New Worldwide Handicap System

DuckSlice · 24-09-2020 8:41am

SEORG wrote: »

Here is a link to an online Handicap Index calculator - https://www.calculator.net/golf-handicap-calculator.html

You need the Course Rating & Course Slope Rating of the course you played.

Enter your last 20 results with these 2 values & it'll do the rest for you.

You can get the CR & CSR from here - http://ncrdb.usga.org/ (not sure if these are all up to date)

Found it...…

I ran mine through I would be 8.9, I'm currently 9.7.

Rikand · 24-09-2020 9:12am

I'm down to 7.8 now. Couple more good rounds hopefully before the end of the year and I might just hold on to 7. Have 3 +11's I want to get rid of

(Current congu exact 6.5)

prawnsambo · 24-09-2020 9:23am

etxp wrote: »

Found it...…

I ran mine through I would be 8.9, I'm currently 9.7.

Not sure how accurate these are. We had a collection of course and slope ratings on another thread, all data taken from scorecards that posters here submitted and I just checked a couple of them and they don't match.

For example (comparing same sets of tees):

Dromoland Castle - 126, 126, 124. USGA - 129, 125, 124
Enniscrone Dunes - 133, 131, 123, 111. USGA - 124, 122, 114, 109
Castlemartyr - 133, 126, 131. USGA - 131, 128, 132
Mount Juliet - 148, 136. USGA 142, 138

Some big differences there.

Mantis Toboggan · 24-09-2020 9:52am

I'm currently 13.2 but projected to go out to 16.5.

If these handicaps come in next month and if there's no qualifying over winter will these handicaps stick for winter or will they stick with the current?

IAmTitleist · 24-09-2020 10:29am

Mine has went from 8.3 currently to 8.1 on new system.

Salvadoor · 24-09-2020 10:56am

I went from 6.6 to 6.2 using all rounds (competition & social) that I track myself

Russman · 24-09-2020 11:27am

Looks like I'll be going from 8.9 out to 10.4 unless I get the finger out in the next few weeks.

techdiver · 24-09-2020 11:37am

When comparing your new index to your current handicap you must remember in nearly all cases your index will be a lower starting point that you will rarely play off unless you have a really low index.

Example, if your index is 12 and you play a course with a course rating of 72 and a slope of something like 125 you will actually play off 13. In this configuration you wold need to have an index of 4 before you would actually play off 4. 5 and above will give you an extra shot, 14 and above will give you 2 shots and 24 and above will give you 3 shots.

OS_Head · 24-09-2020 12:55pm

I've gone from 14.9 to 13.2.

My question is this. When playing off different tees my handicap changes.

For example. In St. Margarets

Tee Par Rating Slope Calculated H/C
Black 73 73.9 136 17
Blue 73 72.3 134 15
White 73 71.3 131 14

Given I have a new handicap index of 13.2, my handicap on the day would change to 17 for black, 15 for blue and 14 for white. Longer hitters would be able to take advantage of this on competition day. Given that a long hitter could get 3 or 4 shots back and it may not affect their score too much.

hurleronditch · 24-09-2020 2:54pm

OS_Head wrote: »

I've gone from 14.9 to 13.2.

My question is this. When playing off different tees my handicap changes.

For example. In St. Margarets

Tee Par Rating Slope Calculated H/C
Black 73 73.9 136 17
Blue 73 72.3 134 15
White 73 71.3 131 14

Given I have a new handicap index of 13.2, my handicap on the day would change to 17 for black, 15 for blue and 14 for white. Longer hitters would be able to take advantage of this on competition day. Given that a long hitter could get 3 or 4 shots back and it may not affect their score too much.

You are correct, but long hitters are generally lower handicap, so moving to black tees will give them back less - ie a 4 handicapper may only go to 5, where you get 4 shots extra off of 17 around the black, which should cancel out the length advantage.

If you are talking about a longer hitting 13.2 index identical to yourself, that can’t be compensated for. Gotta hit the gym and pump those numbers up. Those are rookie numbers.

WH BONNEY · 24-09-2020 3:04pm

If you are given a minus handicap on the index of handicap calculator how can this be entered on the course calculator.

