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I bet you didn't know that this thread would have a part 2

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Comments

  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 92,450 Mod ✭✭✭✭Capt'n Midnight


    Checkmate in chess derived from shāh māt old Persian for the king (Shah) is helpless (dead)


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 369 ✭✭Ineedaname


    The actor who played him (pictured above) is Neal McDonough. His mother was from Tipperary and his father was from Galway.

    His sister lives in Clifden. She's an editor for Connemara View newspaper.


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,170 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    GBX wrote: »
    When Indian sitar player Ravi Shanker and his band played at Madison Square Garden they received a huge round of applause after only a short time on stage. Ravi turned to the crowd and said “Thank you. If you appreciate the tuning so much, I hope you will enjoy the playing more.”
    That was at the benefit shows "Concert for Bangladesh" in 1971, organised by George Harrison to raise funds for that country that was going through a storm of war and a flood of refugees. Featuring Harrison, Eric Clapton(who was a full on heroine addict at this stage, but kept his crap together that day), Shankar, Ringo, Bob Dylan and others. John Lennon was up for it, but pulled out at the last minute as he had agreed to play without Yoko, but apparently she had a fit about that. McCartney was thought of in the early stages, but he declined citing bad blood as the Beatles had only gone through their acrimonious breakup a year previously.

    concert-for-bangladesh.jpg

    It was the first benefit gig of such a scale and an triple album(which won a grammy for best album) and film of the concerts followed raising a few million over the years administered by UNICEF. More money was raised but there were "issues" with some of it going missing before UNICEF got it.

    Bob Geldof subsequently said it was a major influence on his idea for Live Aid.

    Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,492 ✭✭✭✭castletownman


    The winner(s) of the 1989 edition of the Masters (Nick Faldo), Super Bowl (San Francisco 49ers), NBA Finals (Detroit Pistons), All-Ireland senior football championship (Cork), Australian Open men's (Ivan Lendl) and women's (Steffi Graf) singles, Monaco Grand Prix (Ayrton Senna) and European Cup (AC Milan), all retained their respective titles the following year.

    Just as a sense of perspective, the Masters has only been retained three times in total, only seven franchises have EVER won consecutive Super Bowls, Real Madrid are the only team to win the Champions League in consecutive years since 1990, Kerry and Dublin the only two teams to retain the AI in the same time-frame, and the Australian women's title has only been won back-to-back three times post-2000.

    I find it incredible that so many titles were retained in those two years.


  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 92,450 Mod ✭✭✭✭Capt'n Midnight


    Wibbs wrote: »
    It was the first benefit gig of such a scale and an triple album(which won a grammy for best album) and film of the concerts followed raising a few million over the years administered by UNICEF. More money was raised but there were "issues" with some of it going missing before UNICEF got it.
    IIRC it made a loss but Harrison handed over a lot of his own money to charity.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,995 ✭✭✭Ipso




  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,170 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    Yup and many in the biz would say that he had a large hand in reviving the British film industry, but for all that and his other charity stuff, he only got the gong from the Brits in his MBE when he was a Beatle and that was for show business exports. McCartney is a "Sir".

    Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.



  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 92,450 Mod ✭✭✭✭Capt'n Midnight


    Wibbs wrote: »
    Yup and many in the biz would say that he had a large hand in reviving the British film industry, but for all that and his other charity stuff, he only got the gong from the Brits in his MBE when he was a Beatle and that was for show business exports. McCartney is a "Sir".

    Who’s Wings?
    They’re only the band The Beatles could have been…


    Mrs Saxe-Coburg-Gotha must be a fan.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,485 ✭✭✭KevRossi


    The actor who played him (pictured above) is Neal McDonough. His mother was from Tipperary and his father was from Galway.

    Both of them hurling strongholds.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 4,485 ✭✭✭KevRossi


    If you take any point west of the Shannon* and head directly north, the first country you hit is ...... Russia. (East of the Shannon and you'll more than likely hit one of the Outer Hebridies).

    You achieve this by passing the North Pole and continuing on to Chukotka Okrug ('province'). This is about 10 times the size of Ireland, but has a population less than that of Roscommon.

    Going anywhere west of Ireland you hit Canada first, east is the UK and going south it could be any one of the UK, Spain, Portugal or Morocco.


