Heat Pumps - post here.

Oggie · 09-01-2010 10:37pm

elainec wrote: »

The average temperature in all the rooms is 14C with the Kitchen and Sitting Room at 10C. Our home is 2200 sq ft with vaulted ceilings in the kitchen and sitting room.
Our sole source of heat is the Heat Pump and we were told that its an economic form of heating. However last January and February our ESB costs were €800 per month!

Hi elaine,

Sorry to hear about your situation. Im in a similar one myself with temps of just 12 degrees in the house presently, freezing!!. I have a boiler stove as well, but its still not enough. Temperatures as low as 10 are crazy considering 800 a month!

Im just wondering have you tried contacting the manufacturer of the heat pump, and surely you have a warranty of some description?

KAGY · 10-01-2010 3:36pm

We had a similar problem last year. Turns out there was a pinpoint hole in one of the brazes / soldered joints and it was slowly leaking refrigerant.

Your heat pump should have a sight glass on it somewhere, check that it is mostly liquid flowing though it (assuming it's before the evaporator / cold side) with only a few bubbles if any. If it's mostly gas with a few splashes of liquid then you've lost charge.
karl

I've got my self one of those energy monitoring devices now (the Wattson) so I can keep track of the ESB usage.

bazual · 11-01-2010 11:17pm

Update on my situation.........

Had builder of house out today who fitted temp gauges to the manifold.
After trying to balance out the rooms the temps read 34 in and about 21 return. I presume from above posts that these should be a bit closer together.
There is an issue where one loop is not working in sunroom so possibly this may be cooling as well.

On another point we had a discussion about the performance of system.
When the thermostat in hall kicks in i.e. lets say aiming for 23 deg at 11pm. The circulation pump runs for 15 minutes prior to the heat pump kicking in. This appears to be standard set up but to us doesnt make sense as you are circulating cold water into house for 15mins before hot water comes in. Is this the way other people have it set up and is this correct?

Thanks
b~

bazual · 15-01-2010 10:07pm

bazual wrote: »

Update on my situation.........

Had builder of house out today who fitted temp gauges to the manifold.
After trying to balance out the rooms the temps read 34 in and about 21 return. I presume from above posts that these should be a bit closer together.
There is an issue where one loop is not working in sunroom so possibly this may be cooling as well.

On another point we had a discussion about the performance of system.
When the thermostat in hall kicks in i.e. lets say aiming for 23 deg at 11pm. The circulation pump runs for 15 minutes prior to the heat pump kicking in. This appears to be standard set up but to us doesnt make sense as you are circulating cold water into house for 15mins before hot water comes in. Is this the way other people have it set up and is this correct?

Thanks
b~

Another update, temp at the manifolds everytime i look now when system is on is about 30deg flow and 18 return. Still curious about the circulation pump question above if anyone knows. I have also worked out for the past couple of days me ESB costs appear to be about €9 a day making ESB for the year €3285 which in my opinion is madness. Its roughly 38 night units and could be anything from 20-30 day units. Meter is on nightsaver. I am debating getting an independant engineer out to see the site suitability and if the heat pump is strong enough.
Thanks
B~

al2009 · 16-01-2010 5:37pm

baz

i would have thought you should have 55c flow temperature, any idea what the flow and return at the heat pump is? is it hitting temperature? if it is then problems are probably flow/tank related, if heat pump is not hitting temperature then it may need to be checked.

al

Oggie · 20-01-2010 10:03pm

bazual wrote: »

After trying to balance out the rooms the temps read 34 in and about 21 return. I presume from above posts that these should be a bit closer together.

When the thermostat in hall kicks in i.e. lets say aiming for 23 deg at 11pm. The circulation pump runs for 15 minutes prior to the heat pump kicking in. This appears to be standard set up but to us doesnt make sense as you are circulating cold water into house for 15mins before hot water comes in.

Hi Baz,

I think your right about the temps being closer. I could be wrong but I think the return is an indication of how cold your floor is. You should be getting returns of about 28 or 29 in my opinion. But if one loop is not working then this would have an effect I presume. As for the circulation pump, this is standard with this system I think as mine does the same, however I have a buffer tank which contains hot water. For example when my stat send a signal back to the control panel to say that it is hot enough, this turns off the pump. However the heat pump continues to work for about an hour or so, so as to increase the temperature in the buffer tank. It does this so that when the stat calls for heat again, it is instantly available. This was the explanation I was given and it does seem to make a certain amount of sense.

