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Should Wexford Waterford line reopen?

13567

Comments

  • #102
    ohographite
    Registered Users Posts: 312 ✭✭ohographite


    Sam Russell wrote: »
    Your number is an estimate backed by nothing more than a few unfounded assumptions of your own. If you want the line reopened, then get some surveys done that back your estimates, and make sure they have some provenance that gives those surveys believable backing.
    Why are my assumptions unfounded?


  • #103
    ohographite
    Registered Users Posts: 312 ✭✭ohographite


    bk wrote: »
    Funny, that, I was just wondering, if the people who propose mad rural rail projects like this in Ireland and say things like rail will take people out of their cars, have ever actually frequently used rail in Ireland. In particular in rural areas. It ain't fun and it ain't particularly attractive.

    My estimates for the amount of people who would use the Waterford-Rosslare line if reopened are based entirely on the amount of people who already make other journeys by train, on other lines in the country.


  • #104
    ohographite
    Registered Users Posts: 312 ✭✭ohographite


    bk wrote: »
    I'd object to the basic assumption that people prefer rail over coaches and that rail necessarily attracts people out of their cars.

    The Dublin-Rosslare railway was used for over 1000 journeys a day before the lockdown started, even though Wexford Bus operate a parallel bus service which is faster, cheaper and more frequent. That is a reason why I think some people prefer the train to the bus.
    I think that some people are encouraged out of their cars by buses only, some people are encouraged out of their cars by trains only, some are encouraged out of their cars by both, and some are encouraged out of their cars by neither.


  • #105
    Larbre34
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,357 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34


    ohographite wrote: »
    The Dublin-Rosslare railway was used for over 1000 journeys a day before the lockdown started, even though Wexford Bus operate a parallel bus service which is faster, cheaper and more frequent. That is a reason why I think some people prefer the train to the bus.
    I think that some people are encouraged out of their cars by buses only, some people are encouraged out of their cars by trains only, some are encouraged out of their cars by both, and some are encouraged out of their cars by neither.

    They might, but if you're trying to say that a Waterford - Rosslare line would get 560 pax, when Wexford town to the Capital City gets 1,000, then you are simply spoofing out of yourself.


  • #106
    reddituser123
    Closed Accounts Posts: 15 ✭reddituser123


    Larbre34 wrote: »
    They might, but if you're trying to say that a Waterford - Rosslare line would get 560 pax, when Wexford town to the Capital City gets 1,000, then you are simply spoofing out of yourself.
    Public transport is an essential service, it does not have to be profitable.


  • #107
    ohographite
    Registered Users Posts: 312 ✭✭ohographite


    Larbre34 wrote: »
    They might, but if you're trying to say that a Waterford - Rosslare line would get 560 pax, when Wexford town to the Capital City gets 1,000, then you are simply spoofing out of yourself.

    I still don't think that's a too optimistic estimate when you consider the Waterford-Rosslare line could be used to make train journeys from Waterford to any of the towns on the Dublin-Rosslare line, or from any of the towns on the Dublin-Rosslare line to anywhere on the Dublin-Waterford line, or anywhere on the Limerick-Waterford line, or even from Dublin to the villages between Wexford and Waterford.


  • #108
    PhilOssophy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,114 ✭✭✭PhilOssophy


    reddituser123 wrote: »
    Ballybrophy line is for another thread. Same issue is happening, line and services are being run down, check out North Tipperary Community Rail Partnership, a group similar to South east on Track.

    As for your statements about buses, you, and most others on this thread, have an obsession with the idea that public transport has to be profitable. It is an essesntial service for people like me who haven't learned to drive yet, as well as people who cannot drive cars for various other reasons.

    How is something which should be the source of alarm bells for similar projects for another thread? Should we repeat the same mistakes?

    I can't believe that you and others can't make any justification of the numbers who will travel in this line. Also, I 100% agree that public transport doesn't have to be profitable. But I don't accept that a subvention of the region of the many of the loss making lines is an appropriate use of tax payers money, do you?


  • #109
    PhilOssophy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,114 ✭✭✭PhilOssophy


    ohographite wrote: »
    I still don't think that's a too optimistic estimate when you consider the Waterford-Rosslare line could be used to make train journeys from Waterford to any of the towns on the Dublin-Rosslare line, or from any of the towns on the Dublin-Rosslare line to anywhere on the Dublin-Waterford line, or anywhere on the Limerick-Waterford line, or even from Dublin to the villages between Wexford and Waterford.

