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Maximus Alexander · 04-01-2016 3:53pm

Nodin wrote: »

What would you say if that bag of weed was attacking your mother, or your sister? What good would your liberal agenda do you then?

If my mother was attacking that bag of week I would hope her agenda would be to liberally share it.

drunkmonkey · 04-01-2016 3:54pm

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

The level of disrespect and outright hatred shown towards our Gardai is really mind boggling at times.

I have to assume that all those responsible, no matter how much they try to deny it, have found themselves on the wrong side of the criminal justice system and instead of accepting their own failures, try to fob off the Gardai who in the majority of case are simply doing their jobs.

Folks it's really quite simple; Treat the Gardai with respect and you will receive it. Act hostile, refuse to cooperate, become abusive or laugh in their faces and you will be treated accordingly.

And if you don't a conviction on your record or your life to be ruined of a little bit of weed....well you could try not breaking the law...drugs are iilegal, if the Gardai catch in possession there will rightly be repercussions.

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ScumLord · 04-01-2016 4:01pm

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

The level of disrespect and outright hatred shown towards our Gardai is really mind boggling at times.

I don't think people are necessarily blaming the guards, but it is one of those situations that would infuriate a taxpayer. The drug laws are more harmful than the drugs, yet we waste man hours and money fighting a lost cause. With some form of decriminalisation on the cards in Ireland it seems utterly pointless making an effort to spread erroneous propaganda. Most people aren't going to be giving guards a pat on the back for cannabis arrests. At this stage plenty of people will see it has a complete waste of time. Sure it's the law and guards have to do their job, but it's not an ideal situation and it's helping no one.

I have to assume that all those responsible, no matter how much they try to deny it, have found themselves on the wrong side of the criminal justice system and instead of accepting their own failures, try to fob off the Gardai who in the majority of case are simply doing their jobs.

I've been arrested for drugs and the guards were professional and courteous. I put my hands up and accepted my fate though.

And if you don't a conviction on your record or your life to be ruined of a little bit of weed....well you could try not breaking the law...drugs are iilegal, if the Gardai catch in possession there will rightly be repercussions.

People are always going to break drug laws. You only get one life, and you shouldn't have your freedom to experience some of life's greatest experiences because of some left over Christian puritan propaganda says so.

richy · 04-01-2016 4:14pm

ScumLord wrote: »

People are always going to break drug laws. You only get one life, and you shouldn't have your freedom to experience some of life's greatest experiences because of some left over Christian puritan propaganda says so.

This is exactly how I feel. You put it into words better than I could. You see other places like the states where people are finally free to use cannabis and they have so much option. It is regulated. You don't have to smoke it. You can get canna sweets, drinks etc. You can go to cannabis bars with your friends and actually have a social life that doesnt revolve around alcohol.

Why should other peoples ignorance of reality affect my one chance at life. Thankfully, it is changing quickly, just not quickly enough for me. I am considering leafleting for Labour this year just because I love Aodhan O Riordain so much lol. Be worth it for all the hate I will get at the door.

Muahahaha · 04-01-2016 4:34pm

Little CuChulainn wrote: »

So what is your point? Is your point that Gardaí should always enforce the law so the cancellation of fines was wrong on all counts? In which case you must also believe that ignoring cannabis users would also be wrong. Same principle applies. Or are you saying that Gardaí should ignore cannabis use? In which case you must also believe that there was no problem with them cancelling fines for people. You can only have it one way or the other.

You seem to be saying that the Gardaí use to do it for fines so why not for cannabis yet at the same time you are condemning them for doing it with fines.

Once again you're trying to put words in my mouth, which is clearly evident by your post which is full of conjecture. All I ever said was that we already know the Gardai apply the law unevenly to their friends and family as quite clearly demonstrated in the penalty points saga.

tayto lover wrote: »

Not true. I live quite near that lad. He did get time in prison. He was missing from the area for awhile, not sure how long though maybe 2 years. Just saying.

Fair enough but how was it the national media reported he got a 2 yr suspended sentence? In any case we have a law that says its a 10 year mandatory sentence for the kind of quantity of weed he was caught with. You'd want to be some naieve Gardai or Judge to believe that growing 77 plants was for personal use and not for sale or supply.

Little CuChulainn wrote: »

See this is the problem with the silence from AGS on the penalty points issue. People don't have a clue how things happened. Gardaí couldn't wipe points from anyone. Only someone of the rank of Superintendent could cancel a fine. And the vast majority of these cancellations were completely legit. The others were indeed corruption but they were in a small minority of cases.