    *West of the Shannon and west of Northern Ireland would be more exact.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,849 ✭✭✭764dak


    Will Smith technically doesn't play himself on Fresh Prince. His name is Willard Smith while his character's name is William Smith.


  • Moderators, Arts Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 77,020 Mod ✭✭✭✭New Home


    I heard someone say yesterday that the combined data collected for the photo of the black hole was too big to be transmitted by internet, and was physically brought to one place to be collated.

    Too big for the internet!


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,558 ✭✭✭✭Fourier


    New Home wrote: »
    I heard someone say yesterday that the combined data collected for the photo of the black hole was too big to be transmitted by internet, and was physically brought to one place to be collated.

    Too big for the internet!
    I'm in a email conversation with somebody now who knows a lot more about the experimental and observational details than I do, hopefully I'll have a nice summary soon, it's just so much info about stuff new to me! The paper itself wasn't enough to fully get all the details.

    However it wouldn't surprise me, there were similar issues in the LHC solved by dumping about 99% of the data with selection algorithms. Although even the data remaining allowed a huge certainty on the detection of the Higgs boson.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,379 ✭✭✭✭Professor Moriarty


    Cymothoa exigua is a louse that enters a fish through it's gills. About a centimetre in length, the male lives in the fish's gills while the female enters the fish's mouth and attaches itself to the tongue while bleeding the tongue dry. The tongue falls off and the louse then attaches itself to the stub and becomes the fish's tongue. Usually, this seems to have no obvious negative effect on the fish.

    yom5132d0bh11.jpg


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 269 ✭✭Ahorseofaman


    Fourier wrote: »
    hopefully I'll have a nice summary soon,
    Looking forward to being both enlightened and confused,really enjoy your contributions.(not that I can grasp a lot of them):cool:


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,558 ✭✭✭✭Fourier


    Well there are five release papers thus far (there is to be a sixth). I've just read them and had very helpful pointers from an old colleague.

    So how was the black hole image obtained?
    1. A set of eight telescopes around the globe focused on the M87 galaxy's core on April 5, 6, 10, and 11 in 2017. This galaxy was chosen instead of closer ones like our own because it is very active/bright without being too far away and the central black hole was predicted to be of a very large size. In addition the central black hole was predicted to be relatively static. What this means is that unlike our own it doesn't yo-yo up and down in terms of brightness.

    2. The light that was collected is synchotron radiation. Basically electrically charged particles throw off radiation as they are swung around the black hole. The radiation is way outside the human visual spectrum, so it's not a true colour image. These charged particles are all part of a highly magnetic stream of fluid coming from stars torn apart by the black hole.

    3. Once the data was collected a bunch of common errors have to be filtered out. These are things like slight errors from the warping of the disks in the telescopic arrays, parts of the array being slightly unfocused, etc. The telescope in Mexico known as the LMT had a bit more of these than others as the galaxy was only accessible to it during the evening when the disks warp slightly at the millimeter scale from changes in temperature going from day to night and it is harder to focus in evening light.

    4. All these errors have to be filtered out, but fortunately they are well understood so can be isolated easily. Each station has built up over years of study a statistical catalogue of how likely parts of their array are to be defocused or be slightly hot etc. Again the LMT in Mexico was the hardest to do this for because it's the youngest.

    5. There's also well understood things like removing effects from the Earth's atmosphere and intervening stellar dust. In addition the slight differences between each telescope due to their different positions on the Earth

    6. So after this we have the observational data with errors removed. All the data from all eight stations were collected, effectively giving you something like data from a telescope the size of the Earth. Now to reconstruct the image from that data.

    7. There is an old piece of software called CLEAN used in Radio Astronomy that takes the amount of light obtained in each detector on the telescope, angles and distances between detectors and uses this information to build an image. However in this case half the teams used CLEAN and the others a newer algorithm called RML.

    8. However these algorithms have a lot of settings. Basically they need to know what data is considered part of the black hole image (there will be data from other sources) what parts of the image to use as anchor points to detect warping in the picture and several others I don't understand. The details of imaging software is above my paygrade.

    9. To determine what the settings should be they tested the algorithms against generated data. They basically simulated black holes and a few other astronomical objects, about 10,000 in total. With the "true" images from the simulations they fed the algorithms a sample of the simulation data to see if it could correctly rebuild the simulated image. And they did this for all 10,000 until they were satisfied.