Just asking for a friend

OS_Head · 24-09-2020 5:55pm

hurleronditch wrote: »

You are correct, but long hitters are generally lower handicap, so moving to black tees will give them back less - ie a 4 handicapper may only go to 5, where you get 4 shots extra off of 17 around the black, which should cancel out the length advantage.

If you are talking about a longer hitting 13.2 index identical to yourself, that can’t be compensated for. Gotta hit the gym and pump those numbers up. Those are rookie numbers.

I wasn't really talking about myself. I do hit it a little bit longer than other auldfellas around my own age. I was also thinking, some of the really older guys could be playing off the front tees because they wouldn't be that long off the tee but they would make it up around the greens. I know it's swings and round abouts an all.

I wonder if the comps would allow you to choose your tee. It would make it interesting.

hurleronditch · 24-09-2020 6:44pm

OS_Head wrote: »

I wasn't really talking about myself. I do hit it a little bit longer than other auldfellas around my own age. I was also thinking, some of the really older guys could be playing off the front tees because they wouldn't be that long off the tee but they would make it up around the greens. I know it's swings and round abouts an all.

I wonder if the comps would allow you to choose your tee. It would make it interesting.

It would be interesting but also messy. Insider information would be key as tees aren’t fixed. The blacks might be flagged as say 6900 and a set slope on the scorecard but due to tee boxes being out of action or pushed up it might be playing 200 yards shorter, and someone in the know might game the system.

Way too messy to then readjust for conditions on the day, especially if only a couple of players play off a particular tee that day

prawnsambo · 24-09-2020 7:27pm

hurleronditch wrote: »

It would be interesting but also messy. Insider information would be key as tees aren’t fixed. The blacks might be flagged as say 6900 and a set slope on the scorecard but due to tee boxes being out of action or pushed up it might be playing 200 yards shorter, and someone in the know might game the system.

Way too messy to then readjust for conditions on the day, especially if only a couple of players play off a particular tee that day

The rules on tee boxes stipulate that the markers can't be more than 10m in front or behind the permanent markers. Also the course distance for a given set of tees can't be 100m more or less than the published course length for those tees. So you can't have the situation you describe.

hurleronditch · 24-09-2020 7:39pm

prawnsambo wrote: »

The rules on tee boxes stipulate that the markers can't be more than 10m in front or behind the permanent markers. Also the course distance for a given set of tees can't be 100m more or less than the published course length for those tees. So you can't have the situation you describe.

That’s interesting, I didn’t know that. Thanks. You’d wonder how strictly green keepers stick to that on a daily basis though?

I’m basing it on America where all casual rounds counted, and on a muni course I used play a lot the blues would either be back at the tips, or else stuck at the back of the whites box on the first, and that usually set the tone for all the other tees. You’d know what days you’d get “value for money” out of playing the blues trying to get the handicap down, or when it made sense to just play the whites.

One hole in particular if marked off the correct boxes, the blues made it a 360/370 yd par 4, with a narrow tunnel of trees off the tee making it play a dogleg. If they were pushed up with the whites they played about 310, with a downhill ridge at about 270 off the tee that if you caught one you could catch and get on the green with the tee shot. OB right but you had to go for it if the tees were up. Great hole.

GreeBo · 24-09-2020 8:00pm

OS_Head wrote: »

I wonder if the comps would allow you to choose your tee. It would make it interesting.

You can choose your tee, but that would be a separate competition, you couldn't have people in the same comp off different tees.

prawnsambo · 24-09-2020 8:07pm

GreeBo wrote: »

You can choose your tee, but that would be a separate competition, you couldn't have people in the same comp off different tees.

Yes you can. Plenty of comps have ladies playing off different tees from men. And juniors on different tees as well. The WHS allows for even more flexibility in this regard.

prawnsambo · 24-09-2020 8:10pm

hurleronditch wrote: »

That’s interesting, I didn’t know that. Thanks. You’d wonder how strictly green keepers stick to that on a daily basis though?

I'd say many don't know. Can't remember if this is new for WHS or an existing rule, but I know courses where the permanent markers are at the back of the tee boxes, so the 10m more can't really happen. But it's quite possible that they can go more than 10m shorter. And probably do frequently.

OS_Head · 24-09-2020 8:37pm

prawnsambo wrote: »

Yes you can. Plenty of comps have ladies playing off different tees from men. And juniors on different tees as well. The WHS allows for even more flexibility in this regard.

