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Who Watches the Watchmen (Our Chit Chat Thread)
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Another way of looking at it is Brown Thomas quality v M&S quality. You can buy a perfectly good 100% cotton shirt in M&S for say €40 or go cross the road to BT and get a Chaves shirt or the equivalent and pay €400. Of course there are those who buy their shirts in Pennys or Dunnes and throw them out every year. I tend to buy mine in Oxfam where you can get BT quality for Pennys prices.
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Plus it very much depends what you want the watch for. If it's a transmitting status piece then that's the extra you're paying for and the more you pay to some degree the more status you transmit. Above a certain price point quality has little enough to do with it. So if Grand Seiko made a letter perfect homage to a Rolex Submariner it would blow it out of the water as far as quality and finishing goes, but the name on the dial wouldn't make up for it. That's where the fakes are becoming really bloody concerning for the industry and buyers. They illegally have the "name".
That for most of the "tells" you need either a loupe and/or the real deal for comparison to spot the differences between one watch and another that is a thousand times the price... Well, like I say bloody concerning. It doesn't disrespect the horological quality nearly as much as the brand.
to be fair and maybe its not apparent without a real one beside it, the dial colour is way off on that replica.0 -
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Cyclingtourist wrote: »Another way of looking at it is Brown Thomas quality v M&S quality. You can buy a perfectly good 100% cotton shirt in M&S for say €40 or go cross the road to BT and get a Chaves shirt or the equivalent and pay €400. Of course there are those who buy their shirts in Pennys or Dunnes and throw them out every year. I tend to buy mine in Oxfam where you can get BT quality for Pennys prices.
I've looked, but I've never bought a second hand shirt, don't know what is, but I've no problem buying second hand coats or jackets. Prior to brexit I stocked up on used Barbour jackets from ebay. I even went for vintage 1970-80s jackets. Give them a re-wax and they will see me out.
Best value in shirts I ever got was Ralph Lauren in Mauritius for a tenner sterling, I still have a couple with the collar turned around! With hindsight I should have bought a few more.If the seat's wet, sit on yer hat, a cool head is better than a wet ar5e.
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I've had clothes from BT that needed to be thrown out after 6 months cause they fell apart.Cyclingtourist wrote: »Another way of looking at it is Brown Thomas quality v M&S quality. You can buy a perfectly good 100% cotton shirt in M&S for say €40 or go cross the road to BT and get a Chaves shirt or the equivalent and pay €400. Of course there are those who buy their shirts in Pennys or Dunnes and throw them out every year. I tend to buy mine in Oxfam where you can get BT quality for Pennys prices.0 -
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Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,111 Mod ✭✭✭✭
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The inherent problem with your arguments around this matter Fitz is that you constantly assume everybody is into watches for the same reasons you are. Your reasons appear to be far more about the transmitting status aspect, maybe with a side order of "investment" and that's 100% cool and the gang(minus the hint of sniffiness part, though that tends to be inherent in the status buyer mindset). But let's face it it's not about quality per se, or it's a side effect, because otherwise you'd have different watches with the same or better quality from different brands few outside of watch forums have heard of. A steel Rolex is a quality watch, but it's a 3-4k mid tier quality watch with a 10k+ price. The difference is entirely in the brand name awareness, the company's marketing bill for that name and the status aspect that appeals to you. And again that's grand, that's what appeals for you, but it is not a universal thing. The guy into collecting Seiko divers isn't doing it for the same reasons as you. Neither is the guy collecting I dunno, Chinese chronos, or microbrands, or Swatch or 80's Casios, or indeed the guy who buys a load of 200 quid watches for the variety and yep even the dopamine hit. You're most certainly getting a dopamine hit from your purchases.Its a good point...quality doesnt care about your wallet. There certainly is a law of diminishing returns, but there is also the fact that the pagani's and San Martins of this world are horological bubblegum....amuse your tastebuds for a moment but deliver no substance.
Aye, the heavy duty waxed ones last forever. I've 30 year old ones I bought new and they're still bang on. I remember1 they were starting to get dead fash among the suburban set and were 200 quid in Brown Thomas, but the same jacket in a fishing tackle shop was 80.Prior to brexit I stocked up on used Barbour jackets from ebay. I even went for vintage 1970-80s jackets. Give them a re-wax and they will see me out. When my dad passed away I gave one of his, an International, to a good mate of mine who he got on really well with and he still wears it and that would be 50 years old. It's had a couple of small patches over the years but otherwise it's fine and you could stand under a shower in the thing and not get wet. Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.