Just on an update on my own problems. I had the guys from the company out and they replaced the heat pump. Apparently a valve for the gas was not closing properly and this was causing the heat pump to overheat consistently causing damage. Its back working now again but not fully. There is still a problem with the control panel not turning off when it should but this is only a mere electronic fault!!

0lddog · 28-01-2010 7:37pm

bazual wrote: »

.............. I have also worked out for the past couple of days me ESB costs appear to be about €9 a day making ESB for the year €3285 which in my opinion is madness. ..............B~

Approx how many days of the year do you need to have the heating turned on ?

pandl · 02-02-2010 10:46pm

Hi,
just a first time user of this board but have had a Nibe 1220 heat pump for the last 2 years with underfloor downstairs and rads upstairs.I have only 1 stat inside the house which is located in the landing upstairs and controls the valve for the rads only.I had the same problem with return flow temp being about 8 degrees colder than flow temp and after searching the internet found a site that explained that the less restriction on the underfloor manifold the closer the temps.I then opened all the returns on the manifold last sunday night and now the temps are within 1 deg of each other.Doesnt seem to have reduced the esb but gave me a piece of mind.Hope this can help

windyboy · 11-02-2010 11:12pm

Hi,

I am building an ICF 2 storey house (2800 sq ft) and have been given a quote for a Waterkotte 9.4kW geothermal heat pump. The plumber is local but I believe Nutherm supply the heat pumps. Has anyone here have any experience of this pump to advise me how it is performing.

Thanks,

Windyboy

onefinemorning · 12-02-2010 12:23am

pandl wrote: »

Hi,
just a first time user of this board but have had a Nibe 1220 heat pump for the last 2 years with underfloor downstairs and rads upstairs.I have only 1 stat inside the house which is located in the landing upstairs and controls the valve for the rads only.I had the same problem with return flow temp being about c and after searching the internet found a site that explained that the less restriction on the underfloor manifold the closer the temps.I then opened all the returns on the manifold last sunday night and now the temps are within 1 deg of each other.Doesnt seem to have reduced the esb but gave me a piece of mind.Hope this can help

Hi Pandl,

In a well balanced heating system you should be aiming for a temperature difference of 8 -> 10C between flow and return. If this temperature difference is less it it symptomatic of other problems (balancing, pump speed, pipe sizes etc)

Opening all the returns on your manifold is not necessarily a good thing as it will unbalance the system and potentiall starve some areas of heat (water will be encouraged to return to the heat pump or buffer tank rather than going through the heating loops to the floor)

So hope this helps - in fact your original 8 degrees temp difference sounds perfect

pandl · 17-02-2010 11:46pm

Hi onefinemorn
i was looking up the web site again and it def. says that for underfloor heating system the less heat loss between flow and return the better and the figures you have quoted he suggests are for a rad systems.I have no plumbing experience so if you would def suggest trying to balance the underfloor system i might give it a go

sandy_mac · 20-02-2010 2:30pm

gunner0098 wrote: »

Hi Mossy,

This is just a general reply to say that I'm having issues with very large ESB bills (last 2 month bill was €395!). I'm using a NIBE Fighter 1220. My installer tells me that it's not the heatpump that's causing the problem but I think overwise.
I do have insulation in the floors, walls and attic and I assume its been fitted correctly. But obviously looking at the other posts it's something that I'll have to check out.
The electrical measurements you have are very specific and I think I'll have to get my electrical in to check out my heatpump and see can he do similar.

Regards

Gunner0098

I have just moved into a rented house with a NIBE heat recovery unit for all heating/hotwater. My bill came in at £400 for 10 weeks in a small 1 person new-build house! I'm very energy conscious - I've never had a bill like this in my life, and just can't afford it. The house is very warm... to warm even. I've tried everything to turn the system down to reduce energy consumption, but it seems that it has a mind of its own, responding to an external temperature sensor and turning the heat on full all day& night if it thinks I might get cold! Do you know of any tricks? I'm on the verge of turning off the 'big switch', plugging in my elecric radiator, (which I can turn off when I'm at work!) and washing with kettles of water! So much for a modern, energy-efficient system! Any help would be greatly appreciated! The only advice I seem to get from Nibe is that the system is designed to regulate itself, so i feel totally out of control of my own energy use!
Thanks.

al2009 · 20-02-2010 6:55pm

Have the landlord contact a service company, it may be something small like too high a set temperature or it could be short of refrigerant, it's hard to tell without more info.

alec

sandy_mac · 21-02-2010 1:27pm

al2009 wrote: »

Have the landlord contact a service company, it may be something small like too high a set temperature or it could be short of refrigerant, it's hard to tell without more info.

alec

Thank you for responding!

