"Non book readers" - Season 8 Episode 5 "The bells" - Spoilers post 2 forward

PTH2009 · 13-05-2019 3:39am

Wheres Bronn ??

shrewdness · 13-05-2019 3:39am

Need time to digest that, second half of the episode was pure nuts. Cersei's death was a little underwhelming, I'd expected someone to do her to get revenge but no, even in death she kinda got away with it a little. And Jaime was with her to the end, suppose it fits well.

One thing that annoyed me a bit was how Jaime was still strolling around fairly fine after Euron had stabbed him in the torso fairly badly twice. He looked completely fecked after the first, but the second one looked more like a.shot of adrenaline!

Anyway don't want to pick holes too much as I was gripped. Dany has lost the plot completely, Jon must be changing his allegiance now. Lools like they're set for a showdown now but God knows how it'll all play out.

J. Marston · 13-05-2019 3:39am

Not sure how they even approach Dany in the final episode now. Gone completely off the deep end.

Ferajacka · 13-05-2019 3:40am

RickBlaine wrote: »

I think they made Cersei to be as sympathetic as possible in this episode. She was basically terrified for most of it. Dany was the real villain of the episode.

I still don't forgive C and J for what they did to Ned and Bran so reckon they got what they deserved.

Grayditch · 13-05-2019 3:41am

I can't even convey they the disappointment....

Deeper Blue · 13-05-2019 3:41am

RickBlaine wrote: »

I think they made Cersei to be as sympathetic as possible in this episode. She was basically terrified for most of it. Dany was the real villain of the episode.

But considering all that she's done over the last 8 seasons surely we deserved to see her get her comeuppance à la Joffrey? I feel a bit cheated tbh

Necro · 13-05-2019 3:41am

The initial buzz I got from Dany taking down the fleet and the ballistas was amazing. Cos, let's face it those things were like those cheat codes everyone used to know in GTA.

Then the bells begin to ring yet she burns the entire city and suddenly you're like... um, ok that's not right.....you've won now
OMFG you're now committing mass murder you Mad Queen!!!

I thought that was absolutely unbelievable. The acting, the way scenes were shot.

I'm sure some will come on and whinge about some nitpicking nonsense but can we all just take a moment and realise this was not a movie but a TV show, a feature length episode that was simply amazing.

ardinn · 13-05-2019 3:46am

I was like

via Imgflip Meme Generator

Airyfairy12 · 13-05-2019 3:47am

Why did she burn the place down after they surrendered? Made no sense at all, and how did Arya survive the dragon fire? She was literally surrounded by ash and charred bodies but didn't even singe her hair? Made no sense.

nix · 13-05-2019 3:47am

I enjoyed it, mainly because literally everything got burned to the ground. But it was all completely silly tbh

It was a pretty solid episode, up until the bells rang. She attacked with pretty much surgical precision, knocking out all major defenses and opening the way for her infantry. Then just says "**** it" and kills everybody... LOL

Dany has always done what was right or what she had to do, but never ever, not once was it at the cost of innocent life for 7+ seasons. And In the space of two episodes she puts Darth Vader to shame and single handedly commits genocide on her own people and civilians of kings landing :pac:

soap1978 · 13-05-2019 3:49am

nix wrote:

Dany has always done what was right or what she had to do, but never ever, not once was it at the cost of innocent life for 7+ seasons. And In the space of two episodes she puts Darth Vader to shame and single handedly commits genocide on her own people and civilians of kings landing

PMS

ardinn · 13-05-2019 3:50am

nix wrote: »

I enjoyed it, mainly because literally everything got burned to the ground. But it was all completely silly tbh

It was a pretty solid episode, up until the bells rang. She attacked with pretty much surgical precision, knocking out all major defenses and opening the way for her infantry. Then just says "**** it" and kills everybody... LOL

Dany has always done what was right or what she had to do, but never ever, not once was it at the cost of innocent life for 7+ seasons. And In the space of two episodes she puts Darth Vader to shame and single handedly commits genocide on her own people and civilians of kings landing :pac:

she turned mad queen - I thought it was fairly obvious

RickBlaine · 13-05-2019 3:51am

Airyfairy12 wrote: »

