Do you think nurses will get their payrise?

03-02-2019 12:38pm

tayto lover wrote: »

According to their spokeswoman - UK, Canada, Australia, Saudi Arabia etc.
Did you not see the photos of the nurses abroad supporting them?

Well I know for a fact that they earn more than UK and Australian nurses. I'm not going to go searching for Canadian and... Saudi (are you serious?) nurses salaries. The first two is enough to let me know they are talking **** and telling lies.

Graces7 · 03-02-2019 12:40pm

Mad_maxx wrote: »

They have the support of the general public, makes sense they double down

Most Irish people would support nurses if they were looking for 250 k per annum

Why?

Graces7 · 03-02-2019 12:42pm

Achasanai wrote: »

I'd rather have well-paid nurses working reasonable hours when I'm next undergoing an operation. Long-term thinking rather than short-term gain.

They are well paid. And they do work reasonable hours. And they claim that this is not about pay?

03-02-2019 12:45pm

tayto lover wrote: »

According to their spokeswoman - UK, Canada, Australia, Saudi Arabia etc.
Did you not see the photos of the nurses abroad supporting them?

You are badly mistaken.

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Shame on the nurses using sick people to further their fake propaganda

Mad_maxx · 03-02-2019 12:48pm

tayto lover wrote: »

According to their spokeswoman - UK, Canada, Australia, Saudi Arabia etc.
Did you not see the photos of the nurses abroad supporting them?

They most certainly are not paid more in the UK, no public servants are

Mad_maxx · 03-02-2019 12:51pm

Sergio Georgini wrote: »

Well I know for a fact that they earn more than UK and Australian nurses. I'm not going to go searching for Canadian and... Saudi (are you serious?) nurses salaries. The first two is enough to let me know they are talking **** and telling lies.

Australia is just about the highest wage nation on the planet, its been growing for 26 years straight, nurses are higher paid there but its silly to think just because Australia pays more that we should, sure nurses in Greece could say the same

03-02-2019 12:52pm

Mad_maxx wrote: »

Australia is just about the highest wage nation on the planet, its been growing for 26 years straight, nurses are higher paid there but its silly to think just because Australia pays more that we should, sure nurses in Greece could say the same

Despite what you've said, they aren't higher paid than in Ireland. End of story. The figures are very easy to find.

Mad_maxx · 03-02-2019 12:54pm

Graces7 wrote: »

Why?

Because we have a multi century tradition of providing nurses for various countries, to not support the nurses is to turn your back on your mother , grandmother, aunt

We have a deep sentimental and cultural effection for nurses and an iron clad narative prevails, hence why complete untruths like low pay and low staff numbers dominate

Mad_maxx · 03-02-2019 12:56pm

Sergio Georgini wrote: »

Despite what you've said, they aren't higher paid than in Ireland. End of story. The figures are very easy to find.

I'm open to correction, if nurses in Ireland are higher paid than nurses in Australia, then the strike is truly contemptible

03-02-2019 1:01pm

Mad_maxx wrote: »

I'm open to correction, if nurses in Ireland are higher paid than nurses in Australia, then the strike is truly contemptible

Registered Nurses (RN) in Australia earn an average salary of AUD$65,000 (€42000) per year.

The average earnings for all HSE staff nurses and midwifes (excluding all promotional grades) in 2017 were approximately €51,000 (It's more than this now).

brendanwalsh · 03-02-2019 1:03pm

Nobody would begrudge the nurses better conditions. Better pay however won't solve the horrendous conditions

Unfortunately an extra 5k a year won't stop a girl in her early 20s heading off to dubai over staying in tullamore general.

The girls abroad are getting double the salary tax free along with fully paid housing and food. It's just something we can't compete with.

03-02-2019 1:06pm

brendanwalsh wrote: »

Nobody would begrudge the nurses better conditions. Better pay however won't solve the horrendous conditions

Unfortunately an extra 5k a year won't stop a girl in her early 20s heading off to dubai over staying in tullamore general.

The girls abroad are getting double the salary tax free along with fully paid housing and food. It's just something we can't compete with.