    I think its not just optimistic. Its delusional.


  • #110
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    reddituser123 wrote: »
    Public transport is an essential service, it does not have to be profitable.

    If its using tax payer money, you have to be able to justify the spend

    There may be some justification to reopen this line.....eventually....but it its way, WAY behind a long list of other, more justifiable, rail projects

    If you take away the emotive argument, there is little to no strong argument for this project over the 10-20 ahead of it in the queue


  • #111
    reddituser123
    Closed Accounts Posts: 15 ✭reddituser123


    Deleted User wrote: »
    If its using tax payer money, you have to be able to justify the spend

    There may be some justification to reopen this line.....eventually....but it its way, WAY behind a long list of other, more justifiable, rail projects

    If you take away the emotive argument, there is little to no strong argument for this project over the 10-20 ahead of it in the queue
    Please read South East on Track's business case.


    Can someone link it for me,


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  • #112
    Harry Palmr
    Closed Accounts Posts: 40,061 ✭✭✭✭Harry Palmr


    reddituser123 wrote: »
    Please read South East on Track's business case.


    Can someone link it for me,

    Here you are pdf
    https://t.co/vRQKEHRdmG?amp=1


  • #113
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    reddituser123 wrote: »
    Please read South East on Track's business case.


    Can someone link it for me,

    I did, still not a strong enough justification to put it ahead of Dart+, Metro, etc.

    In fact, IE themselves have no intention of looking to get that line opened. Their priorities for the next decade are
    • 4 tracking Hazelhatch – Kildare and 3 tracking Kildare to Portarlington on Cork Line
    • 3 or 4 tracking north of Connolly to Malahide on Belfast Line
    • Double tracking sections of Intercity network to facilitate reliable services at increased frequencies, with second platforms at existing stations including:
    • Double tracking Portarlington – Athlone
    • Double tracking Maynooth – Mullingar / Longford
    • Double tracking Athenry – Oranmore – Galway
    • Dynamic passing Loops / additional platforms Limerick – Limerick Junction
    • Additional platform at Millstreet on Tralee Line
    • Additional platform at Woodlawn on Galway Line
    • Passing loop between Claremorris and Westport
    • Reconfiguration of Sligo station and passing loop at Ballymote
    • Passing loop at Sixmilebridge on Ennis line


  • #114
    Sam Russell
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,864 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    Deleted User wrote: »
    I did, still not a strong enough justification to put it ahead of Dart+, Metro, etc.

    In fact, IE themselves have no intention of looking to get that line opened. Their priorities for the next decade are
    • 4 tracking Hazelhatch – Kildare and 3 tracking Kildare to Portarlington on Cork Line
    • 3 or 4 tracking north of Connolly to Malahide on Belfast Line
    • Double tracking sections of Intercity network to facilitate reliable services at increased frequencies, with second platforms at existing stations including:
    • Double tracking Portarlington – Athlone
    • Double tracking Maynooth – Mullingar / Longford
    • Double tracking Athenry – Oranmore – Galway
    • Dynamic passing Loops / additional platforms Limerick – Limerick Junction
    • Additional platform at Millstreet on Tralee Line
    • Additional platform at Woodlawn on Galway Line
    • Passing loop between Claremorris and Westport
    • Reconfiguration of Sligo station and passing loop at Ballymote
    • Passing loop at Sixmilebridge on Ennis line

    Plus lots and lots of trains.

    There are not enough Dart trains for the current (pre-Covid) time table, with no spares. There are not enough Commuter trains for the Phoenix Park Tunnel to GCD service, and even that is a curtailed service. There is a lack of IC trains leaving 3 or 4 car services when they should be 8 car.


  • #115
    ohographite
    Registered Users Posts: 312 ✭✭ohographite


    PhilOssophy wrote: »
    I think its not just optimistic. Its delusional.

    I don't see why it is delusional. I explained in post #21 earlier in this thread how I arrived at my estimate.
    I will repost it here:

    I have estimated that the Rosslare-Waterford line would be used for 560 journeys a day, if reopened with the following:
    A train from Waterford that arrives at Wexford around 08:30(continuing to Dublin) and (coming from Dublin)departs Wexford for Waterford around 17:30
    A train from Wexford that arrives at Waterford at 8:30 and departs Waterford for Wexford around 17:30
    As well as those, 5 off-peak return trains from Dublin to Waterford via Wexford, with the ex Waterford ones departing Waterford just after either an arrival from Limerick Junction or an arrival from Dublin, and with the arrivals into Waterford arriving just before a departure for Limerick Junction or Dublin.