I'm afraid the system has already been checked. I know the previous tenants (I live in a wee community) and they went down every road to reduce the bills, even having a NIBE consultant come up from Sheffield, but they said the system operating under the appropriate settings and working as it should. When asked if they thought the system was right for the house they replied 'no comment'. I figure that speaks volumes!

Don't get me wrong... the house is lovely and warm. BUT. I don't want the heaters to come on full blast when I'm not in the house. It's wasteful of energy and money. I was told by my housing association that it was 'modern living' to have your house warm all the time. Well, I'm afraid the dark ages of economical bills and saving the worlds resources suit me a whole lot better!

The housing association are now very unhelpful, and don't want to lose face by admitting that something is wrong. I know of at least 6 other people in this situation where I live. We don't really know where to turn for help. There appears to be NO way of controlling the system. We've tried all kinds of settings, turning the heat curve down etc - I've even insulated the external temperature sensor to fool the system into thinking it's warmer. I've monitored my consumption very closely, and it makes barely any difference at all. I don't know what else I can do!

al2009 · 21-02-2010 10:56pm

Most heat pumps come with a contact to fit a time clock to, maybe give Nibe a shout and find if that is possible, this way you can knock the unit off for a period of time without affecting the unit.

alec

sandy_mac · 21-02-2010 11:49pm

al2009 wrote: »

Most heat pumps come with a contact to fit a time clock to, maybe give Nibe a shout and find if that is possible, this way you can knock the unit off for a period of time without affecting the unit.

alec

That would be an ideal solution... I assumed it wasn't possible as they hadn't suggested it, but if you think that is a normal facility, i'll be on the phone to them in the morning!
Thank you for your advice!

Hicker09 · 23-02-2010 9:08am

Hi all,

Im will be starting a new build soon. The plan is to install a heat pump with under floor heating. But after reading some of the posts on here about the running costs and problems people have had im reconsidering. Im putting in 100mm of insulation in the cavity, 100mm under floor and insulated plasterboard on the inside. The pump we are getting is a nibe fighter 1245 for hot water and heating. Is this a good system? Or should i consider other systems?

Thanks in advance
Stephen.

satstheway · 25-02-2010 11:03am

windyboy wrote: »

Hi,

I am building an ICF 2 storey house (2800 sq ft) and have been given a quote for a Waterkotte 9.4kW geothermal heat pump. The plumber is local but I believe Nutherm supply the heat pumps. Has anyone here have any experience of this pump to advise me how it is performing.

Thanks,

Windyboy

Had nutherm turn on my heating an dec 08 and all well. few teething problems but they are always very quick to sort out the problem.
My house is 3300 sq ft and my esb bill was not big,:)
lots of hot water on demand,
as for the local plumber I would want to be sure of his know how on systems as its not cheap and i have seen some shoddy jobs:( out there "ground freezing" and so on

metalworker65 · 02-03-2010 12:01pm

satstheway wrote: »

Had nutherm turn on my heating an dec 08 and all well. few teething problems but they are always very quick to sort out the problem.
My house is 3300 sq ft and my esb bill was not big,:)
lots of hot water on demand,
as for the local plumber I would want to be sure of his know how on systems as its not cheap and i have seen some shoddy jobs:( out there "ground freezing" and so on

Watermote has inbuilt 6kw hidden element in heatpump. if it fails to perform as heatpump this will cut in unaware to you and leave you with massive esb consumption as this will have cop of 1:1. This info may not be pointed out to you when you purchase. I would suggest disconnecting this element initially.Does the output of heatpump quoted include this element in output figure given if so you are not getting what you are paying for.

thomur · 08-03-2010 3:01am

I have a Solterra 500. Was working fine until 1 month ago heating a 250sqm house. Now I can see my breath in the house most days. Constant 6-7 degrees in the house and pump running constantly. Was fantastic when running well. Dunstart no longer exist but got an engineer out and he said the system was running fine(input -output), but still no heat in the house. Thank god for the open fire. Does anyone know if this unit has a reset or is it something more serious.

08-03-2010 4:43am

thomur wrote: »

I have a Solterra 500. Was working fine until 1 month ago heating a 250sqm house. Now I can see my breath in the house most days. Constant 6-7 degrees in the house and pump running constantly. Was fantastic when running well. Dunstart no longer exist but got an engineer out and he said the system was running fine(input -output), but still no heat in the house. Thank god for the open fire. Does anyone know if this unit has a reset or is it something more serious.