Why did she burn the place down after they surrendered? Made no sense at all, and how did Arya survive the dragon fire? She was literally surrounded by ash and charred bodies but didn't even singe her hair? Made no sense.

nix wrote: »

I enjoyed it, mainly because literally everything got burned to the ground. But it was all completely silly tbh

It was a pretty solid episode, up until the bells rang. She attacked with pretty much surgical precision, knocking out all major defenses and opening the way for her infantry. Then just says "**** it" and kills everybody... LOL

Dany has always done what was right or what she had to do, but never ever, not once was it at the cost of innocent life for 7+ seasons. And In the space of two episodes she puts Darth Vader to shame and single handedly commits genocide on her own people and civilians of kings landing :pac:

In the space of a short time, she has lost Ser Jorah, one of her Dragons, Missandre; had a claim to the throne threatened by Jon; rejected by Jon as a lover; and witnessed the people of Westeros treat her as an outsider while revering Jon.

To quote the Joker from The Dark Night, "madness is like gravity...all it takes is a little push"

ShaneU · 13-05-2019 3:52am

nix wrote: »

I enjoyed it, mainly because literally everything got burned to the ground. But it was all completely silly tbh

It was a pretty solid episode, up until the bells rang. She attacked with pretty much surgical precision, knocking out all major defenses and opening the way for her infantry. Then just says "**** it" and kills everybody... LOL

Dany has always done what was right or what she had to do, but never ever, not once was it at the cost of innocent life for 7+ seasons. And In the space of two episodes she puts Darth Vader to shame and single handedly commits genocide on her own people and civilians of kings landing :pac:

Everyone she trusted either died or betrayed her, she chose to rule by fear because no one loved her.

mrkiscool2 · 13-05-2019 3:54am

RickBlaine wrote: »

In the space of a short time, she has lost Ser Jorah, one of her Dragons, Missandre; had a claim to the throne threatened by Jon; rejected by Jon as a lover; and witnessed the people of Westeros treat her as an outsidee while revering Jon.

To quote the Joker from The Dark Night, "madness is like gravity...all it takes is a little push"

Honestly, even if this was all we saw in the way of her "being mad" all those reasons would make sense.

However, she has literally murdered anyone opposed to her on countless occasions. She has done some pretty crazy and wreckless things (stepping into her husbands burning pyre, reacted like a sociopath when her brother was killed, made a plot to kill all the Khalsars to inherit the Dothraki etc. etc.) in the name of power. She is power-mad and it makes absolute sense for her to do what she did.

Like, say what you want about the first four episodes. I've enjoyed them but I can see the gripes. Hell, I've even agreed with some. But this episode makes sense in so many ways.

bur · 13-05-2019 4:07am

She knows the people will never love her so chose to rule by fear.

13-05-2019 4:10am

Deleted User wrote: »

Only as far as the first add break but its been brilliant so far. (IMO)

Please please please continue

Just finished it there and I thought that was excellent a truly brilliant piece of entertainment.

That was gripping from start to finish and so well paced.

I really loved Cerci's finish as it showed her up to be, what she was a very immature character confused about her feelings and the only way she dealt with them was through over reactions to them.

I don't normally notice stuff so it was probably very obvious but the wildfire that went off as denarous tore down the city, obviously shows Cerci had planned to do the same if forces had gotten that far.

I'm still unsure as to who set the bell off though.

It was fantastic IMO, and thats from someone who gave the last 2 episodes major ****

Grayditch · 13-05-2019 4:13am

Looked like absolute garbage aswel.

nix · 13-05-2019 4:17am

mrkiscool2 wrote: »

stepping into her husbands burning pyre

Well she was fooked anyway and she knew she couldnt burn from previous experiences, like taking the bath in the scalding water.

mrkiscool2 wrote: »

reacted like a sociopath when her brother was killed

Yeah she should have been real choked up when her actual sociopath brother, who beat her, whored her out and claimed he would let the entire dothraki army rape her if it got him back on the iron throne, pretty much committed suicide swinging his sword and throwing insults at a load of savages :pac:

mrkiscool2 wrote: »

made a plot to kill all the Khalsars to inherit the Dothraki

a power play yes, but they all wanted to rape/kill her, and they would have if she didnt burn/kill them first, and she did so without.. guess what! without killing any innocent..

