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Who Watches the Watchmen (Our Chit Chat Thread)
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Cripes if even a small percentage of the huddled masses take your point of view on Fitz, what in the name of God would that do to Rolex' oh so (artificially) stretched waiting lists and used values!!
(or is that your cunning plan).
It might even go the other way and be the last straw, the dispelling of the illusion. When the bus driver's outstretched hand reveals a glint of genuine submariner, to where fly the Earls then? If exclusivity goes, status goes, values go. I suppose then you might truly get an answer to the quality question. Could Rolex continue to stand tall and lord it over its wannabe competition on quality and merit alone, without the market distortion of meticulously micro-managed supply and demand.
Honest opinion does make for livelier debate though for sure. And it is harder for the Rolex wearer to pooh pooh the Seiko. It's never a good look and pedastels are precarious. But it can be much more acceptable to snob up so to speak, and unfairly so. The Seiko can sometimes fling feces at the Rolex wearer with impunity but then play the sensitivity card awfully quickly at criticism in the other direction.
For me, I do really like watches, but I don't 5000 euro love them. In fact my history has shown that when it comes to voting with my wallet I don't even 500 euro love them!. But I spent datejust money on a selection of wheelsets for my bikes last year and considered them a bargain, and have two new full bikes that I didn't have this time last year! One's taste is in one's mouth innit. 0 -
It's really not and Rolex rely on that consistency to sell their current watches. The only changes are bec........................... watches I do have.
I would disagree...there are plenty of out there Rolex dials and designs (certi dials, rainbow daytonas, beach daytonas, the new Oyster perpetuals. The Skydweller and the command bezel is very innovative). Yes there are manufacturing and materials differences, case size differences, movements differences....its all adds up to very different watches unless you suggest all watches that are the same shape and colour are the same? However buyers do tend to stick to the icons, and that understandable. They are icons for a reason....and that ties back into my original argument, that people actually like what they buy rather than buy what they like. There is a whole other world of Rolex when you get away from the usual stainless sports models. Hell unkle has a 43mm Rolex that goes down to 13000ft with a 5mm thick crystal...thats innovative and bold and brave. (and yes I know about the Proflof and the 50 fathoms etc).
The genta watches, however you want to split hairs, were at a time when selling expensive mechanical watches was getting harder, and the pointed the way that has been have followed and copied since. Build a brand, create a story & sell watches to the heart not the head.
If we must draw lines from the past we have to reluctantly draw a line from there that was the genisys and proof of concept for the current market.Cripes if even a small percentage of the huddled masses take your point of view on Fitz, what in the name of God would that do to Rolex' oh so (artificially) stretched waiting lists and used values!! (or is that your cunning plan).
It might even go the other way and be the last straw, the dispelling of the illusion. When the bus driver's outstretched hand reveals a glint of genuine submariner, to where fly the Earls then? If exclusivity goes, status goes, values go. I suppose then you might truly get an answer to the quality question. Could Rolex continue to stand tall and lord it over its wannabe competition on quality and merit alone, without the market distortion of meticulously micro-managed supply and demand.
Honest opinion does make for livelier debate though for sure. And it is harder for the Rolex wearer to pooh pooh the Seiko. It's never a good look and pedastels are precarious. But it can be much more acceptable to snob up so to speak, and unfairly so. The Seiko can sometimes fling feces at the Rolex wearer with impunity but then play the sensitivity card awfully quickly at criticism in the other direction.
For me, I do really like watches, but I don't 5000 euro love them. In fact my history has shown that when it comes to voting with my wallet I don't even 500 euro love them!. But I spent datejust money on a selection of wheelsets for my bikes last year and considered them a bargain, and have two new full bikes that I didn't have this time last year! One's taste is in one's mouth innit.
Yes very well put. Its easy punch up, and also very easy not to bother getting involved at all. Take the fantasy watch competition. Bit of fun. Put up a 100k budget and people say they have no interest in any of those, No stainless they have no interest in precious metal, Vintage - nobody even enters. People cant even dream anymore so intent are they on confirming their own bias and staying in, and defending their comfort zones.
However I own Seiko, I love seiko, I think seiko is a great brand. Seiko is in my opinion where everyone should start...I think one seiko is enough but thats another story, but a collection of seiko is pretty cool.