That is of absolute zero reassurance for the families in this country who were without loved ones this Christmas because some Gardai decided that the law didn't apply equally to their friends. iirc there was one case where a guy had been caught speeding way above the limit on numerous occasions but each time he was caught he got his penalty points quashed by a Gardai mate after the event. He had so many speeding offences that he should have been off the road if all points were accumulated. But instead he was still on the road and then he went on to crash and kill someone in an accident.

It's very easy to dismiss Gardai corruption as a nothing thing but the reality is there are famiies grieving heavily for lost loved ones because of it.

ScumLord · 04-01-2016 4:42pm

richy wrote: »

This is exactly how I feel. You put it into words better than I could. You see other places like the states where people are finally free to use cannabis and they have so much option. It is regulated. You don't have to smoke it. You can get canna sweets, drinks etc. You can go to cannabis bars with your friends and actually have a social life that doesnt revolve around alcohol.

Yeah, it quickly turned into a huge industry in the states. If they legalised cannabis here I wouldn't open a coffee shop, our smoking laws wouldn't really allow the Amsterdam set up here anyway.

I'd open a restaurant. The starters would have cannabis and other than that it's just a normal restaurant. I'd probably do a deal with a taxi company to bring people to and from the restaurant to avoid any driving under the influence problems. I think I'd be onto a winner, get them stoned then give them a menu.

steddyeddy · 04-01-2016 4:43pm

I think some of the people in this thread are guilty of using strawmen. If I criticise an operation or activity that the gaurds are involved in that generally means I hate the activity and not the idea of a police force.

The Met police also had problems in the 70s and 80s. They were accused of being overly brutal with people and planting evidence. They reformed massively and now are a better force because of it. Pointing out faults in how a force operates does not equate to hating a force.

Little CuChulainn · 04-01-2016 4:45pm

richy wrote: »

30 minutes was a bit of an exaggeration. It took about 10 minutes to search my car (its messy haha). 10 minutes inside the car talking to the guard and signing the stuff. What about court time though. Surely that is quite a while.

Can be an hour or two depending on the judge. But generally all the Gardas summons go to the same date so they are there for multiple cases.

richy wrote: »

On the form filling, I always thought police were complaining about too much form filling taking too much time. Might not be an Irish police force issue though.

It's when you have to fill in forms about the forms that it gets annoying.

richy wrote: »

AFAIK, free legal aid is based on income only. Not on how many times you have been convicted.

I thought it was related to your income and whether you were in jeopardy but you could be right.

richy wrote: »

I believe you can only get the probation act once and as I have two charges I would be convicted on one no?

Yeah. Your only chance might be the drugs court.

richy wrote: »

There is a joint oireachtas commitee that was investigating it and they are recommending it. Might see it implemented when Misuse of Drugs Act is up for renewal in 2016. Depends on the government though.

I think most governments will consider it at this stage.

richy wrote: »

Can you tell me who decides what charges to bring against me. Is it the arresting guard, the sergeant or the super intendent? Or the DA?

Depends on the charge and the severity of the offence.

Muahahaha wrote: »

Once again you're trying to put words in my mouth, which is clearly evident by your post which is full of conjecture. All I ever said was that we already know the Gardai apply the law unevenly to their friends and family as quite clearly demonstrated in the penalty points saga.

What is your point in relation to this topic though?

Muahahaha wrote: »

That is of absolute zero reassurance for the families in this country who were without loved ones this Christmas because some Gardai decided that the law didn't apply equally to their friends. iirc there was one case where a guy had been caught speeding way above the limit on numerous occasions but each time he was caught he got his penalty points quashed by a Gardai mate after the event. He had so many speeding offences that he should have been off the road if all points were accumulated. But instead he was still on the road and then he went on to crash and kill someone in an accident.

It's very easy to dismiss Gardai corruption as a nothing thing but the reality is there are famiies grieving heavily for lost loved ones because of it.

I didn't dismiss anything. I said it wasn't nearly as widespread as was reported.

tayto lover · 04-01-2016 4:47pm

"Fair enough but how was it the national media reported he got a 2 yr suspended sentence? In any case we have a law that says its a 10 year mandatory sentence for the kind of quantity of weed he was caught with. You'd want to be some naieve Gardai or Judge to believe that growing 77 plants was for personal use and not for sale or supply." Muahahaha

I don't know how the case worked out or how long he got. He is a bit of a clown it seems. Some people felt sorry for him.
He was missing from the area for a good while.
I know a man who visited him twice while he was in prison. That's about it.

Little CuChulainn · 04-01-2016 4:49pm

steddyeddy wrote: »

I think some of the people in this thread are guilty of using strawmen. If I criticise an operation or activity that the gaurds are involved in that generally means I hate the activity and not the idea of a police force.

