Ulster Team Talk Thread III: Les Miserables SEE MOD WARNING POST #1924 + #2755

Paul Smeenus · 03-01-2018 7:47pm

bilston wrote: »

$ausage$ wrote: »

taken from wikipedia but interesting to see.

So the current regime is the 2nd best we've had in the professional era...and that's despite all the injuries and unavailable young gentlemen...

Look I've been up and down with Kiss. After the Connacht game I wanted him gone. At half time the other night I would have paid for his flight back to Australia myself, but in the cold light of day I'd still be inclined to let him see the season out (which is what is going to happen anyway) and take stock then.

Of course it's going to hard for him (or anyone) without an out half for the final 40% of the season...

Let's wait until the end of the season until we know our final win percentage before declaring it the best of anything. We've got to play Leinster away, Scarlets away, Edinburgh. The point is we've had an easy opening half of the season.

bilston · 03-01-2018 7:52pm

Paul Smeenus wrote: »

bilston wrote: »

$ausage$ wrote: »

taken from wikipedia but interesting to see.

So the current regime is the 2nd best we've had in the professional era...and that's despite all the injuries and unavailable young gentlemen...

Look I've been up and down with Kiss. After the Connacht game I wanted him gone. At half time the other night I would have paid for his flight back to Australia myself, but in the cold light of day I'd still be inclined to let him see the season out (which is what is going to happen anyway) and take stock then.

Of course it's going to hard for him (or anyone) without an out half for the final 40% of the season...

Let's wait until the end of the season until we know our final win percentage before declaring it the best of anything. We've got to play Leinster away, Scarlets away, Edinburgh. The point is we've had an easy opening half of the season.

I realise that, but waiting until the end of the season works both ways. If we still have a similar win rate at the end of the season will people be prepared to give Kiss a chance? Or has his ship sailed no matter what?

mfceiling · 03-01-2018 8:03pm

$ausage$ wrote: »

For me its shocking Cowboys stats are so good. I really don't remember him being that good.

I do. I thought he brought a fair bit to the table when he was there. We played some very good rugby under his watch but then again we did have a decent pack and the backs seemed to click.

At the minute we seem to play well at times and other times the players seem to not give 2 shiny shìts. Against connacht I noticed Henderson ambling back to try and stop a maul and he really did seem half hearted in his attempt to stop it. He's not the only one mind.

Paul Smeenus · 03-01-2018 8:04pm

As far as I'm concerned,he could 100% stay on if we have the same win percentage. We won't.

As far as I'm concerned, getting some young fellas blooded this season is as much as we can ask for. Get Matty Dalton some games, and Jones and Hall. Maybe O'Hagan. Give Cairns more game time.

Paul Smeenus · 03-01-2018 8:08pm

mfceiling wrote: »

$ausage$ wrote: »

For me its shocking Cowboys stats are so good. I really don't remember him being that good.

I do. I thought he brought a fair bit to the table when he was there. We played some very good rugby under his watch but then again we did have a decent pack and the backs seemed to click.

At the minute we seem to play well at times and other times the players seem to not give 2 shiny shìts. Against connacht I noticed Henderson ambling back to try and stop a maul and he really did seem half hearted in his attempt to stop it. He's not the only one mind.

Also, there was a sense of determination and togetherness the season Spence died - I suspect that played a larger part than Anscomb's coaching.

mfceiling · 03-01-2018 8:40pm

Paul Smeenus wrote: »

Also, there was a sense of determination and togetherness the season Spence died - I suspect that played a larger part than Anscomb's coaching.

That is true enough to be fair.

jacothelad · 03-01-2018 8:42pm

Former Former wrote: »

It was reported that 'player power' was behind it.

The guy left just a couple of months after getting an extension and he is still very, very bitter about the way things went.

It wasn't player power at all, rather it was an issue with his management style and his 'treatment' of some players while socialising exuberantly with others. Many of the more party orientated guys loved him. I thought he was a good coach and suspect that the Holy Roller Mafia in the 'Management Committee' may have been behind it. They may not have enjoyed his stress relieving visits to Cutters Wharf. Utterly inept, antiquated, stupid, freeloading twozzers to a man. They are the unpleasant scrotes who sacked Matt Williams by 'phone when he was in Singapore Airport on his way to Oz for Christmas. That is no way to do business.