Price is a barrier to entry but if you are really into it, these watches are not that expensive in the grand scheme. Depends on what else you will sacrifice. Quit smoking, stop drinking, skip a holiday, dont change the car, take on extra shifts, get another job, sell sperm, open a brothel...whatever you need to do.Cyclingtourist wrote: »Yes I would but if I was spending the kind of money I'd need to to get one I'd want to try it on first. I 'm quite happy to spend 200 on a watch I haven't tried on.
Cycling Tourist - its a strange dissonance when you would buy 10 x 300 euro watches you never tried on but not one 3000 euro watch? Now if you dont like that 3000 euro watch, you can sell it for 2900 the next day. Dont like half the 300 euro watches, nobody wants that and its a dead or massive loss. People think I buy a lot of watches, but I have basically been playing with the same money for years...I am not wealthy enough to be buying all these inexpensive watches, far too costly in the long run.0 -
I am glad to see this new air of honesty on the forum and open discussion. And while you appreciate I play the Archie character it does flush out the honesty and eliminate the bull****. When you call a spade a spade, that when meaningful discussion happens. Wibbs I appreciate people collect for a variety of reasons, you have hit on a few of mine, but missed a lot too., its easy pigeon hole me as the "throw money at it" hype watch collector, but it's a lot more considered than that.
Why do people wear expensive watches that the bought for themselves? Simple....achievement awards. The achievement is that you can, and had the good taste to do so. Its a personal thing, and a lot of the reason I cannot understand people burdening themselves with low quality rubbish. If it truly is quality you value in a watch only you will notice wearing it, its not about other people. They are fooled by your Pagani, Alpha or replica.
My kids think I am obsessed with watches and I am, and the thought of them getting my watches and bringing them to be appraised when I am gone, and told their Daddies watches were actually worthless garbage would make me sad. I want to feel that all this effort I put into the hobby is towards something, is a progression and not just an accumulation.
People buy inexpensive (to many) watches to celebrate events/achievements too Fitz - the amount of people who told me excitedly that they are hoping to wear the Starlight for their wedding, to celebrate their graduation or a major birthday or even finishing off their PhD is lovely in my eyes. Of course someone could say - ah but for something as important as a wedding wouldn't you want to wear a Rolex/Patek/Hublot (
)? But for some people who see any watch as an "unnecessary *luxury*" (in the same way as a nice Caran D'ache fountain pen or even a rollerball is unnecessary in the world of BICs...or email) spending hundreds on a watch is "luxury spending". And you want to get as much quality as possible for the budget.
As for why someone wants to accumulate rather than focus on getting a higher quality piece - could be as simple as why someone would want lots of t-shirts when they could have pooled the t-shirt money together to get a lovely dress shirt - some people like the variety in design and don't need to fret if one t-shirt gets torn or lost etc.
^ these two types of people are generally distinct from one another in my experience - I know there are people who are getting the Starlight and they've written to me to ask exactly how long before they should service the movement and want to treasure the timepiece as a lifelong piece - it could be their one "good watch" for them. I know certainly there will be others who think "micro-rotor huh - cool" and maybe never look at the watch again - they now have a micro-rotor/aventurine watch in their collection - it's not a Patek micro-rotor or a Bovet aventurine but it scratches the itch for something in that category. Humans like collecting things too and "having ownership" of something - seems like human nature. And "cheaper" watches allow for easier collection of varieties - your diver, chrono, gmt, dress, microrotor, flyback, monopusher, moonphase etc. etc. etc. - now sure Patek can sell you something with all these built into one watch - but we're not talking about a 20k watch anymore
- but you can buy affordables that covers all these categories for maybe 2-3k.
^ So while you may have concentrated on the value of a brand/resale/finishing - it could be that people who collect affordables have concentrated on the value of design/functions/materials etc. (I want a ceramic affordable, titanium affordable, tungsten affordable etc.)
