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ESB new peaker plant will be ... natural gas

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    #92
    Atlantic Dawn
    Registered Users Posts: 81,170 ✭✭✭✭Atlantic Dawn
    M


    The ban on LNG importation and ban on offshore exploration for gas is the most idiotic energy policy on the face of planet earth. Obtaining electricity produced from these very means is so hypocritical it's unbelievable.


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    #93
    Water John
    Registered Users Posts: 21,117 ✭✭✭✭Water John


    Atlantic Dawn wrote: »
    The ban on LNG importation and ban on offshore exploration for gas is the most idiotic energy policy on the face of planet earth. Obtaining electricity produced from these very means is so hypocritical it's unbelievable.

    Planet earth appreciates your energy policy.


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    #94
    celtic_oz
    Registered Users Posts: 1,548 ✭✭✭celtic_oz


    donvito99 wrote: »
    Let some other jurisdiction fail before we commit hundreds of millions towards the improved version. Why not support a European manufacturer, like VanHool or VDL? You know, companies in countries that we'd like to see do well.

    Not only were you wrong 6 months ago, but by your own argument
    donvito99 wrote: »
    There are enough old heads in the civil service to know that to be the first to adopt something en masse is a terrible idea and public resources should not be allocated such projects.

    The NTA have changed their mind and are now going electric

    Ireland launches huge tender for electric double-deckers. The tender calls for up to 800 e-buses to be procured.

    So you now think the NTA are daft.

    Maybe lift your myopic gaze a little further than the economics of a a single bus trip.


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    #95
    Sam Russell
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,362 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    Atlantic Dawn wrote: »
    The ban on LNG importation and ban on offshore exploration for gas is the most idiotic energy policy on the face of planet earth. Obtaining electricity produced from these very means is so hypocritical it's unbelievable.

    We have not found much oil or gas off-shore yet, so maybe leaving it the ground might be a good idea. We appear to get no real benefit for the state from the little we have found.


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    #96
    donvito99
    Registered Users Posts: 5,818 ✭✭✭donvito99


    celtic_oz wrote: »
    Not only were you wrong 6 months ago, but by your own argument



    The NTA have changed their mind and are now going electric

    Ireland launches huge tender for electric double-deckers. The tender calls for up to 800 e-buses to be procured.

    So you now think the NTA are daft.

    Maybe lift your myopic gaze a little further than the economics of a a single bus trip.

    So why did they order 600 hybrids before this order?


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    #97
    bk
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,466 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    donvito99 wrote: »
    So why did they order 600 hybrids before this order?

    We didn’t, a framework was put in place for the possible order of 600 plug-in hybrid buses over 6 years. Firm orders decisions are made yearly (usually about 100 buses per year) and they can decide not to go ahead with an order.

    So far they have placed 280 to 300 firm orders.

    They are now tendering for 800 full EV double deckers, plus there is a separate tender for 100 full EV single deckers.

    A tender like this isn’t a guarantee they will buy, it depends on the busses offered, the cost and if the spec meets the NTAs requirements.

    I hope this new tender is successful, but no guarantee, if it isn’t, then they’ll continue with the hybrid options instead, good to have a plan B.

    This double deck tender is inline with when buses manufactures said that EV double deckers will have enough range to meet the NTAs needs.


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    #98
    donvito99
    Registered Users Posts: 5,818 ✭✭✭donvito99


    bk wrote: »
    We didn’t, a framework was put in place for the possible order of 600 plug-in hybrid buses over 6 years. Firm orders decisions are made yearly (usually about 100 buses per year) and they can decide not to go ahead with an order.

    So far they have placed 280 to 300 firm orders.

    They are now tendering for 800 full EV double deckers, plus there is a separate tender for 100 full EV single deckers.

    A tender like this isn’t a guarantee they will buy, it depends on the busses offered, the cost and if the spec meets the NTAs requirements.

    I hope this new tender is successful, but no guarantee, if it isn’t, then they’ll continue with the hybrid options instead, good to have a plan B.

    This double deck tender is inline with when buses manufactures said that EV double deckers will have enough range to meet the NTAs needs.

    So the NTA have, prudently, decided to continue to receive conventionally powered vehicles that are known to do the job reliably until such time as it is evident that all electric vehicles can improve on their conventional counterparts.

    This is why we have experts responsible for procurement and not Elon musk fanboys who would rather commuters stand in the rain by rushing something into service that isn't essential to the service.


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    #99
    bk
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,466 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    donvito99 wrote: »
    An electric bus will not move through traffic any quicker, or transport more people, than a diesel bus. The obsession with making an almighty change before electric vehicle technology is common place in Ireland is silly. The NTA should continue to put money into an improved service and not support the share prices of Chinese manufacturers.

    The NTA are investing 2 Billion in bus connects to improve bus services. The majority of which is going to the infrastructure changes needed on road for bus priority, etc.

    New busses are part of it, but only make up a very small part of the cost of this project.

    You talk of these EV’s costing 100’s of millions but that isn’t really true at all.

