✭big syke


    zedhead wrote: »
    The response was to someone who was saying it shouldnt be an issue if it was introduced in any workplace. It hasn't been introduced in my workplace but I would of course have a huge issue if it was in any way shape or form. Apart from actual religious organisations - prayer has no place to be mandated for in a work place, especially not our government.
    If people want to pray is should be done in a way to not impact anyone else in the workplace, it is a private matter.


    How does it realistically impact, in this instance, someone else's workplace though?

    I am genuinely curious.


  • #65
    Woodville56
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,643 ✭✭✭Woodville56


    cursai wrote: »
    The_Valeyard wrote: »
    Damn people for having other opinions than mine, I am so outraged and offended.

    Now I shall over use the word of how Ireland is coming a backwater, wtf, bla, bla, bla.

    It's an optional prayer before work begins, no one is forced to attend.

    It shouldn't be in the workplace. Especially the Dail......

    But obviously the vast majority of TD's think it should on the basis of the vote ? If some people have a problem with that, let them elect enough like minded members next time and overturn the vote. Personally I feel that those members who don't wish to participate in the prayer should be allowed in the chamber and remain seated at that time if they wish, rather than having to stay outside.


  • #66
    The_Valeyard
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,452 ✭✭✭✭The_Valeyard


    ThisRegard wrote: »
    It's not anticatholic, it's pro separation of church and state.

    It could be seen as anti-catholic / Christian wrapped up in the guise of pro separation of church and state.


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  • #67
    Dont be at yourself
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,586 ✭✭✭✭Dont be at yourself


    Can we see individual TDs' voting record on this? Great to know for when they next knock on my door.


  • #68
    big syke
    Registered Users Posts: 906 ✭✭✭big syke


    ThisRegard wrote: »
    It's not anticatholic, it's pro separation of church and state.

    Its funny I am 100% for separation of church and state.

    no issue with a prayer before work though as it doesn't really impact anyone to a great extent.

    It is actually such a non issue its laughable.


  • #69
    kylith
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,736 ✭✭✭✭kylith


    The_Valeyard wrote: »
    Just out of the way all hush hush, no sight if your faith anywhere, might displease some atheists.
    Actually, the bible refers to people who pray in public as hypocrites. Matthew 6:5.


  • #70
    freshpopcorn
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 30,838 ✭✭✭✭freshpopcorn


    I say a few just voted for it just to make Clare Daly stand up!


  • #71
    The_Valeyard
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,452 ✭✭✭✭The_Valeyard


    PopePalpatine wrote: »
    This isn't merely an opinion that you can feel euphoric over being some sort of "free speech" keyboard warrior. The Ceann Comhairle will now be required to lead the prayer, which will force all but devout Catholics to betray their conscience if they're appointed to this position unless this stupid rule is removed. At least other countries' parliaments which begin their day with a prayer bring in a chaplain to lead proceedings.

    Who is been a free speech keyboard warrior? A change will be brought in place if the Crank Comhairle is not Catholic or comfortable with leading a prayer. I dont see a problem with a Chaplin leading proceedings.


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  • #72
    ThisRegard
    Closed Accounts Posts: 27,833 ✭✭✭✭ThisRegard


    The_Valeyard wrote: »
    It could be seen as anti-catholic / Christian wrapped up in the guise of pro separation of church and state.

    How is it anti-catholic?
    big syke wrote: »
    Its funny I am 100% for separation of church and state.

    no issue with a prayer before work though as it doesn't really impact anyone to a great extent.

    It is actually such a non issue its laughable.

    How can you be 100% for separation of church and state if you have no problems with a prayer from a specific religion being read before each days business, to which people not of that religion, or any religion, must stand for? What you say and what you think do not tally with each other.


  • #73
    infogiver
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,505 ✭✭✭infogiver


    pjohnson wrote: »
    It also shows a certain level of intelligence.

    Calling someone a moron indicates intelligence?
    What an astonishing thing to say.


  • #74
    Cee-Jay-Cee
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,235 ✭✭✭✭Cee-Jay-Cee


    This is outrageous! Imagine they're making those poor fat useless showe of incompetent **** stand on their own two feet for 30 seconds. They'd need to get a load of defib units on standby for when the fat unfit feckers keel over from exhaustion.


  • #75
    big syke
    Registered Users Posts: 906 ✭✭✭big syke


    Chester Copperpot wrote: »
    The other issue is that the ceann comhairle must also lead the prayer. So they will exclude people from that position if they don't want to pray. Is a shoddy piece of legislation and hopefully won't last long

    Was not aware of that.

    I am sure that that could/would be changed in the event that the ceann comhairle was non catholic.


  • #76
    dinorebel
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,283 ✭✭✭dinorebel


    techdiver wrote: »
    There are no words!.... :mad::mad::mad:

    Joe


  • #77
    infogiver
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,505 ✭✭✭infogiver


    Dont be at yourself wrote: »
    Can we see individual TDs' voting record on this? Great to know for when they next knock on my door.

