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The glorious 12th

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Comments

  • #3402
    munsterlegend
    Registered Users Posts: 6,186 ✭✭✭munsterlegend


    ‘Loyalist violence seemed to glory in its barbarity. Torture-murders were not unusual. The 'romper room', where victims were ritually tortured, was a feature of many loyalist drinking dens. One particular gang, the Shankhill Butchers, so called for their use of butchers' knives, killed at least 19 people in the 1970's. Such murders cannot merely be dismissed as the act of psychotics. Over the troubles, almost 700 Catholic civilians died at loyalist hands (plus over 100 protestants taken for Catholics) - the largest single category of victim. The aim of loyalist violence was to impress on Britain and Irish nationalism that political appeasement of republicanism was not a violence-free option’

    A quote from Marc Mulholland
    Northern Ireland: A Very Short Introduction (Very Short Introductions)


  • #3403
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 70,028 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Junkyard Tom wrote: »
    That ship sailed long ago. If everyone was treated the same then Killer F would have been jailed not long after his murder spree along with hundreds of other security force killers and their enablers down through the years.

    The coming years will see more of these cases coming to the fore. Funny how downcow wants to forget it all now.


  • #3404
    citytillidie
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 22,271 ✭✭✭✭citytillidie


    munsterlegend wrote: »
    Selective amnesia.

    Could say the youngest person killed in the troubles was caused by the actions of the Army but they would justify it

    ******



  • #3405
    munsterlegend
    Registered Users Posts: 6,186 ✭✭✭munsterlegend


    citytillidie wrote: »
    Could say the youngest person killed in the troubles was caused by the actions of the Army but they would justify it

    Its a mindset. Look at DUP defending the band walking around Derry with its parachute crest. Even the march organizers knew it was wrong and acknowledged it just about.


  • #3406
    holyhead
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,249 ✭✭✭holyhead


    munsterlegend wrote: »
    Its a mindset. Look at DUP defending the band walking around Derry with its parachute crest. Even the march organizers knew it was wrong and acknowledged it just about.

    I think the thing about the marching is, is it a genuine historic and cultural tradition or a means of rubbing the noses of the other community in it?


  • #3407
    Odhinn
    Registered Users Posts: 8,137 ✭✭✭Odhinn


    holyhead wrote: »
    I think the thing about the marching is, is it a genuine historic and cultural tradition or a means of rubbing the noses of the other community in it?




    Where they go thru nationalist areas, thats rubbing the nose in it.


  • #3408
    holyhead
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,249 ✭✭✭holyhead


    Odhinn wrote: »
    Where they go thru nationalist areas, thats rubbing the nose in it.

    Is that a case of shifting population or as you say rubbing it in?


  • #3409
    downcow
    Registered Users Posts: 11,629 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    munsterlegend wrote: »
    If there is evidence anyone should be prosecuted and many Republicans/loyalists went to jail. The army and police as we know were protected by whitewash investigations. Everyone deserves to know what happened their loved ones.

    Everyone knows that Bloody Sunday was an important moment in the troubles. The state covered up obvious murder. From then on a can of worms opened where people realized the army brought into protect were also the enemy to the nationalist community.

    Two points.
    So are you saying the letters of comfort to republicans should be rescinded?
    This was the point in radio Ulster this morning. That it is causing serious angst, that the like of BS is being held above other killings


  • #3410
    downcow
    Registered Users Posts: 11,629 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    munsterlegend wrote: »
    Would love to see that link too.

    I’ll have a look tonight


  • #3411
    holyhead
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,249 ✭✭✭holyhead


    downcow wrote: »
    Two points.
    So are you saying the letters of comfort to republicans should be rescinded?
    This was the point in radio Ulster this morning. That it is causing serious angst, that the like of BS is being held above other killings

    The problem with Bloody Sunday was it was state sponsored mass murder. All murder is wrong so not looking to point score.


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  • #3412
    munsterlegend
    Registered Users Posts: 6,186 ✭✭✭munsterlegend


    downcow wrote: »
    Two points.
    So are you saying the letters of comfort to republicans should be rescinded?
    This was the point in radio Ulster this morning. That it is causing serious angst, that the like of BS is being held above other killings

    The British army were never held to account in the first place. Many eye witnesses saw murder that day (which you deny) but the state covered it up. Loyalists and republicans were jailed for their acts but impossible to convict a lot of them due to lack of evidence.


