"Non book readers" - Season 8 Episode 5 "The bells" - Spoilers post 2 forward

leggo

leggo wrote: »

Imagine you were in a pub chatting about a TV show with others who watch it and there was a lad there who just kept shouting over the conversation, "I DON'T LIKE THIS SHOW ANYMORE!" That's how it feels sometimes this season. Nobody is arguing that people have to like it. A lot of the criticism is absolute muck that just shows the people criticising up for not understanding what they're seeing or saying (e.g. talking about lack of character development while bemoaning how a character is acting in a way they didn't before, which is literally what character development is. If a character acted how they had always acted, they wouldn't have developed), so people are going to get pulled up on it the same way they would if they argued that someone was a bad footballer because they didn't just pick the ball up and run into the goal. That doesn't take away their right to not like football or not be entertained by a particular match. It's just eventually someone is going to ask what they're doing partaking in a conversation about football.

The reality is when someone is at the stage of actively trying to poke holes and find the bad in something, they just don't like that thing anymore. Which is fine. But their only purpose in a conversation among people who still do like it then becomes to try force their opinion down people's throats, which is just an irritating way to act in general. So that's going to lead to people being like, "Just watch something you do like dude and let us chat about this without trying to ruin it."

One more week and I can go back to doing that.

I don't know what to say about that episode. Genuinely bored halfway through that I glanced at boards, broke my own rule by not giving it my undivided attention, not even caring if I read a spoiler. I want spoilers at this point. Just be done with it. Bah humbug.

Effects

Effects wrote: »

Probably not the best show for you so. Try the Walking Dead maybe?

Thanks, I'll check it out

leggo

nix wrote: »

You can feck off with your constant retconning ****e The vision back then was clearly to show what happens to Kings landing with the Night kings story arc, its clearly snow not ash and she exits the throne room through the Nights watch gate and into the north. If you want to pretend all along that was ash be my guest, but if it looks like snow, falls like snow and sounds like snow (footsteps), its snow :rolleyes::pac:

Why does it being snow mean it's to do with the Night King? You do realise that winter still happened when the Night King wasn't around like? It's a season, we get it too in the real world, the Night King didn't invent snow or winter.

Stop being patronising when you're the one who doesn't understand what's happening. Every week this happens with you. :rolleyes::pac:

2ndcoming

Penn wrote: »

Jesus... people can be critical of a few episodes of a show 70+ episodes into it where there has been quite a noticeable tonal shift in without having to be told to go watch something else

To be fair if you were halfway through this particular episode and bored there's not much TV can offer you. Maybe try basejumping or something?

Penn

leggo wrote: »

Imagine you were in a pub chatting about a TV show with others who watch it and there was a lad there who just kept shouting over the conversation, "I DON'T LIKE THIS SHOW ANYMORE!" That's how it feels sometimes this season. Nobody is arguing that people have to like it.

The key word in your sentence there is "shouting". That implies being loud and obnoxious for the sake of it. Whereas if someone who has spent as much time watching the show as the others but have genuine concerns about the quality of the show, they absolutely should be allowed to voice those opinions.

People liked, or even loved the show before this last run of episodes. In some cases, that can simply amplify minor complaints into larger ones, because they want nothing more than for the show to end well and are worried that it won't.

Many people have issues with how this season has gone. It's not the equivalent of one guy at the table shouting he doesn't like it, it's genuine fans finding choices that some of the characters are making and scenarios we are being presented with to be out of step with the previous 6-7 seasons, and that the ending is being rushed without enough time to develop those characters and choices properly. That is a valid criticism. I disagree with some of it, I agree with some of it. But being told to go watch something else is just every bit as much nonsense as shouting "I DON'T LIKE THIS SHOW ANYMORE!" over a conversation.

awec

leggo wrote: »

Why does it being snow mean it's to do with the Night King? You do realise that winter still happened when the Night King wasn't around like? It's a season, we get it too in the real world, the Night King didn't invent snow or winter.