Again im not against this transition she made, i just think they should have done a more fluid progression to her getting like that.. Pretty sure her Father took a lot longer than a finger snap before he started with his bonfire parties :pac:

13-05-2019 4:23am

Also the whole thing was done superbly, visually for me at least from an understanding they didnt have an unlimited cgi budget.

They really focused on the people in the epsiode while making the last dragon an random threat (similar to the white walkers in earlier seasons)

I know the dragon and denarous had a big scene but after that it was so well done everyone in the city under constant threat of dying (again very like GOT)

And we got IMO a great death scene, when I thought they were getting away with it Jamie and Cerci died as when I saw the building start to fall I didnt think it would get to them (it was really well oppositely forshadowed)

I didnt even expect to be this far in the story this week so next week is already a head scrathcer in some ways

mrkiscool2 · 13-05-2019 4:27am

nix wrote: »

Well she was fooked anyway and she knew she couldnt burn from previous experiences, like taking the bath in the scalding water.

I can, at best, give you this. I still think that not being scalded by water (that she may not know was scalding, particularly as she never bathe alone, she always had attendants helping) isn't a reason to go "Hey, I won't die in a fire!". Also, at worst, it's a plot contrivance in both the books and show so she doesn't die outside Qarth and gets her dragons. Still think it's fooking insane and also she burns the witch while Drogo burns

Yeah she should have been real choked up when her actual sociopath brother, who beat her, whored her out and claimed he would let the entire dothraki army rape her if it got him back on the iron throne, pretty much committed suicide swinging his sword and throwing insults at a load of savages :pac:

Yeah, like, survivors of abuse always react like sociopaths when their abuser dies. Everytime, it happens each and every time. Please, no-one would react to losing a family member, no matter how horrid they were, that way. I don't wanna bring anecdotes in here but there are numerous famous cases of victims of family abuse being sad their abuser, who was a father/mother/brother/sister etc. die.

a power play yes, but they all wanted to rape/kill her, and they would have if she didnt burn/kill them first, and she did so without.. guess what! without killing any innocent..

Firstly, they couldn't rape her. Even the Khal she talks to admits this. Sure, they MAY have decided to kill her but, again, she had a chance to get out of there scott free due to Dario and Jorah but nope, burn them all anyway!

Again im not against this transition she made, i just think they should have done a more fluid progression to her getting like that.. Pretty sure her Father took a lot longer than a finger snap before he started with his bonfire parties :pac:

Again, you've shown no evidence to prove you are correct and have grossly misunderstand how people react. So, not really sure you're the best person to be talking about how people should act, even in writing, honestly.

nix · 13-05-2019 4:41am

mrkiscool2 wrote: »

Again, you've shown no evidence to prove you are correct and have grossly misunderstand how people react. So, not really sure you're the best person to be talking about how people should act, even in writing, honestly.

The entire show prior is the evidence, show me one scenario where she compromises the loss of innocent life for her own self gain. Anybody she killed, they were either trying to harm her or were done so by refusing to abolish slavery.

Even when she killed the Khals she done so in an effort to free the Khaleesis and grow her army and change their murderous/raping ways.

Then she sailed to Westeros and people died in war, or if they refused to bend the knee (cant be leaving people in power that want to kill/**** you over)

Then at kings landing she goes full dark side, it just didnt make sense. Dont get me wrong, i enjoyed it, the season was a write off before this episode so im kinda glad it just got all burnt down :pac:

mrkiscool2 · 13-05-2019 4:54am

nix wrote: »

The entire show prior is the evidence, show me one scenario where she compromises the loss of innocent life for her own self gain. Anybody she killed, they were either trying to harm her or were done so by refusing to abolish slavery.

Even when she killed the Khals she done so in an effort to free the Khaleesis and grow her army and change their murderous/raping ways.

Then she sailed to Westeros and people died in war, or if they refused to bend the knee (cant be leaving people in power that want to kill/**** you over)

Then at kings landing she goes full dark side, it just didnt make sense. Dont get me wrong, i enjoyed it, the season was a right off before this episode so im kinda glad it just got all burnt down :pac:

Ironically, this proves my point for me. Like, the best way to ban slavery is....to kill people who don't want to ban slavery? Like, if anyone opposes her, in any way, she kills them. It doesn't matter whether they can be decent people or not, she has them killed, with the exception of the master she wants to marry to keep power (see how she will accept people if it means her power is actually kept in tact? Weird, almost like she doesn't actually want to break the wheel, but just alter it to fit her!)

