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How can Shannon turn its fortunes around

  • 06-10-2019 11:41am
    #1
    Registered Users Posts: 1,797 ✭✭✭


    Still numbers declining for shannon compared to Dublin and Cork..
    Surely with the motorway developments from Galway to Limerick and the M8 it should have been able to capitalised on this. Plus it has the advantages of a longer runway than Cork.
    In April flew one friday to Edinburgh. Apart from a flight to New York after it there was going to be no other departure for nearly 3 hours.
    Yes the Boeing issue I'd out of their control the Toronto route was one with potential.


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Comments

  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 4,119 Mod ✭✭✭✭Locker10a


    What happened to it becoming a cargo hub?


  • Registered Users Posts: 226 ✭✭TPMP


    I always use Shannon when going transatlantic. Flight times to other destinations however are always a pain unless you're going to London. I live beside the airport but unfortunately have to use Dublin to go to Tenerife next week as I don't want to go on a Thursday and take 3 days off work.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,743 ✭✭✭EchoIndia


    Locker10a wrote: »
    What happened to it becoming a cargo hub?


    Who would want to use it as a cargo hub? Europe is already well-served with such hubs and they are relatively centrally placed, not on the very edge of the continent.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,987 ✭✭✭c.p.w.g.w


    TPMP wrote: »
    I always use Shannon when going transatlantic. Flight times to other destinations however are always a pain unless you're going to London. I live beside the airport but unfortunately have to use Dublin to go to Tenerife next week as I don't want to go on a Thursday and take 3 days off work.

    If your going to NYC they keep cancelling flights and putting people on the Dublin return flight.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,369 ✭✭✭Skuxx


    c.p.w.g.w wrote: »
    If your going to NYC they keep cancelling flights and putting people on the Dublin return flight.

    To say they "keep cancelling flights" is a bit of an exaggeration to be fair. For sure it has happened in the past a few times, but looking back over the last 3 months of flight radar history for the flight I can't see a single cancellation!

    I have used the flight quite a bit this year and my issue with it isn't the risk of cancellation, its the awful 757's they use!


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  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    I don’t think there is to be honest. I think Shannon is slowly lowering itself to its natural level of traffic.

    The motorways being built won’t suck passengers in as much as facilitate people to get to Cork and Knock as easily.

    People beg for routes, airlines start routes, no one uses the routes, airline cancels the route. Rinse and repeat year after year.


  • Registered Users Posts: 701 ✭✭✭BZ


    It's not all bad news Air Canada will be back again next year providing the MAX issues are sorted. Talks of added European route by EI in the mornings while the second A321will be on the ground.Certain areas are performing strongly such as transit business and GA traffic with it being a very strong year for these.

    In terms of changing things get a clear out of the higher management and board. Rose Hynes should not of been appointed for another year and the department of transport are squarely to blame for this. Marketing department requires a major shake up. The airport needs to be more aggressive when it comes to marketing and the areas they are aiming at.
    Ryanair cancelled three routes last week that were performing well. The airport needsto grow a pair and to get away from Ryanair, aim to other airlines and European low cost / legacy carriers. Lufthansa for frankfurt being an example that has worked.

    Dublin will always suck in the majority of traffic but that doesn't mean that Shannon and other airports on the island can't have a share.It may be a small share but its about getting out their and marketing and selling the airport and its entry to the west and Wild Atlantic Way. And one last thing as someone who lives close by if routes are provided locals must support them. I've encountered a lot of people who say I saved a 100euro flying from Dublin but forget the hassle, the driving or bus costs, food etc.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,987 ✭✭✭c.p.w.g.w


    Skuxx wrote: »
    To say they "keep cancelling flights" is a bit of an exaggeration to be fair. For sure it has happened in the past a few times, but looking back over the last 3 months of flight radar history for the flight I can't see a single cancellation!

    I have used the flight quite a bit this year and my issue with it isn't the risk of cancellation, its the awful 757's they use!

    In march alone it happened 5 times in a 2 week period. Know people working in the airport and taxi driver who does the airport as a neighbor for my sister. It happened me too in Match


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 4,119 Mod ✭✭✭✭Locker10a


    c.p.w.g.w wrote: »
    In march alone it happened 5 times in a 2 week period. Know people working in the airport and taxi driver who does the airport as a neighbor for my sister. It happened me too in Match

    So obviously there was some operational disruption during that period, and it’s barely happened since.
    Shannon routes will be among the first to be upgraded to the brand new Aer Lingus a321neo aircraft serving long haul and selected London routes from this winter.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,035 ✭✭✭rivegauche