The girls abroad in Dubai (and similar anomalies), maybe. Everywhere else? Pays less. And as mentioned already, despite what the unions are saying, the independent commission has found that there is nothing unusual about our staffing levels. There is no mass exodus. It's a lie.

tayto lover · 03-02-2019 1:06pm

Sergio Georgini wrote: »

Registered Nurses (RN) in Australia earn an average salary of AUD$65,000 (€42000) per year.

The average earnings for all HSE staff nurses and midwifes (excluding all promotional grades) in 2017 were approximately €51,000 (It's more than this now).

You are including allowances and overtime in that.
Basic flat wages is the gauge. I heard the radio interviews.

03-02-2019 1:11pm

tayto lover wrote: »

You are including allowances and overtime in that.
Basic flat wages is the gauge. I heard the radio interviews.

Why is that the gauge? That's literally what they are paid.

Here's a quote:

“More broadly, OECD nursing remuneration data show that, in purchasing power parity terms, Irish nursing pay (including allowances and premium payments) between 2007 and 2017 was consistently on a par with Australia and higher than New Zealand, Canada and the UK,” notes the spending review.

It also maintains that 82 per cent of all nurses and midwives are on basic salaries of more than €40,000 exclusive of allowances or premium payments.

03-02-2019 1:13pm

tayto lover wrote: »

You are including allowances and overtime in that.
Basic flat wages is the gauge. I heard the radio interviews.

You mean you heard the fake propaganda

tayto lover · 03-02-2019 1:16pm

salonfire wrote: »

You mean you heard the fake propaganda

As opposed to Govt propaganda which lumped in everything.
I always refused overtime myself when working. You should have a decent flat wage and not be relying on overtime. Overtime enslaves people.

03-02-2019 1:19pm

tayto lover wrote: »

As opposed to Govt propaganda which lumped in everything.
I always refused overtime myself when working. You should have a decent flat wage and not be relying on overtime. Overtime enslaves people.

What makes you think it's overtime?

noodler · 03-02-2019 1:20pm

Whatever about you overtime, the shift allowance absolutely has to be included in any comparison.

03-02-2019 1:20pm

tayto lover wrote: »

As opposed to Govt propaganda which lumped in everything.
I always refused overtime myself when working. You should have a decent flat wage and not be relying on overtime. Overtime enslaves people.

Will you for the love of God stop peddling lies and half truths.

The salaries quoted by the Government does not include overtime. It is inclusive of basic pay and allowances.

tayto lover · 03-02-2019 1:23pm

Sergio Georgini wrote: »

What makes you think it's overtime?

I heard them being interviewed.
Because of under staffing they are forced to do it.
Newstalk I think.

03-02-2019 1:27pm

tayto lover wrote: »

You are including allowances and overtime in that.
Basic flat wages is the gauge. I heard the radio interviews.

The INMO negotiated additional premiums, allowances and copious well paid promotional posts to settle previous pay disputes (in order to pretend that that they were not going outside of pay agreements). Now they want to have all this disregarded in the present claim. For any job it is the "total remuneration package" that counts. Nurse have done very well on that score but now their propaganda machine is doing an effective job to conceal this from public discourse.

end of the road · 03-02-2019 2:02pm

salonfire wrote: »

You mean you heard the fake propaganda

no as there is no fake propaganda from what i can see.

tayto lover · 03-02-2019 2:15pm

end of the road wrote: »

no as there is no fake propaganda from what i can see.

I wonder if the nurses will get the blame because the new Children’s Hospital won’t be able to receive Coastguard helicopters with sick children due to poor planning?

03-02-2019 2:33pm

tayto lover wrote: »

I wonder if the nurses will get the blame because the new Children’s Hospital won’t be able to receive Coastguard helicopters with sick children due to poor planning?

Back to the pay thing, do you accept that Irish nurses are comparatively well compensated relative to other countries? How much more should an Irish nurse earn compared to their UK or Australian counterparts? If the existing 20-40% pay premium isn't enough give me a figure that is.

tayto lover · 03-02-2019 2:40pm

Sergio Georgini wrote: »

Back to the pay thing, do you accept that Irish nurses are comparatively well compensated relative to other countries? How much more should an Irish nurse earn compared to their UK or Australian counterparts? If the existing 20-40% pay premium isn't enough give me a figure that is.