If you ask me why I really want a minute repeater - ultimately there's no "good" reason other than I think it's an item of beauty that I enjoy the (aural) aesthetics of - and a MR complication is something that definitely isn't really for show to others - but like you say - personal achievement.I agree, and I will post how strongly I agree soon enough
Look forward to seeing what else you have in the post
Taking it to the personal again - if someone says "I got this Starlight for my wedding, it's beautiful!" I would hope that people don't say - ah a microbrand, it's resale value will probably plummet (though maybe not if we go further up value in the future :P ), ah it's made in China - I've had people on facebook post about the Starlight in true excitement and others respond below with a picture of Archie - I'm sure they don't regard the Starlight as "quality" - and yes absolutely - if you can afford it an ALS saxonia aventurine watch is the definitely better made watch - but lots of people genuinely can't, or prefer to have that dress watch, diver watch, chrono watch instead of one "great" watch.Yes, not everything is top quality. People know they're not high end, they're not looking for people to tell them they're quality. But anyone who visits a watch forum and takes the time to take a photo, upload it and make a comment obviously just enjoy their watch. A duro or vostok can make someone happy, partly because they got a decent watch that'll last years for under €100True.
I think the issue on this forum is that there are 2 different types of watch collectors, those who can afford to drop thousands on watches and those who can't.
For some, spending a few hundred on a watch is a major purchase, for others they'd say you are wasting your money buying junk.
Don't worry what others, think. If you like it, that's all that matters.
More than 2 - I enjoy the Omegas/Bulgaris and my wife her Rolex... but also the Vostoks and Sea-Gulls too. So I think I'm a cross between the "collector" type (making the Starlight was born from a desire to get an affordable micro-rotor watch out into the public) sprinkled with "achievement" pieces as Fitz mentions - the Omega was a reward for starting my legal career.
I bought a Poljot alarm watch - I might not buy many other types of Poljots - but the alarm watch ticks my "alarm watch complication" box without needing to buy a JLC or an Omega or even a Seiko - and for me the quality of that 35ish euro Poljot is there - it's functional collectability quality is the main quality I'm looking for and that has value in and of itself (to me).
If I put a picture up on the forum of the Poljot - it's not necessarily to say "look at the finishing of this Poljot, isn't it amazing and wonderful?" but rather "hey - check out this cool watch with a mechanical alarm - available for tens of euro - pretty nifty huh?" Others are very welcome to share their JLC Memovox etc.
And even recently - I think a new poster on the forum asked about MVMT watches and I think everyone agreed and advised the poster that 1) if he wants that style of watch it's available cheaper elsewhere or 2) if wants to spend that kind of money he could probably get a "better" watch...
But if he put up a photo of his newly acquired MVMT watch and says he loves it - are we really saying that we should say to him - "sorry that's an absolute sh*tter - you got ripped off badly mate" ? I guess if I haven't been asked for advice I normally wouldn't give it (and depending on the circumstances - would charge a pretty penny for it too :pac: )
If someone posted up his MVMT watch collection and asks if any better value could be had with other brands I'm sure people would be helpful and direct him onto Orients/Aliexpress quartz watches (if that's purely what he's interested in) - he can still love watches and *just* be interested in 40 euro quartz watches (I think anyway).0 -
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Cycling Tourist - its a strange dissonance when you would buy 10 x 300 euro watches you never tried on but not one 3000 euro watch? Now if you dont like that 3000 euro watch, you can sell it for 2900 the next day. Dont like half the 300 euro watches, nobody wants that and its a dead or massive loss. People think I buy a lot of watches, but I have basically been playing with the same money for years...I am not wealthy enough to be buying all these inexpensive watches, far too costly in the long run.
There's only a dissonance if time stops now. I have already stated that I will be on the lookout for a watch (or 2) in the 2-3K range over the coming 1-2 years. I'm not into selling watches although I've been known to give the odd one away. If I buy it's for keeps so want to try on then think and then go the AD or Chrono24 route if I decide it's what I want. Difficult to do with all the shops closed.
I could make a dental appointment in the Canaries and shop the Omega/Tudor ADs of course. 0 -
Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,089 Mod ✭✭✭✭
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Well that was a bit twatty alright. Never mind that I thought the idea and point of a fantasy lineup was to choose stuff that was well, fantasy? I mean a fantasy five car garage of mine would include a Ferrari SWB(though I'd throttle body the bugger, cos meNo I was PM'ed by people to say that expensive watches are all **** and they are not interested, that of course I would not pick cheap watches cause I is snob and I wouldnt bother doing it for affordable watches because I am out of touch with reality.....yep.) and the closest I'll get to one of them is the time I sat in one at a car show 30 years ago.