    What is its purpose? If it is to serve the people of the Mid West then adjust landing and passenger fees and attract in as many ATR72s and Q400s as they can. There are operators out there looking to fly profitable routes that the LCCs are too big to serve...or just keep lobbying to keep charges at Dublin high and see where that gets them.

    https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/business/dominance-of-dublin-airport-harms-regions-report-954590.html


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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,797 ✭✭✭lisasimpson


    100% agree in relation to the marketing department. One of the cheapest and easiest marketing tools they have is under utilised... social media. If you look at their Instagram page for example it looks more like a Munster rugby supporters club page rather than an airport page ( and before anyone says anything yes I know they sponsor munster)
    A comment people would say about shannon is young people don't use it. Here this is where social media should be used for. For the few European destinations it serves I have only seen one post about a Christmas market trip from shannon. Also your 20 and 30 somethings are more likely to holiday in long haul destination. I've never seen them plug the transatlantic destinations as a transfer hub to other destination in the US central or south america. It's not hard just go onto the airlines website and see where they have connection to from New York etc.

    It's clear Ryanair are not overly interested in Shannon. They pulled Ibiza after 1 season even they it was popular with young people. Time to target some of the other airline in Europe

    Also I think there is potential east. There is quite a significant Indian population living and working in the midwest. Along with the amount of Irish in the UAE and Oz. I know Emerites recently said they aren't focused on secondary airports but again maybe another airline

    They should take another look again at renaming the airport. Internationally v few would know where Shannon is or where it's near. Remaining it something like Shannon the wild atlantic way airport would go along way in overcoming this
    Actually on the talk of social media whoever runs its facebook page was v unprofessional a few weeks ago in their reply to someone who commented on the lack of routes


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,035 ✭✭✭chicorytip


    The "Shannon Stopover" ruined the status of the airport and resulted in the creation of not one single extra job not alone in Shannon Town but in any area of the entire western seaboard. Parochial, backyard, gombeenism at it's worst.


  • Registered Users Posts: 288 ✭✭tippilot


    It's clear Ryanair are not overly interested in Shannon. They pulled Ibiza after 1 season even they it was popular with young people. Time to target some of the other airline in Europe

    You are 100% spot on with the rest of your post but I must disagree with the above.

    Every airport needs a staple and without Ryanair Shannon would be a ghost town. Load factors are apparently good even though there may be a sense of boredom creeping in among the travelling public with the routes on offer. Given that Ryanair are expanding out of every other Irish airport, the question must be asked what are Shannon airport doing differently? Why for example was a highly popular year round route like Berlin moved to Kerry? The airport wont support competition on routes like BHX and EDI, yet most prospective passengers will choose the drive to Dublin over premium pricing. Though it may be a hangover from the last time Ryanair dramatically downsized at Shannon, such thinking prioritises a pointlesss minimal airline diversity over passenger numbers and airport sustainability.

    While the airport should continue to search for new partners, it most definitely should engage more actively with an airline with ready made access to a huge number of European destinations. The two approaches are not mutually exclusive and it should be borne in mind that any further contraction of services by FR would more than likely lead to a loss of a based aircraft, something that would have massive consequences for passenger throughput and employment at the airport, both directly and indirectly.

    While the airport seems to be doing well from ancillary revenue such as aircraft parking and private jet technical stops, the approach to developing passenger traffic leaves a lot to be desired.

    There was talk over the last few weeks that Omni were trialing a German airport over Shannon and if that comes to pass it would be a disaster for the airport.

    Shannon has many unique selling points for passengers. It is a highly family friendly, low stress airport with short queuing times and walking distances. It is infrastructurally well connected in our non public transport car-centric society.

    Definitely a Wild Atlantic Way rebranding would be a great idea and would go a long way to developing more inward focused routes. There is also huge potential for developing city break routes like Rome, Paris or Prague.

    A change of approach or personnel is certainly needed at this point.


  • Registered Users Posts: 532 ✭✭✭xtradel


    Their mobile app is really cheap looking with very limited info for flights and services available. I agree with what was said above that a complete rebrand and relaunch is required including new app, website etc.


  • Registered Users Posts: 18,772 ✭✭✭✭Del2005


    tippilot wrote: »
    Shannon has many unique selling points for passengers. It is a highly family friendly, low stress airport with short queuing times and walking distances. It is infrastructurally well connected in our non public transport car-centric society.

    If it starts getting more passengers and routes then it won't have it's unique selling point of being family friendly, low stress and shot queues anymore.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,797 ✭✭✭lisasimpson


    Del2005 wrote: »
    If it starts getting more passengers and routes then it won't have it's unique selling point of being family friendly, low stress and shot queues anymore.