    10. Three teams did this coming up with very similar settings which were then given to the teams using CLEAN and RML. In the end every team obtained an image and the average was used to obtain the final image.

    11. This gave an image for each of the four observation days.

    12. The final step involved General Relativity itself. The images were fed into Einstein's field equations which can tell you how magnetic fluids like the shredded stars should move near a black hole. The equations basically predicted "If a black hole looked like this on April 5th it should look like this on April 6th". The image output by the equations was an extremely close match for the actual April 6th photo. This was done for every day and compared against others (e.g. using the equations on the April 10th data and predicting what April 5th must have been like). Also each image was checked against a simulation of a black hole of that size and spin using General Relativity.

    13. This confirmed that these indeed seem to be images of a rotating black hole behaving exactly as General Relativity says it should.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,995 ✭✭✭Ipso


    New Home wrote: »
    I heard someone say yesterday that the combined data collected for the photo of the black hole was too big to be transmitted by internet, and was physically brought to one place to be collated.

    Too big for the internet!

    Imagine if someone quoted it!


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,633 ✭✭✭✭Buford T. Justice XIX


    Ipso wrote: »
    Imagine if someone quoted it!

    Forum ban, I'd expect:D


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,719 ✭✭✭StupidLikeAFox


    New Home wrote: »
    I heard someone say yesterday that the combined data collected for the photo of the black hole was too big to be transmitted by internet, and was physically brought to one place to be collated.

    Too big for the internet!

    5 petabytes apparently, here is one of the scientist with all the storage:


  • Moderators, Arts Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 77,020 Mod ✭✭✭✭New Home


    Ipso wrote: »
    Imagine if someone quoted it!
    Forum ban, I'd expect:D

    The hamsters wouldn't stand a chance, and the black hole would absorb everything, including your own computer.


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  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 92,450 Mod ✭✭✭✭Capt'n Midnight


    The Israeli moon lander probably isn't doing so well.

    Last photo at 20Km above the surface.

    That's about the same as 2 miles on earth, excluding air resistance.


    If only they hadn't strayed too close to the secret Nazi moon base.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,072 ✭✭✭sunnysoutheast


    New Home wrote: »
    I heard someone say yesterday that the combined data collected for the photo of the black hole was too big to be transmitted by internet, and was physically brought to one place to be collated.

    Too big for the internet!

    It's very common practice to move very large data sets into the cloud via physical means rather than over the internet.

    AWS will send you out ruggedized drives if you ask for one, or even a shipping container!


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,630 ✭✭✭mrsoundie


    New Home wrote: »
    I heard someone say yesterday that the combined data collected for the photo of the black hole was too big to be transmitted by internet, and was physically brought to one place to be collated.

    Too big for the internet!

    Just had a look at this link and it says a time of 521 Days 5 Hours 59 Minutes 56.27 Seconds over a 1 Gig connection.


  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 92,450 Mod ✭✭✭✭Capt'n Midnight


    New Home wrote: »
    I heard someone say yesterday that the combined data collected for the photo of the black hole was too big to be transmitted by internet, and was physically brought to one place to be collated.

    Too big for the internet!
    Never underestimate the bandwidth of a station wagon full of tapes hurtling down the highway.
    - Andrew S. Tanenbaum


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,694 ✭✭✭dasdog


    New Home wrote: »
    I heard someone say yesterday that the combined data collected for the photo of the black hole was too big to be transmitted by internet, and was physically brought to one place to be collated.

    Too big for the internet!

    One keyword here is transmitted. ISP's routers are configured with much higher priority to download, which is what most end users consume, to upload. If you run a speed test on your broadband connection there will probably be a ration of 6:1 or more favouring download.

    From my limited networking knowledge it's doable but the data would need to be transferred with error correction (as the result set could be compromised) and over secure tunnels (as it would be open to sabotage) which would greatly slow the process down. Much faster to put the data on encrypted drives and securely ship them. It's a very low tech solution but it does occur when a company is moving a large amount of data from on premise/existing data centre to a cloud offering.

    We sometimes get questions in work for an ETA of how long a data transfer would take using a certain solution, its really urgent etc as there is a customer go live in a couple of days. Its impossible to gauge these things but when the answer is in weeks their emotions usually go from panic to realisation to offering up the money for a solution they should have originally budgeted and planned for.