    This would produce a service that suits people living in Waterford and working in Wexford(and vice versa), and it would connect all the towns on the Dublin-Carlow-Waterford line with all the towns on the Dublin-Wicklow-Wexford line(the timetable in operation in 2010 did not allow this, since there was an Enniscorthy to Waterford train that departed Enniscorthy earlier in the day than any train from Dublin arrived, and that returned to Enniscorthy later in the day than any train to Dublin departed). It would also connect all the towns on the Waterford-Limerick line to all the towns on the Dublin-Wicklow-Wexford line.

    Below is an explanation of how I estimated 560 journeys a day:

    -Waterford-Wexford journeys: estimated 170 journeys a day(similar to the 2019 daily Waterford-Kilkenny journeys in the NTA Heavy Rail Census Report 2019)

    -Journeys from the villages on the Waterford-Rosslare line(Campile, Ballycullane, Wellingtonbridge, and Bridgetown) to Wexford and Dublin combined: 200 journeys a day(this comes from the 210 journeys a day to or from Ballymote in the NTA Heavy Rail Census Report 2019) I am comparing Ballymote to 4 villages in South Wexford, because Ballymote has a similar population to those 4 villages combined, so I think Ballymote-Sligo demand is similar to the demand from the 4 villages to Wexford town, and I think Ballymote-Dublin demand would equal the demand from the 4 villages to Dublin.

    -Journeys from/to Waterford to/from the towns on the Dublin-Wicklow-Wexford line(including Bray, Enniscorthy and all intermediate towns with stations): 120 journeys a day. This estimate admittedly has less of a basis than the previous ones. There was some report I read(I can't remember what year it was, 2015 I think) that showed that the amount of journeys on the Dublin-Carlow-Waterford line that were made from Dublin to Waterford(not including journeys that used an intermediate station) was, on average, 38 per train. That same year, the amount of boardings and alightings on trains to/from Dublin in Waterford was, on average, 60 per train. So if you subtract 38 from 60 you have 22. If you subtract 12(the per train average amount of Waterford-Kilkenny journeys) from 22, you get 10 per train. So the amount of journeys made to/from Waterford that involved neither Kilkenny nor Dublin was, on average, 10 per train.
    I am guessing that the amount of journeys made to/from Waterford from/to all the towns on the Dublin-Wicklow-Wexford line(including Bray, Enniscorthy and all the intermediate towns with stations) would also be, on average, 10 per train. The service I am suggesting in this post includes 6 trains from Waterford to all these towns, and 6 trains from them back to Waterford, so 12 in total, and 12 multiplied by 10 is 120, so that's how I arrived at my estimate of 120 journeys a day.

    -Journeys from towns on the Dublin-Wicklow-Wexford line(including Bray, Wexford and all intermediate towns with stations) to towns on the Waterford-Limerick line and towns on the Dublin-Carlow-Waterford line: 60 journeys a day.
    I'll admit this has no basis whatsoever, but with the service I'm suggesting in this post including 5 return trains a day(10 in total) connecting the Dublin-Wicklow-Wexford line to the other 2 lines, I'd say 60 such journeys a day could be achieved(6 per train on average)

    So, to recap:
    Wexford TO/FROM Waterford:170 journeys a day
    South Wexford villages TO/FROM Dublin & Wexford: 210 journeys a day
    Waterford TO/FROM towns between Bray & Enniscorthy inclusive: 120 journeys a day
    Towns on Limerick-Waterford & Dublin-Waterford lines TO/FROM towns between Bray and Wexford inclusive: 60 journeys a day

    170 + 210 + 120 + 60 = 560.

    So that is where my estimate of 560 journeys a day comes from.


  • #116
    ted1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,650 ✭✭✭✭ted1


    Harry Palmr wrote: »
    Here you are pdf
    https://t.co/vRQKEHRdmG?amp=1

    Who are they. Clearly a vested interest group afraid to identify themselves


  • #117
    hans aus dtschl
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,241 ✭✭✭hans aus dtschl


    Deleted User wrote: »
    I did, still not a strong enough justification to put it ahead of Dart+, Metro, etc.