I would be happy for Kiss to stay if it suddenly looked like the usually high standard of Ulster's defence was restored. At the moment it has all the tensile strength of a piece of wet bog roll. . What in the name of Dog is he at? The guys look like they would have difficulty tackling a runaway tortoise undergoing a prostate exam from a 9 fingered leper.

It is also clear that when a fully fit squad is available it is an effective unit with some really high quality players. See the game v. Scarlets. The team that night on the 5th anniversary of the deaths of the Spence men.
(15 - 9) Louis Ludik; Andrew Trimble, Luke Marshall, Stuart McCloskey, Jacob Stockdale; Christian Lealiifano, John Cooney
(1 - 8) Kyle McCall, Rob Herring, Wiehahn Herbst, Kieran Treadwell, Alan O'Connor, Matthew Rea, Chris Henry (c), Sean Reidy
Replacements (16 - 23) John Andrew, Andrew Warwick, Rodney Ah You, Robbie Diack, Clive Ross, Paul Marshall, Peter Nelson, Tommy Bowe. Scarlets were fortunate to get anywhere near 20 points. Ulster didn't have Piutau, Payne, Best, Henderson that night but still looked good.

A pack chosen from Best, Henderson, Herbst, Treadwell, O'Connor, Reidy, Henry, Timoney should be far more capable of front foot play. Next season we can add in Coetzee (maybe), Moore and J.M.

Kiss has had to cope not only with the loss of Coetzee, Payne, Jackson, Olding but other players for most of the season. Best has only 3 appearances for example. V.D. Merwe also. Luke Marshall and others have missed half of all games. Sadly even when most are fit they can often end up not being selected or playing out of position and herein lies one of Les's main flaws. It seems he would have difficulty not just picking his nose but actually selecting it on his left foot.

One upside of the catastrophic injury list is that we have seen how good some of the young guys might actually be. Kiss isn't unpopular because of Ulster losing games, it is because of the decline in how the team is playing. We can see the writing on the wall if it doesn't turn around. Still, he can't suddenly magic up replacement players for the likes of Payne or Bowe, Trimble, Henry who are on the slide. He certainly can't turn over a stone and dig up cover for the 'Two Young gentlemen.'

bilston · 03-01-2018 8:51pm

jacothelad wrote: »

Former Former wrote: »

It was reported that 'player power' was behind it.

The guy left just a couple of months after getting an extension and he is still very, very bitter about the way things went.

It wasn't player power at all, rather it was an issue with his management style and his 'treatment' of some players while socialising exuberantly with others. Many of the more party orientated guys loved him. I thought he was a good coach and suspect that the Holy Roller Mafia in the 'Management Committee' may have been behind it. They may not have enjoyed his stress relieving visits to Cutters Wharf. Utterly inept, antiquated, stupid, freeloading twozzers to a man. They are the unpleasant scrotes who sacked Matt Williams by 'phone when he was in Singapore Airport on his way to Oz for Christmas. That is no way to do business.

I would be happy for Kiss to stay if it suddenly looked like the usually high standard of Ulster's defence was restored. At the moment it has all the tensile strength of a piece of wet bog roll. . What in the name of Dog is he at? The guys look like they would have difficulty tackling a runaway tortoise undergoing a prostate exam from a 9 fingered leper.

It is also clear that when a fully fit squad is available it is an effective unit with some really high quality players. See the game v. Scarlets. The team that night on the 5th anniversary of the deaths of the Spence men.
(15 - 9) Louis Ludik; Andrew Trimble, Luke Marshall, Stuart McCloskey, Jacob Stockdale; Christian Lealiifano, John Cooney
(1 - 8) Kyle McCall, Rob Herring, Wiehahn Herbst, Kieran Treadwell, Alan O'Connor, Matthew Rea, Chris Henry (c), Sean Reidy
Replacements (16 - 23) John Andrew, Andrew Warwick, Rodney Ah You, Robbie Diack, Clive Ross, Paul Marshall, Peter Nelson, Tommy Bowe. Scarlets were fortunate to get anywhere near 20 points. Ulster didn't have Piutau, Payne, Best, Henderson that night but still looked good.

A pack chosen from Best, Henderson, Herbst, Treadwell, O'Connor, Reidy, Henry, Timoney should be far more capable of front foot play. Next season we can add in Coetzee (maybe), Moore and J.M.

Kiss has had to cope not only with the loss of Coetzee but other players for most of the season. Best has only 3 appearances for example. V.D. Merwe also. Luke Marshall and others have missed half of all games. Sadly even when most are fit they can often end up not being selected or playing out of position and herein lies one of Les's main flaws. It seems he would have difficulty not just picking his nose but actually selecting it on his left foot.