No I don’t. Also why would all the Irish nurses out abroad be getting behind the protests for higher wages here before even contemplating returning to work here.? Obviously the figures are not convincing to entice them.
An experienced nurse should be on at least 55K flat imo. Allowances on top of that if we want to keep them here.

judeboy101 · 03-02-2019 2:50pm

Skihunta13 wrote: »

I totally agree with that teachers should not be paid higher than nurses if pay parity is the reason looking for a pay rise, but as someone once told me nurses filled out the same CAO forms as teacher.
The hardship that nurses refer to as reasons for payrise( long shifts, difficult patience etc) cannot be used as a reason for pay rise as these situations are not new to hospitals. Nurses knew these conditions before they started.
Nurses do get paid more garda. Who has it more difficult there.
The government screwed up by paying teachers what they have and im sorry but they do get very generous conditions ie summer holidays, midterms, personal days. Even with all these days off they still close the school for training days. They only work the hours that kids can.Joke. Every public sector is going to use the teachers as a goal for pay & conditions.

The fact the union is looking for this now and the government has dug the heels in tells me hoe screwed we are after Brexit. We hust simply cannot afford it.
Did Varadkar & co give themselves a pay rise recently or am i hearing wrong? If true the whole country should be out in protest.

Hard to work a dialysis machine if you can't read .

03-02-2019 2:52pm

tayto lover wrote: »

No I don’t. Also why would all the Irish nurses out abroad be getting behind the protests for higher wages here before even contemplating returning to work here.? Obviously the figures are not convincing to entice them.
An experienced nurse should be on at least 55K flat imo. Allowances on top of that if we want to keep them here.

Well, as explained a number of times, there is no exodus of nurses, verified independently. So the figures obviously are enticing enough.

I'm not arguing that 55k basic shouldnt be paid to nurses. The cost of living, especially in Dublin, is high enough to warrant this. What I don't appreciate is the lies that are being told to support this. It's either deserved or it isn't, a lie just tells me it isn't.

If anything, nurses in Dublin should receive an allowance that factors in the much higher cost of living. And this should go across the entire public service. This would be a sensible approach. It won't happen though.

03-02-2019 2:58pm

tayto lover wrote: »

No I don’t. Also why would all the Irish nurses out abroad be getting behind the protests for higher wages here before even contemplating returning to work here.? Obviously the figures are not convincing to entice them.
An experienced nurse should be on at least 55K flat imo. Allowances on top of that if we want to keep them here.

Have you costed that, tayto lover?

And have you multiplied that by 10 (say) to get an idea of the cumulative cost?

And have you costed the knock on claims that would inevitably followed across the public sector?

And have you costed the tax increase that would be required to cover all that?

And have you costed the impact that increase would have on other sectors of the economy ?

And costed the impact of this on job maintenance/creation, given the increased in the cost of employment?

Can you come back when you have approximate calculations?

tayto lover · 03-02-2019 3:07pm

1641 wrote: »

Have you costed that, tayto lover?

And have you multiplied that by 10 (say) to get an idea of the cumulative cost?

And have you costed the knock on claims that would inevitably followed across the public sector?

And have you costed the tax increase that would be required to cover all that?

And have you costed the impact that increase would have on other sectors of the economy ?

And costed the impact of this on job maintenance/creation, given the increased in the cost of employment?

Can you come back when you have approximate calculations?

No I haven’t but I’m sure a 1 percent rise in corporate tax rate would cover it.

Flyingsnowball · 03-02-2019 3:30pm

tayto lover wrote: »

I wonder if the nurses will get the blame because the new Children’s Hospital won’t be able to receive Coastguard helicopters with sick children due to poor planning?

No but they will probably claim they fly the helicopters on their breaks

03-02-2019 3:41pm

tayto lover wrote: »

No I haven’t but I’m sure a 1 percent rise in corporate tax rate would cover it.

Right. We took in 9.4 billion in corporate tax last year (at 12.5%). So your 1% would be about 750 million. Not near enough to cover everything, I'd wager. But we will know more when you get back with costings. You would surely produce costing before throwing your own, and everyone else's, money around, right?
But more broadly, you are going to rely on an extremely volatile tax to fund permanent spending (like stamp duty was relied on before the 2008 disaster). For example, any international slowdown (and early signs are there) will greatly impact the take. Or if even one of the top 10 mutinationals who pay the bulk of our corporation tax decided to move on it would have a severe impact on tax take (not to mention employment - but private sector jobs, so irrelevant, right?.)
Our rate is surely an attraction to them to stay, so increasing it will hardly make them more likely to stay. Our international competitors would dearly love us to increase rates so that they would have more chance of poaching them for us. But, hey, go ahead and eat the golden goose.
Do the government take back the increase in wages if and when corporation tax sinks ? Or will they have to increase income taxes and levies instead?