    They aren’t replacing the whole fleet over night, they do it gradually at a steady pace. The NTA and DB have a policy of no busses older then 14 years. This is a good policy as it keeps the fleet reliable and well maintained. So every single year, roughly 100 new buses are bought to replace the 100 lest buses.

    This has happened yearly for the past 20 years, 100 new buses every year. Doesn’t really matter if they are Diesel, hybrid or EV.

    So this isn’t costing 100’s of millions, instead you have to look at the marginal cost of buying an EV bus versus an equivalent Diesel bus and decide if that is worth it or not.

    So 100 new Diesel buses 100 new EV buses per year.

    BTW these EV buses will also help greatly with some of the changes to routes that Busconnnects requires. It avoids residents complaints about dirty and noisy buses being routed down their roads. It helps in planning reviews and in court cases. I suspect this maybe a major driver for this.


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    #100
    bk
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,466 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    donvito99 wrote: »
    So the NTA have, prudently, decided to continue to receive conventionally powered vehicles that are known to do the job reliably until such time as it is evident that all electric vehicles can improve on their conventional counterparts.

    Of course they won’t buy unless they prove suitable for their needs.

    Having said that, they likely wouldn’t have gone to all the effort to do such a big tender (biggest bus one ever I think), unless they got clear signals from their partners and manufacturers that suitable options will be available.

    So I wouldn’t be surprised if this tender is successful and we end up with less of the 600 hybrids.

    Btw I forgot to comment on your comment about “Chinese” companies. The ADL-BYD buses in London are built by ADL in the UK, while the drive train and batteries are built by BYD’s two factories in Europe, one in France and one in Hungary.


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    #101
    donvito99
    Registered Users Posts: 5,818 ✭✭✭donvito99


    bk wrote: »
    The NTA are investing 2 Billion in bus connects to improve bus services. The majority of which is going to the infrastructure changes needed on road for bus priority, etc.

    New busses are part of it, but only make up a very small part of the cost of this project.

    You talk of these EV’s costing 100’s of millions but that isn’t really true at all.

    They aren’t replacing the whole fleet over night, they do it gradually at a steady pace. The NTA and DB have a policy of no busses older then 14 years. This is a good policy as it keeps the fleet reliable and well maintained. So every single year, roughly 100 new buses are bought to replace the 100 lest buses.

    This has happened yearly for the past 20 years, 100 new buses every year. Doesn’t really matter if they are Diesel, hybrid or EV.

    So this isn’t costing 100’s of millions, instead you have to look at the marginal cost of buying an EV bus versus an equivalent Diesel bus and decide if that is worth it or not.

    So 100 new Diesel buses 100 new EV buses per year.

    BTW these EV buses will also help greatly with some of the changes to routes that Busconnnects requires. It avoids residents complaints about dirty and noisy buses being routed down their roads. It helps in planning reviews and in court cases. I suspect this maybe a major driver for this.
    bk wrote: »
    Of course they won’t buy unless they prove suitable for their needs.

    Having said that, they likely wouldn’t have gone to all the effort to do such a big tender (biggest bus one ever I think), unless they got clear signals from their partners and manufacturers that suitable options will be available.

    So I wouldn’t be surprised if this tender is successful and we end up with less of the 600 hybrids.

    Btw I forgot to comment on your comment about “Chinese” companies. The ADL-BYD buses in London are built by ADL in the UK, while the drive train and batteries are built by BYD’s two factories in Europe, one in France and one in Hungary.

    The genesis of this thread is the OP giving out about the NTA not deciding to procure hundreds of pure electric buses in 2019.

    Buses are not a material contributor to transport emissions, likely reducing them, and the powertrain is not a critical element of the service.

    My point remains that the NTA have a responsibility to ensure that whatever is procured does not end up being unreliable and damaging the reputation of the service by leaving passengers stranded because the implications of all electric service patterns were not fully considered.

    Thankfully the OP's advise was not heeded and we will incrementally introduce this technology to the fleet.

    In the interim, diesel buses will continue to deliver for passengers. When the A spine is electrified, I won't miss the vibrations through the windows. That's about the only benefit that I will realise as a passenger? Will costs be significantly reduced, what proportion of the NTA operator's costs are fuel, maintenance of ICE engines?


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    #102
    riddlinrussell
    Registered Users Posts: 978 ✭✭✭riddlinrussell


    ESB Borrowing power increased to €12bn to effect transition to green energy

    https://t.co/yG9IWlxQGl?amp=1


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    #103
    Victor
    Registered Users Posts: 78,246 ✭✭✭✭Victor


    donvito99 wrote: »
    My point remains that the NTA have a responsibility to ensure that whatever is procured does not end up being unreliable and damaging the reputation of the service by leaving passengers stranded because the implications of all electric service patterns were not fully considered.
    Importantly, when the NTA is buying buses, it isn't just buying a bus, it is also buying X years maintenance of the major components. It is in the supplier's (who isn't necessarily the original manufacturer) interest to ensure those components remain operational.


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