    In fact, IE themselves have no intention of looking to get that line opened. Their priorities for the next decade are
    • 4 tracking Hazelhatch – Kildare and 3 tracking Kildare to Portarlington on Cork Line
    • 3 or 4 tracking north of Connolly to Malahide on Belfast Line
    • Double tracking sections of Intercity network to facilitate reliable services at increased frequencies, with second platforms at existing stations including:
    • Double tracking Portarlington – Athlone
    • Double tracking Maynooth – Mullingar / Longford
    • Double tracking Athenry – Oranmore – Galway
    • Dynamic passing Loops / additional platforms Limerick – Limerick Junction
    • Additional platform at Millstreet on Tralee Line
    • Additional platform at Woodlawn on Galway Line
    • Passing loop between Claremorris and Westport
    • Reconfiguration of Sligo station and passing loop at Ballymote
    • Passing loop at Sixmilebridge on Ennis line

    This is the nub of the issue to me.
    I have nothing whatsoever against the opening of the Wexford Waterford line. Sounds great. But realistically it's towards the "dream" end of the projects list rather than the "imminent" end.

    If you told me it would be considered again 15-20 years from now I'd think it a reasonably big achievement.


  • #118
    ohographite
    Registered Users Posts: 312 ✭✭ohographite


    ted1 wrote: »
    Who are they. Clearly a vested interest group afraid to identify themselves

    I am a member of South East on Track. I do not have any vested interest in being part of the group. I am part of it because I think reopening Waterford-Rosslare would be beneficial to the environment and to the people who would use it, and also because they have other demands which I also agree with, which I'd say would be cheaper to implement, such as improving the services on all the operational railways to the Southeast of Ireland, including Dublin-Waterford, Dublin-Rosslare and Limerick-Waterford. It is actually because of their demand for improving the operational railways that I joined them.


  • #119
    Sam Russell
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,864 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    ohographite wrote: »
    I don't see why it is delusional. I explained in post #21 earlier in this thread how I arrived at my estimate.
    I will repost it here:

    I have estimated that the Rosslare-Waterford line would be used for 560 journeys a day, if reopened with the following:

    So, to recap:
    Wexford TO/FROM Waterford:170 journeys a day
    South Wexford villages TO/FROM Dublin & Wexford: 210 journeys a day
    Waterford TO/FROM towns between Bray & Enniscorthy inclusive: 120 journeys a day
    Towns on Limerick-Waterford & Dublin-Waterford lines TO/FROM towns between Bray and Wexford inclusive: 60 journeys a day

    170 + 210 + 120 + 60 = 560.

    So that is where my estimate of 560 journeys a day comes from.

    How many passengers currently use the Rosslare Europort to Wexford section of the RE to Dub service? How many go from Wexford to Enniscorthy? (I mean how many are on the train for those two services, wherever they are actually going)

    Someone quoted a 1,000 passengers a day, but I suspect many are after Wicklow to Dublin, and very few before Arklow. I doubt the current service carries anything like 60 passengers per day out of Wexford, and even if they did, that is a very low usage for the service. One bus or coach would carry that many.


  • #120
    IngazZagni
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,608 ✭✭✭IngazZagni


    The name of the group shows they have an agenda. It's a classic case of the conclusion being written first and the rest is a document to try and fit the conclusion. It is not an independent report.

    Honestly I think the idea of reopening this line is farcical. A service that has never had any significant passenger numbers in its history. I would certainly object to any funds going to this project when there are so many other more pressing items on the agenda.


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  • #121
    Larbre34
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,357 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34


    Hi Ohographite. You are deluded. Even if you think you're not, you are. Absolutely nobody is talking about reopening this line, ever. Even the Green party. That should tell you everything you need to know.


  • #122
    ExoPolitic
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 364 ✭✭ExoPolitic


    The big problem is the lack of passenger available to use the route, and no freight facility at rosslare for rail.

    Nail in the coffin for the "onward connectivity" arguement; they stopped the 5/x5 bus route from Waterford via the east coast to Dublin which stopped at the towns along the way, due to lack of ridership, and that was a well serviced route!


  • #123
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    IngazZagni wrote: »
    The name of the group shows they have an agenda. It's a classic case of the conclusion being written first and the rest is a document to try and fit the conclusion. It is not an independent report.

    Aye, its along the lines of the WOT fantasy stories


  • #124
    reddituser123
    Closed Accounts Posts: 15 ✭reddituser123


    Can we please stop with the anti rail crap posts. It's obvious that many users on this thread are trolling at this stage, trying to downplay all the hard work SEOT have done so far.


    @Larbre34 You are the one who is deluded and I am assuming you are trolling. People before Profit support reopening the rail line, and many other TD's in the area have supported it as well.