Again, both the books and show have shown, numerous times, Dany does have the bit of madness in her. It's something she has fought for a long time. Eventually, all the things crumble and so does her ability to fight it back when she has to. It is good writing, one of the rare bits in this season that has built on both the writing in the books and it's own writing.

leggo · 13-05-2019 5:02am

I’m sorry but you haven’t been paying attention if you don’t understand how Dany snapped, they’ve been setting it up the whole time (right back to her House of Undying vision in S2 which literally foreshadowed what was to come here). The coin flip line Cersei used about Targaryens was revisited in this episode just to hammer it home. We’ve seen Dany show murderous and power hungry intent before, but she was always reeled in by those around her who she trusted. All of those, save for Greyworm, are now dead. The ones she has left? She perceives as betraying her and letting her down with their counsel. Olenna told her in S7: “You’re a dragon. Be a dragon.” These are all the things that she’s weighing up when she makes her split second decision after hearing the bells ring.

Those are all off the top of my head. Is it satisfying? No, it’s not supposed to be satisfying when someone we thought at one stage was the hero turns evil. It’s tragedy. We’ve seen what brought her to this, seen what could’ve been had it gone the other way, and on some level we can empathise with her while still remaining horrified by her actions. In the same way we could take a snapshot of Cersei, despite her many atrocities, and her tearful plea for life to Jaime and feel momentarily bad for her. It’s not black and white, good guys and bad guys. It’s about how this world shapes the people in it and how they react.

nix · 13-05-2019 5:09am

mrkiscool2 wrote: »

Ironically, this proves my point for me. Like, the best way to ban slavery is....to kill people who don't want slavery? Like, if anyone opposes her, in any way, she kills them. It doesn't matter whether they can be decent people or not, she has them killed, with the exception of the master she wants to marry to keep power (see how she will accept people if it means her power is actually kept in tact? Weird, almost like she doesn't actually want to break the wheel, but just alter it to fit her!)

In the game of thrones world, they dont really do long term prisons, so yeah the best way to stop slavery is to free the slaves and kill those who enslave people. Would you rather she give them community service and send them to anti-slavery therapy?

mrkiscool2 wrote: »

Again, both the books and show have shown, numerous times, Dany does have the bit of madness in her. It's something she has fought for a long time. Eventually, all the things crumble and so does her ability to fight it back when she has to. It is good writing, one of the rare bits in this season that has built on both the writing in the books and it's own writing.

She had the battle in the bag before the bells rung, she knew it, so tell me, why is her flying around kings landing then after for an hour burning everything and anybody, deemed something she had to do?

mrkiscool2 · 13-05-2019 5:18am

After this I'm done arguing with you. Not because I can't be bothered having good discussions, but because you ignore points I make just to make your weak arguments look better. Either show me that all I think is wrong by attacking everything in my post or don't bother. It's how debating and discussion works.

nix wrote: »

In the game of thrones world, they dont really do long term prisons, so yeah the best way to stop slavery is to free the slaves and kill those who enslave people. Would you rather she give them community service and send them to anti-slavery therapy?

Firstly, they do long term prisons. In Westeros you either can be long-term imprisoned or hanged, or take the black. Like, they absolutely do have prisons and long term ones. Secondly, Sons of the Harpy forms out of violence. The whole War of the 5 Kings comes from violence. The show has been at pains to show that violence begets violence. So yes, killing the masters probably isn't going to lead to good long-term results and it hasn't. I'd be interested to see how Mareen and other places are coping now that Dany and her dragons aren't there. But sure, ignore the fact she was going to marry a master, in favour of slavery, to consolidate her position. Nice job.

She had the battle in the bag before the bells rung, she knew it, so tell me, why is her flying around kings landing then after for an hour burning everything and anybody, deemed something she had to do?