One upside of the catastrophic injury list is that we have seen how good some of the young guys might actually be. Kiss isn't unpopular because of Ulster losing games, it is because of the decline in how the team is playing. We can see the writing on the wall if it doesn't turn around. Still, he can't suddenly magic up replacement players for the likes of Payne or Bowe, Trimble, Henry who are on the slide. He certainly can't turn over a stone and dig up cover for the 'Two Young gentlemen.'

Excellent post Jaco. Very fair and I agree with pretty much all of it.

On Anscombe I refer to my earlier point about Guardiola. Look at the squad Amscombe had...Court, Best, Afoa, Muller, Tuohy, Henderson (I don't think Fez played much under him), Henry, Williams. You then had Pienaar in his pomp, a terrific centre pairing in Wallace and Cave, a young Luke Marshall and Paddy Jackson, and a back three of Trimble, Gilroy, Bowe and Payne. It was a super super team.

Edit - a team I think may well have won the 2013 HEC had Payne not be sent off against Saracens or certainly would have got to a home semi final against Clermont and possibly a final against Toulon.

stephen_n · 03-01-2018 9:24pm

jacothelad wrote: »

.

I would be happy for Kiss to stay if it suddenly looked like the usually high standard of Ulster's defence was restored. At the moment it has all the tensile strength of a piece of wet bog roll. . What in the name of Dog is he at? The guys look like they would have difficulty tackling a runaway tortoise undergoing a prostate exam from a 9 fingered leper.
.'

This is the bit I don’t get, how is it Kiss’s fault the players can’t tackle? I get your point earlier about the style of defence. But players missing or falling off tackles is hardly anyone’s fault except the player doing it.

prawnsambo · 03-01-2018 9:27pm

jacothelad wrote: »

It wasn't player power at all, rather it was an issue with his management style and his 'treatment' of some players while socialising exuberantly with others. Many of the more party orientated guys loved him. I thought he was a good coach and suspect that the Holy Roller Mafia in the 'Management Committee' may have been behind it. They may not have enjoyed his stress relieving visits to Cutters Wharf. Utterly inept, antiquated, stupid, freeloading twozzers to a man. They are the unpleasant scrotes who sacked Matt Williams by 'phone when he was in Singapore Airport on his way to Oz for Christmas. That is no way to do business.

As always Jaco, your posts are such a good read.

I'd just say about the bolded bit, that it's very poor management to indulge in what you describe. It could well have been 'player power' by those excluded from the drinking inner circle who would have rightly cried foul.

You're always going to create an 'us and them' division with that kind of carry on. And you can't manage effectively with your drinking buddies.

prawnsambo · 03-01-2018 9:33pm

stephen_n wrote: »

This is the bit I don’t get, how is it Kiss’s fault the players can’t tackle? I get your point earlier about the style of defence. But players missing or falling off tackles is hardly anyone’s fault except the player doing it.

But they can tackle. Four missed against Munster is a staggering statistic. Less than 5% iirc. However I see some less than stellar efforts from players you;d expect more from. Henderson against Connacht was a disgrace imo. Hard to fathom, but whether it's trying to avoid injury so as to be fit for the 6N, or not being arsed because there's nobody nipping at your heels is probably irrelevant other than the fact that it's happening.

Younger lads are stepping up though and a bit more competition should put that stuff away for good.

jacothelad · 03-01-2018 9:43pm

stephen_n wrote: »

This is the bit I don’t get, how is it Kiss’s fault the players can’t tackle? I get your point earlier about the style of defence. But players missing or falling off tackles is hardly anyone’s fault except the player doing it.

My point was that the defence set up is so poor week on week that it's
a) surely got to be what the players are tasked with. Under Jonny Bell, Ulster had an aggressive line defence that made it hard for the opposition to breach it hence the concession of for example 26 or 29 tries in a full league season compared to 47 last season and 37 in 12 games so far in this season. 47 so far this season if you include the ERC games.
and
b) It makes the narrowness of and lack of line speed and co-ordination put the tacklers in situations where they are not in the right positions to be effective. It reduces the chances of making robust tackles and gives opponents a much easier time to score on the outside.

bilston · 03-01-2018 10:15pm

To be fair we conceded 17 points against Munster because we couldn't defend a maul. Does that lie at the door of the defence coach or the forwards coach?

