How can Shannon turn its fortunes around

HTCOne · 09-10-2019 8:31am

The runway isn’t particularly long. The whole “longest runway in Europe” is a myth and god knows where it started. Off the top of my head Prestwick and Heathrow have longer, and there’s dozens in Europe. When 10L/28R opens in DUB, there’ll be a tiny % of diversions who need that extra 90m, if any. Sure the airport already reduces fire cover during the night because the number of diversions to DUB have increased in recent years.

BZ · 09-10-2019 8:52am

HTCOne wrote: »

The runway isn’t particularly long. The whole “longest runway in Europe” is a myth and god knows where it started. Off the top of my head Prestwick and Heathrow have longer, and there’s dozens in Europe. When 10L/28R opens in DUB, there’ll be a tiny % of diversions who need that extra 90m, if any. Sure the airport already reduces fire cover during the night because the number of diversions to DUB have increased in recent years.

Incorrect once again. First off Prestwicks runway is shorter at 2987 metres while SNN is 3199 metres. Second fire cover was not reduced because of the amount of diversions to Dublin. It was reduced to CAT7 to fit the size of aircraft frequenting SNN on a daily basis and to reduce labour costs. However CAT9 is available most days with the likes of Kalitta, Omni etc operating on a nearly daily basis. it is also bumped up to CAT9 for any scheduled charters, tech stops. Look at diversions in recent weeks American and BA both having B777s divert in.

The reason the likes of BA and American are still choosing SNN over DUB for diversions is down to a better service provided due to the airport being quieter, maintenance available on the airfield and no slots required for departure.

Balf · 09-10-2019 10:09am

x567 wrote: »

.... take some pressure off DUB ...

I agree with a lot of your sentiments, but I think the "take pressure off" idea is still in that zone of thinking there's some way of squeezing business out of Dublin. Dublin is a successful airport; it's success is down to folk wanting to use it.

That has to be the foundation of Shannon's success, too.

BZ wrote: »

Incorrect once again. First off Prestwicks runway is shorter at 2987 metres while SNN is 3199 metres.

That is correct, but on the wider point its hard to find a basis for the frequent claim that Shannon's runway is especially long. Dublin's current runway is just unusually short for an airport of its significance.

Maybe Shannon's runway was unusually long back in the 1960s. But there's plenty of airports with 4,000 metre runways.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_longest_runways

09-10-2019 10:36am

Balf wrote: »

Dublin's current runway is just unusually short for an airport of its significance.[/url]

It is unusually short because of protectionist mid west TDs insisted it was shortened from the proposed length so as not to take some of Shannons traffic.

http://www.oireachtas-debates.gov.ie...606060003.html
Dáil Éireann - Volume 367 - 06 June, 1986
US Preinspection Facilities at Shannon Airport: Motion.
It is worth drawing the attention of the House to a phrase in the Minister's speech. He says that officers of the United States Immigration and Naturalisation Service would conduct in Ireland, at Shannon in the first instance, inspection of passengers and aircraft crew required by the US laws. Is it proposed to have this elsewhere and, if so, why? What the Minister said is borne out by [1481] Article IV of the agreement in the Schedule to the Bill where it says:

Preinspection may be conducted at additional locations in Ireland by agreement, expressed in writing, of both Governments.

Why should it be held anywhere else other than Shannon? Has it to do with the proposal which I regard as rather dubious in terms of public expenditure of a new runway at Dublin? For what purpose other than trans-Atlantic flights is that proposed runway required at a cost of £30 million? That proposal has been made for ten or 15 years and it never came to fruition. I do not see the operation of Dublin Airport being adversely affected by the absence of a very long runway that could take fully laden trans-Atlantic flights. We are entitled to ask why that should be the case. The context of Article IV of this draft agreement seems to suggest that, as soon as the runway is provided, these facilities will be provided in Dublin. We have a tendency at official level to think that everything must happen in Dublin and, if it is not happening in Dublin, it is not happening at all.

BZ · 09-10-2019 10:41am

Balf wrote: »

I agree with a lot of your sentiments, but I think the "take pressure off" idea is still in that zone of thinking there's some way of squeezing business out of Dublin. Dublin is a successful airport; it's success is down to folk wanting to use it.

That has to be the foundation of Shannon's success, too. That is correct, but on the wider point its hard to find a basis for the frequent claim that Shannon's runway is especially long. Dublin's current runway is just unusually short for an airport of its significance.