Oh I see the details, but of all the main brands Rolex(outside of Cellini) have the narrowest design language by a long distance. There's basically the same basic case shape with a fluted or "dive" bezel, minus bezel for the entry level and Mercedes hands for the most part. Add or subtract bling and mm when required. The Datejust is a unique watch alright. The Rolex really and one they didn't take inspiration from anywhere else, it being a stylisation of the original fluting on their screwdown fronted Oyster case in the 1920's.All watch companies have a design language they stick to, but I think produce far more TT, Gold and diamond watches than you would think. The SS gets all the talk, but a datejust is a pretty unique watch, the cyclops, the oyster case. I think sometimes because they have such market and mindshare domination people dont see the details.
They were a pretty little thing, if tiny. I'm kinda sorry I didn't hang onto one of them.
Well not really. The first screwdown back, front, a sealed crystal with a screwdown crown in the one "waterproof" watch was a decade before Rolex. All the pieces together. Until recently I thought Rolex did add a day window to the date, but it turns out nope there too.I am sure I am about to be corrected on different people that did all these things first, but Rolex is the apple of watches, it put all the piece together.
PotatoCam.
So we're down to the helium escape valve developed with Omega, though I'd be pretty confident they did invent the cyclops for the date window and the new Command Bezel to be fair and that is new(though not the first bezel selection complication). So of the main Swiss brands I struggle to think of any other that innovated less than Rolex in their history. Yet much of the public and indeed dealers and bloggists and youtubers and think like yer man Nico up North that they "invented the wristwatch". And that is some brilliant trick to pull off.
What Rolex were much better at with a sideorder of luck was in timing and very good advertising that spread from Britain and her commonwealth to the rest of the world. They curated a market for themselves extremely well and extremely well focussed. Theirs is one of the greatest success stories in marketing of the 20th century down to today. In any field.
Though Apple are a good comparison alright. Wilsdorf was the Jobs of his day. Saw openings in markets, gathered ideas from others and marketed them very well(though Apple innovated far more internally than Rolex).Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.
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Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,089 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Join Date:Posts: 59018
The X41 looks pretty cool alright. They're definitely not going for the conservative look anyway. The "swiss made" thing can be confusing. IIRC they only have to have around half of the parts made in Switzerland and the finished movement must be assembled in Switzerland to get that label. Tbh it never really bothered me, it's as much a marketing thing really. Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.
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People who think a good pen is unnecessary because BICs exist are heathens. I bought a good pen based on your posts in the other hobbies thread and I’ll never go back. BIC are an abomination and I’ve made a point of throwing out all the bic pens I find in work.
Hey man, to some people a BIC is a good pen and gets the job done. You have lost touch with reality here.
Cycling Tourist - you should defo try on a Tudor. Hell there are few on the forum and I am sure they would oblige. Once the AD open back up it will be easy. You will be blown away by the finish on them, Tudor make a damn fine watch and I think the BB58 would suit your aesthetic (the black not the blue).
Culling your watch collection is very cathartic. I do it every so often and have never regretted it. Having a lot of watches is too stressful, trying to give them all a bit of time, or feeling guilty of having thousands sitting in drawers doing nothing. I am not saying you should be one and done, but you seem to have very laser like focus with your cycling hobby.
This conversation and the essays it generates is interesting. There is a lot of subtlety to the arguments, fine detail, semantics etc. Its all too easy to strawman the argument by taking your own skew on it, attributing it the person with whom you disagree and misrepresent their view. Next time I use the word sh1tter* the little star denotes this conversation. One mans ****ter is another mans grail I understand that. Maybe its redialed vintage, maybe it hublot, maybe its entry level Rolex, it depends on the collector or if they are a collector or not what a sh1tter is. (unless its invicta (modern invicta wibbs) invicta is always a sh1tter).
Blue500 wouldn't matter what value you put in the fantasy collection, it had run its course, will resurrect in a while and maybe focus it down to One watch for 100k or less or something easy to enter, but a lot of people just have no interest in thing they feel they will never own. I love to dream myself.0 -
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