03-01-2018 10:20pm

bilston wrote: »

To be fair we conceded 17 points against Munster because we couldn't defend a maul. Does that lie at the door of the defence coach or the forwards coach?

The penalty try was a scrum but either way you'd think that's whoever is in charge of the set piece, so forwards.

swiwi_ · 03-01-2018 10:26pm

I can’t think of a witty thread title...but fun fact RESULT is an anagram of Ulster...

(Also in the days of Nokia phones and autocorrect Trimble became urinal - my boss used to cry himself laughing, I didn’t find it that funny...)

Former Former · 03-01-2018 10:26pm

Ulster have been through so many coaches that I don't see how we can avoid the conclusion that either the environment is toxic or the players are, or both.

I don't believe that the problem is McLaughlin and Anscombe and Doak and Clarke and Kiss and Gibbes. It couldn't be.

I think time and a few player retirements will help tbh.

molloyjh · 03-01-2018 10:38pm

Isn’t Dundon the scrum coach?

bilston · 03-01-2018 10:44pm

molloyjh wrote: »

Isn’t Dundon the scrum coach?

Yep

Paul Smeenus · 03-01-2018 11:40pm

Mod edit: Will people please stop making allegations about individuals please? If it can't be substantiated with published proof it's potentially libellous and we don't tolerate speculation about players/staff personal lives either.

Zzippy · 03-01-2018 11:46pm

jacothelad wrote: »

The guys look like they would have difficulty tackling a runaway tortoise undergoing a prostate exam from a 9 fingered leper.

stephen_n wrote: »

This is the bit I don’t get, how is it Kiss’s fault the players can’t tackle? I get your point earlier about the style of defence. But players missing or falling off tackles is hardly anyone’s fault except the player doing it.

A sentence that involves tortoises, prostate exams and 9-fingered lepers, and all you can say is he's wrong about the tackling!

I think the most original thread title so far is Les Miserables. Any more suggestions before it's changed?

bilston · 03-01-2018 11:48pm

Zzippy wrote: »

jacothelad wrote: »

The guys look like they would have difficulty tackling a runaway tortoise undergoing a prostate exam from a 9 fingered leper.

stephen_n wrote: »

This is the bit I don’t get, how is it Kiss’s fault the players can’t tackle? I get your point earlier about the style of defence. But players missing or falling off tackles is hardly anyone’s fault except the player doing it.

A sentence that involves tortoises, prostate exams and 9-fingered lepers, and all you can say is he's wrong about the tackling!

I think the most original thread title so far is Les Miserables. Any more suggestions before it's changed?

Sounds good to me Zzippy

jacothelad · 03-01-2018 11:58pm

Paul Smeenus wrote: »

Mod edit: Unsubstantiated allegations removed

I had heard this also but not from anyone directly involved or who had observed such episodes. i wouldn't care if Caligula was DOR and Nero was the forwards coacxh if it meant we might win something.

As for the title

Les Kisserabbles seems appropriate.

Paul Smeenus · 03-01-2018 11:59pm

Were Treadwell, Herring, McCloskey and Stockdale able to tackle playing for Ireland?

Presumably if Saint Joe lines Ulster players up for the Six Nations, he thinks they can tackle okay?

Paul Smeenus · 04-01-2018 12:01am

jacothelad wrote: »

Paul Smeenus wrote: »

Mod edit: Unsubstantiated allegations removed

I had heard this also but not from anyone directly involved or who had observed such episodes. i wouldn't care if Caligula was DOR and Nero was the forwards coacxh if it meant we might win something.

As for the title

Les Kisserabble seems appropriate.

You'd care if there was legal action threatening our coach as well as two of the young men the branch was planning on building a team around long term.

swiwi_ · 04-01-2018 6:16am

Zzippy wrote: »

I think the most original thread title so far is Les Miserables. Any more suggestions before it's changed?

Are Ulster fans aware that misérable in French doesn't mean "sad" but rather "impoverished"?

I'm aware Ulster haven't won silverware for a while, but calling that impoverished is a really bleak view on things!

