BusConnects Dublin - Bus Network Changes Discussion

CatInABox · 25-07-2019 3:18pm

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

We put men on the moon with far less.

No reason to persist with these machines though, why aren't NTA replacing them?

They've started the process to replace them, but it's a smaller part of a larger project. The NTA are moving to Account Based Ticketing, much like the Oyster set up in the UK, and the new machines are going to be part of that project.

Qrt · 25-07-2019 3:19pm

CatInABox wrote: »

They've started the process to replace them, but it's a smaller part of a larger project. The NTA are moving to Account Based Ticketing, much like the Oyster set up in the UK, and the new machines are going to be part of that project.

Have they issued any tenders?

LastStop · 25-07-2019 3:54pm

Qrt wrote: »

Have they issued any tenders?

Didn't a company called Cubic win the tender for the next generation of machines including contactless.

AlekSmart · 26-07-2019 10:29am

LastStop wrote: »

Didn't a company called Cubic win the tender for the next generation of machines including contactless.

Interestingly,TfL is also having a bit of a think,or maybe Rethink on the issue of retiring the Oystercard.

https://londonist.com/london/transport/state-of-the-oyster-card

One stat caught my eye....

This might seem a minor issue considering that Londoners tend to hold onto one Oyster card for years at a time. However, this isn't true of everyone: TfL issues 700,000 new cards monthly.

WOW :eek:

Its equally noteworthy that simple elements can cause heads to be sctarched elsewhere too....

One thing that might've affected this is the new unlimited bus hopper fare. This article from 2016, shows that when the original bus hopper fare launched, there was already talk of an unlimited version. But the Oyster card's prehistoric (by 21st century standards) technology stood in the way; it's a much simpler task on contactless. TfL's tech team must have overcome this obstacle when they introduced the new fare, proof that there was still life in the Oyster card yet.

Work to be done yet in Dublin so....?

markpb · 26-07-2019 12:09pm

LastStop wrote: »

Didn't a company called Cubic win the tender for the next generation of machines including contactless.

They won a mobile ticketing tender for inter-city buses.

jd · 26-07-2019 2:38pm

cgcsb wrote: »

That's impressive work. I can confirm that's pretty accurate. I'll provide more info on locals and expresses when I get the chance.

Have you had a chance to collate the info on locals and expresses?

AlekSmart · 27-07-2019 10:56am

cgcsb wrote: »

I had cause to cycle through Pearse st, College st, Westmoreland St and the south quays in the evening rush a few days ago. This would be an unusual journey for me. It was absolute chaos. Cars just driving around, for significant distance in the bus lanes, cars parked in cycle lanes, Left hand drive tour buses trying to pull out, cyclists weaving in and out of cars and going up on footpaths to get past and pedestrians getting fed up waiting and walking out on front of buses.
Cars driving from Pearse to College st are doing so illegally but they are numerous and they will beep at you if they think you aren't cycling fast enough, and they do this in full view of Pearse St Garda station.

This needs to be fixed, there are too many buses using this area, which Bus Connects will partially fix. Cars have completely lost the run of themselves, they drive and park wherever they like, no consequences. Pedestrians have to wait for long periods to walk a few metres and there is no provision for cycling.

At some point the enforcement issue will have to be addressed.

If,as it appears,the Gardaí do not have the resources,or choose to focus these elsewhere,then the entire City Centre Traffic Policing needs to be either reallocated or automated.

Garda Traffic Law enforcement appears to be focused upon two main areas,Speed Detection and large-scale Vehicle Check Points for tax,insurance,alcohol etc,leaving very little focus upon general driving law enforcement.

This is not Rocket Science,but most certainly,the level of increased risk inherent in walking,cycling or driving through An Lár, now makes some action inevitable,the only question being what level of disaster will prompt such action ? :mad:

is_that_so · 29-07-2019 3:34pm

Some way to go yet in the plan.

https://www.thejournal.ie/busconnects-nta-ministers-4734105-Jul2019

CatInABox · 29-07-2019 5:46pm

is_that_so wrote: »

Some way to go yet in the plan.

https://www.thejournal.ie/busconnects-nta-ministers-4734105-Jul2019

That's just the Journal doing yet another article on the results of a FOI request. I mean, it's grand, informative even, but there's nothing new there at all.