  • #3413
    steddyeddy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,564 ✭✭✭✭steddyeddy


    downcow wrote: »
    Two points.
    So are you saying the letters of comfort to republicans should be rescinded?
    This was the point in radio Ulster this morning. That it is causing serious angst, that the like of BS is being held above other killings

    Are you seriously expect anyone to justify their moral position to you? Earlier you defended a serial killer in a loyalist religious organisation. It's the equivalent of a supporter of the KKK accusing me of defending racists.


  • #3414
    downcow
    Registered Users Posts: 11,629 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    steddyeddy wrote: »
    Yes that was despicable indeed. I'm in complete agreement that the event you're talking about was nothing short of disgusting. All because he was a catholic working as an army cook.

    I appreciate that stedfyeddy. You have risen in my estimations.
    Fair play for recognising stuff in your own community as wrong. Some of us are to quick to point at others


  • #3415
    downcow
    Registered Users Posts: 11,629 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    citytillidie wrote: »
    Her family have asked for it as politicians were using her death at the time to point score just like you are now instead of going for talks to get the government back up and running

    Are you not doing this every day with BS victims. ???


  • #3416
    downcow
    Registered Users Posts: 11,629 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    munsterlegend wrote: »
    ‘Loyalist violence seemed to glory in its barbarity. Torture-murders were not unusual. The 'romper room', where victims were ritually tortured, was a feature of many loyalist drinking dens. One particular gang, the Shankhill Butchers, so called for their use of butchers' knives, killed at least 19 people in the 1970's. Such murders cannot merely be dismissed as the act of psychotics. Over the troubles, almost 700 Catholic civilians died at loyalist hands (plus over 100 protestants taken for Catholics) - the largest single category of victim. The aim of loyalist violence was to impress on Britain and Irish nationalism that political appeasement of republicanism was not a violence-free option’

    A quote from Marc Mulholland
    Northern Ireland: A Very Short Introduction (Very Short Introductions)

    Had you know idea what republicans were doing with their victims when they hel them for the traditional 3 days before they died


  • #3417
    downcow
    Registered Users Posts: 11,629 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    The coming years will see more of these cases coming to the fore. Funny how downcow wants to forget it all now.

    Stop twisting.
    It’s simple.
    Prosecute everyone including your MLAs who have letters of comfort. Or nobody. It simple


  • #3418
    downcow
    Registered Users Posts: 11,629 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    munsterlegend wrote: »
    Its a mindset. Look at DUP defending the band walking around Derry with its parachute crest. Even the march organizers knew it was wrong and acknowledged it just about.

    They did not say it was wrong. Stick to facts


  • #3419
    holyhead
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,249 ✭✭✭holyhead


    downcow wrote: »
    Stop twisting.
    It’s simple.
    Prosecute everyone including your MLAs who have letters of comfort. Or nobody. It simple

    That's a point Shane Paul O'Doherty makes on his blog. The thirst to see soldiers prosecuted and yet Republican and Loyalist thugs can walk the streets because of the GFA.


  • #3420
    downcow
    Registered Users Posts: 11,629 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    Odhinn wrote: »
    Where they go thru nationalist areas, thats rubbing the nose in it.

    I don’t know anywhere they go though nationalist areas but maybe you will give us a couple of examples. ??


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  • #3421
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 70,028 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    downcow wrote: »
    Stop twisting.
    It’s simple.
    Prosecute everyone including your MLAs who have letters of comfort. Or nobody. It simple

    That should have been the rule from the start downcow. It is why we are at this juncture now. And yet you still defend 40 year old actions your criminally negligent government eventually had to apologise unequivocally for.
    There is a long way to go yet to try and balance the books.


  • #3422
    downcow
    Registered Users Posts: 11,629 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    holyhead wrote: »
    The problem with Bloody Sunday was it was state sponsored mass murder. All murder is wrong so not looking to point score.

    I get what you are saying and find your posts valuable.
    But here’s the problem. If you are the mother of a young man who joined the udr because he wanted to protect his community and the ira lie in a hedge to shoot him in the back as he courts his young girlfriend while of duty then you see that as much worse than the killing of people out actively protesting.
    If you are the mother of that little baby murdered by the ira in strabane then you think it was much more innocent than people who were killed while out protesting.
    I’m not saying these should be compared. But I does really piss off many when those killed on BS are held up as more special and more wrong

    It just depends on where you are looking from


  • #3423
    downcow
    Registered Users Posts: 11,629 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    That should have been the rule from the start downcow. It is why we are at this juncture now. And yet you still defend 40 year old actions your criminally negligent government eventually had to apologise unequivocally for.
    There is a long way to go yet to try and balance the books.

    If your aim is to attempt to agree to balance books in a contested society then you are on a hiding to nothing. Not a chance.