I suspect the real answer is that you don't care as long the wage demands are met.

Achasanai · 03-02-2019 4:07pm

Graces7 wrote: »

They are well paid. And they do work reasonable hours. And they claim that this is not about pay?

Is better pay not part of their demands?

Better pay would lead to better staff retention, less reliance on agency nurses, and fewer instances of staff working long hours or on wards with insufficient staff. I've been the patient in situations like this, and from a purely selfish perspective, it leads to reduced patient care (despite those nurses & junior doctors on the ward doing their best). From a less selfish perspective, increasing the attractiveness of a nursing position compared to similar (but less physically demanding) jobs in the HSE is better for our health care system (as fúcked as it is).

tayto lover · 03-02-2019 4:41pm

1641 wrote: »

Right. We took in 9.4 billion in corporate tax last year (at 12.5%). So your 1% would be about 750 million. Not near enough to cover everything, I'd wager. But we will know more when you get back with costings. You would surely produce costing before throwing your own, and everyone else's, money around, right?
But more broadly, you are going to rely on an extremely volatile tax to fund permanent spending (like stamp duty was relied on before the 2008 disaster). For example, any international slowdown (and early signs are there) will greatly impact the take. Or if even one of the top 10 mutinationals who pay the bulk of our corporation tax decided to move on it would have a severe impact on tax take (not to mention employment - but private sector jobs, so irrelevant, right?.)
Our rate is surely an attraction to them to stay, so increasing it will hardly make them more likely to stay. Our international competitors would dearly love us to increase rates so that they would have more chance of poaching them for us. But, hey, go ahead and eat the golden goose.
Do the government take back the increase in wages if and when corporation tax sinks ? Or will they have to increase income taxes and levies instead?

I suspect the real answer is that you don't care as long the wage demands are met.

You’re right. I don’t care where the money is found but in the end it will be found. Bet your life on it.
They can find money when they want to as we have seen before.

03-02-2019 4:50pm

tayto lover wrote: »

You’re right. I don’t care where the money is found but in the end it will be found. Bet your life on it.
They can find money when they want to as we have seen before.

Maybe, but if they do people (ordinary people) will have to pay for it, that is for sure. It won't be plucked from the money tree. And will it make the health service the slightest bit better? Guaranteed no.

deviari · 03-02-2019 4:52pm

I can't see them being successful to tell the truth...

OMD · 03-02-2019 4:53pm

tayto lover wrote: »

According to their spokeswoman - UK, Canada, Australia, Saudi Arabia etc.
Did you not see the photos of the nurses abroad supporting them?

Nurses salary UK
https://www.rcn.org.uk/employment-and-pay/nhs-pay-scales-2017-18

Nurse salary Ireland
https://www.inmo.ie/salary_information

Nurses in Ireland are paid substantially more than UK Nurses.

tayto lover · 03-02-2019 4:55pm

1641 wrote: »

Maybe, but if they do people (ordinary people) will have to pay for it, that is for sure. It won't be plucked from the money tree. And will it make the health service the slightest bit better? Guaranteed no.

Ordinary people always pay.
Ordinary people support them too.

OMD · 03-02-2019 4:56pm

tayto lover wrote: »

As opposed to Govt propaganda which lumped in everything.
I always refused overtime myself when working. You should have a decent flat wage and not be relying on overtime. Overtime enslaves people.

Nurses in Ireland don't normally work overtime. The average nurse works 0 hours overtime

noodler · 03-02-2019 5:03pm

tayto lover wrote: »

You’re right. I don’t care where the money is found but in the end it will be found. Bet your life on it.
They can find money when they want to as we have seen before.

This is the boom bust attitude.

Same people will will blame d Gubberment when cuts have to be made no doubt.

03-02-2019 5:09pm

tayto lover wrote: »

Ordinary people always pay.
Ordinary people support them too.