On the other hand, the Irish Times have an article about the BusConnects Core Corridors in Phibsborough. Looks like a vast improvement, and proves the NTA are not just taking on board the criticism around the projects, but are willing to make major changes. A cycleway tunnel under the NCR? That's an impressive solution.

CatInABox · 30-07-2019 3:37pm

BusConnects has released an update on the Core Corridors. They've included the designs that they're currently showing off to the local groups.

https://twitter.com/BusConnects/status/1156207335251107841

Released designs are:
Phibsborough
Kimmage
Inchicore
Stoneybatter
Templeogue

Interestingly, Aughrim St looks like it'll be one way. The N2 must be rerouted in the next phase of the network redesign.

The Kimmage one looks like an utter disaster. I mean, why even include it in BusConnects if it's not going to have any benefit for buses at all? The only option that improves things is the original proposal, the three other options are shared Car/Bus/Cycle lanes. Facepalm.

cgcsb · 30-07-2019 3:54pm

Phibsboro: I'm happy enough with, it's an improvement that can be further improved upon in the future.
Kimmage: not sure what that's about tbh
Terenure: happy enough although it's a long stretch to be depending on bus only signals.

Stoneybatter: Well this is a bit of a clustereff. Aughrim street will become one way but no provision for how this will impact the N2, and more importantly, this will create yet another barrier to cycling; south bound cyclists will instead be diverted from Aughrim st (a pleasant cycle at the moment) to get pinched onto NCR and then a dangerous right turn to Prussia street.

The layout seems to suggest that north bound cyclists on Manor st, wishing to go up Prussia st should turn left onto a short cycle lane and the right again onto a 'shared space and then left to get onto Prussia street, when they can just continue straight. How can this be a serious proposal?

The pinch point between Fancy times and Centra is shown as having a bus lane 2 traffic lanes and a cycle lane, as well all know, the current cycle lane and bus lane are just free parking at the moment, there needs to be some enforcement measures here.

CatInABox · 30-07-2019 4:11pm

I'd missed it back when they tweeted it, but the NTA are waiting on legislation to take over the running of traffic enforcement cameras. This should result in a more effective enforcement regime, as it seems the Guards have absolutely no interest in traffic enforcement.

https://twitter.com/BusConnects/status/1115157869933076480

Qrt · 30-07-2019 4:38pm

Kimmage is...???

I mean, you could bulldoze the area around the Kimmage Road/Sundrive Road junction and it would be an improvement but this???

At least with Templeogue I see bus priority lights, but nothing for Kimmage. Let’s just hope that “work in progress” stamp means just that.

BeerNut · 30-07-2019 5:01pm

Qrt wrote: »

Let’s just hope that “work in progress” stamp means just that.

Maybe the next draft will have bus lanes in it. I think that's part of the project brief.

dfx- · 30-07-2019 5:09pm

CatInABox wrote: »

I'd missed it back when they tweeted it, but the NTA are waiting on legislation to take over the running of traffic enforcement cameras. This should result in a more effective enforcement regime, as it seems the Guards have absolutely no interest in traffic enforcement.

https://twitter.com/BusConnects/status/1115157869933076480

Why would the NTA be better at this? Haven't they enough to be doing/re-doing?

D14Rugby · 30-07-2019 5:18pm

These days with AI most of the stuff cameras are needed to do can be automated. It would be really easy to connect everything up to the car registration db and tell cameras what to look up for then automatically send out fines and points. It's just pure laziness to not do it properly.

alentejo · 30-07-2019 5:29pm

What I see in Kimmage with on street parking, slightly wider footpaths. Bus speeds will still be the normal very slow.