  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 92,450 Mod ✭✭✭✭Capt'n Midnight


    SpaceX Falcon Heavy is due to take off in about 5 minutes.
    It's a big rocket thing.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ojvu2u28CIY


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,070 ✭✭✭Franz Von Peppercorn


    Looking forward to being both enlightened and confused,really enjoy your contributions.(not that I can grasp a lot of them):cool:

    I just thank his stuff and nod sagely to myself.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,070 ✭✭✭Franz Von Peppercorn


    It's very common practice to move very large data sets into the cloud via physical means rather than over the internet.

    AWS will send you out ruggedized drives if you ask for one, or even a shipping container!

    That’s right. Road is faster when you get to the multi terabyte level of data.

    https://www.spiria.com/en/blog/big-data/100-petabytes-on-the-road-the-snowmobile-solution/

    That blog talks about transferring huge amounts of already collected data.

    Take for example DigitalGlobe, an American company specializing in satellite imagery. Over its 17 years of operations, it has gathered over 100 petabytes of images of our planet’s surface. Every year, its constellation of commercial satellites gathers 10 petabytes more data. Until recently, DigitalGlobe archived its images on tapes and sent out orders to clients in FTP format or on hard drives by courier--a cumbersome process that required several hours of handling.

    The company decided to upload its enormous library on Amazon’s cloud to provide a faster, more competitive service to its customers. Therefore last year, a Snowmobile truck parked at DigitalGlobe’s headquarters in Colorado, transferring 54 million high-resolution images in just a few weeks and making the entire library of images available online. And, to keep the library always up-to-date, the 80 to 100 terabytes of new data produced every day are transferred online to Amazon S3 on a daily basis.


    In the absence of this kind of transfer, as the article also explains uploading 50-petabytes is an operation that takes 28 years and 7 months on a 1,000-megabit per second fibre optic cable. My upload speed is 3Mb/s so it would take 950 years or so.

    (Most businesses are SDSL not ADSL meaning the download and upload speed are the same and in general relatively high, but it makes no odds with this size of data).


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 40,513 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    I wouldn't even like to think how much that amazon storage is costing per month


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,812 ✭✭✭✭sbsquarepants


    Practically everyone is aware of the stereotype of older people getting up at the crack of dawn and going to bed early in the evening whereas younger people tend to do the opposite - night owls who sleep till stupid o'clock in the day.

    Well it turns out it might be an evolutionary roster system. Recent studies of a primitive hunter gatherer society in Tanzania (the Hadza) has revealed that in the absence of any time constraints or measurements, they tend to do the exact same thing. In fact over the course of the 3 week study of one group of 30odd people, there were only 18 minutes where the whole tribe were asleep simultaneously.

    The researchers have surmised (reasonably enough I think) that it may well be natures way of having a sentinel on guard round the clock to keep an eye out, ward of predators and so on.

    So remember, next time you're about to lay into your teenagers for sitting up all night, bingeing on netflix and internet porn - you weren't eaten by a lion where you...... so maybe a thank you is more appropriatebiggrin.png
    user_online.pngreport.gif progress.gif


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  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 16,287 Mod ✭✭✭✭quickbeam


    If Manhattan was as densely populated as Alaska there would be 25 people on the whole island.

    Manhattan - 28K per km2
    Alaska - 0.49 per km2

    If the world was as densely populated as Manhattan we'd all fit in New Zealand.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,203 ✭✭✭partyguinness


    Newborn babies open their eyes when placed in a dark room.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,203 ✭✭✭partyguinness


    The guy in the white suit next to Lee Harvey Oswald when he was shot is still alive. He also survived Pearl Harbour.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jim_Leavelle


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,485 ✭✭✭KevRossi


    The guy in the white suit next to Lee Harvey Oswald when he was shot is still alive. He also survived Pearl Harbour.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jim_Leavelle

    Now that is the exact thing that I constantly come on this thread for!

    Chapeau Monsieur!

    Chapeau!


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 6,309 Mod ✭✭✭✭mzungu


    The Empire State building took a little over a year (410 days) to be built. It was finished 12 days ahead of schedule.


  • Registered Users Posts: 124 ✭✭lan


    dasdog wrote: »
    From my limited networking knowledge it's doable but the data would need to be transferred with error correction (as the result set could be compromised) and over secure tunnels (as it would be open to sabotage) which would greatly slow the process down. Much faster to put the data on encrypted drives and securely ship them.