    Well of the 97 who voted 17 were against and SF as usual abstained so it would be easier to find out who voted against.


  • #78
    keano_afc
    Registered Users Posts: 8,711 ✭✭✭keano_afc


    Rabble rabble rabble.


  • #79
    zedhead
    Registered Users Posts: 603 ✭✭✭zedhead


    big syke wrote: »
    How does it realistically impact, in this instance, someone else's workplace though?

    I am genuinely curious.

    It doesn't. But the question was how if it was implemented in your workplace would it affect your day.

    Also just because it doesn't affect another work place doesn't mean it is the right course of action. If it wouldn't be allowed in other workplaces, then why should it be allowed in the dail? Separation of church and state, if people want to pray then that's their right, but it should not required to be lead by the Ceann Comhairle (who at any point in the future may not be catholic, and surely a non catholic leading a prayer is at the very least quite disrespectful) nor should anyone else be required to observe by standing or get out of the room.


  • #80
    ScumLord
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 28,789 ✭✭✭✭ScumLord


    The_Valeyard wrote: »
    It could be seen as anti-catholic / Christian wrapped up in the guise of pro separation of church and state.
    It's not anti catholic to want our representatives to keep dail for dail business. This basically means that non religious or Christian people are excluded from the dail until the Christians have done their thing, you can't even go in and sit down preparing for your day.

    They could have set aside a room as a chapel and let them go there.

    It's just mind boggling that this is what they're doing now, when there's so much controversy over the state being under the thumb of the church they go and highlight that fact by hijacking the dail to say prayers they could be saying to themselves at any other time of the day. This is a very public declaration that Catholic values come first at the expense of other people's freedom to do their job without feeling like outcasts.

    It's just not the place, why force your believes on the state like that?


  • #81
    osarusan
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,694 ✭✭✭✭osarusan


    RTE not using the words 'compulsory', instead saying they will be 'asked' to stand. Don't know if that is significant.

    Coppinger has already said she will refuse to stand.


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  • #82
    NinjaKirby
    Closed Accounts Posts: 221 ✭✭NinjaKirby


    Who are they praying to?
    What are they praying for?

    There are 4 possibilities here really...

    1. God is real and the prayers are genuine. Our politicians are just trying to do right by us.
    2. God is real but the prayers are not 100% genuine. Our politicians are doing a half assed job.
    3. God isn't real and our politicians know it but will pray anyway. Our politicians are dishonest liars.
    4. God isn't real but our politicians think God is real and so they pray. Our politicians are delusional.

    So, I think we are basically screwed... unless we pray?


  • #83
    big syke
    Registered Users Posts: 906 ✭✭✭big syke


    ThisRegard wrote: »
    How is it anti-catholic?



    How can you be 100% for separation of church and state if you have no problems with a prayer from a specific religion being read before each days business, to which people not of that religion, or any religion, must stand for? What you say and what you think do not tally with each other.

    Because in my eyes a prayer of any kind before a working day i.e. Catholic prayers, Salah, Musaf etc is not the same as the catholics churches involvement with state institutions i.e. schools, hospitals etc.

    I fail to see how you cant grasp this.


  • #84
    pjohnson
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,148 ✭✭✭✭pjohnson


    big syke wrote: »
    Its funny I am 100% for separation of church and state.

    no issue with a prayer before work though as it doesn't really impact anyone to a great extent.

    It is actually such a non issue its laughable.

    The non issues always cause the most upset


  • #85
    howamidifferent
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,819 ✭✭✭howamidifferent


    NinjaKirby wrote: »
    Who are they praying to?
    What are they praying for?

    There are 4 possibilities here really...

    1. God is real and the prayers are genuine. Our politicians are just trying to do right by us.
    2. God is real but the prayers are not 100% genuine. Our politicians are doing a half assed job.
    3. God isn't real and our politicians know it but will pray anyway. Our politicians are dishonest liars.
    4. God isn't real but our politicians think God is real and so they pray. Our politicians are delusional.

    So, I think we are basically screwed... unless we pray?

    I'd bet huge money on number 3... :cool:


  • #86
    big syke
    Registered Users Posts: 906 ✭✭✭big syke


    zedhead wrote: »
    It doesn't. But the question was how if it was implemented in your workplace would it affect your day.

    Also just because it doesn't affect another work place doesn't mean it is the right course of action. If it wouldn't be allowed in other workplaces, then why should it be allowed in the dail? Separation of church and state, if people want to pray then that's their right, but it should not required to be lead by the Ceann Comhairle (who at any point in the future may not be catholic, and surely a non catholic leading a prayer is at the very least quite disrespectful) nor should anyone else be required to observe by standing or get out of the room.

    I am sure it would/could be allowed in other places of work if enough people petitioned for it.

    Agreed in respect of Ceann Comhairle leading. This should be scrapped.


