Water charges for excessive usage

PommieBast · 20-01-2021 1:36pm

If water charges are to ever rear its ugly head again it will come in the form of a fixed levy. At the time it was metering itself rather than the idea of a resource-specific charge that I objected to.

charlie14 · 20-01-2021 2:18pm

Yellow_Fern wrote: »

If you live in Inis Mean you probably can ignore mandatory pub closing times. That doesnt mean mandatory pub closing times can't be enforced elsewhere.

What I dont understand is why so many brand new estates dont seem to have water meters

Due to the law of diminishing returns perhaps. Or in this case no returns whatsoever.

We already have 750,000 of them buried, nearing or past their lifespan, at enormous expense to the taxpayer that have not returned a red cent.
Water charges are gone so no economic sense too adding insult to injury by burying any more of them.

K.Flyer · 20-01-2021 2:29pm

Joe Kane wrote: »

I work out on the ground for an IW contractor and I'm installing meters / locating & repairing leaks every day. If you want a new meter installed you will get it.

My understanding from the last time I spoke with IW is that they do not install individual private water meters for people living in apartments.
The actual response was "...Irish Water have no plans to install individual water meters in private apartments for the foreseeable future".
So, no you can't just get one if you ask for one.

NovemberWren · 21-01-2021 1:28am

Benedict wrote: »

That's the point - they have no way of knowing what non-metered houses are using. And if they had a way of knowing, why would they have installed meters in the first place?

Do they have a way of knowing? Have they said this? Is there a way of knowing?

jimmycrackcorm · 21-01-2021 1:53am

PommieBast wrote: »

If water charges are to ever rear its ugly head again it will come in the form of a fixed levy. At the time it was metering itself rather than the idea of a resource-specific charge that I objected to.

If they are to ever rear their head then it should be a flat tax included as an increase of the existing property tax. Then if you have or get a water meter and show you are not wasting water, you can get a rebate.

As for the "we already pay for water crowd", well we already paid income tax before USC was introduced, so where were the people who were out blocking the water installers, when that happened? Or is it too obvious that they had time to do that because USC wasn't something affecting them given they had the free time to do it?

charlie14 · 21-01-2021 2:39am

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

If they are to ever rear their head then it should be a flat tax included as an increase of the existing property tax. Then if you have or get a water meter and show you are not wasting water, you can get a rebate.

As for the "we already pay for water crowd", well we already paid income tax before USC was introduced, so where were the people who were out blocking the water installers, when that happened? Or is it too obvious that they had time to do that because USC wasn't something affecting them given they had the free time to do it?

Makes you wonder why so much taxpayers money was wasted on a political ideology when the existing property tax could have been used.
No hope of privatisation perhaps

McMurphy · 21-01-2021 8:27am

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

If they are to ever rear their head then it should be a flat tax included as an increase of the existing property tax. Then if you have or get a water meter and show you are not wasting water, you can get a rebate.

As for the "we already pay for water crowd", well we already paid income tax before USC was introduced, so where were the people who were out blocking the water installers, when that happened? Or is it too obvious that they had time to do that because USC wasn't something affecting them given they had the free time to do it?

So FG wasted billions of taxpayers money, and damaged Gardai - community relations in many areas of the country, not to mention squandered a chance to introduce some form of metered water charges for at least a generation.....

When all they had to do really, was tack a standing charge on to lpt, income tax etc etc all along, allow revenue to collect it, and overnight get almost 100% compliance**, without the protests, the waste of money in meters that were never used, the damaged community - Gardai relationship in some communities, not to mention the case were a TD and members of the electorate were almost framed in court with lies that never happened?

Your post signifies all that was wrong with Irish water and how they tried to introduce water charges, and you don't even realise it.

**How would you privatise something revenue are in charge of though?

Yellow_Fern · 21-01-2021 8:33am

charlie14 wrote: »

Due to the law of diminishing returns perhaps. Or in this case no returns whatsoever.

We already have 750,000 of them buried, nearing or past their lifespan, at enormous expense to the taxpayer that have not returned a red cent.
Water charges are gone so no economic sense too adding insult to injury by burying any more of them.

I check mine forthnightly. I use it for conserving my use and finding leaks. I am delighted that I have it.

21-01-2021 10:00am

charlie14 wrote: »

Due to the law of diminishing returns perhaps. Or in this case no returns whatsoever.
We already have 750,000 of them buried, nearing or past their lifespan, at enormous expense to the taxpayer that have not returned a red cent.
Water charges are gone so no economic sense too adding insult to injury by burying any more of them.

Tell me, Charlie, do you scrap a fairly new car just because the battery needs replacing?

charlie14 · 21-01-2021 2:16pm

Yellow_Fern wrote: »

I check mine forthnightly. I use it for conserving my use and finding leaks. I am delighted that I have it.

Which do you believe is the most cost effective.
A. Spending billions to provide every household with a meter to check for individual leaks.
B. Spending the same amount to fix mains that are leaking 50% of treated water.

charlie14 · 21-01-2021 2:23pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Tell me, Charlie, do you scrap a fairly new car just because the battery needs replacing?