  • #3424
    munsterlegend
    Registered Users Posts: 6,186 ✭✭✭munsterlegend


    downcow wrote: »
    They did not say it was wrong. Stick to facts

    Unionism never apologies for anything. Admitting it shouldn’t have happened is as good as it gets. It was a disgusting to do by that band but not surprising.


  • #3425
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 70,028 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    downcow wrote: »
    I get what you are saying and find your posts valuable.
    But here’s the problem. If you are the mother of a young man who joined the udr because he wanted to protect his community and the ira lie in a hedge to shoot him in the back as he courts his young girlfriend while of duty then you see that as much worse than the killing of people out actively protesting.
    If you are the mother of that little baby murdered by the ira in strabane then you think it was much more innocent than people who were killed while out protesting.
    I’m not saying these should be compared. But I does really piss off many when those killed on BS are held up as more special and more wrong

    It just depends on where you are looking from

    Ah shure why not exploit one sides grief and pain in order not to look coldly at something that was wrong from the day it happened.

    Perhaps if your people turned a critical eye at those responsible for equality and fair governance?

    Nobody's grief and pain is worse than others.


  • #3426
    Odhinn
    Registered Users Posts: 8,137 ✭✭✭Odhinn


    downcow wrote: »
    I get what you are saying and find your posts valuable.
    But here’s the problem. If you are the mother of a young man who joined the udr because he wanted to protect his community and the ira lie in a hedge to shoot him in the back as he courts his young girlfriend while of duty then you see that as much worse than the killing of people out actively protesting.
    If you are the mother of that little baby murdered by the ira in strabane then you think it was much more innocent than people who were killed while out protesting.
    I’m not saying these should be compared. But I does really piss off many when those killed on BS are held up as more special and more wrong

    It just depends on where you are looking from


    Joined the UDR then they made themselves a legitmate target.


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  • #3427
    holyhead
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,249 ✭✭✭holyhead


    downcow wrote: »
    I get what you are saying and find your posts valuable.
    But here’s the problem. If you are the mother of a young man who joined the udr because he wanted to protect his community and the ira lie in a hedge to shoot him in the back as he courts his young girlfriend while of duty then you see that as much worse than the killing of people out actively protesting.
    If you are the mother of that little baby murdered by the ira in strabane then you think it was much more innocent than people who were killed while out protesting.
    I’m not saying these should be compared. But I does really piss off many when those killed on BS are held up as more special and more wrong

    It just depends on where you are looking from

    I appreciate your compliment. Thank you.

    What happened on Bloody Sunday was wrong. It was the greatest recruitment tool ever for the IRA. It's Shane Paul O'Doherty's contention that the IRA engineered the circumstances that set up the killing of those murdered on Bloody Sunday. Be that as it may the State through the army killed it's own citizens. It then instigated a wash out of an investigation which cleared people clearly responsible for what happened. Decades later the truth finally emerges.

    1. I'm not sure a State can ever be justified in killing it's own citizens.
    2. It can never seek to defend those who acted illegally even on it's behalf.
    3. It owes it's citizens the truth no matter the cost.

    This is why Bloody Sunday is so profound in the Irish psyche. Certain killings strike a chord. Many informers were murdered by the IRA yet Jean McConville is the most prominent one that came back to haunt the IRA/SF.

    Gerry Adams denial of ever being in the IRA is quite probably the greatest insult to the intelligence of the Irish people. It is O'Doherty's contention that Martin McGuinness never told the truth about his involvement in Bloody Sunday.

    Now my point is state lies are worse than private lies. State murder is worse than private murder. The State theoretically represents the people, all the people. A private army represent it's members and supporters.


  • #3428
    downcow
    Registered Users Posts: 11,629 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    munsterlegend wrote: »
    Unionism never apologies for anything. Admitting it shouldn’t have happened is as good as it gets. It was a disgusting to do by that band but not surprising.

    They didn’t say it shouldn’t have happened


  • #3429
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 70,028 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    downcow wrote: »
    If your aim is to attempt to agree to balance books in a contested society then you are on a hiding to nothing. Not a chance.

    I said 'try to'.
    If the outcome is (That most observers with a brain will agree) conclusive proof that the British were players in our conflict/war and ultimately responsible for what went up in flames, that is a good thing.

    And we get there, by them dropping their fearful blocking of a Truth commission or dragging the truth out of them, kicking and screaming. It's up to them to take their pick.


  • #3430
    downcow
    Registered Users Posts: 11,629 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    holyhead wrote: »
    I appreciate your compliment. Thank you.