  • #87
    ThisRegard
    Closed Accounts Posts: 27,833 ✭✭✭✭ThisRegard


    On the whole SF abstaining issue, they actually had an amendment to drop the prayer and have it as silence instead, so I figure they were just abstaining from the other amendments.


  • #88
    cursai
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,915 ✭✭✭cursai


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c8Rngy90Q14


  • #89
    IrishSea
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 71 ✭✭IrishSea


    All of Fianna Fail and Fine Gael voted in favour I would presume.
    Gotta keep those Catholic votes.....


  • #90
    keano_afc
    Registered Users Posts: 8,711 ✭✭✭keano_afc


    osarusan wrote: »
    RTE not using the words 'compulsory', instead saying they will be 'asked' to stand. Don't know if that is significant.

    Coppinger has already said she will refuse to stand.

    Of course she has, she's an attention seeking geebag.


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  • #91
    judeboy101
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,246 ✭✭✭judeboy101


    Pherekydes wrote: »
    It's unconstitutional. I wonder will it be challenged in the courts.

    Have you read our constitution? Its full of references to God and Christianity.The dail is just reflecting the spirit and will of the people as expressed in the founding documents of our country.


  • #92
    ThisRegard
    Closed Accounts Posts: 27,833 ✭✭✭✭ThisRegard


    judeboy101 wrote: »
    Have you read our constitution? Its full of references to God and Christianity.The dail is just reflecting the spirit and will of the people as expressed in the founding documents of our country.

    Does it say in the constitution that Ireland is a catholic country?


  • #93
    greendom
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,382 ✭✭✭✭greendom


    judeboy101 wrote: »
    Have you read our constitution? Its full of references to God and Christianity.The dail is just reflecting the spirit and will of the people as expressed in the founding documents of our country.

    it needs to change, those founding documents are clearly out of date


  • #94
    ScumLord
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 28,789 ✭✭✭✭ScumLord


    big syke wrote: »
    I am sure it would/could be allowed in other places of work if enough people petitioned for it.
    I don't see why, it's a another case of do it on your own time. When you're in work, you do work, you can spend the rest of the day flagellating yourself if you want, but do it on your own time, in an appropriate place.


  • #95
    big syke
    Registered Users Posts: 906 ✭✭✭big syke


    ScumLord wrote: »
    I don't see why, it's a another case of do it on your own time. When you're in work, you do work, you can spend the rest of the day flagellating yourself if you want, but do it on your own time, in an appropriate place.

    Before work day begins is you own time.


  • #96
    big syke
    Registered Users Posts: 906 ✭✭✭big syke


    ThisRegard wrote: »
    Does it say in the constitution that Ireland is a catholic country?

    I think reference to it were removed some time back along with inclusion of other religions.


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  • #97
    padd b1975
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,784 ✭✭✭✭padd b1975


    pjohnson wrote: »
    The issue is that variants of "church" and "pray" are major triggers for some AH regulars.

    As is the concept of parliamentary democracy it seems.


  • #98
    techdiver
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,279 ✭✭✭techdiver


    The_Valeyard wrote: »
    Yes, calling people who you disagree with morons is really an insightful and helpful way to debate an issue.
    pjohnson wrote: »
    It also shows a certain level of intelligence.
    infogiver wrote: »
    Calling someone a moron indicates intelligence?
    What an astonishing thing to say.

    You cannot debate with people who believe in such things though.

    They see nothing wrong with ramming religion down everyone else's throat, whether it comes to education, the health service and the running of our state institutions.

    I'm all for religious freedom, but as long as that freedom doesn't impact on others. The issue however is that we still live in a nation that puts faith above fact and the actions today is another example of that!


  • #99
    ScumLord
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 28,789 ✭✭✭✭ScumLord


    big syke wrote: »
    Before work day begins is you own time.
    It's a public building though, it's still not the place.


    Just on the news there, not standing will get you thrown out or lose a days pay. http://www.newstalk.com/Dail-votes-to-make-standing-mandatory-for-prayer

    That's not right.


  • #100
    NinjaKirby
    Closed Accounts Posts: 221 ✭✭NinjaKirby


    judeboy101 wrote: »
    Have you read our constitution? Its full of references to God and Christianity.The dail is just reflecting the spirit and will of the people as expressed in the founding documents of our country.

    I don't know about God but Christianity doesn't exactly have a great record when it comes to treatment of the people in this country.

    So maybe it's time to cast it aside? Just saying...

    Worst case scenario I am getting a chuckle out of the idea that the people running the nation are doing a wee prayer before they get started. :rolleyes:


  • #101
    judeboy101
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,246 ✭✭✭judeboy101


    ThisRegard wrote: »
    Does it say in the constitution that Ireland is a catholic country?

    I never said catholic, I said christian. And of the top of my head, the preamble, articles 6 and 12 all invoke a christian, or at a stretch a judea/christian god


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