DB fare increase

punisher5112 · 02-12-2018 12:29pm

devnull wrote: »

The trouble with Travel 90 was you physically had to buy a ticket, rather than it happening automatically and it was no use to anyone who used more than just the bus, so for someone who at the time didn't live near a DB ticket agent and has pretty much almost always have used two modes, it wasn't very useful.

It depends what your usage pattern is though, but I've found capping and Leap 90 to be far more useful and save me more money than Travel 90 did, but understand there will be other people where Travel 90 might have suited them better.

There were feeder tickets and ramblers to suit bus and train also.

vrusinov · 02-12-2018 12:32pm

Dravokivich wrote: »

That's an awful lot of equipment to maintain and update.

There are two validators now - on the right side and driver's. If cash fares are cancelled, the complicated unit from driver's side can be replaced with another simple validator for short-term fare.

Stephen15 · 02-12-2018 12:56pm

devnull wrote: »

The trouble with Travel 90 was you physically had to buy a ticket, rather than it happening automatically and it was no use to anyone who used more than just the bus, so for someone who at the time didn't live near a DB ticket agent and has pretty much always had to use two modes, it wasn't very useful since a train + bus or LUAS + Bus was always quicker and/or more reliable.

It depends what your usage pattern is though, but I've found capping and Leap 90 to be far more useful and save me more money than Travel 90 did, but understand there will be other people where Travel 90 might have suited them better.

You could have bought a carnet of 10 or 20 of them if you were using them on a regular basis and didn't want to constantly have to go to the shop to buy them but I'd agree that Leap is a handy system than the travel 90. I do think though that they should have made the second bus free on Leap within 90 mins and only have the €1 charge apply to Luas, DART and commuter rail.

devnull · 02-12-2018 1:04pm

punisher5112 wrote: »

There were feeder tickets and ramblers to suit bus and train also.

Again, feeder tickets were not advertised at all, required knowledge that they existed, which even myself as a clued up transport user didn't know about, whereas capping like Leap 90, is automatic which is far more convenient.

devnull · 02-12-2018 1:04pm

vrusinov wrote: »

There are two validators now - on the right side and driver's. If cash fares are cancelled, the complicated unit from driver's side can be replaced with another simple validator for short-term fare.

And welcome a huge amount of fare evasion when people use the cheaper validator when they are taking long trips?

punisher5112 · 02-12-2018 1:05pm

devnull wrote: »

Again, feeder tickets were not advertised at all, required knowledge that they existed, which even myself as a clued up transport user didn't know about, whereas capping like Leap 90, is automatic which is far more convenient.

I'm just stating there were products available that saved people money.

The travel 90 across all will be great.

Qrt · 02-12-2018 1:22pm

I'm almost certain that the NTA mentioned somewhere that it was "a flat fare or tag on/tag off system" so if they're not doing the flat fare, I can only assume its the latter...

Stephen15 · 02-12-2018 1:29pm

devnull wrote: »

And welcome a huge amount of fare evasion when people use the cheaper validator when they are taking long trips?

Fair point but people do can do it already by lying to the driver a second validator would just make it a lot more convenient for people to override as it's just a simple tap and no lies required. However the issues could be sorted if they hired a lot more dedicated revenue protection officers meaning that they aren't just relying on drivers.

They should have two validators and a flat fare in my opinion one by the doors as is currently and another by the driver. Having two validators would help speed up boarding times. Better still would be a number of validators located throughout the bus away from the driver so people could scan their leap cards and hopefully contactless while the bus is in motion.

Stephen15 · 02-12-2018 1:36pm

Qrt wrote: »

I'm almost certain that the NTA mentioned somewhere that it was "a flat fare or tag on/tag off system" so if they're not doing the flat fare, I can only assume its the latter...

I think they'll go for the flat fare option while keeping the €1.50 stages 1-3 fare option with driver interaction. These fare increases/decreases are to try and make the €2.60 and €2.15 fares meet in the middle. So a flat fare would likely be around the €2.40 mark.

devnull · 02-12-2018 1:39pm

Stephen15 wrote: »

They should have two validators and a foat fare in my opinion one by the doors as is currently and another by the driver. Having two validators would help speed up boarding times.