    Everyone else in this thread who is trolling, STOP, most of you have never traveled the line or have been anywhere near the area.

    I request we temporarily lock this thread to stop the trolls.

    Mod: Less of the attacking other posters - sanctions will follow if you do so again.


  • #125
    ohographite
    Registered Users Posts: 312 ✭✭ohographite


    Larbre34 wrote: »
    Hi Ohographite. You are deluded. Even if you think you're not, you are. Absolutely nobody is talking about reopening this line, ever. Even the Green party. That should tell you everything you need to know.

    I do not expect this line to reopen, but I still think it should.


  • #126
    ohographite
    Registered Users Posts: 312 ✭✭ohographite


    Sam Russell wrote: »
    How many passengers currently use the Rosslare Europort to Wexford section of the RE to Dub service? How many go from Wexford to Enniscorthy? (I mean how many are on the train for those two services, wherever they are actually going)

    Someone quoted a 1,000 passengers a day, but I suspect many are after Wicklow to Dublin, and very few before Arklow. I doubt the current service carries anything like 60 passengers per day out of Wexford, and even if they did, that is a very low usage for the service. One bus or coach would carry that many.

    The 2019 Heavy Rail Census Report has 83 daily northbound boardings in Wexford, and 132 daily southbound alightings. That means in 2019, the total number of journeys made daily to Wexford from the direction of Dublin, combined with the journeys made daily from Wexford towards Dublin, was 215.

    I would say the amount of journeys Wexford station is used for in a day during the lockdown is below 60, but I don't expect it to stay that low when the lockdown is over.


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  • #127
    Larbre34
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,357 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34


    reddituser123 wrote: »
    @Larbre34 You are the one who is deluded and I am assuming you are trolling. People before Profit support reopening the rail line

    Oh well I stand corrected. Just so long as Irish Rail can survive on people and not profit, eh?

    I'm not trolling one syllable. I'm im favour of high speed, high frequency intercity heavy rail investment and commuter rail and light rail for our cities. I do not accept pissing away taxpayers money on a white elephant thats already been shot between the eyes. That doesn't make me anti-rail, it makes me a realist.


  • #128
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    reddituser123 wrote: »
    Can we please stop with the anti rail crap posts. It's obvious that many users on this thread are trolling at this stage, trying to downplay all the hard work SEOT have done so far.


    @Larbre34 You are the one who is deluded and I am assuming you are trolling. People before Profit support reopening the rail line, and many other TD's in the area have supported it as well.

    Everyone else in this thread who is trolling, STOP, most of you have never traveled the line or have been anywhere near the area.

    I request we temporarily lock this thread to stop the trolls.

    First off, you're a new account so let me make you aware, there is a report button under each post. If you feel someone is trolling, by all means click that button, fill in the box and submit.

    Unlike reddit, boards allows for open discussion with opposing points of view. So long as you stay within the rules, no opinion is invalid

    Now, allow me to clarify for you, just because people don't agree with you, does not mean they are trolling you.

    SEOT may have done up a lovely case study to make their case however it doesn't stack up when compared to other rail projects which have a far higher benefit regardless of whatever measure you decide to use (economic, environmental, pax increases, etc etc etc).

    That the needs of this route are already served by a several buses which are not that busy would indicate that there is a very small market in the first place. Indeed if there was a doubling of the demand tomorrow I doubt they would even need to run additional buses such is the spare capacity.

    While it would be nice to have this route reopened, and I'm personally not against it, it is unlikely to reopen during our lifetimes as there is a long list of other projects which are going to get funding ahead of this. For example, see the list I posted above. That list is IE's hopes and dreams for the next decade.....they will not get everything on that list sadly so some will go into the next decades pot by which time there will be other projects again, which will be more deserving of investment that this project.


  • #129
    ted1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,650 ✭✭✭✭ted1


    ohographite wrote: »
    I am a member of South East on Track. I do not have any vested interest in being part of the group. I am part of it because I think reopening Waterford-Rosslare would be beneficial to the environment and to the people who would use it, and also because they have other demands which I also agree with, which I'd say would be cheaper to implement, such as improving the services on all the operational railways to the Southeast of Ireland, including Dublin-Waterford, Dublin-Rosslare and Limerick-Waterford. It is actually because of their demand for improving the operational railways that I joined them.