    What happened on Bloody Sunday was wrong. It was the greatest recruitment tool ever for the IRA. It's Shane Paul O'Doherty's contention that the IRA engineered the circumstances that set up the killing of those murdered on Bloody Sunday. Be that as it may the State through the army killed it's own citizens. It then instigated a wash out of an investigation which cleared people clearly responsible for what happened. Decades later the truth finally emerges.

    1. I'm not sure a State can ever be justified in killing it's own citizens.
    2. It can never seek to defend those who acted illegally even on it's behalf.
    3. It owes it's citizens the truth no matter the cost.

    This is why Bloody Sunday is so profound in the Irish psyche. Certain killings strike a chord. Many informers were murdered by the IRA yet Jean McConville is the most prominent one that came back to haunt the IRA/SF.

    Gerry Adams denial of ever being in the IRA is quite probably the greatest insult to the intelligence of the Irish people. It is O'Doherty's contention that Martin McGuinness never told the truth about his involvement in Bloody Sunday.

    Now my point is state lies are worse than private lies. State murder is worse than private murder. The State theoretically represents the people, all the people. A private army represent it's members and supporters.

    I will accept that analysis as very reasonable. But don’t expect those who have lost their close family members to be as objective as me. They will probably struggle to accept the killing of their loved one as somehow not quite as odious as state killings.
    I think it’s the attempt to use the pain of BS to try and rewrite who the main aggressors were is why unionists struggle with giving it quite the recognition it deserves - myself included.


  • #3431
    holyhead
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,249 ✭✭✭holyhead


    downcow wrote: »
    I will accept that analysis as very reasonable. But don’t expect those who have lost their close family members to be as objective as me. They will probably struggle to accept the killing of their loved one as somehow not quite as odious as state killings.
    I think it’s the attempt to use the pain of BS to try and rewrite who the main aggressors were is why unionists struggle with giving it quite the recognition it deserves - myself included.

    It's not a competition to be fair. How would you feel if the Irish state gunned down 14 Unionists marching peacefully on the streets of Cork? Then lied about it claiming they were legitimate targets. Then 40 years later oops sorry we had no cause to shoot them. You can bet they'd be peeved on the Shankill.


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  • #3432
    munsterlegend
    Registered Users Posts: 6,186 ✭✭✭munsterlegend


    downcow wrote: »
    They didn’t say it shouldn’t have happened

    They said they weren’t aware what the band were wearing and understand the hurt caused. What exactly were they saying then? If marching next week would the apprentice boys invite that band again do you think?

    Now unless you are a Neanderthal living under a rock the only purpose of wearing this in Derry of all cities was to cause offense. Thankfully the psni did the right thing.


  • #3433
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 70,028 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    downcow wrote: »
    They will probably struggle to accept the killing of their loved one as somehow not quite as odious as state killings.

    No death will be as odious as the death of your own loved one.

    Would you stop using people in this odious way. To make cheap 'what themuns did was worse' points.


  • #3434
    downcow
    Registered Users Posts: 11,629 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    No death will be as odious as the death of your own loved one.

    Would you stop using people in this odious way. To make cheap 'what themuns did was worse' points.

    I was challenging that very position Thank you.


  • #3435
    Fionn1952
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,636 ✭✭✭Fionn1952


    downcow wrote: »
    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    No death will be as odious as the death of your own loved one.

    Would you stop using people in this odious way. To make cheap 'what themuns did was worse' points.

    I was challenging that very position Thank you.

    Sound, Down....what if those killed by state forces were your loved ones?


  • #3436
    holyhead
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,249 ✭✭✭holyhead


    Should all Loyalist 12th of July Parades be discontinued as anachronistic and antagonistic towards the Catholic community. On that basis should St Patrick's Day Parades cease in Northern Ireland on similar grounds?


  • #3437
    citytillidie
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 22,271 ✭✭✭✭citytillidie


    holyhead wrote: »
    Should all Loyalist 12th of July Parades be discontinued as anachronistic and antagonistic towards the Catholic community. On that basis should St Patrick's Day Parades cease in Northern Ireland on similar grounds?

    St Patrick’s day parades are not about being better than your neighbours so no

    ******



  • #3438
    janfebmar
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,424 ✭✭✭janfebmar


    downcow wrote: »
    I get what you are saying and find your posts valuable.
    But here’s the problem. If you are the mother of a young man who joined the udr because he wanted to protect his community and the ira lie in a hedge to shoot him in the back as he courts his young girlfriend while of duty then you see that as much worse than the killing of people out actively protesting.
    If you are the mother of that little baby murdered by the ira in strabane then you think it was much more innocent than people who were killed while out protesting.
    I’m not saying these should be compared. But I does really piss off many when those killed on BS are held up as more special and more wrong

    It just depends on where you are looking from

    Indeed. The murders which were planned weeks in advance, and which were planned to be murders and atrocities, were in my opinion worse than those which were not.


