How can Shannon turn its fortunes around

Balf · 10-10-2019 2:48pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Yeah why weren't they thinking of this sort of thing in 1939 !

In fairness, they didn't do too bad if it ended up serving more than 80% of air passengers.

Pretty impressive if it's in the wrong location.

I'd have thought that Cork Airport is the only one that's in the wrong place.

Is Shannon in the wrong place? I mean, too late to do anything about it now. But it's slap bang on the coast, as it was originally meant to include a Flying Boat base (that was never actually needed.) That, in theory at least, halves its potential catchment - similar to the problem of Dublin's coastline-hugging DART line. Beautiful views, but ducks and fish don't use transportation so much.

Would it do better if it had been planned and located as an airport for Limerick City or Galway City? Idle thought at this stage.

Balf · 14-10-2019 10:14am

They won't like that, Ted.

https://www.independent.ie/business/irish/do-hard-work-yourself-walsh-tells-shannon-airport-38590557.html

Shannon Airport has a viable future as a seasonal transatlantic gateway and should stop "demanding that everyone else does the hard work for them", Willie Walsh says.

Geuze · 14-10-2019 10:28am

HTCOne wrote: »

The airport couldn’t even sustain CDG flights (I was a regular user). For whatever reason people are voting with their feet. Bar the Northeast US & London, it’s an absolute pain in the arse to get anywhere, with 1 & 2 weekly flights here and there. It’s my local airport & I’d love to be able to use it for a long weekend in Rome or Paris but that’s no longer possible. That isn’t the fault of the airlines or Dublin airport, it’s people in the Shannon catchment who used to use it but now prefer saving a few quid or having more choice of flights via DUB.

The likes of Loganair, Stobart and Flybe would be ideal customers for the airport to pursue imo, maybe HOP too.

Sorry, I haven't read the full thread, but can I ask is it the case that excluding TA flights, all SNN has is UK flights, and none to continental Europe?

Balf · 14-10-2019 11:05am

Geuze wrote: »

Sorry, I haven't read the full thread, but can I ask is it the case that excluding TA flights, all SNN has is UK flights, and none to continental Europe?

There are some flights to European destinations - but none to any significant European hub.

By contrast, Cork Airport has services to AMS and Paris - CDG.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shannon_Airport#Busiest_routes

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cork_Airport#Busiest_routes

Blut2 · 14-10-2019 11:36am

ORK and SNN between them would have enough combined transatlantic and European traffic to be a viable regional airport. But the problem is them both being so close to each other, and splitting the limited catchment area population/air traffic, means neither is viable as things are currently.

Ideally I think one of them would be closed/downsized to prioritize the other, but that would be an incredibly hard sell politically to the locals living very close to either one.

Balf · 14-10-2019 1:00pm

Blut2 wrote: »

Ideally I think one of them would be closed/downsized to prioritize the other, but that would be an incredibly hard sell politically to the locals living very close to either one.

In one way, I know what you mean - if you could add the two airports together, you'd have quite a decent operation. But just a few thoughts:

Could Shannon's T/A business move to Cork? Cork Airport's runway is quite short, and I understand there are practical barriers to extending it.

Would Cork's European routes work in Shannon? If so, why are they not there already? For whatever reason, Cork Airport seems to be more successful in getting local people to use these routes from their local airport. Would they still use them if they moved to Shannon?

Would we envisage (and I know this is only us imagining how it might play out in theory) that Cork or Shannon would close to scheduled traffic, but Knock and Farranfore would continue in operation? Between them, they serve about 1 million passengers. Would you expect one of them to close, before Cork or Shannon (bearing in mind that Galway Airport no longer has any commercial traffic.)

Acosta · 14-10-2019 1:06pm

One large Airport built in the Mallow area with motorways in different directions would probably be ideal. Never going to happen though.

14-10-2019 1:18pm

”Shannon Airport has a viable future as a seasonal transatlantic gateway and should stop "demanding that everyone else does the hard work for them", Willie Walsh says.“

https://www.independent.ie/business/irish/do-hard-work-yourself-walsh-tells-shannon-airport-38590557.html

https://www.rte.ie/news/munster/2019/1014/1083236-shannon-airport/

Church plate being rattled in the second article.

Only airport on the island with a negative growth rate at the moment. Why are they allowed access the regional airport fund, I’ve been told in this topic that they aren’t a regional airport ?

Blut2 · 14-10-2019 2:42pm

Balf wrote: »

In one way, I know what you mean - if you could add the two airports together, you'd have quite a decent operation. But just a few thoughts:

Could Shannon's T/A business move to Cork? Cork Airport's runway is quite short, and I understand there are practical barriers to extending it.

Would Cork's European routes work in Shannon? If so, why are they not there already? For whatever reason, Cork Airport seems to be more successful in getting local people to use these routes from their local airport. Would they still use them if they moved to Shannon?