If that car had done nothing in all the time I had it Mary, and was not going to do anything until it fell apart, why would I spend more money on it putting a new battery in it ?

K.Flyer · 21-01-2021 7:57pm

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

If they are to ever rear their head then it should be a flat tax included as an increase of the existing property tax. Then if you have or get a water meter and show you are not wasting water, you can get a rebate. [..]

It is convoluted ideas like that which got IW into the mess it created.
Back in 1993 / 94 the government of the day tried to introduce a flat rate water charge, approx 100 euro in new money, and without the aid of modern day social media they were then met with strong resistance and people saying that they would refuse to pay and the government dropped it.
Water charges mk.II failed even more miserably that the first idea.
I personally would pay water charges as long as it is metered and so is every other single property that consumes water. But that won't happen too soon as they have clearly stated that not all properties will be metered.
So until then, they can carry on as the sham organisation that they are, but they won't see a red cent from me until the system is fair and fully metered.

NovemberWren · 21-01-2021 10:06pm

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

If they are to ever rear their head then it should be a flat tax included as an increase of the existing property tax. Then if you have or get a water meter and show you are not wasting water, you can get a rebate.

I think most people would not mind paying for water, if it was a flat tax.

But the entire installation of meters was nothing short of a fiasco, that seems to have ended, for the present, with almost vast amounts of housing that were not metered.

There was trepidation about it all though, as these smart-meters that indicate and can broadcast usage was alien to people; and this may have been an factor of the reluctance of people. Not all of the smart-meters have sensors in them; but even if all meters and meters with sensors were taken out; it still is possible to put Sensors on the pipes themselves, these may pick-up any actual house, vicinity, and volume.
And when these Sensors, that can be easily put onto the underground pipes, are aligned, and do transmit to the Private Security Guard computers, not just water is videod, but Personal Emissions also. And a great many of these Security Guards are locals and who are only extremely willing for their pals, political cronies, or their own interest, preferred area, or possible house interest; to hunt and target any one Household.

Meters are spoken of a great deal, but more it would be the Actual Sensors that transmit to the Private Security Guard' 'talk-to-each-other' computers (and guards) that needs to be addressed.

charlie14 · 22-01-2021 12:39am

Nurse!

PommieBast · 22-01-2021 1:13am

NovemberWren wrote: »

I think most people would not mind paying for water, if it was a flat tax.

For a lot of people (me included) it was a flat tax, but that did not make any difference. Though to be fair among the people I knew personally it seemed to be a reaction to yet another tax rise, rather than any hatred of water charges themselves.

K.Flyer · 22-01-2021 2:49pm

PommieBast wrote: »

For a lot of people (me included) it was a flat tax, but that did not make any difference. Though to be fair among the people I knew personally it seemed to be a reaction to yet another tax rise, rather than any hatred of water charges themselves.

I wish people and Irish Water would look at this like other utilities like Gas or Electricity. Any house or property that uses Gas or Electricity from a supplier has a meter, No Exceptions, you pay for your usage it is metered and charged for accordingly.
Now, imagine for a moment a scenario where not everyone has a gas or electric meter and you are told that those with meters will be paying according to their meters, but those without will have a nominal flat fee and can use whatever gas and electricity they like. Would that be fair, no it wouldn't.
But instead of doing it right IW came up the the most awful convoluted bol!oxology for trying to charge people, nevermind the financial bribe.
It was shambles from beginning to end and still is.
The legacy of I.W. will forever rank up there with the electronic voting machines, children's hospital costs and whatever else you feel like adding to that list.
And who in I.W. got a slap on the wrist for royally fcuking it up... That's right, Nobody as usual.

PommieBast · 22-01-2021 3:59pm

K.Flyer wrote: »

But instead of doing it right IW came up the the most awful convoluted bol!oxology for trying to charge people, nevermind the financial bribe.
It was shambles from beginning to end and still is.

From reading up on Irish history water charging has been a screw-up ever since Jack Lynch abolished it alongside various other local charges in the late-1970s. When I saw the protests back in 2014 I just assumed it was a bunch of communists who were throwing toys out of the pram because they wanted everything to be free, but that was before I knew the background.

charlie14 · 22-01-2021 4:08pm

K.Flyer wrote: »

I wish people and Irish Water would look at this like other utilities like Gas or Electricity. Any house or property that uses Gas or Electricity from a supplier has a meter, No Exceptions, you pay for your usage it is metered and charged for accordingly.
Now, imagine for a moment a scenario where not everyone has a gas or electric meter and you are told that those with meters will be paying according to their meters, but those without will have a nominal flat fee and can use whatever gas and electricity they like. Would that be fair, no it wouldn't.
But instead of doing it right IW came up the the most awful convoluted bol!oxology for trying to charge people, nevermind the financial bribe.
It was shambles from beginning to end and still is.
The legacy of I.W. will forever rank up there with the electronic voting machines, children's hospital costs and whatever else you feel like adding to that list.
And who in I.W. got a slap on the wrist for royally fcuking it up... That's right, Nobody as usual.