  • #3439
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 70,028 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    holyhead wrote: »
    Should all Loyalist 12th of July Parades be discontinued as anachronistic and antagonistic towards the Catholic community. On that basis should St Patrick's Day Parades cease in Northern Ireland on similar grounds?

    There are people here who think that just being 'offended' is enough to ban something. Like a parade or the Irish language.

    It isn't.
    `


  • #3440
    munsterlegend
    Registered Users Posts: 6,186 ✭✭✭munsterlegend


    janfebmar wrote: »
    Indeed. The murders which were planned weeks in advance, and which were planned to be murders and atrocities, were in my opinion worse than those which were not.

    What complete nonsense. Murder is murder no matter what political opinion you were. If anything state murder is the worst as those who were actually supposed to protect its citizens in fact were the aggressors.


  • #3441
    RobMc59
    Registered Users Posts: 4,831 ✭✭✭RobMc59


    holyhead wrote: »
    Should all Loyalist 12th of July Parades be discontinued as anachronistic and antagonistic towards the Catholic community. On that basis should St Patrick's Day Parades cease in Northern Ireland on similar grounds?
    Any parade which is aimed at causing upset or seeks to goad others should be banned-that should also apply to bonfires(burning of flags and banners stopped)


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  • #3442
    janfebmar
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,424 ✭✭✭janfebmar


    The people who shot the 2 police people on Derry 2 days before Bloody Sunday were not aggressors as well? Or the people who shot the garda in Adare?


  • #3443
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 70,028 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Took a while but the excuser got here in the end^^^

    https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=111010305&postcount=3369


  • #3444
    gwalk
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,107 ✭✭✭gwalk


    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    Took a while but the excuser got here in the end^^^

    https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=111010305&postcount=3369

    Its almost as if the behaviour of certain posters is very predicatble or a pattern which is constantly repeating itself on this thread

    medness :D


  • #3445
    munsterlegend
    Registered Users Posts: 6,186 ✭✭✭munsterlegend


    janfebmar wrote: »
    The people who shot the 2 police people on Derry 2 days before Bloody Sunday were not aggressors as well? Or the people who shot the garda in Adare?

    Who said they weren’t? It wasn’t the state responsible for those though was it?

    Typically unionist answer to everything. In any other country unionism would be in government and be in charge as they have the majority votes. However we all know what happened. Power was abused and Westminster ignored it until they had no choice. That’s why you lot can’t be let rule outside of power sharing and will never again in the foreseeable.


  • #3446
    blanch152
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 28,348 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    There are people here who think that just being 'offended' is enough to ban something. Like a parade or the Irish language.

    It isn't.
    `


    Or a bonfire?


  • #3447
    timthumbni
    Registered Users Posts: 4,845 ✭✭✭timthumbni


    I see Londonderry headlines the news again this morning as the partner of the wee girl murdered by Irish republicans talks about the fear and grip of the local community these people have.

    Horrible city altogether. Just look at the state of the MEP ffs.


  • #3448
    downcow
    Registered Users Posts: 11,629 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    There are people here who think that just being 'offended' is enough to ban something. Like a parade or the Irish language.

    It isn't.
    `

    Never thought I’d say it about one of Francie posts but
    Ditto. Spot on!


  • #3449
    downcow
    Registered Users Posts: 11,629 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    RobMc59 wrote: »
    Any parade which is aimed at causing upset or seeks to goad others should be banned-that should also apply to bonfires(burning of flags and banners stopped)

    Agreed


  • #3450
    janfebmar
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,424 ✭✭✭janfebmar


    timthumbni wrote: »
    I see Londonderry headlines the news again this morning as the partner of the wee girl murdered by Irish republicans talks about the fear and grip of the local community these people have.

    Horrible city altogether. Just look at the state of the MEP ffs.

    She should have resigned for dancing on the spot where the young protestant boy was murdered by Republicans, and for taking part in a parade where the same Republicans were glorified. I suppose what else fo people expect from SF.


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  • #3451
    munsterlegend
    Registered Users Posts: 6,186 ✭✭✭munsterlegend


    timthumbni wrote: »
    I see Londonderry headlines the news again this morning as the partner of the wee girl murdered by Irish republicans talks about the fear and grip of the local community these people have.

    Horrible city altogether. Just look at the state of the MEP ffs.

    https://www.google.ie/amp/s/www.bbc.com/news/amp/uk-northern-ireland-47679072

    Loyalist scum wouldn’t you agree?


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