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Ladies only Gyms... a sexism uturn, or a refuge?

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    #122
    ash23
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,791 ✭✭✭ash23


    CiaranC wrote: »
    I really dont understand this. What difference does it make if its men or women who are looking at you? Do you think men are judging you by your body but women arent? Why would this be the case?

    I got a bit fat a few months back, I got a bit self concious at the beach with the old rubber tyre on display. I dont remember thinking "I wish it was all blokes here", it never occurred to me. I think there is more in the psychology of this than is being stated. Its like women think if they go to an all womens gym men wont find out that they are fat or something and they can sort it out before men find out. Bizarre.

    Men have modesty issues too. Would you want to go for a prostate checkup and discover your doctor was a really hot female? If you fell flat on your face would you be more embarrassed if a gang of hot girls saw you or a gang of blokes? Either way you'd be embarrassed but somehow it's more embarrassing to make a show of yourself in front of a group of people you may or may not want to shag.
    I don't know why but there it is.


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    #123
    CiaranC
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,300 ✭✭✭CiaranC


    ash23 wrote: »
    Men have modesty issues too. Would you want to go for a prostate checkup and discover your doctor was a really hot female? If you fell flat on your face would you be more embarrassed if a gang of hot girls saw you or a gang of blokes? Either way you'd be embarrassed but somehow it's more embarrassing to make a show of yourself in front of a group of people you may or may not want to shag.
    I don't know why but there it is.
    So its more embarrassing if the person looking is attractive!? I have more to be worried about at a prostate exam than the sex of the doctor, its not 1950. A gang of blokes would be more likely to take the mickey if I fell over in front of them, surely that would be more embarrassing?

    I dont see it sorry, I find this outlook really bizarre. Is it a country or religious thing? Do other men get this?

    At the risk of offending, I find this a little bit childish. (We are talking about adults, I can maybe see it with adolescents)


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    #124
    stovelid
    Closed Accounts Posts: 27,252 ✭✭✭✭stovelid


    ash23 wrote: »
    There's male only slimming classes for this very reason.
    They're very common.

    That's good and fair enough but it's not really the male-only or female-only business model that I object to: just a (hypothetical) situation where business space is segregated in a way that favours one section of paying customers over another.

    Perhaps a premium rate should be applied to female members in return for additional gym space.

    And the notion that all overwight women are cowering in the corner of the gym under the licentiious gaze of predatory males but overweight men just stoll in and start working out confidently buff men and women is a little one-sided.


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    #125
    Ickle Magoo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,485 ✭✭✭✭Ickle Magoo


    Who's notion is that tho, stovey? No-ones here certainly.

    Presumably mixed-gyms haven't just thrown out a women's-only section for the sheer hell of it, I'm assuming it's being done due to a demand within their own gym which has put them in direct competition with a local women's only gym and they'd rather address that demand than lose the custom altogether...?


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    #126
    ash23
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,791 ✭✭✭ash23


    CiaranC wrote: »
    So its more embarrassing if the person looking is attractive!? I have more to be worried about at a prostate exam than the sex of the doctor, its not 1950. A gang of blokes would be more likely to take the mickey if I fell over in front of them, surely that would be more embarrassing?

    I dont see it sorry, I find this outlook really bizarre. Is it a country or religious thing? Do other men get this?

    At the risk of offending, I find this a little bit childish. (We are talking about adults, I can maybe see it with adolescents)

    Well everyone is different and I've already explained why I feel that way. You don't and that's fair enough. I'm not childish, country or religious. I'm self concious and feel more comfortable in front of people like me. And the likes of curves are aimed towards beginners in terms of fitness whereas I feel gyms are more geared towards fitter people.

    stovelid wrote:
    That's good and fair enough but it's not really the male-only or female-only business model that I object to: just a (hypothetical) situation where business space is segregated in a way that favours one section of paying customers over another.

    Perhaps a premium rate should be applied to female members in return for additional gym space.

    And the notion that all overwight women are cowering in the corner of the gym under the licentiious gaze of predatory males but overweight men just stoll in and start working out confidently buff men and women is a little one-sided.

    I'm more referring to specific women only gyms but I can see why if sections of the gym or specific times were blocked for male members why they would feel cheated by it.