    How can anyone take the group serious ? You need to declare who is on the committee. Without doing so you have no credibility. For all we know you could be a company with the contract to look after the tracks or supply locomotives for that line


  • #130
    ExoPolitic
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 364 ✭✭ExoPolitic


    reddituser123 wrote: »
    Can we please stop with the anti rail crap posts. It's obvious that many users on this thread are trolling at this stage, trying to downplay all the hard work SEOT have done so far.


    @Larbre34 You are the one who is deluded and I am assuming you are trolling. People before Profit support reopening the rail line, and many other TD's in the area have supported it as well.

    Everyone else in this thread who is trolling, STOP, most of you have never traveled the line or have been anywhere near the area.

    I request we temporarily lock this thread to stop the trolls.

    If people before profit are involved, then the project is a non starter, especially that Una Dunphy, she has absolutely no grounding in the real world and has no respect even from people within PBP.


  • #131
    Del2005
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,031 ✭✭✭✭Del2005


    ohographite wrote: »
    I am a member of South East on Track. I do not have any vested interest in being part of the group. I am part of it because I think reopening Waterford-Rosslare would be beneficial to the environment and to the people who would use it, and also because they have other demands which I also agree with, which I'd say would be cheaper to implement, such as improving the services on all the operational railways to the Southeast of Ireland, including Dublin-Waterford, Dublin-Rosslare and Limerick-Waterford. It is actually because of their demand for improving the operational railways that I joined them.

    How is laying 60km of track to take 600 people out of their cars better for the environment then buying 10 buses to use the road that's already built? If there was no road linking them then a rail link may be viable but building a duplicate rail link for tiny numbers is not good for the environment.


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  • #132
    riddlinrussell
    Registered Users Posts: 1,034 ✭✭✭riddlinrussell


    Repeatedly calling people who have, on multiple occasions, shown serious and clear desire for a major increase in rail projects 'anti-rail' does little to lend credibility to your argument.

    Being 'Pro-rail' does not mean you need to be in favour of every rail project, especially ones that would damage the viability of the existing network.

    Spending over 50 million on this route would delay spending on one of the current critical pieces of improvement needed for the core network.

    Operating it would put a major hole in finances which would mean less money for maintenance and increased risk of other lines closing.

    I have zero issue with this project being on an IÉ 'list' of things to do, as long as proponents can accept that its very likely going to remain at the very bottom of that list for at least the next 30 years.

    If you insist it be done as soon as possible then arguably you are 'anti-rail' as the result of this would be the closure of more routes, including this one within 5-10 years of reopening.

    Fight for it to become a heritage route, you can even try and get it running a timetable that gets you into Wexford for 9...


  • #133
    ExoPolitic
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 364 ✭✭ExoPolitic


    riddlinrussell wrote: »
    Repeatedly calling people who have, on multiple occasions, shown serious and clear desire for a major increase in rail projects 'anti-rail' does little to lend credibility to your argument.

    Being 'Pro-rail' does not mean you need to be in favour of every rail project, especially ones that would damage the viability of the existing network.

    Spending over 50 million on this route would delay spending on one of the current critical pieces of improvement needed for the core network.

    Operating it would put a major hole in finances which would mean less money for maintenance and increased risk of other lines closing.

    I have zero issue with this project being on an IÉ 'list' of things to do, as long as proponents can accept that its very likely going to remain at the very bottom of that list for at least the next 30 years.

    If you insist it be done as soon as possible then arguably you are 'anti-rail' as the result of this would be the closure of more routes, including this one within 5-10 years of reopening.

    Fight for it to become a heritage route, you can even try and get it running a timetable that gets you into Wexford for 9...

    The old Tramore railway line would make a great heritage railway, I was just thinking about that the other day.


  • #134
    riddlinrussell
    Registered Users Posts: 1,034 ✭✭✭riddlinrussell


    ExoPolitic wrote: »
    The old Tramore railway line would make a great heritage railway, I was just thinking about that the other day.

    I think running heritage railway alongside a greenway track would be an AMAZING tourist draw, these are the sort of projects that we need to push for.


  • #135
    ExoPolitic
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 364 ✭✭ExoPolitic


    riddlinrussell wrote: »
    I think running heritage railway alongside a greenway track would be an AMAZING tourist draw, these are the sort of projects that we need to push for.

    Even if it was just small trains, like they do on the Romney Hythe and Dymchurch railway to facilitate space to include a Greenway, it would be a HUGE tourist draw!

    Imagine, being able to get a steam train to the beach direct from the city.