    Error detection and retransmission is built into TCP/IP, the most common transport protocol on the internet. It doesn’t add much overhead (unless your connection is unreliable).

    Encryption also doesn’t increase the size of data, and can be done effectively in real-time, far faster than the data can be transmitted across the net.

    For datasets that large, it’s really just a matter and bandwidth, and as you’ve said, it’s much faster to just send the disks.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,694 ✭✭✭dasdog


    lan wrote: »
    Error detection and retransmission is built into TCP/IP, the most common transport protocol on the internet. It doesn’t add much overhead (unless your connection is unreliable).

    Encryption also doesn’t increase the size of data, and can be done effectively in real-time, far faster than the data can be transmitted across the net.

    For datasets that large, it’s really just a matter and bandwidth, and as you’ve said, it’s much faster to just send the disks.

    I was inferring UDP and I'd love to know how securing a tunnel has no overhead.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 32,688 ✭✭✭✭ytpe2r5bxkn0c1


    If you open your eyes in a pitch-black room, the colour you see is called 'eigengrau.'


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,786 ✭✭✭KathleenGrant


    If you open your eyes in a pitch-black room, the colour you see is called 'eigengrau.'

    Why is it not black? It looks black.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 32,688 ✭✭✭✭ytpe2r5bxkn0c1


    Why is it not black? It looks black.

    It's a dark grey colour that's in perfect darkness, as a result of signals from the optic nerves.


  • Registered Users Posts: 124 ✭✭lan


    dasdog wrote: »
    I was inferring UDP
    dasdog wrote:
    but the data would need to be transferred with error correction [...] and over secure tunnels [...] which would greatly slow the process down

    Why would you use UDP if you need error correction?
    dasdog wrote: »
    and I'd love to know how securing a tunnel has no overhead.

    I didn't say to use a tunnel, you did. I suggested just encrypting it. Yes, there's some additional processing overhead, but the bandwidth will still be the limiting factor.

    You could include also include a hash in the encrypted data every 100MB or so to ensure it wasn't tampered with.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,902 ✭✭✭✭Realt Dearg Sec


    Ah I seem to have accidentally clicked into the "I bet you didn't understand this" thread.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,558 ✭✭✭✭Fourier


    Fourier wrote:
    I'll just finish off (probably back March-ish)
    So I wanted to close this off, but left it a month late! With the black hole seems like now would be a good time.

    The last two things I haven't spoken about with Quantum Theory is the idea of the observer and the whole issue with "okay what the hell is actually going on"? Especially since I made what can seem to be an odd claim at the end of the last post:
    Fourier wrote:
    Unfortunately we just don't know what are the sensible concepts/descriptions for the fundamental stuff and there are strong reasons (in the form of mathematical theorems) to think we basically can't understand them.

    In this post I'll deal with the observer and how it relates to the fundamental weirdness of Quantum theory. The next and last post I'll have on Quantum Theory is the "what the hell is going on" part.

    So, the observer. This has caused a pile of crazy pseudo-science, but funnily enough I often see "skeptics" on the net over-egg it and say Quantum Theory doesn't have observers. This is false. It does have observers but it's for mundane reasons.

    Quantum Theory involves probabilities and probabilities are basically about betting and knowledge, this is why there is an "observer".

    So say a weather service on a Tuesday gives a 38% chance of Thursday being sunny. Then they see the way the weather patterns are on Wednesday and they update that to a 67% chance of Thursday being sunny. Why? Well it's because on Wednesday they've observed a few new facts that make a sunny Thursday more likely. They've learned something. They have observed something and updated how they'd bet based on this new knowledge.

    However note how this is subjective and depends on the observer. Somebody operating another weather station sleeps in on Wednesday and doesn't make detailed observations. They won't be able to update their probabilities the same way. Say they only catch the details of the weather in the evening rather than tracking it all of Wednesday and that's only enough information to raise the chance of a sunny Thursday to 45%.

    That's what's going on in quantum theory. You do an experiment, get a result and then update your probabilities/bets for the next experiment based on that. This does involve the "observer" and it is subjective but for the same reason the weather does.