I was thinking something along the same lines. Well with the ladys tees anyways. I do hope the WHS allows this.

I think being able to choose a tee might help add another level of strategy employed on the day, particularly if you know the course well. Depending on an individual players strength, it would bring different obstacles into play, like bunkers and penalty areas and remove others. Knowing where you have shots gained and lost would also help one to make decisions on which tee to choose. On a windy day you might go off the front tees.

Again using St Margarets as an example. They have 5 par 5s and a very long uphill par 4. Playing off the front tees opens up the chance of being able to really go for the greens in 2. That's a big incentive for me to take out the 3 wood for a second shot, whereas I wouldn't usually, if the green was just out of my reach. Plus being able to play shorter irons on the par 3s. If that was a strength of your game, well so be it. Allowing you to play the game more to your strengths.

Seve OB · 24-09-2020 9:31pm

GreeBo wrote: »

You can choose your tee, but that would be a separate competition, you couldn't have people in the same comp off different tees.

I think that’s the way it should be.
Aul fellas playing the red comp.
Good lady players playing the blue comp.

Handicaps allow for the difference.
With this in mind, it really is one sport Where ladies can compete fairly against the men.

That’s not to say they still can’t have men only and lady only comps.

But why not shake it up.

Seve OB · 24-09-2020 9:35pm

prawnsambo wrote: »

Yes you can. Plenty of comps have ladies playing off different tees from men. And juniors on different tees as well. The WHS allows for even more flexibility in this regard.

Really? Society and friendly comps maybe but I doubt any qualifying comps?

I don’t think it makes sense for the same comp to be played from different tees. To many variables. I understand that handicaps can be adjusted accordingly. Yes it’s fine for the social comps.

prawnsambo · 24-09-2020 9:56pm

Seve OB wrote: »

Really? Society and friendly comps maybe but I doubt any qualifying comps?

I don’t think it makes sense for the same comp to be played from different tees. To many variables. I understand that handicaps can be adjusted accordingly. Yes it’s fine for the social comps.

Yes, really. In Golf Club official qualifying Open competitions. I played in one on Tuesday, both men and women. I came 5th, an actual woman came 4th.

OS_Head · 24-09-2020 9:57pm

Seve OB wrote: »

Really? Society and friendly comps maybe but I doubt any qualifying comps?

I don’t think it makes sense for the same comp to be played from different tees. To many variables. I understand that handicaps can be adjusted accordingly. Yes it’s fine for the social comps.

I'm not too sure there are too many variables. If you imagine how the login process will work in the future, for casual rounds anyway. You will sign into the computer and choose what tee you plan to play off. Pretty simple. With each tee having different course ratings, the computer will do all the calculations to give you your playing handicap for that day. If you choose an easier tee, you could lose as many as 4 strokes from the round. Sounds pretty fair to me.

No reason why this could not apply to comps. I get there would be some pushback from established members, but this would make it fairer for some aul fellas and complete noobs...

hurleronditch · 24-09-2020 10:13pm

OS_Head wrote: »

I'm not too sure there are too many variables. If you imagine how the login process will work in the future, for casual rounds anyway. You will sign into the computer and choose what tee you plan to play off. Pretty simple. With each tee having different course ratings, the computer will do all the calculations to give you your playing handicap for that day. If you choose an easier tee, you could lose as many as 4 strokes from the round. Sounds pretty fair to me.

No reason why this could not apply to comps. I get there would be some pushback from established members, but this would make it fairer for some aul fellas and complete noobs...

It would actually be very interesting. There might be exploitable gaps in the slope indexes, but in reality it’s going to be minimal.

A few risk items would be a fella forgetting what tee he’s off if you have a 4 ball all playing a different tee, especially on a par 3 where you might just blindly load up on the same tee box after the fella in front of you.

Maybe to start clubs could start by mandating that for medals, majors and stroke events the senior scratch lads play the blacks, the juniors play blues, intermediates the whites and the minors the yellows. Once fellas get the hang of the etiquette of teeing off, it would likely speed things up massively as the 28 handicappers aren’t trying to play stroke play off the tips with the greens quick and the rough up.

OS_Head · 24-09-2020 10:27pm

hurleronditch wrote: »

It would actually be very interesting. There might be exploitable gaps in the slope indexes, but in reality it’s going to be minimal.