Stop being patronising when you're the one who doesn't understand what's happening. Every week this happens with you. :rolleyes::pac:

You've this really odd habit of thinking that anyone who doesn't agree with your interpretation of the story just doesn't understand it.

As if leggo is the only arbiter of truth in the GOT universe.

PressRun

Absolutely gutted by that treatment of Jamie Lannister.
He was one of my favourite characters and his entire arc is just shat upon. Genuinely think rewatch value is seriously damaged by that.

Soundtrack was absolutely outstanding though. What was playing just before the city was first attacked; while Jaime, Arya and the Hound were moving through the city. They certainly know how to build tension for brief moments.

md23040

At least we found out that The Mountain and Anakin Skywalker are related.

leggo

awec wrote: »

You've this really odd habit of thinking that anyone who doesn't agree with your interpretation of the story just doesn't understand it.

As if leggo is the only arbiter of truth in the GOT universe.

No I can prove he doesn’t understand it. So, with any other show, he could make this argument that it was retconning...except for GOT. Reason being: we know that D&D were told the ending by GRRM before making the show, that’s documented. This is that ending. So they had to have known what they were foreshadowing when they made that scene, because we know they were told as much.

Nix assumed it ‘clearly’ had to have been foreshadowing NK because...snow? (Even though it’s still winter as all of this happening, the NK dying didn’t change the season) But that’s just not possible with what he’s saying, the NK hadn't even been introduced at that stage sure, and he’s a show invention. Therefore, he doesn’t understand what he’s saying. QED.

Podge_irl

leggo wrote: »

Stop being patronising when you're the one who doesn't understand what's happening. Every week this happens with you. :rolleyes::pac:

leggo wrote: »

Clearly going to kill Cersei because he realised it had to be done. The previous scene that was in had Sansa talk about wanting to see her execution, we're supposed to surmise that those words led to the decision he made in the next scene. If anything, I was frustrated with this for the opposite reason because they went through the motions of making it seem like he was changing sides, when it'd still be intriguing enough to have him state his mission up front. But I guess they didn't put the "volanquor" prophesy in the show so it will still be a twist to people who aren't obsessed like me. How did you not pick up on that though?

Gee. It's almost like its not actually as obvious and clear to you as you think it is.

nix

leggo wrote: »

Why does it being snow mean it's to do with the Night King? You do realise that winter still happened when the Night King wasn't around like? It's a season, we get it too in the real world, the Night King didn't invent snow or winter.

Stop being patronising when you're the one who doesn't understand what's happening. Every week this happens with you. :rolleyes::pac:

LOL When does the Night king make his move south? When hes at his strongest (Winter), where does Dany end up walking to from the throne? Outside the bloody wall where the night king is and comes from :rolleyes:

Heck, he can even summon up a storm at will to protect his Generals (White walkers) from dragon attack.

He and the white walkers turn and shatter to ice when they die, so yeah id say they have a link to the cold/winter

For someone who claims we're ignorant, you sure do overlook a lot

thomond2006

awec wrote: »

I think so. The girl he spoke to worked in the kitchen, and they said Dany was refusing food. My take is he was trying to off her.

Oh this makes so much more sense now. I was surprised that there was no (on-screen at least) trial or opportunity for Varys to defend himself. If he was trying to commit murder then that's taken care of.

Areas

I love how people have such an issue with how time passes this season, ye do realise it's not shot in real time

leggo

Podge_irl wrote: »

Gee. It's almost like its not actually as obvious and clear to you as you think it is.

I LOVE being wrong about stuff, it's why I watch TV shows! I don't watch it to prove a point that I'm somehow smarter than these millionaire writers who've worked their way up to get paid big money and write shows that I'm not qualified for, that'd be a weird, narcissistic thing to do. If I predict something and get it right, I'm usually disappointed, because then it means they can't come up with something better than me. I listened to the Binge Mode podcast last week and they walked through how Jaime going back to Cersei made total sense for his character (and, for the record, they shared a lot of the same criticisms many here had so can hardly be accused of retconning), which was way better than my reading of the scene.

nix wrote: »

LOL When does the Night king make his move south? When hes at his strongest (Winter), where does Dany end up walking to from the throne? Outside the bloody wall where the night king is and comes from :rolleyes:

Heck, he can even summon up a storm at will to protect his Generals (White walkers) from dragon attack.

