Love/Hate (v2) [** Spoilers **]

I caught up on Season 4 last night and I wasn't overly impressed. I've loved 1-3 but this one didn't grab me much. Maybe it was the influx of new and, in my opinion, less interesting characters. Even Nidge and Fran weren't impressive. Season 4 seemed to be more plot-driven, like the big drug haul, as opposed to character-driven.

What was that weird Nidge bit at the end about?

Muff Richardson wrote: »

it was the actor, producer, director and writer and their inflated egos getting way out of their depth with some self-gratifying artistic **** which was intended to blow their audience away but just looked f*ckin stupid.

this where that tipp gunner lad steps in and says it was a brilliant and carefully choreographed scene vital to the plot which was thought through long before it was shot and clearly demonstrates the true genius of writer Carolan

Watched it again at the weekend and have to agree, it was out of character, ridiculous and another ill judged pander to style that lets the whole thing down again and again.

IamtheWalrus wrote: »

I knew things were going awry when there's been a bit too much of Nidge looking into the camera, making contact with the viewer. Reminded me of Hollyoaks gimmickry where a green graphic comes up when someone's reading a text so that the viewer can read it too.

Watching it again it's obvious that using the song came first and Nidge's character and motivation a sad second.

Deleted User wrote: »

Jesus you really are hopeless. Nidge has always had an antagonistic relationship with the Gardai and there has been loads of examples over the last 4 seasons. For example...

Season 1. He gives the guards the 2 fingered salute the day of his wedding and asks 'why 'arent they after those fúckers in the bank?'.

Season 3. He spat at at female gardai and He goes loco in the garda station laughing in thier face and behaving like a psychopath. Shouting down the garda station and how they are messing with Siobhans head. During the course of the season he referred to them as 'pricks getting overtime to harass us'. He is generally sarcastic when the gardai stop him on the road to check his licence etc. He was a bit more courteous toward them on Paddy's night as they were on the way up the mountains to bury Gits body so therefore didnt want to draw any attention to themselves as they needed to keep Darren informed.

Season 4. Ciaran mentioned that Nidge 'had a bad attitude to Gardaí, which we had already seen a few examples of to paint us that picture.

As suspected you aren't absorbing what you are reading, and it would help if you would try.
I said he had a normal relationship with the guards in a cop/robber context. ^^ That is usual behaviour between them and there is nothing constant in the series to suggest that getting at the guards was a primary motivation for Nidge, certainly not well enough drawn to end with a scene like that. That is the point.
Just because you retro project stuff doesn't mean they are there as primary motivations.
That is the point that is being made about the writing, it is all over the place and makes the characters conform to what it wants stylistically instead of the other way around. Soaps do that all the time, it is why they are generally thought of as inferior in writing terms to what this series pretends to be.
The droves of people now giving up on it shows those fault lines.

That last statement is hillarious coming from the likes of you. Its because of burgeoning vanity mixed with a dollop of stupidity that we have to try and re-explain these things to you albeit in vain.

Nidge had just escaped the prospect of doing a long stretch in prison and got away with it over the slightest most unprecedented issue - Tommy collapsing and being near death. The cops were faced with the moral dilemma of risking Tommy's health to bag Nidge and they decided to help Tommy.
So of course it makes perfect sense that Nidge is going to start get cocky and begin to believe he is invincible because he has come through the IRA affair and now this. That's what that final scene was all about. It sets the scene for next season where Nidge is dropping his guard just like all gangland bosses in real-life who dropped their guard and ended up being gunned down by the men they thought they could trust.

He is already proven to be disrespectful toward the gardai so he is going to annoy them more at any given opportunity and his display of lunacy in the prison cell is so he can argue 'guilty but insane' if he ever needs to and argue that the Gardai were harassing an unwell man. He might have no hope of making a case of insanity but he'll try it just for the sake of being a little b0llocks about things.


It really is that simple. I really dont get how people struggle with the plot. And if it goes over their head the once they have RTE 1 +1, the repeat the following week, RTE player, and probably the DVD too.

Its bizarre and pretty sad to say the least

We struggle because we don't defend it, that isn't our job as viewers.
You cannot say that in the space of one scene his 'paranoia' disappears to be replaced with feelings of 'invincibility', that is just nonsense and it is why so many have been on here and in other places saying that it is 'confusing' and 'disjointed'. That is not because we can't work out what is going on, we can, we just don't believe it in the context of the story we have been told up to this. That is how long it took btw to see the character change, one song and one scene. While none of the threats that he was paranoid about have disappeared? (source for this, a fella called Tipp Gunner on here telling us that the Tommy threat, the Fran threat, the IRA threat, the Lizzie threat, the Cops threat are all potential threads for the next series)

It was a ridiculous jump to ask any character to make and any viewer with an ounce of cop-on to accept, unless they are die hard fanboys/girls who will accept anything if it is accompanied by a stylish song or funny quip.

lufties wrote: »

i watched episode 1 and 2 of season 4 last night and I found them much better the second time around, S4 will be appreciated at the end of season 5 IMO. The pace being so slow is what makes it a bit disappointing though.