D14Rugby · 30-07-2019 5:45pm

Further up that Kimmage route just where it meets Harold's Cross they're running it up a road that's just about wide enough for the two lanes it currently has with no real gardens in front of the houses so god knows how well that's going to work

Qrt · 30-07-2019 5:51pm

D14Rugby wrote: »

Further up that Kimmage route just where it meets Harold's Cross they're running it up a road that's just about wide enough for the two lanes it currently has with no real gardens in front of the houses so god knows how well that's going to work

Between Sundrive Road and Harold’s Cross by Mount Argus? That section isn’t being touched, just made bus only.

EDIT: Christ are they actually proposing no bus gate there????? It just disappears after the first option.

donvito99 · 30-07-2019 6:17pm

Based on the new Kimmage proposals, has the NTA now decided Bus COnnects should forget about improving Bus and cycling infrastructure and instead refocus, spending the money on beautifying and expanding Dublin's on-street parking?

Original plan:

New "work in progress":

D14Rugby · 30-07-2019 6:38pm

Qrt wrote: »

Between Sundrive Road and Harold’s Cross by Mount Argus? That section isn’t being touched, just made bus only.

EDIT: Christ are they actually proposing no bus gate there????? It just disappears after the first option.

They're calling it a "shared surface for buses, cyclists, taxis and local traffic" easy to implement I'd say in any semi competent country, here though I'm not convinced it'll work

donvito99 · 30-07-2019 6:39pm

D14Rugby wrote: »

"shared surface for buses, cyclists, taxis and local traffic"

Don't we have this already?

In fact, isn't this arrangement exactly why Bus Connects was proposed??

L1011 · 30-07-2019 6:53pm

Local traffic as in residents on the streets. Straight through in under a reasonable time to have actually been two journeys could be fined but I doubt they will and will just rely on very rare AGS enforcement

D14Rugby · 30-07-2019 7:02pm

L1011 wrote: »

Local traffic as in residents on the streets. Straight through in under a reasonable time to have actually been two journeys could be fined but I doubt they will and will just rely on very rare AGS enforcement

It would be relatively simple to set time limits allowed on the road between certain points and have cameras at each entrance to/exit from the road, scan licence plates, check it's registered address, if its that street its good, if its not then check when it leaves, if its under the time limit that's good, if not send out a fine. You could even have a system in place to allow home owners to add other plates that are coming to the house to pick up/drop someone off or staying there temporarily. All this would be pretty easy to implement but I doubt they'll bother and give it a few months and every user of that road will be complaining about each other.

Annasopra · 30-07-2019 7:09pm

cgcsb wrote: »

That's all the radials and orbitals done.

Where does the new 11 start and does it goto Shopriver?

Stephen15 · 30-07-2019 7:16pm

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

Where does the new 11 start and does it goto Shopriver?

Wouldn't surprise me if they kept the 185 but probably with a new number. The 11 seems to be a replacement for the 44 and the NTA were saying they were looking at solutions for the Kilgarron area.

dublinman1990 · 30-07-2019 7:56pm

Oh lord. I just seen the proposals for Kimmage. Tbh I don't understand why the NTA would now propose to not at least put through a shared bus & cycle lane through Kimmage in the last 2 options of this plan. I would give the impression here that these proposals for Kimmage actually defeat the purpose of BC in the first place by not giving any bus passengers any more credible incentives to use the buses more often in the area. They are really taking a big risk for putting these revised plans out to the public which, in theory, could spread more anger from residents by giving them the potential to have a much slower bus service. It's not a good idea in my book. The NTA should stick to implementing Option 1 for Kimmage after the consultation as it is the best looking plan out of a bad lot for maintaining an improved bus service.

Spanish Eyes · 30-07-2019 8:03pm

As a walker, (with a car that I never take into the city), I hope people like me are catered for too. Just saying.

The city needs to look after pedestrians too. The footpaths in the city are rammed. It is not pleasant at all.