The Met police also had problems in the 70s and 80s. They were accused of being overly brutal with people and planting evidence. They reformed massively and now are a better force because of it. Pointing out faults in how a force operates does not equate to hating a force.

But we aren't talking about Garda reform, we're talking about legislative reform being forced by AGS by means of ignoring a law on an organisational scale. If we were talking about a civil rights issue I could get on board but we have a democratically elected government and the police force should not be able to pressure them into legislative changes.

richy · 04-01-2016 5:00pm

ScumLord wrote: »

Yeah, it quickly turned into a huge industry in the states. If they legalised cannabis here I wouldn't open a coffee shop, our smoking laws wouldn't really allow the Amsterdam set up here anyway.

I'd open a restaurant. The starters would have cannabis and other than that it's just a normal restaurant. I'd probably do a deal with a taxi company to bring people to and from the restaurant to avoid any driving under the influence problems. I think I'd be onto a winner, get them stoned then give them a menu.

You are on to a good one there haha. I could see outside smoking areas like pubs have and indoor vaping. Neither would break the law I dont think.

Little CuChulainn wrote: »

Can be an hour or two depending on the judge. But generally all the Gardas summons go to the same date so they are there for multiple cases.

It's when you have to fill in forms about the forms that it gets annoying.

I thought it was related to your income and whether you were in jeopardy but you could be right.

Yeah. Your only chance might be the drugs court.

I think most governments will consider it at this stage.

Depends on the charge and the severity of the offence.

What is your point in relation to this topic though?

I didn't dismiss anything. I said it wasn't nearly as widespread as was reported.

Well in my case with just possession and the other charge. Looking back I think he said on the phone that the superintedent decided to charge me with possession and not supply, which he had threatened.

Are more serious charges up to the Garda and less serious up to the super?

What is a drugs court? Never heard of it before

EDIT: Just googled it. Appears to be a Dublin only thing from what I can see.

BattleCorp · 04-01-2016 5:11pm

richy wrote: »

You are on to a good one there haha. I could see outside smoking areas like pubs have and indoor vaping. Neither would break the law I dont think.

I'd say within a year or two, vaping will be considered the same as smoking. It will be banned wherever smoking is banned.

richy · 04-01-2016 5:18pm

BattleCorp wrote: »

I'd say within a year or two, vaping will be considered the same as smoking. It will be banned wherever smoking is banned.

Vaping cannabis is different. There is no big puff of smoke like vaporisers. Its just steam almost. Can even barely see it.

magentis · 04-01-2016 5:20pm

Its laughable to read people talking about respect for ags here.When you walk into a station to get forms signed and are greeted with pure ignorance,its hard to respect them.It's a two way street.If they treat the general public with utter contempt in situations like that,why should they be respected?

Maximus Alexander · 04-01-2016 5:22pm

magentis wrote: »

Its laughable to read people talking about respect for ags here.When you walk into a station to get forms signed and are greeted with pure ignorance,its hard to respect them.It's a two way street.If they treat the general public with utter contempt in situations like that,why should they be respected?

That hasn't been my experience. They've generally been pretty friendly or, at worst, neutral.

smash · 04-01-2016 5:22pm

I'm waiting for the update that after 60+ hours of Gardai resources have been used on this bag of weed, the 'criminal' will get out of a conviction when he gives €100 to the courtroom charity box.

Sonics2k · 04-01-2016 5:25pm

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

The level of disrespect and outright hatred shown towards our Gardai is really mind boggling at times.

I have to assume that all those responsible, no matter how much they try to deny it, have found themselves on the wrong side of the criminal justice system and instead of accepting their own failures, try to fob off the Gardai who in the majority of case are simply doing their jobs.

Folks it's really quite simple; Treat the Gardai with respect and you will receive it. Act hostile, refuse to cooperate, become abusive or laugh in their faces and you will be treated accordingly.

And if you don't a conviction on your record or your life to be ruined of a little bit of weed....well you could try not breaking the law...drugs are iilegal, if the Gardai catch in possession there will rightly be repercussions.

Nonsense.
I've never been on the wrong side of the criminal justice system, I have a completely clean record.

My issues with the Gardai relate to the glaring hypocrisy, obvious bribery and corruption, the fact they are nothing more than a security service for Govt members, and have such little interest in protecting the community compared to actually doing their jobs.

Yes, I know there are many many Garda out there who do want to do good things, but sadly so so many more are glaring useless drains on taxpayer money.