It seems that the NTA are heading for a system where there is a short distance fare as well as a 90 minute transfer ticket and honestly, there are some ways that you can implement this with Leap, thanks to the features built into the Leap system, without encouraging fare evasion as well as gaining some of the benefits of a flat fare.

For short journeys, you could simply deduct the flat transfer fare on tag on, say of £2.50 and if a passengers gets off after a short period and tags off, refund the difference between the short hop fare and the transfer fare, and mark the fare as completed so it can no longer be used for any transfers.

This will allow you to have the benefit of removing driver interaction on boarding which is the biggest problem with dwell times, as well as guarding against most types of fare evasion. Not a perfect system, but it could be done without any investment in extra equipment and additional training.

XPS_Zero · 02-12-2018 1:54pm

The Belfast Glider has you tag on at the stops before you get on the bus, when we move to the flat fare we should institute that, all we have to do is attach the validator to the RTPI pole and connect the two to the same network surely?

Mongfinder General wrote: »

I’ve sympathy for most people who have to use Dublin bus. Buses are packed from 7-10 and 4-7 every day. It’s obnoxious. And then there’s having to subsidize the scroungers who don’t pay a fare (not OAPs). If you can find another way like cycling, then do it.

Only disabled, carers and seniors GET FT cards to begin with so I don't know who these scroungers would be. 4/5 people who are on disability allowance obtain the disability during employment. Fraud is extremely difficult in this area (estimated to be about 4%), though it would be even harder if they bothered to send people to independent doctors for reviews like they used to (they just suddenly stopped doing this in the middle of the recession because they didn't wanna pay them the fees)

You also don't subsidize them via your fares, but via your taxes. Your PRSI pays for it the same way the people who are 10 and 12 now will have their PRSI pay for your FT card when you are over 66, or I will pay for yours in the near future if you get a short or long term disability. FT program is funded by the Department of Social Protection not the NTA and research shows such programs are a net neutral or net gain to the taxpayer because of what they save the govt in healthcare costs (seniors and the disabled tend to become shut ins, which puts their overall health into a nosedive and instead of their condition costing 5-6k a year to treat it can end up costing 70k a year to treat, the FT pass gets them out and about).
So you are paying for their FT the same way other people paid for you to go to school, hospital, helped your mother buy your clothes when you were a kid etc...we all subsidize each other that's how a social market economy works.

It's also an economic stimulus because it cuts out the travel costs allowing people to spread money around in places they could never have afforded to get to otherwise.

devnull · 02-12-2018 1:58pm

XPS_Zero wrote: »

The Belfast Glider has you tag on at the stops before you get on the bus, when we move to the flat fare we should institute that, all we have to do is attach the validator to the RTPI pole and connect the two to the same network surely?

And how many bus stops does the Glider have versus the number of bus stops that are used by Dublin City bus services?

It's one thing to have a hand-picked single route with low double digit numbers of stops with their own validator, it's completely another thing to do it for several thousand, pay for all the infrastructure, installation works, digging, spares and maintenance and systems programming.

caviardreams · 02-12-2018 6:19pm

I wonder if they could have a validator at a few of the very major stop e.g. Blanchardstown shopping centre, DCU, UCD for example to speed up people getting on where there are often 15-20+ people at a stop?

Spanish Eyes · 02-12-2018 6:26pm

I really do not understand this Short Journey fare at all.

I haven't gone to any country yet that has two separate fares within a zone. But I am sure there are some exceptions since I haven't travelled on every bus on the planet either!

Maybe a ten journey short hop ticket that can be validated might work..... but opens up the possibility of fare evasion doesn't it?

Flat fare or nothing is the way to go really, and no cash fares anymore either.

Remember a lot of people who need the bus for two or three stops might be mobility impaired, elderly etc. and will therefore have FT. Anyone else can walk or pay the flat fare.

Sorry for sounding so grumpy.

devnull · 02-12-2018 6:30pm

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

Maybe a ten journey short hop ticket that can be validated might work..... but opens up the possibility of fare evasion doesn't it?

It doesn't to the same degree if everyone gets the maximum transfer fare deducted on boarding and then gets the difference between the short hop and transfer fare rebated if they got off within a certain time/distance.