(but I agree with Jaco that Les Kisserables has some wit about it, especially given the lack of too many other options. If only Ulster has chosen the Star Wars theme first...)

stephen_n · 04-01-2018 8:19am

jacothelad wrote: »

My point was that the defence set up is so poor week on week that it's
a) surely got to be what the players are tasked with. Under Jonny Bell, Ulster had an aggressive line defence that made it hard for the opposition to breach it hence the concession of for example 26 or 29 tries in a full league season compared to 47 last season and 37 in 12 games so far in this season. 47 so far this season if you include the ERC games.
and
b) It makes the narrowness of and lack of line speed and co-ordination put the tacklers in situations where they are not in the right positions to be effective. It reduces the chances of making robust tackles and gives opponents a much easier time to score on the outside.

a) we never really know what the players are tasked with, just the overview of a system. Again if you’re going to make comparisons with past systems though. Kiss’s Systems have worked at a much higher level than Pro-14.

b) surely the system you are employing lends itself to less mistakes. The rush system leads to more overall missed tackles, but with the system Ulster are employing, there should me more accuracy. If there is an issue with line speed, then that’s implementation not the system?

Paul Smeenus · 04-01-2018 9:35am

Again, so you think Schmidt has an issue with the tackling of Herring, Treadwell, McCloskey, Reidy etc? Or does he think it's the system? Given he ha selected them to play for Ireland in the last six months (where none of them performed poorly in defence).

Occam's Razor would suggest Kiss is doing a poor job of balancing being the de facto head coach with organising the defence, or that he is sticking to outdated ideas. Blaming it on professional players spontaneously losing the ability to tackle in a white jersey is gong around the houses to get the end conclusion you want.

Here's a question. What do McLaughlin, Anscomb, Doak, Kiss and even Gibbes have in common?

Not one had been a Head Coach at club level before coming to Ulster?

Not one had been a head coach at this level of rugby before.

That's the blazers' fault. They need to get us a steady hand rather than taking punt after punt.

DGRulz · 04-01-2018 10:04am

swiwi_ wrote: »

Are Ulster fans aware that misérable in French doesn't mean "sad" but rather "impoverished"?

I'm aware Ulster haven't won silverware for a while, but calling that impoverished is a really bleak view on things!

(but I agree with Jaco that Les Kisserables has some wit about it, especially given the lack of too many other options. If only Ulster has chosen the Star Wars theme first...)

It's not too late for them to adopt it now. Sure, they've already started adopting our players.

04-01-2018 10:16am

Ulster Team Talk Thread III: Smiley happy people holding hands

Buer · 04-01-2018 10:26am

Paul Smeenus wrote: »

Here's a question. What do McLaughlin, Anscomb, Doak, Kiss and even Gibbes have in common?

Not one had been a Head Coach at club level before coming to Ulster?

Not one had been a head coach at this level of rugby before.

That's certainly not unusual in Irish rugby though. Cullen, Cheika, Schmidt, Foley, Van Graan, Kidney, Bradley, Elwood etc. None of them had any significant senior head coaching experience at professional level before getting their provincial appointments.

If someone has the credentials, talent and experience within the professional environment, then I think they'll be equipped to be a successful coach. One or two of the names listed above were extremely successful coaches with their Ulster stints sticking out as the worst spells of their careers.

I don't know what the issue is but there's something bigger at work here whether it's something within the culture of Ulster Rugby or the supporting structures and development.

Former Former · 04-01-2018 10:39am

Paul Smeenus wrote: »

Again, so you think Schmidt has an issue with the tackling of Herring, Treadwell, McCloskey, Reidy etc? Or does he think it's the system? Given he ha selected them to play for Ireland in the last six months (where none of them performed poorly in defence).

Fuzzy logic here. I don't know if Schmidt has an issue with their defence but he has some issue with each and every one of them.

Herring made his debut in 2014 (two minutes off the bench in Argentina) and wasn't seen again for over three years, came off the bench against SA, started against Fiji... then dropped for Argentina.

Treadwell only got 15 mins off the bench against Fiji. Too early to call.

McCloskey made his debut in Febrary 2016 - then nothing until for 19 months, gets a run against Fiji but Chris Farrell is preferred the following week.

Reidy has a test career totalling 30 minutes. He didn't feature at all in November.

You can add Marshall, Gilroy, Cave and even Jackson to the list of guys who have been much bigger hits at Ulster than they have with Joe. Ludik and Herbst have become Ireland-eligible with nary a call-up in sight.