Personally I regard IW as a waste of space, time and money but when you reward the minister in charge of the mess with a plum job in Europe, you are guaranteeing anyone further down the line of responsibility can act with impunity.

Benedict · 23-01-2021 11:22am

The strategy was to frighten the life out of the public so that people would pay our of fear that they would be cut off if they didn't. Then someone said "Hang on, cutting people off is illegal". And that's when the plan began to crumble because people paused - and once the public paused, IW had lost the battle. They tried to counter-punch by saying "Okay, but we'll reduce you to a trickle if you don't pay". But IW was already on the ropes and fighting a losing battle. People were starting to ask questions and that's the one thing a snake-oil salesman doesn't want you to do.

The fight was lost. After that body-blow, IW were on the canvas while the ref was counting 8...9... 10 out!

jimmycrackcorm · 25-01-2021 3:57am

charlie14 wrote:

Personally I regard IW as a waste of space, time and money but when you reward the minister in charge of the mess with a plum job in Europe, you are guaranteeing anyone further down the line of responsibility can act with impunity.

Why should IW be treated any different than the ESB? They both maintain national infrastructure that supplies consumed and necessary to every property?

K.Flyer · 25-01-2021 10:57am

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

Why should IW be treated any different than the ESB? They both maintain national infrastructure that supplies consumed and necessary to every property?

Seriously?
Irish water were a shambles from the beginning, from their convoluted efforts to bill people to their PR.
Every property that uses electricity and is connected to the grid has a meter and charged for usage.
They only require one name to be responsible for that bill, not how many are in the house, the pps numbers of each occupant etc, and only so many properties will be metered the rest to be a flat fee and use what they like.
It's not as if we had no water or discussions about charges before IW. If there was a wrong way to go about setting it up IW ticked every box.

Benedict · 25-01-2021 12:04pm

K.Flyer wrote: »

Seriously?
Irish water were a shambles from the beginning, from their convoluted efforts to bill people to their PR.
Every property that uses electricity and is connected to the grid has a meter and charged for usage.
They only require one name to be responsible for that bill, not how many are in the house, the pps numbers of each occupant etc, and only so many properties will be metered the rest to be a flat fee and use what they like.
It's not as if we had no water or discussions about charges before IW. If there was a wrong way to go about setting it up IW ticked every box.

Yes, but if there was a rule that people without meters paid a flat fee and those with meters paid according to usage, then those without a meter could argue that they only use a small amount so if they had a meter, they would pay less. This again would be unfair to those who want a meter but cannot get one. Those who use massive amounts would be happy - but not those who use very little.

Remember that only slightly more than half the homes in Ireland have meters.

charlie14 · 25-01-2021 6:08pm

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

Why should IW be treated any different than the ESB? They both maintain national infrastructure that supplies consumed and necessary to every property?

When did paying for electricity change from general taxation to metering

K.Flyer · 25-01-2021 6:30pm

Benedict wrote: »

Yes, but if there was a rule that people without meters paid a flat fee and those with meters paid according to usage, then those without a meter could argue that they only use a small amount so if they had a meter, they would pay less. This again would be unfair to those who want a meter but cannot get one. Those who use massive amounts would be happy - but not those who use very little.

Remember that only slightly more than half the homes in Ireland have meters.

Which proves that the manner in which Irish Water went about attempting to charge for water, flip flopping from one idea to another, metering some but no plans ever to meter others (apartments), was farcical from the outset.

Benedict · 27-01-2021 12:04pm

If they introduce a flat fee they cannot link it to whether or not you have a meter. If they did, other problems of unfairness could arise.

The fact is that any future fee-charging system must completely ignore the meters.

The next question is what happens when the meters begin to need maintenance work. Will it be better to simply remove them one by one as problems occur and sell them for scrap?

Why spend more money servicing meters which will never be used?

And could it happen that a malfunctioning meter could cause water-flow problems for the associated home-owner?

charlie14 · 12-05-2021 12:07pm

Anybody hoping for the return of water charges hear the reply by an Taoiseach yesterday when asked about it ?

branie2 · 12-05-2021 4:54pm

Not me

charlie14 · 12-05-2021 5:00pm

branie2 wrote: »

Not me

Short version of a short answer. Not happening.

_Kaiser_ · 12-05-2021 5:17pm

charlie14 wrote: »

Short version of a short answer. Not happening.

Even Micheal knows he has enough on his plate with the anger over the housing situation, and the other issues that haven't gone away and are re-emerging with the receding of the Covid issue, that to poke the public further by having another go at water charges would be political suicide.

charlie14 · 12-05-2021 8:15pm

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

Even Micheal knows he has enough on his plate with the anger over the housing situation, and the other issues that haven't gone away and are re-emerging with the receding of the Covid issue, that to poke the public further by having another go at water charges would be political suicide.

I believe even Fine Gael know it at this stage. Michael Noonan called it correctly in 2016 when he compared water charges electorally to a dead cat on a pitch

Yellow_Fern · 12-05-2021 11:19pm

Does any one here have experience dealing with the new Water.ie service. I have an old terrace shop front with a very convoluted water supply and Id love a meter installed. Are they straightforward to deal with?

Water charges for excessive usage

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