How much of the system did the engineer check? Assuming UFH, does the manifold pump work, is the buffer cylinder getting hot, are the controls calling for heat?

If the (geo)pump's running constantly, where's the heat going?

It's possible that the system has got itself into a "flat battery" situation where the ground loop is so cold it can't extract any useful heat.

al2009 · 08-03-2010 10:28pm

there's no way that system is running fine if it's not heating the house, what exactly did the engineer check?

alec

thomur · 08-03-2010 11:11pm

Thanks for replying dolanbaker, he checked the pump only. I was away for a while so the pump was not used much over the Christmas. Have had it on 6 hours a day for 4 weeks and no increase in temp. I have 2 zones + water, he told me to knock off heating the water with it as it might be drawing the heat away from the zones. Currently I have a setpoint of 44(on the pump) and an incoming temp of 1 degree. The room thermostats are all calling for heat. Unfortunately the builder never gave me the manual so I dont know how to troubleshoot and I cant find it online. When you say flat battery do you mean the cold weather cooled the solution so much that it will take time to heat up. I dont know if the manifold is working but will check the buffer cylinder.

08-03-2010 11:50pm

Basically what I mean is that the ground where the pipes are is completly frozen!

An incoming temperature of only 1 degC would suggest that the ground had been cooled by the system.

Check the cylinder, if it's full of hot water then it's the UFH water circulating pump or in that area.

Are you getting any hot water out of the Geo pump? the compressor may be working but is it pressurised with refridgerant (one of the experts here will know the correct name for the liquid), the outgoing temp to the ground loop is always lower than the incoming one, if it isn't then the pump isn't working at all.

al2009 · 09-03-2010 10:08pm

Thomur

Even at 1c inlet so long as the pump has glycol in the cooling loop and the unit is set for this, heat can be extracted, this should be sufficient to start heating the house.

My own view would have been to leave only the hot water tank active and switch off the underfloor, the tank should be fairly fast to heat up and you could then switch on underfloor.

If the pump isn't running(should be evident from noise of compressor) then the unit may not be set up to allow cooling below 1c.

check pumps first for flow and correct operation, check valves are open to whatever section you want heated, if all these are ok then it points to the heatpump.

alec

thomur · 21-03-2010 12:53am

Thanks for the replies. Turns out I had 2 problems. A flap in one of the pipes coming out of the heat pump had stuck and was failing to make a circut. Secondly air had got into the system and the pressure was very low on the gauge(nearly 0 bar). I should have copped that myself. Still, you live and learn.

selfbuiler · 29-03-2010 11:52pm

Hi all,I Have just recived planing for my house and in 2 minds wether to go underfloor with a heat pump or with the traditional rads systems with oil.... Any ideas

30-03-2010 6:36am

selfbuiler wrote: »

Hi all,I Have just recived planing for my house and in 2 minds wether to go underfloor with a heat pump or with the traditional rads systems with oil.... Any ideas

Do a search in the main construction & planning forum for "UFH oil", you'll find lots of threads asking the same question.

soniag · 05-04-2010 9:49pm

Update on my heat pump...... It went on fire on Friday, yes flames and smoke. It's completely destroyed and we are going to have to have a whole new pump fitted, as soon as the insurance has OK'd it. So we have no heat or hot water now. The previous problem turned out to be a blown non-return valve and an intermittent fault in the wilo pump on the manifold, so wilo and valve changed and problem solved, don't think this next one will be quite so simple...... Any of you ever heard of a heat pump going on fire before??
Soniag

satstheway · 23-04-2010 11:24am

metalworker65 wrote: »

Watermote has inbuilt 6kw hidden element in heatpump. if it fails to perform as heatpump this will cut in unaware to you and leave you with massive esb consumption as this will have cop of 1:1. This info may not be pointed out to you when you purchase. I would suggest disconnecting this element initially.Does the output of heatpump quoted include this element in output figure given if so you are not getting what you are paying for.

To be honest they were very good and give me all the info and they said there was no need to ever connect the second cable (the one for the backup element). so i got the electrican to put a second switch on the wall and a second trip in for the element and it is always off:). but if in a failure i can at least have hot water

.
Only prob i ever heard of with waterkote is inaccurate time clock which might be a minute or 3 fast or slow a week.:mad:
anyone i know who went with nutherm seam to be happy unless anyone here has heard any probs

Heat Pumps - post here.

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