I'm not saying these guys are bad players, but their history of selection under Joe would actually make the opposite point to the one you're making.

thomond2006 · 04-01-2018 10:44am

Ulster Team Talk Thread III - Tortoise undergoing a prostate exam

thomond2006 · 04-01-2018 11:24am

(c) - jacothelad

prawnsambo · 04-01-2018 11:30am

swiwi_ wrote: »

Are Ulster fans aware that misérable in French doesn't mean "sad" but rather "impoverished"?

I'm aware Ulster haven't won silverware for a while, but calling that impoverished is a really bleak view on things!

(but I agree with Jaco that Les Kisserables has some wit about it, especially given the lack of too many other options. If only Ulster has chosen the Star Wars theme first...)

Impverished is probably very apt really. Have you looked at that table of players and appearances I made on page one? Something like 15 players unavailable or thereabouts.

stephen_n · 04-01-2018 11:52am

Paul Smeenus wrote: »

Again, so you think Schmidt has an issue with the tackling of Herring, Treadwell, McCloskey, Reidy etc? Or does he think it's the system? Given he ha selected them to play for Ireland in the last six months (where none of them performed poorly in defence).
.

Players from all the provinces seem to play better for “saint Joe”, that’s not unusual. It happened with Leinster when MO’C was in charge. To use a phrase I hate, their were cultural issues within Leinster at that stage, so why do you think those issues don’t exist within the Ulster setup. As Bilston pointed out earlier,, you could see Henderson going around looking half arsed (a senior player), do you think he’d do that for Ireland? Now I think that it is a coaches job to drive the players, so Kiss has responsibility here. But again Jono was supposed to have an impact there, which hasn’t materialized, so maybe the players just don’t care that much.

prawnsambo · 04-01-2018 12:03pm

stephen_n wrote: »

Players from all the provinces seem to play better for “saint Joe”, that’s not unusual. It happened with Leinster when MO’C was in charge. To use a phrase I hate, their were cultural issues within Leinster at that stage, so why do you think those issues don’t exist within the Ulster setup. As Bilston pointed out earlier,, you could see Henderson going around looking half arsed (a senior player), do you think he’d do that for Ireland? Now I think that it is a coaches job to drive the players, so Kiss has responsibility here. But again Jono was supposed to have an impact there, which hasn’t materialized, so maybe the players just don’t care that much.

The problem as I see it for players putting in half-arsed tackles and efforts for Ulster is because they have no real competition. Who's actually challenging Henderson for his spot? Even if everyone (including Ethel the tea lady*) is fit, he still has no real competition.

*No idea if he makes a nice cup of tea.

Paul Smeenus · 04-01-2018 12:09pm

Former Former wrote: »

Paul Smeenus wrote: »

Again, so you think Schmidt has an issue with the tackling of Herring, Treadwell, McCloskey, Reidy etc? Or does he think it's the system? Given he ha selected them to play for Ireland in the last six months (where none of them performed poorly in defence).

Fuzzy logic here. I don't know if Schmidt has an issue with their defence but he has some issue with each and every one of them.

Herring made his debut in 2014 (two minutes off the bench in Argentina) and wasn't seen again for over three years, came off the bench against SA, started against Fiji... then dropped for Argentina.

Treadwell only got 15 mins off the bench against Fiji. Too early to call.

McCloskey made his debut in Febrary 2016 - then nothing until for 19 months, gets a run against Fiji but Chris Farrell is preferred the following week.

Reidy has a test career totalling 30 minutes. He didn't feature at all in November.

You can add Marshall, Gilroy, Cave and even Jackson to the list of guys who have been much bigger hits at Ulster than they have with Joe. Ludik and Herbst have become Ireland-eligible with nary a call-up in sight.

I'm not saying these guys are bad players, but their history of selection under Joe would actually make the opposite point to the one you're making.

Nice try.

So you think Joe would select them if he thought they couldn't tackle?

It doesn't make the opposite point at all. All have been left out for superior players. Unless you think that only players with 10+ caps are capable of competent defending at Pro14 level.

None would have ever gotten a single cap if Joe thought their personal tackling and inability to be organised defensively was the cause of the current defensive malaise at Ulster.

Joe thinks they are capable of turning in sufficiently good see above performances to play international rugby. Sporadically or not. Is there a reason they can reach that bar for an international cap but don't defend as well at club level, that is something to do with their own abilities? Or does it simply make more sense that it's something to do with the guy organising the defence at club level?

stephen_n · 04-01-2018 12:12pm

prawnsambo wrote: »

The problem as I see it for players putting in half-arsed tackles and efforts for Ulster is because they have no real competition. Who's actually challenging Henderson for his spot? Even if everyone (including Ethel the tea lady*) is fit, he still has no real competition.