Spanish Eyes · 02-12-2018 6:41pm

devnull wrote: »

It doesn't to the same degree if everyone gets the maximum transfer fare deducted on boarding and then gets the difference between the short hop and transfer fare rebated if they got off within a certain time/distance.

Yep, with you on that, but requires a system like DART or LUAS, tag on, tag off I think.

devnull · 02-12-2018 6:47pm

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

Yep, with you on that, but requires a system like DART or LUAS, tag on, tag off I think.

Only people who need to tag off are the people who are using the short fare as this will complete the journey and rebate the difference between short and transfer fares. Other people just get off the bus as normal.

It's not a perfect system but it does remove the need for driver interaction as well as not opening up a large potential for fare evasion whilst also not introducing any up-front costs.

Bray Head · 02-12-2018 6:55pm

Any system that involves the introduction of tagging off will slow down the whole boarding and alighting process.

It would make the whole system less efficient and should be resisted.

Qrt · 02-12-2018 6:56pm

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

I haven't gone to any country yet that has two separate fares within a zone.

Berlin has one, fairly certain Hamburg does, Munich too by the looks of things. "Kurzstrecke" they call it afaik.

devnull · 02-12-2018 7:01pm

Bray Head wrote: »

Any system that involves the introduction of tagging off will slow down the whole boarding and alighting process.

It would make the whole system less efficient and should be resisted.

The current system is far worse though because it involves driver interaction which is even slower and is resulting in a lot of over-riding based fare evasion.

A system where everybody who gets on just tags on regardless of distance and doesn't need to speak to the driver would save more time than would be lost by people who are going short distances tagging off unaided.

I grant you that it is not a perfect system, but if we have to choose between people speaking to the driver and tagging on, or tagging off and not speaking to a driver, the later will always be faster.

If you have another way of running a two fare system without spending tens of millions in infrastructure costs and risking huge amounts of fare evasion, I'm all ears.

Spanish Eyes · 02-12-2018 7:05pm

Qrt wrote: »

Berlin has one, fairly certain Hamburg does, Munich too by the looks of things. "Kurzstrecke" they call it afaik.

Ok fair enough. Do those short journey fares require interraction with the driver though? Or is it a tag on/off system?

Spanish Eyes · 02-12-2018 7:07pm

devnull wrote: »

Only people who need to tag off are the people who are using the short fare as this will complete the journey and rebate the difference between short and transfer fares. Other people just get off the bus as normal.

It's not a perfect system but it does remove the need for driver interaction as well as not opening up a large potential for fare evasion whilst also not introducing any up-front costs.

Tag off on DB is not there yet though. Would it require a lot of investment to introduce it I wonder?

Stephen15 · 02-12-2018 7:11pm

XPS_Zero wrote: »

The Belfast Glider has you tag on at the stops before you get on the bus, when we move to the flat fare we should institute that, all we have to do is attach the validator to the RTPI pole and connect the two to the same network surely?

Won't happen as there's nearly 2,000 bus stops across the city and the vast majority do not have RTPI poles. The Glider is a limited system like the Luas. I have yet to see any city that has installed validators at bus stops other than for BRT which is Glider is.

The costs of installing and maintaining validators at stops across would be too high and money could be better spent elsewhere.

devnull · 02-12-2018 7:25pm

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

Tag off on DB is not there yet though. Would it require a lot of investment to introduce it I wonder?

The equipment that they have, should be able to support it, with the relevant programming. it's just a decision not to use it and honestly, with the current fare system, such a system would not really work anyway. But if you had a short fare and a transfer fare, it would work.

The problem is there is no way of getting around having either driver interaction (which itself has fare evasion issues) or tagging off in a two fare system, without introducing large additional infrastructure costs or risk of fare evasion.

Tagging off isn't a perfect option, I recognise that, however as well as being faster than driver interaction, it has less risk of fare evasion because the maximum fare deduction and rebate model essentially treats you as riding the higher fare unless you prove otherwise, rather than relying on honesty.

If we had a single flat transfer fare then fare evasion would be dead as a dodo, but unfortunately that would result in a lot of short trippers paying a lot more than they are now and I can't see that being politically viable, since if you think how much the local politicians got annoyed with BusConnects, if the flat fare goes to say €2.40, everyone from PBP will be campaigning about the 50% hike. And DB will almost certainly resist.