Maybe Shannon's runway was unusually long back in the 1960s. But there's plenty of airports with 4,000 metre runways.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_longest_runways

Apologies I meant to say I agree on the point about longest runway in Europe.

BobMc · 09-10-2019 12:33pm

for me personally its the drive time to Dublin that puts me off, roads are excellent etc. but lets say I want to get this mornings Alicante flight. Leaving 10.10, be at the airport for what time 8am, with parking and rush hour traffic.

A crash on the M50 delays you? So what time do you leave the Limerick region ? average is about 2hr 10/15mins or so with normal traffic I'd imagine any hold up could add considerably to that, so in my book your looking at a 5.30am departure.

what about a flight time that makes you hit dead centre rush hour ! its hassle

As someone mentioned earlier would holiday flights releave some pressure from dublin.

easypazz · 09-10-2019 1:04pm

Stovepipe wrote: »

Shannon's location and it's long runway is a strategic asset to the State so, no matter what, it will be kept going.

Nonsense, what is so strategic important to the state about the location?

Shannons catchment area is immediately served by Cork, Kerry and Knock airports, with the motorway to Cork and Adare bypass making those closer.

What is the big deal about having a long runway that makes it a strategic asset to the state?

Cookiemunster · 09-10-2019 1:22pm

easypazz wrote: »

Nonsense, what is so strategic important to the state about the location?

Shannons catchment area is immediately served by Cork, Kerry and Knock airports, with the motorway to Cork and Adare bypass making those closer.

What is the big deal about having a long runway that makes it a strategic asset to the state?

No this is what's nonsense. There are around 250,000 people living within 30 - 40 mins of Shannon. Cork and especially Kerry and Knock do not serve its catchment area. I'm all for it standing on it's own two feet, but please less of the ridiculous statements.

Van.Bosch · 09-10-2019 1:30pm

BobMc wrote: »

for me personally its the drive time to Dublin that puts me off, roads are excellent etc. but lets say I want to get this mornings Alicante flight. Leaving 10.10, be at the airport for what time 8am, with parking and rush hour traffic.

A crash on the M50 delays you? So what time do you leave the Limerick region ? average is about 2hr 10/15mins or so with normal traffic I'd imagine any hold up could add considerably to that, so in my book your looking at a 5.30am departure.

what about a flight time that makes you hit dead centre rush hour ! its hassle

As someone mentioned earlier would holiday flights releave some pressure from dublin.

Genuine question - given I agree with the hassle you noted, would you take a feeder flight SNN-DUB above that? Assuming it was well timed etc?

tototoe · 09-10-2019 1:47pm

Van.Bosch wrote: »

Genuine question - given I agree with the hassle you noted, would you take a feeder flight SNN-DUB above that? Assuming it was well timed etc?

Personally I'd prefer not to go to Dublin at all. Despite terminal 2 it is still an awful airport for a passenger. I go via London if I can avoid dub....but that's just me....and even aside from driving or bussing to dublin

x567 · 09-10-2019 2:03pm

Van.Bosch wrote: »

Genuine question - given I agree with the hassle you noted, would you take a feeder flight SNN-DUB above that? Assuming it was well timed etc?

I probably would (and did in the dim and distant past), but doubt it would ever happen now as the DUB slots would be more valuable for other routes as Dublin's successful growth continues.

Where connections are well-timed and not too much more expensive, I have often chosen to fly from SNN and go via LHR or JFK/BOS (when going west) rather than face the journey to and through Dublin for a 'direct' flight. My drive to or from DUB is just under 2 hours to give context.

That said I have been a very frequent traveller for many years with all of the benefits of fast-track, airport familiarity, etc. and understand that less frequent fliers would not take the same view.

easypazz · 09-10-2019 2:09pm

Cookiemunster wrote: »

No this is what's nonsense. There are around 250,000 people living within 30 - 40 mins of Shannon. Cork and especially Kerry and Knock do not serve its catchment area. I'm all for it standing on it's own two feet, but please less of the ridiculous statements.

But how is it such an important strategic location to the state that no matter what it will be kept open.

I am not advocating it be closed or anything like but, if it became unviable commercially and say for argument sake most of the existing carriers left, then I doubt the state would keep it open for strategic reasons.

Ditto the runway, what is the strategic reason for the government to keep it open?

They seem ok to let Galway, Sligo and Waterford wilt away to nothing.

Balf · 09-10-2019 2:37pm

BobMc wrote: »

As someone mentioned earlier would holiday flights releave some pressure from dublin.