    I don't believe I said that overweight women are cowering under the gaze of predatory males or anything like that.
    I actually think a "beginners" gym would be better than a "womens only" gym. I wouldn't mind working out in front of men who were as unfit as me. But I find it more intimidating working out in front of fit men than fit women. I'm more self concious about how I look in front of men. So what?
    I know I also wouldn't be comfortable joining a well established running group unless it was a beginners thing. I am self concious about my weight and my lack of fitness and I don't want to feel worse by attending a gym where I am clearly the fattest, unfittest member. I feel that gyms like curves are more geared towards beginners as stated in my last post. It's more for people looking to lose weight than to get a 6 pack.
    I'm actually surprised there aren't gyms like that for men to be honest.


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    #127
    stovelid
    Closed Accounts Posts: 27,252 ✭✭✭✭stovelid


    Ickle Magoo wrote: »
    Who's notion is that tho, stovey? No-ones here certainly.

    Presumably mixed-gyms haven't just thrown out a women's-only section for the sheer hell of it, I'm assuming it's being done due to a demand within their own gym which has put them in direct competition with a local women's only gym and they'd rather address that demand than lose the custom altogether...?

    Of course, Ickle. Wasn't having a go at psoters here. Just the fact that female-only space even exists in some gyms is an expression of the notion?

    The business model argument is valid but a tiny bit of a red herring. It would make financial sense for a golf club not to allow female members if enough existing male members didn't want females in there.

    I'm not saying I'm immune to the plight of anybody who feels self-conscious about working out in front of the opposite sex and obviously it's a complete no-no to create an environment of unease in gyms but I'm just saying I'd probably just want to be in a gym where I got the same facilities as other members, regardless of gender, and anybody who deliberately made other members uncomfortable was expelled.

    Actually, the point of single-sex gyms is a valid one and possibly a good business model but I assume gyms are wary of falling foul of public sentiment like Portmarnock Golf Club or wherever it was.


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    #128
    ash23
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,791 ✭✭✭ash23


    stovelid wrote: »
    OJust the fact that female-only space even exists in some gyms is an expression of the notion?

    Surely it's the same as having male/female changing rooms or toilets though? We don't have separate toilets for fear of a man accosting us in the loos or peer in at us changing. It's just for modesty and comfort.

    I know there are unisex toilets and changing rooms but majority stick with the tried and tested male/female for a reason.


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    #129
    rich.d.berry
    Registered Users Posts: 517 ✭✭✭rich.d.berry


    Ickle Magoo wrote: »
    Who's notion is that tho, stovey? No-ones here certainly.

    Presumably mixed-gyms haven't just thrown out a women's-only section for the sheer hell of it, I'm assuming it's being done due to a demand within their own gym which has put them in direct competition with a local women's only gym and they'd rather address that demand than lose the custom altogether...?

    Now that is where I would take issue. If I was paying the same membership rate that I'd been paying all along and then an area is then segregated for the exclusive use of women with no discount being offered to me then I would make my displeasure known to the management. Even if they offered a similarly equipped men's section I would still be unhappy because they have reduced my options. Not only will there be less space but my access to equipment will be reduced and congestion and waiting for free equipment will increase.

    The gym would lose me as a customer if they did this.


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    #130
    Ickle Magoo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,485 ✭✭✭✭Ickle Magoo


    stovelid wrote: »
    Wasn't having a go at psoters here. The fact that female-only space exists in some gyms is an expression of the notion?

    I think it's more likely to be an expression of lack of demand by men, wouldn't it? It's usually businesses following the demands of their customers...rather than deliberately catering for the demands of one sector and ignoring the demands of another - doesn't strike me as very logical/sensible to approach business, anyway...
    stovelid wrote: »
    The business model argument is valid but a tiny bit of a red herring. It would make financial sense for a golf club not to allow female member if enough existing male members didn't want females in there.

    It's not really - as I said earlier, legally there has to be reasonable justification for wanting segregation, or for demanding somewhere becomes mixed for that matter...there is clearly justification for men and women's changing rooms, men and women's toilets, I presume tight clothing and getting sweaty jiggling about the place in combination with some of the behaviours/attitudes (some displayed here) provided ample justification that "not wanting" women on a golf course couldn't?
    stovelid wrote: »
    I'm not saying I'm immune to the plight of anybody who feels self-conscious about working out in front of the opposite sex and obviously it's a complete no-no to create an environment of unease in gyms but I'm just saying I'd probably just want to be in a gym where I got the same facilities as other members, regardless of gender, and anybody who deliberately made other members uncomfortable was expelled.

    I'd agree with that - but I'd also be aware that it's not easy to prove that particular members are making other people feel uncomfortable to the point they can be expelled and when trying to be competitive; demanding customers either put up with being uncomfortable or have to make complaint when an alternative is readily available across the road, as it were, just doesn't make good business sense. I suspect it may come down to the volume of business they would lose by not providing a x-only section on demand Vs the volume they would lose by those who objected to an x-only section being provided on demand...