Unfortunately people don't seem to factor in that they will end up paying (either through tax/levies or through even worse services - more cuts to home help anyone? more cuts to respite care maybe? less funding for DEIS schools? etc,etc,etc).

Instead they tend to think "the Government" will pay. Or they fall for the loonies' story about a magical pot of money out there just waiting to be tapped.

hawkelady · 03-02-2019 5:14pm

OMD wrote: »

Nurses in Ireland don't normally work overtime. The average nurse works 0 hours overtime

Not true !!! And the hse spend €2 million per week on agency nurses .. ot is optional , you know. But a lot of nurses do ot to up their wage.

03-02-2019 5:15pm

tayto lover wrote: »

You’re right. I don’t care where the money is found but in the end it will be found. Bet your life on it.
They can find money when they want to as we have seen before.

Indeed you are right here.

Its "found" by being cut from something else, often less politically sensitive but more needed.

e.g. mental health funding, traveller education that type of thing, wont cause any political problems at the local elections.

Miike · 03-02-2019 5:50pm

OMD wrote: »

Nurses in Ireland don't normally work overtime. The average nurse works 0 hours overtime

In which discipline? Because in General and Mental Health there is currently mandatory overtime in units throughout the country.

https://www.rte.ie/news/2019/0131/1026609-pna_industrial_action/

But sure no nurses do overtime, whats the sense in the overtime ban and the hype its generated internally then?

Why do people in this thread insist on making things up to suit their argument???

OMD · 03-02-2019 5:59pm

Miike wrote: »

In which discipline? Because in General and Mental Health there is currently mandatory overtime in units throughout the country.

https://www.rte.ie/news/2019/0131/1026609-pna_industrial_action/

But sure no nurses do overtime, whats the sense in the overtime ban and the hype its generated internally then?

Why do people in this thread insist on making things up to suit their argument???

I said nurses in Ireland don't normally do overtime. That is true. Note the words "don't normally". You decided to change what I actually said to "no nurses do overtime".

So you are the one who is "making things up to suit their argument".

Miike · 03-02-2019 6:03pm

OMD wrote: »

I said nurses in Ireland don't normally do overtime. That is true. Note the words "don't normally". You decided to change what I actually said to "no nurses do overtime".

So you are the one who is "making things up to suit their argument".

"The average nurse does 0 overtime" and "don't normally" are oceans apart. The numbers in that article speak for them selves and that's before we get onto the topic of mandatory overtime being imposed.

If you said that the average senior nurse does little overtime I'd agree but that's how it's allocated in some units. Seniority trumps all.

dellas1979 · 03-02-2019 6:12pm

Yea-I do believe they deserve a pay rise.

But only the nice nurses.

Some really grumpy ones out there.

noodler · 03-02-2019 6:22pm

Miike wrote: »

"The average nurse does 0 overtime" and "don't normally" are oceans apart. The numbers in that article speak for them selves and that's before we get onto the topic of mandatory overtime being imposed.

If you said that the average senior nurse does little overtime I'd agree but that's how it's allocated in some units. Seniority trumps all.

How many of the 40,000 do regular OT?

hawkelady · 03-02-2019 6:28pm

noodler wrote: »

How many of the 40,000 do regular OT?

Another moronic post from you. Why don’t you go find out ? How , I’ve no idea .. we can only really go on people who work in hospitals or make rosters. What we do know is the government currently pay €2 million a week on agency staff ! €104 million per annum .. crazy figures

Miike · 03-02-2019 6:30pm

noodler wrote: »

How many of the 40,000 do regular OT?

I don't believe those numbers would be published as much as I would love to see them. I can only tell you what I see every single day in the areas I work out of (which is anything south of Dublin and Galway).

KaneToad · 03-02-2019 6:43pm

It boils down to this, nurses are arguing that an increase in pay will stop nurses leaving. It would seem that the nurses leaving is not seen as that much of a problem ergo the nurses will fail in their attempts.

The union argument about the spending on agency staff doesn't make sense to me either. 104 million a year on agency but 300 million a year if nurses get pay claim. 104 < 300. Also an agency nurse doesn't command a pension, has differing sick leave entitlements and can be cut at will (ie are a very flexible resource) - all of which have cost saving implications.

Do you think nurses will get their payrise?

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