I think S4 and S5 are clearly meant to be taken together as a continuation. And S4 was a continuation of a lot of events from S3 too. I think S1 and S2 were also a continuation and S2 ended up concluding all the major storylines there. S3 started off the IRA storyline and all its direct and indirect consequences (this story and its offshoots such as Tommy's situation dominated S4 too) while it killed off Darren and all his stories.

S4 focused more on the cops of course and finished off some of the IRA stories. As a standalone, one is left wondering of course some of these issues:

-What was the Noelie Hughes issue about?
-Why was the 'Luke mark 2' prowler pestering the cop and his family?

The plot for S5 could go in a variety of ways. We assume because of the tabloids Nidge goes to Spain? I'd say Fran would become the Irish gang leader and perhaps Elmo will also have ambitions too. Nidge could play one off against the other from Spain? Fran will have to deal with Noelie (who Fran's other potential enemies could use for their purposes too). Tommy will either make a full recovery (hinted at that he will) or dies but either way, Nidge being the culprit is definitely going to come out. Nidge going to Spain could be for varied reasons: the cops, Fran/Tommy/Siobhan, other threats? The 'Luke mark 2' guy has to feature too I'm sure. And the pipe bomb traveller: his best option would be to try and get Fran and Nidge to eliminate each other. Although, it will be Nidge who eliminates the traveller somehow or maybe Fran?

Deleted User wrote: »

He has nothing to feel paranoid about any more. He was paranoid about the IRA having a hit out on him - this was shown to be not true and the person who was behind it was sorted. He was paranoid about the Gardaí- it was shown that his paranoia was justified and, once again, he gets to walk away. He has faced the majority of what made him paranoid and won.

You make no mention of Fran or Tommy (nobody knows what is going to happen there) and we haven't been told what has become of Lizzie, to all intents and purposes she is still out there and because she is renegade to the IRA operaton, still a threat, she was in his house with a machine gun ffs. Would you be sleeping soundly?
As to the gardai, Nidge has just discovered that his entire operation has been under surveillance and info he tried to thought was secret was available to the gardai (eg. the shipment movements that only he and the go between and the driver knew was on the move) and suddenly he is invincible....seriously?

Deleted User wrote: »

Lizzie is behind bars, but Nidge doesn't know that. Didn't Nidge get in contact with the IRA after this happened? So for all he knows, it is all taken care of. In fact, that's what the head-IRA guy said. The only other lose end after that was the kid who was with her, and he was taken care of. But the IRA told him it was a renegade action and for all he knows Lizzie is likely to be on bail and roaming about with the machine gun.

Fran - does he know he has to be paranoid about Fran? Fran had to be talked out of clipping Tommy, he bitterly attacked him about the shipment and has warned him several times, only a fool would be unconcerned about a possible threat from Fran, or writers with a laisse faire attitude to credible characterisation.

As for Tommy, he feels responsible for what happened. Plus would he have known Tommy had survived? Last Nidge saw, there was blood pumping out his nose and ears and he was pretty much out of it. He was about to drop Tommy in it on his own if things went pearshaped, he felt so 'responsible'. He needs an end to that and it hasn't happened yet.

And for the Gardaí - yes, he discovered all of this. But even with the surveillance, even with all the Gardaí had, Nidge still walks away free. By the skin of his teeth, it's implausible to suggest anything other than sheer relief, which we seen with Fran. Invincibility is a huge stretch imo and is why that final scene was ridiculous.

I've made my points - I can tell that you and other posters here are far too aggressive in discussing what is ultimately a TV show, so I can't really see the point in responding any more to something that won't be resolved.

The only 'aggression' you see from me and others is towards the people who think this is an intelligence issue and not a discussion about a tv programme. I suggest they get a life and a subscription to AH.

I have a feeling we will see a lot more of Lizzie and also Noelie Hughes too. Issues do not have to be totally resolved in a season (that's why there is a season 5 afterall).

The whole thing with Nidge thinking he is invincible is building up nicely to a climax. The fact that Nidge survived the John Boy v Fran feud, Dano/Lizzie and now the cops trap as well as being able to conceal his secrets that could turn Fran and Tommy against him show he is a survivor who could be complacent. Still, though, he knows there are constant threats and I'm pretty sure he is aware of these but it is the ones he least expects that could undo him. Some of the characters we thought we saw written out of the series only to see them emerge later include the pipe bomb traveller (appeared in a minor role in a series 2 episode), corrupt cop Martin (not seen in season 3 and last season in the John Boy/early Nidge days of season 2), and most notably of all Fran (one of the show's leading favourites: seemingly 'written out' in season 2 by going to prison).

I don't know how season 5 will pan out but it will have themes of Nidge v Fran (with Nidge trying to keep his secret quiet) and the traveller will be all important here. Tommy will either live (hinted at very much) or die but either way, Tommy and/or Siobhan will be seeking revenge against Nidge. On top of this, Nidge could come up against new enemies and even 'reliables' like Elmo and Ado could prove to move against him. The cops will not be giving up either.