Would we envisage (and I know this is only us imagining how it might play out in theory) that Cork or Shannon would close to scheduled traffic, but Knock and Farranfore would continue in operation? Between them, they serve about 1 million passengers. Would you expect one of them to close, before Cork or Shannon (bearing in mind that Galway Airport no longer has any commercial traffic.)

Cork's semi-successful European routes are a function of its larger population catchment, compared to Shannon. They wouldn't/don't function as well in Shannon because Shannon is too far from Cork city - people just go to DUB instead. As far as T/A traffic goes I'm not sure about ORK's runway, but I presume if the willpower was there something could be fixed.

Ideally in terms of developing a South/Western regional airport I think all of ORK, SNN and Kerry/Farranfore would close - and a combined replacement would be built just south of Limerick City. That would be 1hr 20min from both Galway and Cork city, under 2hrs from Waterford, and obviously next to Limerick. The combined traffic of those three is close to 4.5mn PAX already, with a bit of synergy it would grow even more in theory.

Then again in such idealistic theoretical scenarios theres always the point that compared to the airport situation in most other countries/regions DUB is close enough to every major population point on the island as is, so all resources should just be focused there. 1hr 45min to Belfast, 2hrs 20min to Galway & Limerick, and 2hrs 45min to Cork city are all quite reasonable travel times. And there are such massive economies of scale, and connection/growth benefits, to just focusing all development on one airport if possible.

lisasimpson · 14-10-2019 9:44pm

https://www.rte.ie/news/munster/2019/1014/1083236-shannon-airport/

Chris_5339762 · 14-10-2019 9:53pm

High speed rail from Cork up to Limerick, onwards to Dublin (serving Heuston, Connolly and the Airport) and then onwards up to Belfast maybe stopping in Newry.

Solved. Close Cork and Shannon. Pie in the sky yes, but interesting. Such a link would decimate the regionals if Cork -Dublin Airport by train was < 90 mins.

Locker10a · 14-10-2019 10:46pm

Chris_5339762 wrote: »

High speed rail from Cork up to Limerick, onwards to Dublin (serving Heuston, Connolly and the Airport) and then onwards up to Belfast maybe stopping in Newry.

Solved. Close Cork and Shannon. Pie in the sky yes, but interesting. Such a link would decimate the regionals if Cork -Dublin Airport by train was < 90 mins.

Do you think business travellers going to London for perhaps a day trip would really want a 90 min train journey to Dublin if the live in Cork, and then have to get a flight after that, no thanks

Irish Steve · 14-10-2019 11:36pm

Locker10a wrote: »

Do you think business travellers going to London for perhaps a day trip would really want a 90 min train journey to Dublin if the live in Cork, and then have to get a flight after that, no thanks

That's not high speed rail! In 2019, China started testing a magnetic levitation ("maglev") prototype train that runs at 600 Km/h, and they have the largest high speed network in the world.

On that basis, Cork to Dublin would be under 30 minutes,

Having said that, and this is even more tongue in cheek, in the ultra long term, why would we confine that sort of rail system to Ireland, if the dire predictions of the climate brigade are to be believed, then we will need this sort of speed rail network to move anywhere, as air travel won't be happening over continental distances, and the brutal reality is that something like Rotterdam port could end up being built in the Shannon Estuary, with high speed rail links from there to Europe, ( forget about the Brexit nonsense for now), and that route will be used for both passengers and freight, as even large container ships will be seen as unacceptable, bunker fuel as used in such ships is way more polluting than even air travel. If that were to happen, the Shannon Estuary could then become the transatlantic travel and freight hub for Europe, linking by air to somewhere like Boston, with similar rail links within the US. To put that in context, a rail link could offer reliable journey times of less than an hour to London, that's better than the present air timings, given the hassle of "security" and the like. The construction costs would be stratospheric, but in the long term, it may be the only way to really tackle travel emissions, unless there's a new power source that we don't know about yet.

Maybe a better energy system for aircraft will be found, but somehow, I doubt that there is the political will to encourage such a change, we can't even address the stupidity of transporting single use plastic bottles of "designer" water half way across Europe, and that's only one example, and it could be taxed out of existence overnight if they really wanted to do it.

Neworder79 · 15-10-2019 9:59am

Deleted User wrote: »

Why are they allowed access the regional airport fund, I’ve been told in this topic that they aren’t a regional airport ?

They are still one of the three State airports, so outside the "Regional" airports programme.

This is a new Brexit marketing support programme as UK disruption has potential to have more impact outside the major Dublin hub so Cork and Shannon are included.

But it's pretty laughable to hear the same management and Clare politicians who like brexiteers banged the drums for independence from the 'shackles' of the DAA holding them back from true potential, now seeking regional status and not able to afford basic x-ray equipment.

Balf · 15-10-2019 10:11am

http://www.clare.fm/news/shannon-airport/delegation-attempt-secure-meeting-minister-shannon-airports-future/

It’s hoped this cross-county approach will lead to some action being taken and Independent Sixmilebridge Councillor PJ Ryan fears that unless something changes, Shannon may no longer be the dominant airport in the west.