Countless occasions I've seen them driving cars and on the phone, hell, just last November I saw one stopped at a red light in Cork, as I pulled up next to him I saw his window was down and he was ordering a pizza for delivery.
The numerous times in the early morning traffic with junctions packed up, full of cars simply stopping in the yellow grid and ignoring the red light, as a Garda stands at the corner of the Elysian Hotel, checking her damn phone. I stood and watched this particular Garda for about 5 minutes and not once did she even glance at the disaster of traffic right in front of her.

My one time have any kind of real negative interaction was when a Garda threatened to arrest me for recording a group of Gardai pushing around a young lad outside a bar (An Bróg) in Cork, who was not drunk, not causing a fight, or any trouble that I saw before they came along.
I remember the incident, and even reported it along with the 5 other people I was with and nothing was done because I see the same Garda walking around town now.

Muahahaha · 04-01-2016 5:29pm

Little CuChulainn wrote: »

What is your point in relation to this topic though

It's the same as the point I replied to you yesterday with:-

Muahahaha wrote: »

As for this case I've no problems with the Gardai doing their job and confiscating the weed. But posting it up on their Facebook page isn't a very smart PR move and as can be seen from the 5000 odd comments, they've gone and made a laughing stock of themselves.

The Gardai rely on the wider community to help them police. Putting up pictures on Facebook shouting 'hey look what we've got!' does nothing to help their cause. Its like a less extreme version of what the Thai police do where 6 cops stand around a suspect literally pointing their long finger at him for a photo that gets published in the media the next day.

This isn't the first time that the Gardai behind the social media accounts have cocked up either- only a few months ago they posted up a badly crashed car and asked people!e if they thought it was a male or female driver who crashed it. Most people's reaction to a crashed car is they hope the person isn't injured but the Gardai behind the social media account thought it funny to make innuendo on the gender of the driver. It's just simply!y not smart PR and whoever is operating the account should receive better training. All that said their use of social media in general is to be commended as it can be useful for avoiding traffic accidents, etc. But on this occasion with the weed I feel it's been counter productive.

Little CuChulainn · 04-01-2016 5:42pm

Muahahaha wrote: »

It's the same as the point I replied to you yesterday with:-

The Gardai rely on the wider community to help them police. Putting up pictures on Facebook shouting 'hey look what we've got!' does nothing to help their cause. Its like a less extreme version of what the Thai police do where 6 cops stand around a suspect literally pointing their long finger at him for a photo that gets published in the media the next day.

This isn't the first time that the Gardai behind the social media accounts have cocked up either- only a few months ago they posted up a badly crashed car and asked people!e if they thought it was a male or female driver who crashed it. Most people's reaction to a crashed car is they hope the person isn't injured but the Gardai behind the social media account thought it funny to make innuendo on the gender of the driver. It's just simply!y not smart PR and whoever is operating the account should receive better training. All that said their use of social media in general is to be commended as it can be useful for avoiding traffic accidents, etc. But on this occasion with the weed I feel it's been counter productive.

On that I agree. Most of the stuff the press office does is useless.

Cienciano · 04-01-2016 5:48pm

Little CuChulainn wrote: »

We'll have to agree to disagree on that. Gardaí decide wether to prosecute individuals, not wether to ignore a particular law altogether. But this seems to be just a tandem argument you've attached on to your main argument which is the popularity of the law.

You're wrong here. Examples: Go past a gardai speed trap about 3 or 4 kph over the legal limit and see if you're pulled in. Go through a gardai checkpoint with your tax or ncd out of date by a couple of days.
I drive a motorcycle and I'm not legally allowed ride in active buslanes. I've driven past about 50 or 100 bus lane checkpoint in the last 10 years in full view of the garda, never pulled in. They don't enforce every law. Do you know anyone who was charged with crossing a road within 50 feet of a pedestrian crossing when the light was still red?
There's loads of laws that gardai choose not to enforce.

Nodin · 04-01-2016 6:00pm

richy wrote: »

Vaping cannabis is different. There is no big puff of smoke like vaporisers. Its just steam almost. Can even barely see it.

Allegedly, yes.

Nodin · 04-01-2016 6:02pm

Little CuChulainn wrote: »

We'll have to agree to disagree on that. Gardaí decide wether to prosecute individuals, not wether to ignore a particular law altogether. But lets say they do agree to ignore certain laws. Do you think this would be right?
.

In the case where the law plainly is an ass, yes.

tayto lover · 04-01-2016 6:17pm

richy wrote: »

Vaping cannabis is different. There is no big puff of smoke like vaporisers. Its just steam almost. Can even barely see it.