Stephen15 · 02-12-2018 7:27pm

devnull wrote: »

The current system is far worse though because it involves driver interaction which is even slower and is resulting in a lot of over-riding based fare evasion.

A system where everybody who gets on just tags on regardless of distance and doesn't need to speak to the driver would save more time than would be lost by people who are going short distances tagging off unaided.

I grant you that it is not a perfect system, but if we have to choose between people speaking to the driver and tagging on, or tagging off and not speaking to a driver, the later will always be faster.

If you have another way of running a two fare system without spending tens of millions in infrastructure costs and risking huge amounts of fare evasion, I'm all ears.

I would favour a flat fare over a tag on/off system. Having a 1-3 stage journey is a bit daft if you ask me as it only encourages people to do small trips which in many cases could and should be done on bike or by foot. Older and disabled people unable to walk would likely have an FTP.

I think a flat fare would be the best system to combat evasion but the best way to stop evasion would be for boots on the ground meaning a large RPO recruitment drive. Perhaps the NTA could merge Luas and Bus revenue protection together and have revenue protection on and off buses and tramd throughout the day have revenue protection officers directly employed by the NTA rather than by DB, GAI or Transdev directly.

Qrt · 02-12-2018 7:34pm

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

Ok fair enough. Do those short journey fares require interraction with the driver though? Or is it a tag on/off system?

The German’s don’t do tag on tag off. I don’t think there’s a single smart card system in the country. You either get the ticket from the driver (who gives change), or you get on with a ticket already, if you’ve just got off the U-Bahn for example.

...and this is in Berlin!

prinzeugen · 03-12-2018 6:00am

Qrt wrote: »

This post gave me various illnesses. Use auto-top-up, most people use the right hand validator, and if it’s illegal to charge with different payment types then every transport system in the EU must be breaking it.

People using cash on buses need to be fired out of a cannon and off this island.

What if you only use the bus once or twice a week? Why must I buy a leap card?

And it was on the BBC watchdog that you cannot be charged a premium for using a certain payment method.

Ie if its €2.15 by leap, then it should be €2.15 by cash.

And the only people that should be shot out a canon are the ones that think cashless is the way forward. But that is for another thread perhaps!

Stephen15 · 03-12-2018 9:20am

prinzeugen wrote: »

What if you only use the bus once or twice a week? Why must I buy a leap card?

And it was on the BBC watchdog that you cannot be charged a premium for using a certain payment method.

Ie if its €2.15 by leap, then it should be €2.15 by cash.

And the only people that should be shot out a canon are the ones that think cashless is the way forward. But that is for another thread perhaps!

Once or twice a week is more than enough to warrant obtaining a Leap card I have similar usage patterns myself and I have one.

That sounds like it opens a can worms to me what about train companies in the UK charging less for online booking than walk up fares. How would you manage when the buses go cashless or how would you manage on TFL buses which are cashless.

Qrt · 03-12-2018 12:08pm

prinzeugen wrote: »

What if you only use the bus once or twice a week? Why must I buy a leap card?

To stop annoying everyone else.

Dravokivich · 03-12-2018 2:01pm

prinzeugen wrote: »

What if you only use the bus once or twice a week? Why must I buy a leap card?

And it was on the BBC watchdog that you cannot be charged a premium for using a certain payment method.

Ie if its €2.15 by leap, then it should be €2.15 by cash.

And the only people that should be shot out a canon are the ones that think cashless is the way forward. But that is for another thread perhaps!

I think that refers to a transaction with Cash or Credit/Debit Card. Not exactly with a Leap Card. Its a "promotional discount" for use of the service.

I haven't seen it, but i'd expect the issue they might have been pursuing was the practise of applying surcharges to customers making card transactions.

goingnowhere · 03-12-2018 2:19pm

Leap is not a financial product, it is not subject to regulation by the Central Bank, it is not a financial instrument.

ohnonotgmail · 03-12-2018 2:43pm

prinzeugen wrote: »

What if you only use the bus once or twice a week? Why must I buy a leap card?

And it was on the BBC watchdog that you cannot be charged a premium for using a certain payment method.