*No idea if he makes a nice cup of tea.

And that’s the thing possibly hampering the coaches, they can’t really drop players who aren’t performing. Although that doesn’t tally with what happened with Cave.

stephen_n · 04-01-2018 12:14pm

Paul Smeenus wrote: »

Nice try.

So you think Joe would select them if he thought they couldn't tackle?

I think in McCloskeys case that’s exactly why he wasn’t getting picked.

Paul Smeenus · 04-01-2018 12:16pm

Hendo's knackered from the Lions. See also the article about Jack McGrath in the 42.

prawnsambo · 04-01-2018 12:16pm

stephen_n wrote: »

And that’s the thing possibly hampering the coaches, they can’t really drop players who aren’t performing. Although that doesn’t tally with what happened with Cave.

Well it does. Because they replaced Cave with all kinds of everything including Tommy Bowe, Louis Ludik, Ethel the tea lady etc.

In some ways it's kind of unfair. To continue the French theme, dropping guys 'pour encourager les autres' only works if you can do the same with 'les autres'.

Paul Smeenus · 04-01-2018 12:16pm

So why pick him on November?

Former Former · 04-01-2018 12:28pm

Paul Smeenus wrote: »

So why pick him on November?

You are required to field 23 players.

I don't know why McCloskey is not a Joe favourite, maybe it's his defence, maybe it's something else, but no, he doesn't rate him at all.

prawnsambo · 04-01-2018 12:33pm

Paul Smeenus wrote: »

Hendo's knackered from the Lions. See also the article about Jack McGrath in the 42.

That may well be the case. His worst showing was against Connacht which was after two tough starts againsts Quins.

Paul Smeenus · 04-01-2018 12:35pm

That's kind of off the point. We've been discussing whether Ulster's defensive issues are more likely because of the organisation or because none of the players can tackle. Joe thought they were capable of defending at I international level. Whether he prefers Henshaw is not really the issue.

prawnsambo · 04-01-2018 12:36pm

Former Former wrote: »

You are required to field 23 players.

I don't know why McCloskey is not a Joe favourite, maybe it's his defence, maybe it's something else, but no, he doesn't rate him at all.

I suspect that he's at a standard that's capable at international level, but that's his ceiling.

Paul Smeenus · 04-01-2018 12:37pm

Not that you mentioned Henshaw, but you get my point. I'm not particularly gutted that Joe doesn't think he's as good as other options

Paul Smeenus · 04-01-2018 12:38pm

prawnsambo wrote: »

Former Former wrote: »

You are required to field 23 players.

I don't know why McCloskey is not a Joe favourite, maybe it's his defence, maybe it's something else, but no, he doesn't rate him at all.

I suspect that he's at a standard that's capable at international level, but that's his ceiling.

Does that include tackling?

prawnsambo · 04-01-2018 12:44pm

Paul Smeenus wrote: »

That's kind of off the point. We've been discussing whether Ulster's defensive issues are more likely because of the organisation or because none of the players can tackle. Joe thought they were capable of defending at I international level. Whether he prefers Henshaw is not really the issue.

I think you're over-simplifying this. I doubt that Ulster players can't tackle. Four missed tackles agianst Munster is a damn good stat. Lots of teams would be popping the champagne with missed tackles in single figures.

I don't even know why we're discussing Ulster players' tackling abilities in an international context. There's far more to the equation than just tackling. As a defensive system, Ireland primarily utilise a rush defence. That puts a lot of emphasis on trusting your teammates and ensuring you get your line speed right. But it's not always a rush defence. There are times when the drift is a better choice and the players are expected to make those decisions on the hoof. And that's just the defensive systems we're talking about.

Paul Smeenus · 04-01-2018 12:58pm

Because Ulster fans who have been watching many of these players for a few years have seen them cope admirablywith previous defensive systems (including under Barakat not long ago) and international defensive systems, are sceptical about the idea that these players have suddenly become unable to execute a workable defensive system, and are more.minded that the defensive problems are with the system itself, given how extreme the difference on defensive quality has been.

It want long ago Mike McComish,Lewis Stevenson, Michael Allen, Ian Humphreys (!) and Conor Joyce were regularly part of much more robust defence from Ulster.

Ulster Team Talk Thread III: Les Miserables SEE MOD WARNING POST #1924 + #2755

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