Honestly, you just have to look at the Greenway projects. It is (well to my mind) all about cyclists, which is fine, but walkers and families with buggies and maybe wheelchairs etc. need a voice too in all this. Every forum I look at about the Greenways seem to be concentrated on cyclists now. NO. We are all equal. Thank you.

john boye · 30-07-2019 10:57pm

dublinman1990 wrote: »

They are really taking a big risk for putting these revised plans out to the public which, in theory, could spread more anger from residents by giving them the potential to have a much slower bus service.

I'm going to guess you don't have local knowledge. The only reason they've come up these alternatives is to placate the residents( with their community not corridor placards in every window of the house), they couldn't care less how slow the buses are.

Qrt · 30-07-2019 11:16pm

john boye wrote: »

I'm going to guess you don't have local knowledge. The only reason they've come up these alternatives is to placate the residents( with their community not corridor placards in every window of the house), they couldn't care less how slow the buses are.

Has anybody pulled up the people on the stretch between Sundrive and Harold's Cross for objecting to the bus gate? i.e. objecting to less traffic on their road?

MJohnston · 31-07-2019 12:14am

john boye wrote: »

I'm going to guess you don't have local knowledge. The only reason they've come up these alternatives is to placate the residents( with their community not corridor placards in every window of the house), they couldn't care less how slow the buses are.

Indeed, the "Kimmage Residents Association" are obnoxious and transparently pro-car on Twitter. Hopefully they'll get the seized up road network they've demanded, it's just a shame they'll have ruined things for the vast majority of silent residents.

Slutmonkey57b · 31-07-2019 5:00am

Why not put together a boards.ie representation group? Put together lists of suggestions and present them on the same footing as residents. Cycling Ireland were doing that I believe.

BeerNut · 31-07-2019 7:41am

Piece on Kimmage in today's Irish Times. The bus gate zone in the revised plan runs from KCR to Harold's Cross Park.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/environment/south-dublin-trees-and-gardens-could-be-saved-under-new-busconnects-design-1.3972336?mode=amp

sharper · 31-07-2019 8:47am

Slutmonkey57b wrote: »

Why not put together a boards.ie representation group? Put together lists of suggestions and present them on the same footing as residents. Cycling Ireland were doing that I believe.

There is the Dublin Commuter Coalition which is a similar idea https://www.dublincommuters.ie/
https://twitter.com/DublinCommuters

Qrt · 31-07-2019 9:35am

“Fianna Fáil city councillor Deirdre Conroy said while the NTA had gone to more effort than previously, it did not appear there were sufficient improvements for cyclists, as they would be sharing the bus lane.”

I’d never thought me and Deirdre would get along so well.

CatInABox · 31-07-2019 10:12am

BeerNut wrote: »

Piece on Kimmage in today's Irish Times. The bus gate zone in the revised plan runs from KCR to Harold's Cross Park.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/environment/south-dublin-trees-and-gardens-could-be-saved-under-new-busconnects-design-1.3972336?mode=amp

Saw that earlier, the plans make more sense now.

The NTA said the bus gate would be governed by signage, but it would consider seeking camera enforcement if the system was not respected.

Considering how much "respect" is shown to the College Green bus gate, I'd guess that the camera would be in place sooner rather than later.

I also wonder if they'll start to restrict taxis from these bus gates. College Green is consistently blocked up with taxis, which is just not sustainable.

Evil_g · 31-07-2019 10:18am

Has anyone asked how getting people out of cars and into taxis solves anything?

cgcsb · 31-07-2019 10:38am

That's some length of bus gate though

Qrt · 31-07-2019 10:46am

Evil_g wrote: »

Has anyone asked how getting people out of cars and into taxis solves anything?

Less parking needed. Also, I think the aim is to get them onto buses...

D14Rugby · 31-07-2019 12:37pm

No cameras just signs? I now give it 3 months before there's complete uproar about it. God love anyone that lives in any of the roads around there, going to be mayhem when this comes in.