He and the white walkers turn and shatter to ice when they die, so yeah id say they have a link to the cold/winter

For someone who claims we're ignorant, you sure do overlook a lot

You're just going to gloss over the fact that they knew the ending (this) they were foreshadowing when they wrote that scene yeah? Okay...

awec

md23040 wrote: »

At least we found out that The Mountain and Anakin Skywalker are related.

I wish they hadn't taken his helmet off. I think that showing the "zombie" Gregor Clegane was always going to be exceptionally difficult to avoid making him look a bit naff, and I think the helmet off reveal was unnecessary.

He doesn't look like a deader version of the Mountain that fought Oberyn, he just looks like a completely different character.

nix

leggo wrote: »

You're just going to gloss over the fact that they knew the ending (this) they were foreshadowing when they wrote that scene yeah? Okay...

No, what evidence have you to confirm this, enlighten us

leggo

nix wrote: »

No, enlighten us

I've literally done so already. Keep up.

No I can prove he doesn’t understand it. So, with any other show, he could make this argument that it was retconning...except for GOT. Reason being: we know that D&D were told the ending by GRRM before making the show, that’s documented. This is that ending. So they had to have known what they were foreshadowing when they made that scene, because we know they were told as much.

Nix assumed it ‘clearly’ had to have been foreshadowing NK because...snow? (Even though it’s still winter as all of this happening, the NK dying didn’t change the season) But that’s just not possible with what he’s saying, the NK hadn't even been introduced at that stage sure, and he’s a show invention. Therefore, he doesn’t understand what he’s saying. QED.

All because Dani didn't get the ride from Jon Snow huh!?

awec

leggo wrote: »

No I can prove he doesn’t understand it. So, with any other show, he could make this argument that it was retconning...except for GOT. Reason being: we know that D&D were told the ending by GRRM before making the show, that’s documented. This is that ending. So they had to have known what they were foreshadowing when they made that scene, because we know they were told as much.

Nix assumed it ‘clearly’ had to have been foreshadowing NK because...snow? (Even though it’s still winter as all of this happening, the NK dying didn’t change the season) But that’s just not possible with what he’s saying, the NK hadn't even been introduced at that stage sure, and he’s a show invention. Therefore, he doesn’t understand what he’s saying. QED.

There you go again, presenting your take on it and trying to convince us all it's fact.

You've proven nothing. For what it's worth, I think you're a bluffer and making it up as you go along, while simultaneously trying to tell anyone who doesn't believe you that they just don't understand, as if leggo is the only person capable of truly comprehending the minds of D+D.

nix

leggo wrote: »

Nix assumed it ‘clearly’ had to have been foreshadowing NK because...snow? (Even though it’s still winter as all of this happening, the NK dying didn’t change the season) But that’s just not possible with what he’s saying, the NK hadn't even been introduced at that stage sure, and he’s a show invention. Therefore, he doesn’t understand what he’s saying. QED.

Really? Thats what your point is? ****ing hell man, he may not have been seen yet but the threat of the white walkers has been there from the get go, and it ended up being there was a night king. It in no way supports anything you are claiming :rolleyes:

J. Marston

awec wrote: »

I wish they hadn't taken his helmet off. I think that showing the "zombie" Gregor Clegane was always going to be exceptionally difficult to avoid making him look a bit naff, and I think the helmet off reveal was unnecessary.

He doesn't look like a deader version of the Mountain that fought Oberyn, he just looks like a completely different character.

I liked it because it led to a line from Sandor that I thought was very good...

"Yeah, that's you. That's what you've always been."

Adamocovic

md23040 wrote: »

At least we found out that The Mountain and Anakin Skywalker are related.