Ie if its €2.15 by leap, then it should be €2.15 by cash.

And the only people that should be shot out a canon are the ones that think cashless is the way forward. But that is for another thread perhaps!

you are not being charged a premium for using a certain payment method. You are getting a discount for using Leap.

Captain Chaos · 03-12-2018 2:46pm

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

you are not being charged a premium for using a certain payment method. You are getting a discount for using Leap.

Like buying Motor tax for 12 months at a time is cheaper than 3 or 6 months.

edunne2010 · 04-12-2018 3:17pm

Use LEAPCARD to save money, also registered your card and enable auto top-up or use the leap app on the android phone to top-up.

bk · 04-12-2018 5:49pm

prinzeugen wrote: »

What if you only use the bus once or twice a week? Why must I buy a leap card?

Before they get rid of cash, they will first introduce contactless payments via debit cards and smartphones/watches (e.g. Apple Pay, Google Pay, etc.).

So no need for a Leap card then.

This is what has happened on London Bus, no cash anymore and it works extremely well.

bk · 04-12-2018 5:52pm

uptherebels wrote: »

In cork it's the same. It takes alot longer for the machine to read cards than it does for me to hand a driver coins and he pushes a button.

Actually the ticket machines are even slower in Cork, which is pretty shocking, as DB machines aren't exactly fast (and they are also the same machine). I don't understand why they are so slow in Cork.

Dublin also has the advantage of the right hand validator, which is very fast and is what most people use.

It is crazy that Cork doesn't have the right hand validator, given that most routes in Cork are fundamentally a flat fare already.

Rumour has it the that right hand validators will come to Cork next year, hopefully that will sort the issues there then.

Stephen15 · 04-12-2018 5:56pm

bk wrote: »

Actually the ticket machines are even slower in Cork, which is pretty shocking, as DB machines aren't exactly fast (and they are also the same machine). I don't understand why they are so slow in Cork.

Dublin also has the advantage of the right hand validator, which is very fast and is what most people use.

It is crazy that Cork doesn't have the right hand validator, given that most routes in Cork are fundamentally a flat fare already.

Rumour has it the that right hand validators will come to Cork next year, hopefully that will sort the issues there then.

Also why do drivers in Cork still give change I'd imagine that slows things down a lot aswell and are there no tougher areas in Cork where drivers may get robbed?

punisher5112 · 04-12-2018 6:08pm

The validator at the door is so wrong.

It should be following the tfi route and have all cards, tickets etc use the machine where the driver can actually see you scan.

The SG model it's so far back the person is up the stairs before you can tell if it was then or the person ahead or behind that didn't scan, pretended to scan or just doesn't have any credit.

This happens regularly and very much so with school kids as they all push on. Foreign exchange students would then be next on the list and quite a few adults at it also.

Another issue I'm seeing more is people hoping on through centre doors and pretend they don't hear the driver.

cdaly_ · 04-12-2018 6:24pm

Stephen15 wrote: »

I would favour a flat fare over a tag on/off system. Having a 1-3 stage journey is a bit daft if you ask me as it only encourages people to do small trips which in many cases could and should be done on bike or by foot. Older and disabled people unable to walk would likely have an FTP.

The alternative to encouraging small trips is that people default to taking the car which is environmentally damaging, adds congestion and discourages bus use.

Stephen15 · 04-12-2018 6:31pm

cdaly_ wrote: »

The alternative to encouraging small trips is that people default to taking the car which is environmentally damaging, adds congestion and discourages bus use.

People should encouraged to take trips by sustainable methods which includes walking and cycling aswell as public transport. I find in Ireland there is a bit of pheonomenon of driving or taking the bus for trip which can easily be done on foot.

Stephen15 · 04-12-2018 7:06pm

punisher5112 wrote: »

The validator at the door is so wrong.

It should be following the tfi route and have all cards, tickets etc use the machine where the driver can actually see you scan.

The SG model it's so far back the person is up the stairs before you can tell if it was then or the person ahead or behind that didn't scan, pretended to scan or just doesn't have any credit.

This happens regularly and very much so with school kids as they all push on. Foreign exchange students would then be next on the list and quite a few adults at it also.