  • #136
    Del.Monte
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,363 ✭✭✭✭Del.Monte


    riddlinrussell wrote: »
    I think running heritage railway alongside a greenway track would be an AMAZING tourist draw, these are the sort of projects that we need to push for.




    Suggesting a heritage railway for this route shows a serious lack of understanding of railway preservation in general and in Ireland in particular. Primarily, even if money was not a problem, there's no volunteers, no available locomotives or rolling stock. The suggestion is similar to that made by those other railway 'experts' McKinsey & Co. who stated in their 1970s report that the Youghal line should be hand over to a railway preservation society.

    ****



  • #137
    Del.Monte
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,363 ✭✭✭✭Del.Monte


    Del2005 wrote: »
    How is laying 60km of track to take 600 people out of their cars better for the environment then buying 10 buses to use the road that's already built? If there was no road linking them then a rail link may be viable but building a duplicate rail link for tiny numbers is not good for the environment.


    The track is still in situ and while some relaying would be involved you're are making it sound like an entirely new railway would have to be driven through virgin countryside. Have you ever travelled on the Waterford/Rosslare route?

    ****



  • #138
    Sam Russell
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,864 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    Del.Monte wrote: »
    The track is still in situ and while some relaying would be involved you're are making it sound like an entirely new railway would have to be driven through virgin countryside. Have you ever travelled on the Waterford/Rosslare route?

    The line is not owned by IE, but like Rosslare Europort and Fishguard Port, is part owned in conjunction with Stena Line.

    Who is going to pay for any upgrade work?


  • #139
    Del.Monte
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,363 ✭✭✭✭Del.Monte


    Sam Russell wrote: »
    The line is not owned by IE, but like Rosslare Europort and Fishguard Port, is part owned in conjunction with Stena Line.

    Who is going to pay for any upgrade work?


    I'm well aware of who owns the line and it's a red herring. The line was not closed by the Fishguard and Rosslare Railways and Harbours Company no more than it was operated by them. It would be CIE/Irish Government who fund any reopening.

    ****



  • #140
    riddlinrussell
    Registered Users Posts: 1,034 ✭✭✭riddlinrussell


    Del.Monte wrote: »
    Suggesting a heritage railway for this route shows a serious lack of understanding of railway preservation in general and in Ireland in particular. Primarily, even if money was not a problem, there's no volunteers, no available locomotives or rolling stock. The suggestion is similar to that made by those other railway 'experts' McKinsey & Co. who stated in their 1970s report that the Youghal line should be hand over to a railway preservation society.

    Are you implying that SouthWest on Track would not be interested in volunteering for such a thing if the opportunity presented itself?

    Some heritage stock does exist, I think it would be well worth discussing with the minister of tourism and the minister of heritage as an opportunity.


  • #141
    Sam Russell
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,864 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    Del.Monte wrote: »
    I'm well aware of who owns the line and it's a red herring. The line was not closed by the Fishguard and Rosslare Railways and Harbours Company no more than it was operated by them. It would be CIE/Irish Government who fund any reopening.

    Given the current development of Rosslare Europort, it would be prudent for IE and the Irish Gov to sort out the ownership issue before much money was spent.

    I doubt that the Rosslare to Waterford line would be considered an asset.


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  • #142
    ohographite
    Registered Users Posts: 312 ✭✭ohographite


    riddlinrussell wrote: »

    Operating it would put a major hole in finances which would mean less money for maintenance and increased risk of other lines closing.

    I have zero issue with this project being on an IÉ 'list' of things to do, as long as proponents can accept that its very likely going to remain at the very bottom of that list for at least the next 30 years.

    I agree that there are other projects that should be done on the railway network first.


  • #143
    Del.Monte
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,363 ✭✭✭✭Del.Monte


    riddlinrussell wrote: »
    Are you implying that SouthWest on Track would not be interested in volunteering for such a thing if the opportunity presented itself?

    Some heritage stock does exist, I think it would be well worth discussing with the minister of tourism and the minister of heritage as an opportunity.


    I am not implying anything, I am telling you

    1.) The locomotives and rolling stock for such a project are NOT available.

    2.) The idea that having a Facebook page, and preparing costings for a State reopening of the line, equates to being able to provide volunteers to operate what would be the longest preserved railway in the British Isles is nonsense.

    ****



  • #144
    Thrashssacre
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,269 ✭✭✭Thrashssacre


    The length would make it difficult but having it bridge the gap between two mainlines and having it as the only large heritage preservation in the Irish state would make it a pretty big draw from those in the UK and Ireland, the UK rail enthusiast market is huge and having rosslare right on the doorstep of the line would be essential to its success.