My guess/wish is the series will perhaps see a few showdowns between some of the factions (Nidge v the travellers; Fran v Noelie) where some of the storylines are resolved. Nidge could then escape others (perhaps, an alliance of Fran, Tommy, Elmo and Ado - with maybe Tony using Fran instead of Nidge?) and head to Spain to lie low. End of series. Setting up the continuity Love/Hate movie featuring a Nidge v Fran showdown.

Merkin wrote: »

Binged on the Season 4 DVD boxset at the weekend. I absolutely loved it, I think the show goes from strength to strength although I thought the ending of Nidge going baloobas in the cell was wayyy too self conscious, a little egocentric of the writers and not in keeping with the show. However it's not a major gripe, I think L/H is the best thing ever made for Irish TV, just a shame that we have to wait so long for Season 5!

I am at present watching all four series bit by bit. Onto series 2 now and episode 5 where John Boy got killed. It is interesting how John Boy was killed off earlyish and how no one expected it. Also, interestingly how Nidge and Darren organised John Boy's death. Nidge met Fran as well in this episode and then Fran of course went to prison. But, we are not told that when Fran and Nidge met, that Fran was in on the act to kill John Boy too (I suspect he was and it was Nidge's way to cancel out his killing of Linda). Some interesting observations that relate to series 4 and 5:

-Fran was very very angry about what John Boy did to Linda (he clearly states he holds John Boy responsible although Nidge did it on JB's orders).
-Fran wants compensation from John Boy for Linda's death and is prepared to do a deal. He says this to Nidge, so I guess it is an option Nidge could use if his secret about killing Linda gets out next season! Of course, he was successful in arranging this kind of deal with Tony on two occasions.
-Martin the corrupt cop played a minor role in series 2 and 4. In both series, he seems to be regarded by the gang leaders (JB and Nidge) as useless. He seems in both to be in over his head and reluctant. Was it the gang have something on him or is it he initially was too fond of the backhanders? I hope he features in series 5 and we find out more about him. The main detective (Moynihan) in series 4 clearly stated that his father I think would be very disappointed in him.
-Nidge shows no signs of turning against John Boy at any time in the series but we know he ultimately was Fran's biggest ally against John Boy in the end. Series 3 and 4 saw a Nidge/Fran alliance that teetered on the brink of breaking down in series 4 but didn't as of yet.
-Series 2 sort of wrapped up theme 1 of Love/Hate which was the killing of Darren's brother and Darren's uneasy alliance with people associated with the man who did this act. Ultimately, Darren never liked John Boy and resented him for protecting Hughie. Other themes' seeds were planted: the era of King Nidge, the Fran/Nidge alliance and Nidge's darkest secret (pipebombing Fran and Linda's house and injuring Linda).
-Series 3 began the second major theme - Nidge's relations with the IRA. This ended (or so it seems) with series 4 episode 4 with the apparent death of Dano. Also, the Tommy situation.
Series 4 revived the themes of Nidge's secrets that he does not want Fran to know as well as continuing other themes from series 3 (Tommy, the IRA and so on).

Series 4 resolved the IRA business with Nidge and Tony meeting and doing a deal. Nidge is safe as long as he cuts Tony in on everything he does. Will the story continue with another twist or is it resolved is anyone's guess. Nidge clearly escaped the guns of the IRA with Tony and the guns of the IRA being his most essential ally in the end. It turned out Dano was riff raff the organisation did not need.

But, what about the other issues? Nidge also escaped the cops for now. Unlike Tony, he cannot do deals with them and I'm sure detective Moynihan will be more determined than ever next time around to nail Nidge. He also got away with the Tommy issue for now but is on very thin ice here. Will Tommy survive, make a full recovery and remember everything or will he die? However, Siobhan knows already that Nidge hit Tommy and is doing a deal with detective Moynihan, who is her biggest ally against a common enemy. Furthermore, Nidge does not know this. A huge threat for sure. And then there is Fran: he could find out about Linda (Nidge could give him compo money as demanded by Fran to Nidge to say to JB) and it would be up to Fran then what to do. The traveller of course is also a very visible threat and could arrange a hit on Nidge when he least expects it.

Keith Duffy's character will be interesting. There is a hint, akin to the dentist and the corrupt cop, that this gym owner is another who is going in deep over his head (there is a hint given his place could get raided and he ends up in deep shyt with Nidge) and is too greedy. Also, Noelie Hughes: what will he end up doing (my guess is teaming up with Nidge should Fran and Nidge fall out). And the 'Luke Mark 2' prowler who the cops beat up? Careful here that this stalker is not given the exact same story as 'Luke Mark 1' but an interesting side story could develop for this character.

lufties wrote: »

Hmmm..Court cases and jail? not sure how that will be received, season 4 was a disappointment over all imo. Hope S5 will be an improvement.

Obviously last series so needs to tie up loads of stories.