Leaving aside the "pressure" idea, and whether more holiday flights would still leave Shannon with an even more pronounced seasonality issue, there's no particular reason to stop carriers offering holiday flights from Shannon.

So can anyone account for why they don't?

tototoe wrote: »

I go via London if I can avoid dub....but that's just me....

Not meaning to be cheeky, but it pretty much is just you. Business in DUB is good because, tbh, people use it. Busy, very busy, but that reflects just how many people do choose it.

If folk were gasping for any alternative, Shannon would be booming.

Nijmegen · 09-10-2019 2:43pm

If Shannon was viable for large scale passenger operations, it would have large scale passenger operations. Particularly in this era of dynamic LCCs, who can and have turned a whole variety of obscure ex-military and part-military airfields into thriving cattle market terminals.

I think there could be something in rebranding around the wild Atlantic way. But it sounds like management are focused on the good old blame Dublin approach.

Perhaps the real future of Shannon is on the services side of things. As already mentioned it’s a good airport for TATL diversions and has a few decent operations already for servicing the industry. A big play here might be a decent idea.

Alternatively the government could lobby for some post-Brexit Airbus investment...!

easypazz · 09-10-2019 3:13pm

Nijmegen wrote: »

Perhaps the real future of Shannon is on the services side of things. As already mentioned it’s a good airport for TATL diversions and has a few decent operations already for servicing the industry. A big play here might be a decent idea.

Not sure what the point would be in focusing on providing an airport for TATL diversions, the small income from them probably amounts to nothing more than a handy bonus each year.

As regards the servicing side of the industry, that is definitely an area where they can focus, the profits from which could be offset against the operating costs of the passenger side of things.

Cookiemunster · 09-10-2019 3:23pm

easypazz wrote: »

But how is it such an important strategic location to the state that no matter what it will be kept open.

I am not advocating it be closed or anything like but, if it became unviable commercially and say for argument sake most of the existing carriers left, then I doubt the state would keep it open for strategic reasons.

Ditto the runway, what is the strategic reason for the government to keep it open?

They seem ok to let Galway, Sligo and Waterford wilt away to nothing.

I never mentioned anything about government strategy. I was referring to the ridiculous part of the post about Kerry and Knock serving it's catchment area.

easypazz wrote: »

Not sure what the point would be in focusing on providing an airport for TATL diversions, the small income from them probably amounts to nothing more than a handy bonus each year.

As regards the servicing side of the industry, that is definitely an area where they can focus, the profits from which could be offset against the operating costs of the passenger side of things.

Shannon isn't doing as well as it could be doing, but it's still easily out performing Knock and Kerry. Plus it's already got sizeable MRO and leasing businesses based there and there's a huge widebody hanger almost finished construction. It's not in danger of going under any time soon.

Balf · 09-10-2019 3:26pm

Nijmegen wrote: »

I think there could be something in rebranding around the wild Atlantic way. But it sounds like management are focused on the good old blame Dublin approach.

For better or worse, the Airport has decided not to rebrand

https://www.clareecho.ie/wild-atlantic-way-rebranding-of-airport-wont-take-off/

Mr Thomas noted that “The Wild Atlantic Way encompasses six formal regions covering nine counties down the entire Western seaboard”. He said six airports were located along this route, Donegal, Sligo, Knock, Shannon, Kerry and Cork, “Shannon Airport therefore cannot be considered the only Wild Atlantic Way airport, nor be branded accordingly”.

“Shannon Airport is an internationally recognised brand in its own right, its brand proposition and images are strong. Our research concludes that rebranding would be a regressive step for the Airport, diluting our existing strong brand equity. The Shannon brand is trusted and credible; known internationally as the place where Duty Free shopping began and where the first free zone was established. Furthermore, a rebrand were it to be approved is a very expensive process estimated to cost millions of euro”.

Matthew who has been in the role since June 2016 acknowledged the “real asset” the Wild Atlantic Way offers. He pointed out that Fáilte Ireland’s Wild Atlantic Way website “has an expansive section” on Shannon and Shannon Airport’s website “has a full page dedicated” to the tourism initiative.

Cllr McMahon’s motion requested the Council liaise with Shannon Group to develop “a more effective strategy” to promote the airport. According to Thomas, they “developed a clear and effective strategy to actively promote the airport locally, nationally and internationally”.

09-10-2019 3:52pm

Kerry, Cork and Knock serve their own catchment areas, improving and improved roads enable people to choose between airports. So Shannon is now competing for Knock, Cork and Kerry passengers as all catchment areas overlap in one way or another.