    So if Quantum Theory is just about betting on microscopic experiments what's the problem? Or what's the difference between it and betting on the weather? It's a very weird difference, but one that comes up when surveying people's preferences.

    Imagine you try to survey people in Ireland on their favourite Indian political party and include brief descriptions of each political party on the survey. If you look at the statistics after they break certain mathematical rules statistics and probabilities are supposed to obey. Betting on the weather, dice rolls, horse races, etc obey these rules but surveys don't. Why would this survey break the rules? Because people in Ireland typically know nothing about Indian parties. Your descriptions probably created their opinions. You weren't measuring an opinion that was already there. Until your survey they had no opinion on the Bharatiya Janata Party.

    So the big difference is that your attempt to record the result in fact creates the result. That's what Quantum Theory is about. Statistics and betting when your attempt to learn creates the results. Quantum Mathematics shows up in opinion surveys. The statistics of microscopic systems behave like opinion surveys.

    The problem is this: Okay John from Blanchardtown thought nothing of the Bharatiya Janata Party until I gave the survey. However that an atom had no Energy until I checked is a bit odd. Not that it had zero energy, that's still a value of Energy, literally the concept didn't apply. Just like John wasn't neutral on the Bharatiya Janata Party, he had absolutely no opinion.

    Same for position. A particle isn't anywhere until you check. In fact because whether something shows up as a particle or a wave or a field depends on what device you use, the stuff isn't even a particle until you check.

    This is the craziness that bothered Einstein, not randomness like several books claim. National Geographic had a great video on this (see Einstein's main problem at 0:43)



    Now what Bohr thought ties back to John from Blanchardstown. Yes John doesn't think anything about the Bharatiya Janata Party, but he still exists and has several other properties besides opinions about Indian political parties. Similarly the stuff down there doesn't have Energy, Momentum, Position, etc until we or other large objects force them to. However that doesn't mean they don't have other properties we don't know about.

    However Bohr made the bold claim we'll never know anything about those properties. Why he said that or more so why as of 2019 it looks like he was right leads into the final post about what the hell is going on...



    EDIT: Just for veracity's sake here is an example of a paper that uses the mathematics of quantum theory to explain a political survey:
    https://arxiv.org/abs/1604.08270
    The point isn't the specifics just the last line where they say that they needed the mathematics of quantum theory to explain surveys on Bill Clinton and Al Gore, as well as another on Baseball players Pete Rose and Shoeless Joe Jackson. No microscopic systems involved, but there was clear evidence the survey itself was partially creating the opinions and that's why you needed quantum theory


  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 92,450 Mod ✭✭✭✭Capt'n Midnight


    The second successful launch of SpaceX Falcon Heavy means that the $17Bn that NASA has spent on SLS has been spaffed up a wall.

    If SLS becomes a successful launcher it will still be 10 times as expensive as SpaceX per launch, so a billion dollars a go. Up in smoke. Literally.


    SLS uses flight proven tech from the Space Shuttle ( even reusing leftover engines) , or in the case of the upper stage stuff an engine was first tested in the 1950's. - Reinventing the wheel is expensive :rolleyes:


    Boeing are the main contractor for SLS.

    They are also part of ULA that has had a monopoly on military space launches for the last decade, Atlas and Delta have had a 50 year track record in US spaceflight, apart from the bits bought from the Russians, including engines that were sitting in a warehouse for ages.
    ( though SpaceX are starting to slowly eat into this market )


    [/RANT]

    The irony is that despite Boing getting money for old rope the EU and US are shaping up for a tariff war over subsidies to Airbus and Boeing.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,457 ✭✭✭Morbert


    What's especially counterintuitive about QM is how fundamentally observer-dependent its descriptions appear to be.

    E.g. Fourier talked about how an observer's use of the concept of energy when describing an atom is contingent on observation.
    However that an atom had no Energy until I checked is a bit odd. Not that it had zero energy, that's still a value of Energy, literally the concept didn't apply.

    We might be tempted to conclude some objective point like "the energy of the atom is brought into existence when it is directly measured".

    Instead, this restraint on describing the atom in terms of a definite energy is specific to the observer. A 2nd, distant observer may speak of the energy of the atom without ever measuring it if they, for example, measure the energy of a 2nd atom appropriately correlated with it.