She did have the battle in the bag, I am not denying that. But, again, she is sending a message. Either bend to me, or die. A tryant does that, not a real ruler. She even sees "Let it be fear then" to Jon at the start of the episode. It's pretty clear she will do anything to not only get, but stay on her throne.

Jamiekelly · 13-05-2019 5:23am

Some people are easily pleased. I side with the cast personally. This has been a massive let down.

s7ryf3925pivug · 13-05-2019 6:07am

nix wrote: »

I enjoyed it, mainly because literally everything got burned to the ground. But it was all completely silly tbh

It was a pretty solid episode, up until the bells rang. She attacked with pretty much surgical precision, knocking out all major defenses and opening the way for her infantry. Then just says "**** it" and kills everybody... LOL

Dany has always done what was right or what she had to do, but never ever, not once was it at the cost of innocent life for 7+ seasons. And In the space of two episodes she puts Darth Vader to shame and single handedly commits genocide on her own people and civilians of kings landing :pac:

Tyrion planned the attack with the surgical precision, not Dany. Remember him telling Jaime he knew they'd win because he knew the city's defences.

13-05-2019 6:16am

Just when you'd think the show's conclusion couldn't dive any further into a tailspin...It goes and totally redeems itself with that

Every major moment and resolution in that episode was earned IMO and the result pays dividends as an invested viewer. From Varys sticking to his guns about the realm and Dany sticking to hers about "Betray me and I will burn you", to Jamie and Cersei going out together and without one last over-dramatic, convenient face-off against Dany, Jon or Tyrion.

What was Cersei going to do anyway? Engage in armed combat against Dany or Jon Snow? Nah, Cersei and Jamie came into this world together and I thought Cersei's 'end' from when Qyburn got smashed onward was written and executed perfectly. The last time Jamie and her were in that room with the floor-map together, they planned to rule the Seven Kingdoms. Now when they are reunited in that same room which is crumbling around them, their only plan is to escape with their lives. However there was to be no dingy or Davos smuggling, no new life in Bravos or beyond, no last minute save...anyone who could do anything for them was gone and they were truly alone and out of moves in that tunnel.

The job a TV show did of showing the decimation of a medieval city through fire and blood was gripping and horrific. Technically it was superb, and the story was up there too. For example, how you actually end up almost feeling sorry for Lannister soldiers after they surrendered was well accomplished - It very much got to a 'Stop beating them, they're already dead' phase with Dany and her pillaging of the city after the first 10,000 deaths or so. There were some epic shots and where there were complaints about it being hard to tell what was going on with overall sense of place and scale in the Battle of Winterfell...just random quick shots to many of our main characters struggling...there were some great POVs in this episode. Arya, Jon, even Cersei as she gradually changed her demeanor the closer and more real Dany's devastation got to her window. It all lead to some great story-telling.

No surrender and no prisoners with Dany, no moment to regroup and consult with Jon/Grey Worm/Davos/anyone for her next move, just burn this shít to the ground. I already went TLDR in the Episode 2 thread about how I saw signs over the years that Dany going Mad/Vengeful Queen by the end could be justified. Since then, she's lost another dragon and some close allies while getting piss-poor advice from the Westerosi locals. I have no problem with her transition and think it has been well done. Dany was very much getting to an all or nothing situation, and this devastation was the result of that and her making the strongest play she would ever have left.

Around this time last season we were saying similar about Jon and his effect on a Queen - You couldn't just lie, could you Jon?. This was when he told Cersei that he would always recognise Dany as his Queen, and Cersei threw a shít-fit and pulled out of a ceasefire. Well...even though the thoughts of getting it on with his aunt might be grim, could Jon maybe have saved many lives in KL and all that horror which had him zoning out during the battle if he had have said..."Yep, no problem Dany, we're good, let's do this"? She gave him the choice of "love or fear"...not only did fear come to affect KL in the worst possible way, but I wonder if Jon's days might also be numbered at the hands of Dany.

So what's left for Dany to rule? Ashes, as she had visions of in the House of the Undying earlier in the show. Speaking of earlier in the show, I did also like seeing Bran's dream come to fruition as we saw an extended sequence of a dragon shadow swooping over Kings Landing. Turns out it was Drogon, and if we thought Rhaegal and Viserion were under-powered in recent episodes, well Drogon will surely go down in Westerosi history alongside Balerion the Dread. When the whole battle segment started, I thought Drogon was doing well to get rid of the ballistas and that would be his purpose...haha, that was just him literally getting warmed up. Take a bow Drogon, and a couple of weeks off in the Essos sunshine.