Previously it was heavily suggested that Shannon breaking away from the daa would be the saviour of the airport. It has proven incorrect. Now people are suggesting changing its name will save the airport, grabbing at straws much.

Rather than people looking at why they personally use Shannon over Dublin people should be looking at why people use Dublin, Cork, Kerry and Knock over Shannon. It is one thing having a long runway and an underused airport but passengers don’t care about those things. People need to stop looking at why airlines aren’t serving the airport and asking why passengers aren’t using the airport. Airlines aren’t serving the airport because passengers aren’t using it.

The halcyon days of Shannon airport being a big airport have passed I’m afraid. No amount of leg ups will make it anything other than a small quiet regional airport I’m afraid.

As an alternate to Dublin people should be supporting Cork airport, it seems to have found its way and has ever increasing connections.

BZ · 09-10-2019 4:00pm

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Kerry, Cork and Knock serve their own catchment areas, improving and improved roads enable people to choose between airports. So Shannon is now competing for Knock, Cork and Kerry passengers as all catchment areas overlap in one way or another.

Previously it was heavily suggested that Shannon breaking away from the daa would be the saviour of the airport. It has proven incorrect. Now people are suggesting changing its name will save the airport, grabbing at straws much.

Rather than people looking at why they personally use Shannon over Dublin people should be looking at why people use Dublin, Cork, Kerry and Knock over Shannon. It is one thing having a long runway and an underused airport but passengers don’t care about those things. People need to stop looking at why airlines aren’t serving the airport and asking why passengers aren’t using the airport. Airlines aren’t serving the airport because passengers aren’t using it.

The halcyon days of Shannon airport being a big airport have passed I’m afraid. No amount of leg ups will make it anything other than a small quiet regional airport I’m afraid.

As an alternate to Dublin people should be supporting Cork airport, it seems to have found its way and has ever increasing connections.

Shannon is an international airport not regional. Why would people from Clare, limerick and galway use Cork, its a worse journey than Dublin.
Shannon will survive but it will be a long time before it breaks the the 2 let alone 2.5million mark again. With the right marketing team, the correct CEO and a new board the airport can be turned around.

HTCOne · 09-10-2019 4:52pm

BZ wrote: »

. It was reduced to CAT7 to fit the size of aircraft frequenting SNN on a daily basis and to reduce labour costs. However CAT9 is available most days with the likes of Kalitta, Omni etc operating on a nearly daily basis. it is also bumped up to CAT9 for any scheduled charters, tech stops. Look at diversions in recent weeks American and BA both having B777s divert in.

The reason the likes of BA and American are still choosing SNN over DUB for diversions is down to a better service provided due to the airport being quieter, maintenance available on the airfield and no slots required for departure.

Interesting, so why am I regularly getting Notams advising Cat 7 not available during peak eastbound flow?

And indeed I was incorrect about PIK, it seems LGW and LHR are the only civilian airports with runways significantly longer than 3,200m. I’d still love to know where the nonsense about longest runway in Europe came from though.

The airport couldn’t even sustain CDG flights (I was a regular user). For whatever reason people are voting with their feet. Bar the Northeast US & London, it’s an absolute pain in the arse to get anywhere, with 1 & 2 weekly flights here and there. It’s my local airport & I’d love to be able to use it for a long weekend in Rome or Paris but that’s no longer possible. That isn’t the fault of the airlines or Dublin airport, it’s people in the Shannon catchment who used to use it but now prefer saving a few quid or having more choice of flights via DUB.

The likes of Loganair, Stobart and Flybe would be ideal customers for the airport to pursue imo, maybe HOP too.

BZ · 09-10-2019 5:02pm

HTCOne wrote: »

Interesting, so why am I regularly getting Notams advising Cat 7 only available during peak eastbound flow?

And indeed I was incorrect about PIK, it seems LGW and LHR are the only civilian airports with runways significantly longer than 3,200m. I’d still love to know where the nonsense about longest runway in Europe came from though.

If the notam says CAT 7 only available during peak eastbound flow this is to coincide with the arrival of the US traffic which is mainly 757 traffic into the airport. CAT9 is available when requested which is most days given the charter and cargo traffic.
Europe's longest runway was probably donkeys years ago when it first opened but that has not been the case for some time.

HTCOne · 09-10-2019 5:05pm

BZ wrote: »

If the notam says CAT 7 only available during peak eastbound flow this is to coincide with the arrival of the US traffic which is mainly 757 traffic into the airport. CAT9 is available when requested which is most days given the charter and cargo traffic.
Europe's longest runway was probably donkeys years ago when it first opened but that has not been the case for some time.