    To strain Fourier's analogy to breaking point: Surveyor A, located in Ireland, will not be able to speak of Irish attitudes towards Indian parties prior to surveying them. But if it is the case that Irish attitudes will match Scottish attitudes, then surveyor B, located in Scotland, would be able to speak of Irish attitudes towards Indian parties by surveying only Scottish people. The suitability of the notion of "Irish attitudes towards political parties" is surveyor-dependent.

    [edit] - An interesting article discussing QM's subjective character

    https://www.technologyreview.com/s/613092/a-quantum-experiment-suggests-theres-no-such-thing-as-objective-reality/

    There are quantum foundations research projects which attempt to recover "observer-independence" in QM. How successful they are is up for debate.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,862 ✭✭✭mikhail


    Never underestimate the bandwidth of a station wagon full of tapes hurtling down the highway.
    - Andrew S. Tanenbaum
    https://what-if.xkcd.com/31/


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,558 ✭✭✭✭Fourier


    Fourier wrote: »
    However Bohr made the bold claim we'll never know anything about those properties. Why he said that or more so why as of 2019 it looks like he was right leads into the final post about what the hell is going on...
    So now, what's actually going on? I'm not going to concentrate on why Bohr thought this, but more so why we now think he is correct.

    So fine, we know particles don't really have Energy (or position, momentum, etc) unless we or other large objects check to see their Energy. Our checking seems to actually create the value.

    However whatever properties they do have surely once we know those properties we can make a scientific theory of them?

    I won't go into the details, but there are a set of theorems that constrain explanations of Quantum Mechanics. The most famous of these theorems are the Kochen-Specker, Bell and PBR theorems. It doesn't matter what each of them say, it's a bit technical, but the end result is that they leave only a few ways to explain Quantum Mechanics.

    According to these theorems the only possible explanations for what's happening underneath QM are:
    1. The different parts of the world communicate with each other no matter how far apart they are. So the material in your body is "talking" to the material near the M58 black hole whose picture was revealed last week. In addition to this every little bit of material in your body stores an infinite amount of information.

    2. The future communicates with the past. They both determine each other. So sometimes a particle might go off course because it hit a wave sent back in time from its future self.

    3. There are multiple parallel worlds.

    4. Quantum Mechanics isn't correct, it just looks like it is.

    5. The properties of the underlying stuff has no mathematical explanation. It can't be modelled or understood enough to be described in a predictive way.

    I know the list is pretty crazy, but these are the only options. Everything else has been ruled out. However all these options don't have equal standing.

    The first one is in explicit contradiction with Relativity and despite billions of tests this instant communication has never been seen. It has been proven that theories like this have to be very carefully fine tuned to avoid contradicting our observations.

    Similar problems apply to the second one. None of these influences from the future have been seen and again they'd need to be pretty carefully tuned.

    The the third one has a similar major problem matching experiment. Quantum Mechanics gives pretty precise probabilities for experiments. Like "There's a 78.6% chance the Geiger counter will click in the next minute". The Many Worlds approach has a real problem with getting these precise numbers out. Despite sixty two years of work every attempt to do so has failed.

    The fourth one might seem like a good one, however there has been a theorem proven (Colbeck-Renner theorem) that basically shows even if QM is wrong the theory that replaces it will suffer the same problems with "what the hell is going on?". Plus no experiments suggest Quantum Mechanics is wrong.

    So that leaves the last option. The opinion of those who originally created Quantum Mechanics, e.g. Bohr, Heisenberg, Pauli.

    So Quantum Mechanics is basically a theory for betting on and managing your knowledge about the Energy, Positions, Momenta and other physical properties of subatomic systems even basic ones like being a particle or a wave. It's a bit different from the normal rules of betting because none of these properties are natural to subatomic systems, we and other large objects create them/cause subatomic systems to develop them when we check for them. Unfortunately their real/natural properties are not susceptible to mathematical comprehension or description and thus may remain outside of scientific understanding. The End.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,625 ✭✭✭✭BaZmO*


    Hummingbirds can’t walk


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,480 ✭✭✭Chancer3001


    BaZmO* wrote: »
    Hummingbirds can’t walk


    After fouriers post above, the simplicity of that actually made me lol.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,149 ✭✭✭Ariadne


    After fouriers post above, the simplicity of that actually made me lol.


    I prefer those kind of ''I bet you didn't know'' posts because Fourier's posts make me feel like an inferior human :pac:


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