    It still could be family friendly. With 2.6 millions passengers this year Cork airport is a dream to use with kids compared to dublin so shannon should be using this as a selling point esp with the sensory room they opened last year


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,606 ✭✭✭gctest50


    Bulldoze it and turn it into a high speed train hub


  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    What is the true figure for passenger numbers for Shannon in 2018 ?

    Shannon airport claims a very round figure of 1.86 million but the CSO stat is 1,677,661. Corks number is only 5,000 up on the CSO figure, Dublin 160,000 up but over 31.5 million passengers though.

    Does Shannon include tech stopover passenger numbers in their figure ?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 667 ✭✭✭Balf


    Does Shannon include tech stopover passenger numbers in their figure ?
    I'd expect that any passenger who disembarks or embarks is counted. So if 100 people get off a plane, walk around the terminal building, and get back on the plane I'd take it that's 200 passengers in the numbers.

    As to the broader issue, I think Shannon needs to look to its strengths. Their Chair was in the Oireachtas last week making the kind of statements that are only to be expected from politicians, but not what sound like a commercial strategy.
    https://www.oireachtas.ie/en/debates/debate/joint_committee_on_transport_tourism_and_sport/2019-10-02/

    Dublin had 95% of all new business coming into Ireland between 2012 and now. That means that of any 1 million passengers, Dublin takes 950,000 and the rest of us take 50,000 between us.
    Dublin doesn't "take" 95% of new business. It attracts 95% of new business.

    Since 2010, Dublin has attracted 13 million more passengers. That's about four times the peak Shannon number. It's business Shannon never had, nor was able to attract. And its really best for Shannon not to fixate on whatever Dublin is achieving.

    There focus still seems to be to "drive" business out of Dublin. There's no point in trying. The business will just evaporate. And the negative campaigning helps no-one. I commented on another thread on this point. Its ironic that Limerick Chamber of Commerce pays a Danish consultancy called Copenhagen Economics to say that Dublin Airport has too large a market share, when Copenhagen Airport has much the same share to the Danish market.

    In fairness to Shannon, they do seem to be trying to make that connection to regional travellers - sponsorship of the Munster team being a centrepiece of that. It really does come down to local travellers actually choosing the airport in preference to Dublin.


  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Thanks Balf that's what I thought alright.
    Dublin doesn't "take" 95% of new business. It attracts 95% of new business.

    That is a very good point. The narrative from Shannon and many people online is that Dublin is taking this traffic like it was proposed as an all Ireland route and the airports were bidding for it:rolleyes:. The suggestion from many is that these routes should be shared around the airports in Ireland :rolleyes:. That is not how this works at all. Dublin as Balf has said attracts these routes.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 8,393 ✭✭✭Markcheese


    gctest50 wrote: »
    Bulldoze it and turn it into a high speed train hub

    Interesting proposal... Not really on any high speed rail lines though, and not much of a hub location either really...

    Slava ukraini 🇺🇦



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,393 ✭✭✭Markcheese


    Thanks Balf that's what I thought alright.



    That is a very good point. The narrative from Shannon and many people online is that Dublin is taking this traffic like it was proposed as an all Ireland route and the airports were bidding for it:rolleyes:. The suggestion from many is that these routes should be shared around the airports in Ireland :rolleyes:. That is not how this works at all. Dublin as Balf has said attracts these routes.

    Our entire road network hubs off Dublin, and it happens to be the main population centre...
    Any other airport just can't compete.. So If you want to start a flight, Dublin is within 3 hours of most of the population, nowhere else comes close...

    Slava ukraini 🇺🇦



  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,346 ✭✭✭easypazz


    Markcheese wrote: »
    Our entire road network hubs off Dublin, and it happens to be the main population centre...
    Any other airport just can't compete.. So If you want to start a flight, Dublin is within 3 hours of most of the population, nowhere else comes close...

    Also close to Belfast, and on the right side of Dublin for Nordies.


  • Registered Users Posts: 854 ✭✭✭HTCOne


    tippilot wrote: »

    There was talk over the last few weeks that Omni were trialing a German airport over Shannon and if that comes to pass it would be a disaster for the airport.

    They’ve been using Hahn lately for a number of flights. They left Shannon altogether around 2012 or 13 IIRC in favour of Bucharest before returning. When the Yanks give up on Iraq, Syria and Afghanistan altogether (which is getting increasingly likely) then these flights will cease anyway.


  • Registered Users Posts: 701 ✭✭✭BZ


    HTCOne wrote: »
    They’ve been using Hahn lately for a number of flights. They left Shannon altogether around 2012 or 13 IIRC in favour of Bucharest before returning. When the Yanks give up on Iraq, Syria and Afghanistan altogether (which is getting increasingly likely) then these flights will cease anyway.