Another issue I'm seeing more is people hoping on through centre doors and pretend they don't hear the driver.

If the buses were cashless and there was a flat fare as in London then maybe that would work but not right now as then Leap users travelling beyond 13 stages would have to squish past oŕ wait for people paying cash or Leap users doing 1-13 stage transactions.

I find the wide entrance on the SG a big improvement on other types of buses as on AV/Xs, VTs, EVs, RVs etc. there was a narrow entrance/exit meaning people with Leap cards or T90s back in the day would have to wait until the person interacting with driver was finished their transaction in order to board and the person with the driver was blocking the right hand reader. Nowadays on SGs two queues can form one for those paying at the driver and the other for those using the right hand reader.

Although the best system is on the continent with no zero driver interaction as validation is done as the bus in motion taking all revenue protection official or unofficial out of the drivers hand into the hands of regular dedicated ticket checkers.

bk · 04-12-2018 7:17pm

cdaly_ wrote: »

The alternative to encouraging small trips is that people default to taking the car which is environmentally damaging, adds congestion and discourages bus use.

What folks are calling a short fare here, is basically the equivalent of a 10 minute walk.

Stephen15 · 04-12-2018 7:25pm

bk wrote: »

What folks are calling a short fare here, is basically the equivalent of a 10 minute walk.

Exactly I can't why older or disabled people might use a bus for these types of trips who have a pass anyway and can use the right hand validator. One example Ile use is I see people getting on the bus on York Road to travel to Dun Laoghaire which is about a 10 minute walk.

punisher5112 · 04-12-2018 7:32pm

Stephen15 wrote: »

If the buses were cashless and there was a flat fare as in London then maybe that would work but not right now as then Leap users travelling beyond 13 stages would have to squish past oŕ wait for people paying cash or Leap users doing 1-13 stage transactions.

I find the wide entrance on the SG a big improvement on other types of buses as on AV/Xs, VTs, EVs, RVs etc. there was a narrow entrance/exit meaning people with Leap cards or T90s back in the day would have to wait until the person interacting with driver was finished their transaction in order to board and the person with the driver was blocking the right hand reader. Nowadays on SGs two queues can form one for those paying at the driver and the other for those using the right hand reader.

Although the best system is on the continent with no zero driver interaction as validation is done as the bus in motion taking all revenue protection official or unofficial out of the drivers hand into the hands of regular dedicated ticket checkers.

This option I'm talking of is for when the fares are sorted.

It needs to be you can't just walk by the driver.

devnull · 04-12-2018 7:37pm

punisher5112 wrote: »

This option I'm talking of is for when the fares are sorted.

It needs to be you can't just walk by the driver.

Dublin Bus dwell times are already abysmal, making everyone use one queue instead of two and interacting with the driver is going to make them so bad you will just end up driving people back to their car, which will do the bus drivers stock no good when they next put a pay claim in.

I understand why you have your idea and where drivers would come from with it but ultimately if such thing would come to pass it would have too great effect on the bus passengers on what is after all, a public service.

punisher5112 · 04-12-2018 7:41pm

devnull wrote: »

Dublin Bus dwell times are already abysmal, making everyone use one queue instead of two and interacting with the driver is going to make them so bad you will just end up driving people back to their car, which will do the bus drivers stock no good when they next put a pay claim in.

I understand why you have your idea and where drivers would come from with it but ultimately if such thing would come to pass it would have too great effect on the bus passengers on what is after all, a public service.

How though it works in London.

Why we couldn't follow same model and actually work it much better.

Things as they are are way too slow.

Sure with the increase and decrease I'm having loads giving out to me and the way they speak is shocking.

It's 10 cent get over yourselves....

devnull · 04-12-2018 7:54pm

punisher5112 wrote: »

How though it works in London.

London has a completely different bus system though, a completely different fare system, a completely different revenue system, a fairly different operating environment, better technology and generally London bus is used for much shorter trips on average than a bus passenger in Dublin because of the coverage of a widespread train, tram, underground and DLR network.

Things as they are are way too slow.

That I think we will both agree on, the thing is though there are no real quick perfect fixes to the current problems because any of the solutions would involve revenue risk, large operational change, fare systems where some people are going to lose out heavily which will be politically unacceptable, widespread re-training of staff, massive infrastructure costs, the list goes on and on sadly.