Sorry I mistyped, I meant to say CAT9 NOT available. I know the airport only handles scheduled 757s & smaller during these hours, but it means any 767 or larger aircraft needs to head elsewhere in a diversion scenario.

BZ · 09-10-2019 5:40pm

HTCOne wrote: »

Sorry I mistyped, I meant to say CAT9 NOT available. I know the airport only handles scheduled 757s & smaller during these hours, but it means any 767 or larger aircraft needs to head elsewhere in a diversion scenario.

Bumping it up from 7 to 9 can be achieved quiet easily in an emergency situation at this time as its change over time for the fire service and staff can be asked to stay on from what I understand.

easypazz · 09-10-2019 6:08pm

Cookiemunster wrote: »

I never mentioned anything about government strategy. I was referring to the ridiculous part of the post about Kerry and Knock serving it's catchment area.

Shannon isn't doing as well as it could be doing, but it's still easily out performing Knock and Kerry. Plus it's already got sizeable MRO and leasing businesses based there and there's a huge widebody hanger almost finished construction. It's not in danger of going under any time soon.

I was replying to somebody else who claimed both Shannons location and the length of its runway made it of such strategic importance to the government that it couldn't close it.

I still can't see how either its location or the length of its runway make it of strategic importance.

tototoe · 09-10-2019 6:36pm

Have to say in the last year or two the marketing of the airport has really slid imo.
They used to be really good at it. Facebook and the likes will only get you so far amidst all the noise on those channels. It was shocking they had no presence at the Irish open in lahinch as just one example.

Henry Ford III · 10-10-2019 12:23pm

I flew Snn-Ewr and back with United recently.

The airport is a doddle to use. Parking is easy and is decent value too. Check in relatively quick and security and the US Customs and Pre inspection very efficient.

Clearly the airport is under used. I'm not sure is the issue a pure lack of demand or poor marketing but something needs to be done soon to reverse the slide.

p.s. Cork is fine but it can't handle big planes on long haul routes. Knock is not comparable really.

easypazz · 10-10-2019 12:38pm

Henry Ford III wrote: »

I flew Snn-Ewr and back with United recently.

The airport is a doddle to use. Parking is easy and is decent value too. Check in relatively quick and security and the US Customs and Pre inspection very efficient.

Clearly the airport is under used. I'm not sure is the issue a pure lack of demand or poor marketing but something needs to be done soon to reverse the slide.

p.s. Cork is fine but it can't handle big planes on long haul routes. Knock is not comparable really.

Long term the government really need to increase investment in the Midwest region and focus development away from Dublin, because it is totally overcrowded on every level.

Balf · 10-10-2019 1:00pm

easypazz wrote: »

Long term the government really need to increase investment in the Midwest region and focus development away from Dublin, because it is totally overcrowded on every level.

Again, I think the focus on Dublin is unhelpful. Dublin is grand - don't worry about Dublin. "totally overcrowded on every level" is an empty meme; it has nothing to do with any solution for Shannon.

What is it that the Midwest needs that it doesn't already have? If Shannon traffic is lower than we'd like, it has nothing to do with lack of investment. You'll find many confirming that Shannon is "easy to use" as it has so much unused capacity at present. There's actually no particular need for increased investment, no constraint that prevents more services from locating there.

There's a lack of passengers and, apparently, the strange sight of many people from Galway, Clare and Limerick inexplicably choosing to fly from Dublin (apparently unaware that it's totally overcrowded at every level, and it would make far more sense for them to avail of any possible alternative to Dublin.)

So screw Government. Mid-West local authorities and Chambers of Commerce, and other local groups should be exhorting people to use the goddamn airport.

BobMc · 10-10-2019 1:30pm

Van.Bosch wrote: »

Genuine question - given I agree with the hassle you noted, would you take a feeder flight SNN-DUB above that? Assuming it was well timed etc?

I would and think its a great idea, One check, remaining airside,

Frequent cheap connects up and down,

I just think DUB ended up wrong side of dublin to best serve us from outside the pale.

10-10-2019 1:58pm

BobMc wrote: »

I would and think its a great idea, One check, remaining airside,

Frequent cheap connects up and down,

I just think DUB ended up wrong side of dublin to best serve us from outside the pale.

Yeah why weren't they thinking of this sort of thing in 1939 !

How can Shannon turn its fortunes around

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