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    #131
    stovelid
    Closed Accounts Posts: 27,252 ✭✭✭✭stovelid


    Ickle Magoo wrote: »

    It's not really - as I said earlier, legally there has to be reasonable justification for wanting segregation, or for demanding somewhere becomes mixed for that matter...there is clearly justification for men and women's changing rooms, men and women's toilets, I presume tight clothing and getting sweaty jiggling about the place in combination with some of the behaviours/attitudes (some displayed here) provided ample justification that "not wanting" women on a golf course couldn't?
    ..

    I'm still not sure I see the "legal" comparison between being required to provide unisex toilet facilities and providing female space because of perceived ogling based on personal testimony. Would that mean if I caught a woman looking at my arse in the gym, I could take the owner to court for not providing a male-only space for me to work out in?

    Anyway, my only point was that the gym can have all the female space they want - indeed, they can have female-only gyms too - but I'm not going to pay the same gym membership as women to have access to less gym facilities and while I don't care about it enough to raise much stink, I would certainly cancel my membership and find another gym.


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    #132
    ash23
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,791 ✭✭✭ash23


    stovelid wrote: »
    I'm still not sure I see the "legal" comparison between being required to provide unisex toilet facilities and providing female space because of perceived ogling based on personal testimony. Would that mean if I caught a woman looking at my arse in the gym, I could take the owner to court for not providing a male-only space for me to work out in?

    Anyway, my only point was that the gym can have all the female space they want - indeed, they can have female-only gyms too - but I'm not going to pay the same gym membership as women to have access to less gym facilities and while I don't care about it enough to raise much stink, I would certainly cancel my membership and find another gym.

    Has anyone ever actually taken a case against a single sex gym though?

    Is it maybe just a case that women are being more pro-active and taking legal action against golf clubs and men are not doing the same?


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    #133
    Ickle Magoo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,485 ✭✭✭✭Ickle Magoo


    stovelid wrote: »
    I'm still not sure I see "legal" comparison of being required to provide unisex toilet facilities and providing female space because of perceived ogling. Would that mean if I caught a woman looking at my arse in the gym, I could take the owner to court for not providing a male-only space for me to work out in?

    It's not so much required to provide unisex toileting Vs female spaces as their existence in terms of granting business licence or general legality depends on the same ability to make reasonable justification why they should/shouldn't exist. As in, there is currently no legal restrictions to you demanding that your local gym provide a male-only section because you perceive your arse being ogled, nor indeed why you can't set up a male-only gym...
    stovelid wrote: »
    Anyway, my only point was that the gym can have all the female space they want - indeed, they can have female-only gyms too - but I'm not going to pay the same gym membership as women to have access to less gym facilities and while I don't care about it enough to raise much stink, I would certainly cancel my membership and find another gym.

    Entirely your prerogative - of course, when the gym membership goes up anyway because a % of the patronage has abandoned the gym altogether precisely because the gym cannot/will not compete with the facilities offered elsewhere then you'll be on the look-out for yet another gym...but that's economics for ye! :p


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    #134
    stovelid
    Closed Accounts Posts: 27,252 ✭✭✭✭stovelid


    Ickle Magoo wrote: »
    It's not so much required to provide unisex toileting Vs female spaces as their existence in terms of granting business licence or general legality depends on the same ability to make reasonable justification why they should/shouldn't exist

    Then I would say that the 'reasonable justification' of perceived ogling backed by personal testimony would probably have as flimsy a legal basis as male-only clubs.


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    #135
    hollypink
    Registered Users Posts: 1,508 ✭✭✭hollypink


    ash23 wrote: »
    Has anyone ever actually taken a case against a single sex gym though?

    Is it maybe just a case that women are being more pro-active and taking legal action against golf clubs and men are not doing the same?

    Well it was the equality authority that took the case against Portmarnock golf club and the club won in the end. And based on the ruling, it doesn't seem like anyone would have a case against a single sex gym:

    http://www.rte.ie/news/2009/1103/portmarnock.html
    The Supreme Court has ruled that Portmarnock Golf Club can continue to exclude women as full members because it is exempted under equal status legislation.

    The court, by a majority of three to two, upheld a decision by the High Court four years ago and dismissed an appeal by the Equality Authority.

    This ruling centred on how a section of the Equal Status Act should be interpreted.

    In 2005, the High Court overturned a District Court decision and ruled that Portmarnock was not a discriminating club because its principal purpose was to cater only for the needs of a particular gender, an exemption allowed under the legislation.