Jaysus i'm learning a lot in here. If i ever take to the cannabis i'll know how to use it at least but at my age it's unlikely i will.
Think i'll stick to the few pints of Guinness.

ScumLord · 04-01-2016 6:20pm

tayto lover wrote: »

Jaysus i'm learning a lot in here. If i ever take to the cannabis i'll know how to use it at least but at my age it's unlikely i will.
Think i'll stick to the few pints of Guinness.

Head over to Amsterdam, I think you can now head to parts of Spain too, or over to the states. It's worth a try once in your life.

EazyD · 04-01-2016 6:23pm

tayto lover wrote: »

Jaysus i'm learning a lot in here. If i ever take to the cannabis i'll know how to use it at least but at my age it's unlikely i will.
Think i'll stick to the few pints of Guinness.

Fun fact for you. Company in Carlow called Iolite make them.

Muahahaha · 04-01-2016 6:30pm

Cienciano wrote: »

You're wrong here. Examples: Go past a gardai speed trap about 3 or 4 kph over the legal limit and see if you're pulled in. Go through a gardai checkpoint with your tax or ncd out of date by a couple of days.
I drive a motorcycle and I'm not legally allowed ride in active buslanes. I've driven past about 50 or 100 bus lane checkpoint in the last 10 years in full view of the garda, never pulled in. They don't enforce every law. Do you know anyone who was charged with crossing a road within 50 feet of a pedestrian crossing when the light was still red?
There's loads of laws that gardai choose not to enforce.

In fairness to the Gardai this is where discretion is important. Being 3 or 4kph above the limit is not prosecuted because its obviously a genuine mistake. As for using bus lanes on a motorbike I do the exact same myself and asked two Gardai about it, both said that in their view motorcyclists are safer in the bus lane and they wouldnt do them unless they are undertaking at dangerous speeds. So when I use them I do so at a reasonable speed relative to the cars speed in the lane next to me. I see some bikers leathering up them at speed and if a car suddenly decides to move into the bus lane without checking their wing mirror then the biker is in real trouble. If a Garda saw someone going too fast in the bus lane then they likely would stop them because its for their own good.

You are correct in your point that there are some laws the Gardai don't enforce. But as far as weed goes that specific issue stems into much wider issues of public policy and public health, which are matters for the Dail and not the Gardai.

FTA69 · 04-01-2016 6:31pm

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

The level of disrespect and outright hatred shown towards our Gardai is really mind boggling at times.

I have to assume that all those responsible, no matter how much they try to deny it, have found themselves on the wrong side of the criminal justice system and instead of accepting their own failures, try to fob off the Gardai who in the majority of case are simply doing their jobs.

Folks it's really quite simple; Treat the Gardai with respect and you will receive it. Act hostile, refuse to cooperate, become abusive or laugh in their faces and you will be treated accordingly.

And if you don't a conviction on your record or your life to be ruined of a little bit of weed....well you could try not breaking the law...drugs are iilegal, if the Gardai catch in possession there will rightly be repercussions.

The slavish Irish attitude toward anything resembling authority manifests itself once again.

darkpagandeath · 04-01-2016 6:43pm

BattleCorp wrote: »

I'd say within a year or two, vaping will be considered the same as smoking. It will be banned wherever smoking is banned.

No it will not, This is the crux of the problem people with either agendas or no clue saying it's just like smoking... It is not smoking, Is wearing a nicotine patch smoking ? Is chewing nicotine gum smoking ?? Is vaping none nicotine juice smoking ???

richy · 04-01-2016 6:46pm

Barcelona has cannabis clubs. Need to join a day before purchasing. Much cheaper than in Amsterdam. Then you have Amsterdam of course. Most of europe is either decriminalised or tolerated. Portugal and Czech have full decriminalisation. Can grow a plant in a couple places too ie Switzerland.

In the states like half of them are medical. 3 states are fully legal I think. Colorado, Washington State and Alaska maybe? Also the district of Washington DC is fully legal. Uruguay also has state supplied cannabis.

This might surprise some of you but a couple countries give heroin to addicts. And it works very very well. Holland has been doing it for decades. Switzerland and parts of Oz too.

In Holland, most of the addicts come in and get their dose, go off to work, come back after work and get their second dose and off home. Highly functioning addicts. Didnt believe it when I first heard it. Dr Carl Hart is where I first heard it.

Muahahaha · 04-01-2016 6:49pm

The NHS in the UK are promoting vaping over smoking for those people who struggle to give up nicotine. When vaping first became big they were on about banning it but common sense has now prevailed. I'd expect similar to happen here, no way could I see them banning something which has helped a lot of smokers avoid getting respiratory diseases from smoking cigarettes.

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