Poor Sandor of House Clegane. Just wtf did Qyburn create with The Mountain?! While the Mountain was about to do the Oberyn squeeze finisher on the Hound, I was thinking 'Stab him in the head!'...well, that didn't work. I do think the Hound met a fitting end and the shot of the brothers plummeting into the flames was a nice closing point.

Anyway, I could keep going but it would be more of the same praise. Thankfully the show's conclusion is back on track (for me anyway) after the previous two episodes which I just wasn't gone on overall. Can't wait to watch this episode again.

P.S. RIP Harry Strickland of The Golden Company. We hardly knew you, praise R'hllor.

Enzokk · 13-05-2019 6:18am

NDWC wrote: »

But considering all that she's done over the last 8 seasons surely we deserved to see her get her comeuppance à la Joffrey? I feel a bit cheated tbh

And there is the problem the show has. You wanted her to die horribly for all the horrible things she has done. Others wanted her to live as she is the best thing on the show. You will not please everyone and the show is finding that out.

nix wrote: »

Dany has always done what was right or what she had to do, but never ever, not once was it at the cost of innocent life for 7+ seasons. And In the space of two episodes she puts Darth Vader to shame and single handedly commits genocide on her own people and civilians of kings landing :pac:

This has been answered before but she did what was right due to her advisers. Usually her first instinct is to burn it all. Look at the battle of Mereen, where she wanted to burn all the ships but Tyrion suggested a different path. What has happened is she has lost half of her army, two of her dragons and all of her trusted advisers bar Tyrion, who she is questioning. So her actions are not a surprise.

nix wrote: »

The entire show prior is the evidence, show me one scenario where she compromises the loss of innocent life for her own self gain. Anybody she killed, they were either trying to harm her or were done so by refusing to abolish slavery.

Even when she killed the Khals she done so in an effort to free the Khaleesis and grow her army and change their murderous/raping ways.

Then she sailed to Westeros and people died in war, or if they refused to bend the knee (cant be leaving people in power that want to kill/**** you over)

Then at kings landing she goes full dark side, it just didnt make sense. Dont get me wrong, i enjoyed it, the season was a write off before this episode so im kinda glad it just got all burnt down :pac:

She went full dark side because she has lost 2 dragons, her 2 friends she was closest to and she feels she may lose the throne as well. Cersei burned down the Sept of Baelor when she was threatened so going irrational is not a surprise in this show. Cersei wasn't even from a incestuous family and she went all mad Queen.

leggo wrote: »

I’m sorry but you haven’t been paying attention if you don’t understand how Dany snapped, they’ve been setting it up the whole time (right back to her House of Undying vision in S2 which literally foreshadowed what was to come here). The coin flip line Cersei used about Targaryens was revisited in this episode just to hammer it home. We’ve seen Dany show murderous and power hungry intent before, but she was always reeled in by those around her who she trusted. All of those, save for Greyworm, are now dead. The ones she has left? She perceives as betraying her and letting her down with their counsel. Olenna told her in S7: “You’re a dragon. Be a dragon.” These are all the things that she’s weighing up when she makes her split second decision after hearing the bells ring.

Those are all off the top of my head. Is it satisfying? No, it’s not supposed to be satisfying when someone we thought at one stage was the hero turns evil. It’s tragedy. We’ve seen what brought her to this, seen what could’ve been had it gone the other way, and on some level we can empathise with her while still remaining horrified by her actions. In the same way we could take a snapshot of Cersei, despite her many atrocities, and her tearful plea for life to Jaime and feel momentarily bad for her. It’s not black and white, good guys and bad guys. It’s about how this world shapes the people in it and how they react.

Good post. She also burned the Tarly's without cause other than they did not show her respect. She could have easily taken them prisoner and shown them mercy but her first instinct was to burn them. Her worst impulses was always tempered by those around her. They are not there any longer so her worst side is showing.

"Non book readers" - Season 8 Episode 5 "The bells" - Spoilers post 2 forward

Comments