    Also in that piece though, I see this quote:
    Joanna McMinn of the Equality Rights Alliance said the law needed to be changed and the decision was a bad day for equality and a bad day for women.

    That makes me uneasy; you would have to wonder whether she would think the opening of women-only gyms was also a bad day for equality and for women.

    I understand the self-consciousness that causes women to choose women-only gyms or areas in gyms; I'm self-conscious about my own body sometimes. However I just wonder if we are not trying to have our cake and eat it with this one?


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    #136
    ash23
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,791 ✭✭✭ash23


    I guess it opens a whole other can of worms though if men only golf clubs and womens only gyms are disallowed.
    What happens then to single sex schools or ladies day at the races? There are so many segregations based on sex in every day life (toilets, changing rooms, slimming classes, schools, social events and clubs, sports teams). The list in endless really.


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    #137
    Ickle Magoo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,485 ✭✭✭✭Ickle Magoo


    stovelid wrote: »
    Then I would say that the 'reasonable justification' of perceived ogling backed by personal testimony would probably have as flimsy a legal basis as male-only clubs.

    I disagree and I don't think instantly dismissing an issue exists or deciding unilaterally that it shouldn't be an issue is ever going to resolve them. There are all manner of gender specific groups whose attendees could be accused of only perceiving their particular issue and basing their needs on personal testimony - it wouldn't make their personal complaints/issues any less valid...nor is it evidence that any issue is imagined.

    Anyway, as PGC won the right to remain men-only, it clearly isn't a flimsy legal basis, is it. :confused:

    ETA

    Thanks for the links hollypink, I just assumed by the manner in which PGC was being bandied about, they'd been forced to allow women in...
    hollypink wrote: »
    However I just wonder if we are not trying to have our cake and eat it with this one?

    Not sure who "we" is here - I have no issue with PGC remaining men-only...


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    #138
    Feisar
    Registered Users Posts: 6,610 ✭✭✭Feisar


    southsiderosie wrote: »
    If I owned a business where a huge potential pool of customers were put off by the gender dynamics of the gym, I would look to accomodate those fears, and offer classes/exercise space accordingly.

    In one example, a friend of mine who is a personal trainer noticed that many of her male clients were interested in increasing their power and flexibility, but were wary of taking some of the yoga and fitness classes, which they saw as 'for girls'. So she started a class and re-branded it with some kind of raging, Rambo name, and men showed up in droves - even though she did the same kind of exercises she offered in the female-dominated classes.

    Women-only gyms aren't about discrimination; they are about understanding gender dynamics around exercise and expanding market share.

    Nivea Moisturizer - FOR MEN!!!

    First they came for the socialists...



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    #139
    stovelid
    Closed Accounts Posts: 27,252 ✭✭✭✭stovelid


    Ickle Magoo wrote: »

    Entirely your prerogative - of course, when the gym membership goes up anyway because a % of the patronage has abandoned the gym altogether precisely because the gym cannot/will not compete with the facilities offered elsewhere then you'll be on the look-out for yet another gym...but that's economics for ye! :p

    Maybe the price will go up in the initial gym because of 'male-flight' :)


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    #140
    hollypink
    Registered Users Posts: 1,508 ✭✭✭hollypink


    Ickle Magoo wrote: »
    Not sure who "we" is here - I have no issue with PGC remaining men-only...

    I don't have any issue with PGC being men-only either but then I'm not interested in golf. But maybe if it had a facility that you'd like to use? If a new aquatic centre opened down the road from me that had a 50m swimming pool, and it was men-only, I think I would feel it was unfair, even though it would be perfectly legal.


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    #141
    Fear Uladh
    Closed Accounts Posts: 810 ✭✭✭Fear Uladh


    Amazing that some of the same posters that condemned segregation of toys in Smyths are defending women only areas and gyms.


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    #142
    Babybuff
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,118 ✭✭✭Babybuff


    Fear Uladh wrote: »
    Amazing that some of the same posters that condemned segregation of toys in Smyths are defending women only areas and gyms.

    The idea that girls and boys should play with specific toys is not the same as designating separate spaces for them to play with them in. It's not excluding men from attending gyms or from performing the same exercises.
    If women were prohibited from playing a particular sport because it was deemed mens sport only that would be sexist. Equally if women prohibited men from performing exercises that they deemed inappropriate for males that would be sexist. Neither of these apply here.


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    #143
    InTheTrees
    Registered Users Posts: 9,900 ✭✭✭InTheTrees


    Sharrow wrote: »
    People who sign a contract and stop going and still have to pay are the management's ideal customers.