BeerNut · 31-07-2019 1:17pm

D14Rugby wrote: »

going to be mayhem when this comes in.

And everyone's just tootling along merrily on the back streets of Kimmage now, are they? If it wasn't already mayhem there would be no need for BusConnects.

D14Rugby · 31-07-2019 1:26pm

BeerNut wrote: »

And everyone's just tootling along merrily on the back streets of Kimmage now, are they? If it wasn't already mayhem there would be no need for BusConnects.

Adding more buses with just signs to try stop people blocking it up is going to make it much worse.

BeerNut · 31-07-2019 1:30pm

So, hang on: is the traffic going to divert according to the signage and choke the side streets, or ignore the signs and continue choking LKR? You can't have both.

MJohnston · 31-07-2019 1:33pm

Bus gates, rather than bus lanes, tend to work fairly well in Ireland, weirdly enough. College Green is mostly blocked by taxis rather than private vehicles, and the odd blitz that the Garda do of the area seems to keep the peace. I'd imagine when these new bus gates open, there will be a heavy police presence for the first couple of weeks.

D14Rugby · 31-07-2019 1:37pm

BeerNut wrote: »

So, hang on: is the traffic going to divert according to the signage and choke the side streets, or ignore the signs and continue choking LKR? You can't have both.

You can have both, that's sort of how traffic works, one road gets blocked up and all the roads that lead onto/off from it get blocked up as a result

cgcsb · 31-07-2019 1:41pm

BeerNut wrote: »

So, hang on: is the traffic going to divert according to the signage and choke the side streets, or ignore the signs and continue choking LKR? You can't have both.

It doesn't really work like that. Traffic isn't like water in a pipe at constant pressure, it's a much more fickle phenomenon. The perceived lack of utility of other routes will prevent many car trips from taking place in the first place.

cgcsb · 31-07-2019 1:44pm

There needs to be cameras and cold hard AI enforcement. Not just in Kimamge but across Dublin. It works well in Belfast so can be easily replicated. Even with our current set of bus lanes if there were strong enforcement, and thus 95% compliance, journey times would be greatly reduced without spending anything on new bus lanes.

Tom1991 · 31-07-2019 1:49pm

BeerNut wrote: »

And everyone's just tootling along merrily on the back streets of Kimmage now, are they? If it wasn't already mayhem there would be no need for BusConnects.

Farce of a situation really but I lived in poddle close(not far from kimmage road)and worked on George’s street for a time and would handidly beat the 9 walking its route some evenings.I used to make a game of it sometimes in my head.The community not corridor crowd are taking the tantrum approach to this and winning.Theres edge cases I’m sure that can be accommodated for but for the most part you have no business driving into the city centre for work in a 9-5 scenario.

cgcsb · 31-07-2019 1:59pm

It's the south west of the city that stands to gain the most form bus connects, mostly due to the existing road widths and lack of bus priority. Compare it to the Malahide road or Bray-City Centre cbc, both of which are more/less already there. Ironically the places that have little/nothing to gain from the cbc project are the quietest about it. Places like Kimmage will be brought within 15 mins commute of the quays by bus connects in peak times, that's a tremendous win compared to the current walking pace of buses at peak times.

D14Rugby · 31-07-2019 2:09pm

cgcsb wrote: »

It's the south west of the city that stands to gain the most form bus connects, mostly due to the existing road widths and lack of bus priority. Compare it to the Malahide road or Bray-City Centre cbc, both of which are more/less already there. Ironically the places that have little/nothing to gain from the cbc project are the quietest about it. Places like Kimmage will be brought within 15 mins commute of the quays by bus connects in peak times, that's a tremendous win compared to the current walking pace of buses at peak times.

Problem people in the south west is while I'm largely in favour of bus connects the plans are half ased and done by someone that hasn't experienced commuting in the area and the expansion capacity isn't really there, it's a short to medium term fix that will need completely redoing in a decade or two with all the new housing estates being built south west of the city.

BusConnects Dublin - Bus Network Changes Discussion

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