  • #145
    Del.Monte
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,363 ✭✭✭✭Del.Monte


    Thrashssacre wrote: »
    The length would make it difficult but having it bridge the gap between two mainlines and having it as the only large heritage preservation in the Irish state would make it a pretty big draw from those in the UK and Ireland, the UK rail enthusiast market is huge and having rosslare right on the doorstep of the line would be essential to its success.


    You've conveniently ignored my post - there's nothing available for such a fanciful project - no stock and no volunteers. Incidentally, your use of the word bridge is apt as there are rather a lot of them!

    ****



  • #146
    riddlinrussell
    Registered Users Posts: 1,034 ✭✭✭riddlinrussell


    Del.Monte wrote: »
    I am not implying anything, I am telling you

    1.) The locomotives and rolling stock for such a project are NOT available.

    2.) The idea that having a Facebook page, and preparing costings for a State reopening of the line, equates to being able to provide volunteers to operate what would be the longest preserved railway in the British Isles is nonsense.

    A point of order, I initially was discussing the creation of a Heritage route on the Tramore Line, if you were to restore part of the Waterford-Rosslare line as heritage then it likely wouldn't be the whole thing, most likely the section close to Waterford to gain the most visitors.

    I understand there is a lack of Steam locomotives, but potentially IÉ would part with some old stock when the new trains come in starting 2023/4?


  • #147
    Thrashssacre
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,269 ✭✭✭Thrashssacre


    riddlinrussell wrote: »
    A point of order, I initially was discussing the creation of a Heritage route on the Tramore Line, if you were to restore part of the Waterford-Rosslare line as heritage then it likely wouldn't be the whole thing, most likely the section close to Waterford to gain the most visitors.

    I understand there is a lack of Steam locomotives, but potentially IÉ would part with some old stock when the new trains come in starting 2023/4?

    I was thinking they could form a partnership with the rpsi who have multiple steam and diesel locomotives as well as rolling stock (some of which they can't even use currently) the issues for me that would present the most problem is cash and volunteers. National lottery grants and tourism ireland would be a good Start but presumably the project will need at least one wealthy backer to get off the ground.


  • #148
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Aren't there enough buses covering New Ross, Wexford & Rosslare?

    The population isn't there to justify such an investment!

    I'm all for rail investment, it has been sadly neglected over the years

    but it needs to be carefully thought out before investing in it.


  • #149
    Sam Russell
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,864 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    What state is the line currently? Can it take a locomotive, or a commuter train? Are the stations still intact? Are the sleepers rotten? Is the signalling system intact and working?

    If it could take a routine train, there might be some tiny chance, but if not, then not a chance.

    The heritage idea might work coupled with a greenway.


  • #150
    specialbyte
    Registered Users Posts: 239 ✭✭specialbyte


    Sam Russell wrote: »
    What state is the line currently? Can it take a locomotive, or a commuter train? Are the stations still intact? Are the sleepers rotten? Is the signalling system intact and working?

    If it could take a routine train, there might be some tiny chance, but if not, then not a chance.

    The heritage idea might work coupled with a greenway.

    The line was seeing an annual weed spraying train. However, the NTA and IE have taken the decision to leave the Barrow Bridge in the open position, so.
    that it is easier for marine traffic to access New Ross port. IE were employing 4 staff to open the bridge twice a day, which is odd for a line that was closed 10 years ago. I'm not sure if that prevents future weed spraying trains.

    Source: https://www.kildarestreet.com/debates/?id=2020-10-06a.540


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  • #151
    Del.Monte
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,363 ✭✭✭✭Del.Monte


    Sam Russell wrote: »
    What state is the line currently? Can it take a locomotive, or a commuter train? Are the stations still intact? Are the sleepers rotten? Is the signalling system intact and working?

    If it could take a routine train, there might be some tiny chance, but if not, then not a chance.

    The heritage idea might work coupled with a greenway.


    You're still not taking it in - the heritage idea is a nonsense. The RPSI are far, far away in Co.Antrim and would have zero interest in such a scheme and do not have loads of serviceable steam locos available.



    The stations, apart from Wellingtonbridge, have been no more than bare platforms for years. The signalling system is intact. A lot of sleepers would need replacing but the line as been used by inspection cars and the weedkilling train in recent times.

    ****



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