    I used to believe this until I heard from some gym owners on another forum.

    In reality gym owners most cherish their long term every day members. Those are the people who show their approval, make constructive comments, reccomend the place to their friends, and above all sign up again year after year.

    While the January "resolutioners" require considerable advertising and personnel effort (selling the gym, conducting tours etc etc) year after year.

    Just a little factoid I thought I'd share.


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    #144
    InTheTrees
    Registered Users Posts: 9,900 ✭✭✭InTheTrees


    Some of the attitudes in this thread are incredibly immature.

    They remind me of white males proclaiming the absence of racism in the world because there arent any derogatory terms for white males...

    Just because you're a man who goes to a gym and isnt having to fend off random men from hitting on you doesnt mean it doesnt happen to women.

    I mean you're surely aware that there's diffrences between men and women right? That men tend to be the ones making advances.

    Thats all.


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    #145
    Ickle Magoo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,485 ✭✭✭✭Ickle Magoo


    hollypink wrote: »
    I don't have any issue with PGC being men-only either but then I'm not interested in golf. But maybe if it had a facility that you'd like to use? If a new aquatic centre opened down the road from me that had a 50m swimming pool, and it was men-only, I think I would feel it was unfair, even though it would be perfectly legal.

    How likely is that to be an issue though? I would think it unfair if it was the only swimming pool in town, but again it would make poor business sense to open the only swimming pool or gym in a town and then immediately rule out half your potential customer base...


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    #146
    Bullseye1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,731 ✭✭✭Bullseye1


    Men and women should be allowed exclusive clubs/gyms or whatever other social outlet they might desire. But at the end of the day economics will be the deciding factor on whether they are viable.


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    #147
    Domitius Felix Invictus Aurelianus
    Closed Accounts Posts: 73 ✭✭Domitius Felix Invictus Aurelianus


    The only reason a woman would want a female only gym is because of her insecurity, for whatever reason that is, been stared at by another man or even women while working out most likely the obvious answer.

    The reason men want a male only golf club is as a refuge from women, most men in golf club are married, wealthy and need a few hours free from the engima of constant blabbering.


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    #148
    Lapsed Catholic
    Closed Accounts Posts: 146 ✭✭Lapsed Catholic


    InTheTrees wrote: »
    Some of the attitudes in this thread are incredibly immature.

    They remind me of white males proclaiming the absence of racism in the world because there arent any derogatory terms for white males...

    Just because you're a man who goes to a gym and isnt having to fend off random men from hitting on you doesnt mean it doesnt happen to women.

    I mean you're surely aware that there's diffrences between men and women right? That men tend to be the ones making advances.

    Thats all.

    None moreso than this


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    #149
    quietsailor
    Registered Users Posts: 1,428 ✭✭✭quietsailor


    Dudess wrote: »
    Yes there would be uproar from some women if there were a men only gym - although the reason for a women only gym is a request for it, not "misandry". :rolleyes:
    So why isn't there uproar over this from men? Oh yeah that's right - much easier to bitch and moan and blame "the" feminists. At least they actually get out there and complain if they've a gripe (even if I don't agree with them a lot of the time).
    There is of course also the victimhood of the white man to navel-gaze over - yeah sure, they're never presidents or prime ministers or powerful businessmen. :D
    Seriously though, men do face discrimination and sexism when it comes to certain aspects of life, but to maintain that they are in general a terribly downtrodden group, wake up.

    Sorry to drag up a post from much earlier in the thread but there is a thread over in the Greystones forum about a group of men setting up a MensSheds - they are being accused of neandrathalism and misogny.

    Look at the irony - On one thread we have people saying a specific gender should be allowed same sex activity as they feel more comfortable -- over on the other thread there are people saying that a same sex activity is wrong, should be banned, should not be given any encouragement.


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    #150
    Ickle Magoo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,485 ✭✭✭✭Ickle Magoo


    Read all about it! People of differing views and women don't have a hivemind shocker! :eek::eek::eek:


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    #151
    Bruce7
    Closed Accounts Posts: 500 ✭✭✭Bruce7


    Originally Posted by Dudess viewpost.gif Yes there would be uproar from some women if there were a men only gym



    I truly don't understand why

    So why isn't there uproar over this from men?



    Because men dont care if women have women only clubs. The mystery to me is why women care if men do.

    The men who are complaining about this must be trying to make a point, along the lines of, 'Look, we don't make a fuss when you form a Curves, or have a women only section in the gym to get away from us, so be nice and give us a break when we want to get away from you.'



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