A few risk items would be a fella forgetting what tee he’s off if you have a 4 ball all playing a different tee, especially on a par 3 where you might just blindly load up on the same tee box after the fella in front of you.

Maybe to start clubs could start by mandating that for medals, majors and stroke events the senior scratch lads play the blacks, the juniors play blues, intermediates the whites and the minors the yellows. Once fellas get the hang of the etiquette of teeing off, it would likely speed things up massively as the 28 handicappers aren’t trying to play stroke play off the tips with the greens quick and the rough up.

You're probably right, fellas getting mixed out on the course teeing off from the wrong tee box. Isn't there still some doing the drop from shoulder height.. still! Old habits die hard I guess.

So it's probably not gonna be a runner except for casual rounds. It might make sense to try it for medals etc.

GreeBo · 24-09-2020 11:05pm

OS_Head wrote: »

I'm not too sure there are too many variables. If you imagine how the login process will work in the future, for casual rounds anyway. You will sign into the computer and choose what tee you plan to play off. Pretty simple. With each tee having different course ratings, the computer will do all the calculations to give you your playing handicap for that day. If you choose an easier tee, you could lose as many as 4 strokes from the round. Sounds pretty fair to me.

No reason why this could not apply to comps. I get there would be some pushback from established members, but this would make it fairer for some aul fellas and complete noobs...

Biggest issue would be the chances of winning are greatly reduced for some.
Most of our ladies comps that are run on the same day as mens would have a tiny field and CSS would be worse than SSS.

It would probably really impact their handicap adjustments by flattening the curve and you could have the bizarre scenario where you have more than 36 points on your competition handicap but not on your actual handicap...or those opposite!

OS_Head · 25-09-2020 1:37am

GreeBo wrote: »

Biggest issue would be the chances of winning are greatly reduced for some.
Most of our ladies comps that are run on the same day as mens would have a tiny field and CSS would be worse than SSS.

It would probably really impact their handicap adjustments by flattening the curve and you could have the bizarre scenario where you have more than 36 points on your competition handicap but not on your actual handicap...or those opposite!

Isn't SSS being done away with in favour of Course Rating. While CSS is being replace by Course Condition Adjustment (CCA). The CCA is calculated using all scores on the day, regardless of competition or tees. It's a more conservative adjustment than CSS and goes from -1 to 3. But apparently it will mostly be 0. CCA will be applied as long as 8 or more scores are recorded by players with an handicap of 36 or less and 20 rounds played. Otherwise I presume it's set to 0, ie having no effect.

GreeBo · 25-09-2020 1:40am

OS_Head wrote: »

Isn't SSS being done away with in favour of Course Rating. While CSS is being replace by Course Condition Adjustment (CCA). The CCA is calculated using all scores on the day, regardless of competition or tees. It's a more conservative adjustment than CSS and goes from -1 to 3. But apparently it will mostly be 0. CCA will be applied as long as 8 or more scores are recorded by players with an handicap of 36 or less and 20 rounds played. Otherwise I presume it's set to 0, ie having no effect.

Yeah I'm talking in the context of current CONGU, but it will be the same issue really, just with new names

OS_Head · 25-09-2020 1:53am

GreeBo wrote: »

Yeah I'm talking in the context of current CONGU, but it will be the same issue really, just with new names

Well I guess the proof will be in the pudding. It will be unfortunate if this new system becomes lob sided for any particular group. It's been in use already in Australia, the US and many other countries. I haven't heard or looked for that matter of any big problems yet. I just hope that changing from CONGU is not a special basket case.

Russman · 25-09-2020 11:06am

I could see it getting very messy if different tees were allowed in the same competitions though.
Wouldn't it then be possible for two guys, say both off 16 but different exacts, depending on the slope, to get different playing handicaps for the same set of tees ?
I've just plugged the numbers in and someone off 16.0 plays off 16 on both our sets of tees, whereas someone off 16.1 plays off 17 from our back tees. There's not a lot of difference so it might make sense for the 16.1 guy to choose the back tees to get that extra shot in the same competition. I'm sure it would work the other way too. Just sounds a bit counter intuitive to what we've been used to to be honest.

New Worldwide Handicap System

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