That being said it's clear that the lack of inspectors for Dublin Bus is laughable. The idea that they don't need any more because almost nobody is evading fares, which is often the line trotted out about Irish Rail is also highly amusing. We both know, whilst evasion is not as bad as it was a few years ago due to the student loophole being closed, there is still a fair amount of it going on and the lack of inspectors just encourages it because the chance of getting caught is almost zero and even if you do you'll still save money.

Sure with the increase and decrease I'm having loads giving out to me and the way they speak is shocking. It's 10 cent get over yourselves....

Seen it myself pretty much every fare switch-over, do feel sorry for you guys when someone goes on a rant about how much of a disgrace it is and has an argument with a driver holding everyone up.

bk · 04-12-2018 8:17pm

Stephen15 wrote: »

Exactly I can't why older or disabled people might use a bus for these types of trips who have a pass anyway and can use the right hand validator. One example Ile use is I see people getting on the bus on York Road to travel to Dun Laoghaire which is about a 10 minute walk.

I suspect they are doing this to avoid too many complaints in the media from getting rid of the short fare. It would be a big jump from the short fare (1.55) to the likely new flat 90 minute fare of €2.30 or 2.40.

Hopefully it will be around for just a few years, until people get use to the flat fare and they will then gradually do away with it by increasing it each year until it matches the flat fare.

Devnull's idea of tagging-off to get the short fare is a very nice idea, I like it, but I suspect it won't be implemented that way, probably will need to do driver interaction to get the short fare unfortunately.

Tagging-off would require an extra tag-off validator at the rear doors and risks people tagging-off early to get the short fare.

devnull · 04-12-2018 8:23pm

bk wrote: »

Devnull's idea of tagging-off to get the short fare is a very nice idea, I like it, but I suspect it won't be implemented that way, probably will need to do driver interaction to get the short fare unfortunately.

Tagging-off would require an extra tag-off validator at the rear doors and risks people tagging-off early to get the short fare.

No reason you can't use the same validator, they can certainly be programmed to do that, the same hardware has done similar things in other cities with the relevant programming, so there's not going to be anything other than very minor expense.

I'd force them through the front door since it acts as part of a deterrent - I know it's not ideal but is there really a better solution? As I said before, no solution is perfect, there's always going to have to be a trade-off to some degree sooner or later. Middle door would be abused as you say.

bk · 04-12-2018 8:44pm

devnull wrote: »

No reason you can't use the same validator, they can certainly be programmed to do that, the same hardware has done similar things in other cities with the relevant programming, so there's not going to be anything other than very minor expense.

I'd force them through the front door since it acts as part of a deterrent - I know it's not ideal but is there really a better solution? As I said before, no solution is perfect, there's always going to have to be a trade-off to some degree sooner or later. Middle door would be abused as you say.

I know you could use the same hardware. But I disagree with forcing them through the front door. It defeats the whole purpose of having the middle door, trying to improve passenger flow and would just slow things down and cause confusion IMO.

I wonder how they enforce the tag-off at the middle doors in Amsterdam? That is a similar tag-off at middle door model. I assume it just comes down to ticket inspectors.

Really that is the solution to this whole mess. Adequate numbers of, no messing ticket inspectors and high on the spot fines like you get in Europe.

You are right, I don't have a better solution.

Perhaps go all in on the London Bus model. €1.70 across the board flat fare + higher subsidy, tag-on by the driver, just exit via middle door.

Of course it would need a much higher government subsidy to make up for the much lower fare. But could be worth it if it drives lots of more people out of their cars and onto buses.

A nice simple, easy to understand model, which would work well with the type of buses and number of doors we have. The need for more subsidy is the only downside really.

Instead I suspect we will just require driver interaction for the short fare and increase the price each year until it eventually goes away.

Not ideal, but most people will be flying by on the right hand validator and getting rid of cash would be a big win too.

Of course my ideal would be triple door buses, entry/exit through any door, zero driver interaction with lots of ticket inspectors. The Luas/European model. But that would require radical change. New fleet of buses etc. Probably cheaper just to subsidise the London Bus model.

DB fare increase

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