    Hahn only temporary. Will be a long tíme before the yanks give up moving troops around the world.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,979 ✭✭✭Stovepipe


    Shannon's location and it's long runway is a strategic asset to the State so, no matter what, it will be kept going.


  • Registered Users Posts: 184 ✭✭x567


    I think Balf has hit the nail on the head above in that "...it really does come down to local travellers actually choosing the airport in preference to Dublin".

    It is good to see services like the now twice-weekly Lufthansa summer one slowly gaining a foothold, but they do need to be promoted and supported locally. It would be nice to see other European operators come in - maybe Vueling would be a fit, at least seasonally; and a new EI A320 service whilst the 321NEO does the 380/381 rotation is a good opportunity for growth.

    There was some discussion about SNN's viability on another thread a while ago - my post to that (repeated below) still holds true:

    "I agree with much of the recent discussion above. Whilst Shannon does need to be independently viable and absolutely has to be managed with that mind-set, the airport is, however, an important national asset, at least in my view. Its runway length, diversion capability (pretty frequently used by weather diversions from Dublin and Cork as well as the transatlantic emergencies) and USPC abilities are significant attributes that make it important to keep Shannon active and thriving. It also has a reasonably significant proportion of the country connected to it by motorway these days – lack of an M20 notwithstanding; and parking that is extensive and affordable compared to Dublin.

    The airport’s success with transatlantic flights in the summer season is commendable, no doubt building on the impressive Wild Atlantic Way marketing for O&D’s. I have noticed quite a lot of transfer traffic from these flights to the London EI flights though, so there must be some transfer demand there. I hope that both of the EI routes to the USA are given a fair chance to succeed in this market and don’t continue to be somewhat sacrificial when there are airframe shortages elsewhere as they seem to have been in the recent past.

    Accepting that EI will want to focus on building Dublin as their hub for efficiency reasons, its current capacity constraints do make me wonder whether some of EI’s O&D holiday traffic - bucket & spade routes and maybe Orlando could make a little more of SNN and take some pressure off DUB to allow them to focus more on transatlantic business and transfer traffic. A bit like BA and VS do by using LGW for a fairly high proportion of their sunshine routes, many of which attract passengers from across the UK rather than just from London and the South-East"


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,476 ✭✭✭Noxegon


    x567 wrote: »
    Accepting that EI will want to focus on building Dublin as their hub for efficiency reasons, its current capacity constraints do make me wonder whether some of EI’s O&D holiday traffic - bucket & spade routes and maybe Orlando could make a little more of SNN and take some pressure off DUB to allow them to focus more on transatlantic business and transfer traffic. A bit like BA and VS do by using LGW for a fairly high proportion of their sunshine routes, many of which attract passengers from across the UK rather than just from London and the South-East"

    You're forgetting that a sizeable percentage of those heading to Heathrow will be coming from inside the M25 – and thus their journey time to Gatwick will not be radically different to Heathrow.

    The same is not true for DUB vs SNN.

    I'd also quote a fact from the Gatwick website: "Gatwick has the largest rail catchment of any UK airport and 15 million people - more than a quarter of the population of England - can access Gatwick by road or rail within 60 minutes.". I've no idea what the comparable figure is for Shannon, but I'd be surprised if it was seven figures.

    I develop Superior Solitaire when I'm not procrastinating on boards.ie.



  • Registered Users Posts: 184 ✭✭x567


    Noxegon wrote: »
    You're forgetting that a sizeable percentage of those heading to Heathrow will be coming from inside the M25 – and thus their journey time to Gatwick will not be radically different to Heathrow.

    I'm not sure that it would be a sizeable percentage. From my own observations (I've used Gatwick a lot over the years) it seems to get holiday travellers from all over the UK and not just London and the Southeast. It's also not that easy to get to quickly unless you live in or to the South of London.

    Their 'fact' about a quarter of the 67m Uk population getting there within an hour is probably a little over-stated; but you're right in that Shannon's catchment and connectivity isn't comparable. It is a relatively easy drive from quite a few parts of the country however, and the parking at Shannon is convenient and affordable.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,645 ✭✭✭yer man!


    The airport desperately needs to connect to 1 or 2 more hubs like Amsterdam or Paris. I myself am from the west coast but live in the Netherlands, going home I absolutely dread another 2 hour journey to the other side of the country. I would be willing to pay the premium to fly into the place as Dublin is an absolute pain and is heavily congested to get to, to transition through and depart from. My flights out of Dub are waiting on the tarmac for up to 30 minutes on a regular basis now. Shannon is an absolute dream in comparison.


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