I in my tired state at 6am did a double glance, was wondering why the Mountain now looked like Varys!

PressRun

And why did Tyrion tell Daenerys about Varys?
He knows deep down that Varys is right.

Don't know which is more exciting; The show, or seeing who leggo will have a stupid fight with this week.

Penn

PressRun wrote: »

And why did Tyrion tell Daenerys about Varys?
He knows deep down that Varys is right.

I think Tyrion thought he might still be able to convince Dany not to attack King's Landing, but to do that he had to be back on her side. Her trust in both was waning and Tyrion knew she'd likely never trust Varys again regardless, he told her about Varys to win enough good grace to try convince her not to attack KL.

I didn't pick up on a possible intent to poison her though, I just thought it was because Varys had betrayed her trust and was seeking for Jon to replace her.

leggo

nix wrote: »

Really? Thats what your point is? ****ing hell man, he may not have been seen yet but the threat of the white walkers has been there from the get go, and it ended up being there was a night king. It in no way supports anything you are claiming :rolleyes:

The Night King doesn't exist in the books. There's a character called 'The Night's King', who was a mystical figure like Bran the Builder, GRRM has as good as confirmed that the Night King we know from the show is D&D's invention. And he didn't exist then. A word hadn't been spoken about him and he didn't show up for two more seasons after the vision. We knew about the White Walkers, we had no idea they had a leader.

Meanwhile, we DO know that they did know the ending to the books when they wrote it (again, this). So why would they foreshadow something that they weren't going to do when they knew what they were?

Oh yeah. Snow. :pac:

Mod: User given a day off

nix

leggo wrote: »

The Night King doesn't exist in the books. There's a character called 'The Night's King', who was a mystical figure like Bran the Builder, GRRM has as good as confirmed that the Night King we know from the show is D&D's invention. And he didn't exist then. A word hadn't been spoken about him and he didn't show up for two more seasons after the vision. We knew about the White Walkers, we had no idea they had a leader.

Meanwhile, we DO know that they did know the ending to the books when they wrote it (again, this). So why would they foreshadow something that they weren't going to do when they knew what they were?

Oh yeah. Snow. :pac:

I know hes a D&D invention it still doesnt counter what I've said, and how do we know they knew their ending that far back? are you talking about a rumor you read somewhere? The way the writing has gone, its not supporting that at all.

awec

leggo wrote: »

The Night King doesn't exist in the books. There's a character called 'The Night's King', who was a mystical figure like Bran the Builder, GRRM has as good as confirmed that the Night King we know from the show is D&D's invention. And he didn't exist then. A word hadn't been spoken about him and he didn't show up for two more seasons after the vision. We knew about the White Walkers, we had no idea they had a leader.

Meanwhile, we DO know that they did know the ending to the books when they wrote it (again, this). So why would they foreshadow something that they weren't going to do when they knew what they were?

Oh yeah. Snow. :pac:

I think anyone who now claims that the visions in season 2 were a hint as to what was coming last night is a bull****ter.

A vision of a wintery throne room, deserted and covered in snow, to hint at Kings Landing being destroyed by a dragon?



I don't believe the vision means what you think it means. Too much mental gymnastics required to have it add up. I don't have an explanation for it, and I'm not going to pretend like I have one either, like I'm some sort of genius seeing things that nobody else is willing to see. Maybe the visions were of events that never came to pass? Maybe they didn't really know the ending back then? Maybe it was more symbolic than literal, Dany all alone in the throne room? It definitely wasn't foreshadowing it being burnt to pieces.

leggo

Deleted User wrote: »

Don't know which is more exciting; The show, or seeing who leggo will have a stupid fight with this week.

It's the same people every week man. It's a formula at this stage...

Come in.

Criticise the writing for bits they didn't understand.

Get corrected.

Argue about the meaning of simple concepts like the word "opinion" or the concept of turning left because they've been too patronising to everyone else so can't just say, "Oh yeah, I got mixed up, my bad" when proven wrong.

Watch the next episode.

Start again.