Do we care if Knock passes out Shannon? Is that the issue?

Hotblack Desiato · 18-10-2019 11:13am

What do they want the minister to do? Kidnap Michael O'Leary until he agrees to open up some routes?

Idbatterim · 18-10-2019 12:24pm

There should be air routes between Shannon and cork to Dublin in my opinion. Why should they have to fly to London or Manchester to connect , when Dublin offers a huge amount of routes! Our airports would also get an increase in business!

Henry Ford III · 18-10-2019 12:56pm

Paris and Amsterdam would be very welcome and hopefully busy and profitable routes.

It'd not a question of throwing more money at marketing I'd suggest. Might be more a matter of kicking some ass within marketing.

yew_tree · 18-10-2019 5:18pm

Cookiemunster wrote: »

No this is what's nonsense. There are around 250,000 people living within 30 - 40 mins of Shannon. Cork and especially Kerry and Knock do not serve its catchment area. I'm all for it standing on it's own two feet, but please less of the ridiculous statements.

I’ve met people on flights out of knock from Co.Clare...

john boye · 18-10-2019 7:30pm

Idbatterim wrote: »

There should be air routes between Shannon and cork to Dublin in my opinion. Why should they have to fly to London or Manchester to connect , when Dublin offers a huge amount of routes! Our airports would also get an increase in business!

A Shannon - Dublin route would just deliver more business to Dublin, is that not literally the opposite of what they're trying to achieve?

JCX BXC · 19-10-2019 1:22pm

I've gotten a headache from skimming this thread.

marno21 · 19-10-2019 1:38pm

yew_tree wrote: »

I’ve met people on flights out of knock from Co.Clare...

I’m from Cork and I’ve flown from Knock

The Knock-Liverpool flights are well timed and usually have good deals as opposed to the Cork flights in Winter which tend to become over subscribed

JCX BXC · 19-10-2019 1:43pm

marno21 wrote: »

I’m from Cork and I’ve flown from Knock

The Knock-Liverpool flights are well timed and usually have good deals as opposed to the Cork flights in Winter which tend to become over subscribed

Some people are willing to travel further afield for flights, my neighbours flew from Belfast a few years back because it was the only place in Ireland with direct flights to that region of Turkey.

Some others wouldn't fly from anywhere other than the local airport.

lisasimpson · 23-10-2019 7:08pm

A bit of a surprise but nice to see the Vienna announcement for shannon. March to October I think. Pity it's not there for the christmas market season. Hopefully all possible avenues are used to promote this

JCX BXC · 23-10-2019 7:16pm

lisasimpson wrote: »

A bit of a surprise but nice to see the Vienna announcement for shannon. March to October I think. Pity it's not there for the christmas market season. Hopefully all possible avenues are used to promote this

Much too late for Christmas season really, however good to see. Nice to see European routes coming on stream.

The timing suggest to me that it'll mainly be an inbound route, but local advertising will be useful.

coastwatch · 23-10-2019 7:26pm

Slightly off topic, but why did the American Airlines flight emergency (chemical spill) a few days ago divert to Dublin and not Shannon?
It was reported it was 250 miles off SW coast, so Shannon would be closest landing option.

JCX BXC · 23-10-2019 7:29pm

coastwatch wrote: »

Slightly off topic, but why did the American Airlines flight emergency (chemical spill) a few days ago divert to Dublin and not Shannon?
It was reported it was 250 miles off SW coast, so Shannon would be closest landing option.

Not really the thread for it, but there's many reasons

*Shorter distance to hospital
*Easier for operations (American Airlines don't operate from Shannon this time of year)
*The descent required could have meant Dublin and Shannon were equal time, or close to apart.

That's just an example of some of the reasons.

Eric Cartman · 23-10-2019 7:34pm

I really think the only hope shannon actually has at this point is if the IDA and the government give amazon a big filthy tax deal to open a fulfilment centre in shannon and a big filthy tax deal to a cargo carrier. DHL flying planes full of products from the states etc... to shannon and all the orders for western europe being fulfilled there and shipped out again is pretty much that regions best hope for local jobs and that airport.

lisasimpson · 24-10-2019 12:35pm

Defo think there's room for a Shannon Paris route. Currently Paris is served by aer lingus and go hop from cork and today go hop announced for the summer season it will be a twice daily service. It's clear there is a strong demand for Paris in the munster region

mdmix · 24-10-2019 1:24pm

lisasimpson wrote: »

Defo think there's room for a Shannon Paris route. Currently Paris is served by aer lingus and go hop from cork and today go hop announced for the summer season it will be a twice daily service. It's clear there is a strong demand for Paris in the munster region

ya, but with aer lingus & aer france both operating that route from cork the only hope would be that ryanair will step in at shannon

How can Shannon turn its fortunes around

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