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Personally, i'm into the status element of watches, because they're the only jewellery i would wear
That's an interesting logic
Watch is the only jewellery I wear too. I think I like the status element as well. I bought 4 Rolex watches last year, but all were during COVID lockdown and I work mostly from home, so didn't really have anyone to "show off" the watch to except my wife and kids
So maybe not so much that status element after all. Or just to give status to myself. Because I'm worth it. Or something.0 -
That's an interesting logic
Watch is the only jewellery I wear too. I think I like the status element as well. I bought 4 Rolex watches last year, but all were during COVID lockdown and I work mostly from home, so didn't really have anyone to "show off" the watch to except my wife and kids
So maybe not so much that status element after all. Or just to give status to myself. Because I'm worth it. Or something.
That’s the thing about luxury items, it doesn’t have to be all about showing off, personally I get a satisfaction from just knowing I have something that others desire (it’s a bit of an innate childish quality really) but I generally don’t go around rubbing other peoples faces in it either.
But for some other people it’s all about letting others know what they have, that’s why fakes exist, people want the status.0 -
Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,111 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Join Date:Posts: 59040
I used to wear more jewellery, mostly pendants and the like. Though being me one was a mid-late medieval Byzantine cross, another was a 2nd century BC Celtic pendant. Hipster central. Feck it I may dust them off. I draw the line at earrings. Though whatever floats your boat I say. Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.
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Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,111 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Join Date:Posts: 59040
They've been taking the mickey to some degree since the late nineties, but very much so in the last decade as the watch thing went more mainstream. Not just the luxury brands either it's across the board. Dealers in grey, used and vintage market smelled blood in the water too. Auction houses ditto(though they were always dens of sharp practice) and bloggists turned outlets like Hodinkee really heated up the market.The mark up on three hander sports models from the holy trinity must be astronomical though. For sure the finishing is better than the mid tier brands beneath them and no doubt there is a lot more manual labour gone into them but at the same time they aren't precious metal and they don't have complex movements requiring a lot of R&D. At what stage do you have to ask the extent to which watch brands are just taking the mick?
Not really, but the prices were significantly lower all over. So a Patek Nautilus in 1975 was around four months wages for the average American, something like a Rolex steel sports model was under a month's wages, an Omega Speedmaster was about the same as an entry level Submariner. On the other hand the top of the line new tech quartz in the Omega Marine Chronometer was dearer than the Patek. So much so they just couldn't sell them and as the tech got cheaper they ended up heavily discounting them or giving them away internally. The Patek has increased in price today that's for sure, by around double, but not nearly as much as the previously mid tier offerings like Rolex, or Omega for that matter, which would be quadruple and more.What would the disparity in price have been between something like an omega and a Patek 40 years ago? Were they much closer.
They've moved up in the "luxury" stakes. Quality and some materials used have certainly improved. EG Rolex movements were always pretty meh, even lacklustre, but built like tanks for longevity. Think a Swiss Seiko. That's improved though they're still built like tanks, a bonus. The Omega movements got arguably worse overall, though the coaxial escapement was a step up. So they've improved alright, but so have the production technologies which makes production far easier and cheaper compared to the 60's and 70's and in the case of Rolex they brought everything inhouse which streamlines things(Omega have the Swatch group behind them). Look how quickly Omega can produce yet another "special edition" Speedie. Something that in new tooling alone would have taken years back in the day. It could be easily argued one cancelled out the other.
In car terms it could be kinda like you are buying a 1960's BMW with a little more power, computer engine management and fuel injection, but now they're selling in the same arena as 1960's Maseratis and at the same price levels. While rusty, sorry "tropical" original Beemers from the 60's are going for the price of Bugattis. Kinda.
Tulip mania.Watchfinder (no guide on price really) have listed a 5711 for 100k yesterday.
RRP is 26k.
For a 3 hander steel watch. I blame the consumer at this point for being willing to pay that.Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.
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The mark up on three hander sports models from the holy trinity must be astronomical though. For sure the finishing is better than the mid tier brands beneath them and no doubt there is a lot more manual labour gone into them but at the same time they aren't precious metal and they don't have complex movements requiring a lot of R&D. At what stage do you have to ask the extent to which watch brands are just taking the mick? What would the disparity in price have been between something like an omega and a Patek 40 years ago? Were they much closer. I appreciate its (artifical) supply and demand but putting that aside .... I'm not doubting the quality of these watches by the way, they are beautiful and would love to have one but the prices just seem nuts for what you get.
I think I may have just transported myself to stage 8!
For the likes of Patek - I would think of their three hander "simple" watches are their bread and butter - from a positive perspective it allows them to have funds to do the "high-end" horology stuff that we find fascinating - grand complications, paying for those true artisans who do the enamel, marquertry, lacquer work etc.
When I was speaking to the gent who does all of Patek's wood marquertry in a NY exhibition he mentions that he does 4 dials a year, from designing, to choosing the wood, to cutting and piecing it together etc.
In some ways I guess someone who buys a PP wood marquertry watch is "underpaying" for the watch - as his purchase is being partially offset by the fact that the Patek machine has parts/machinery/operation based on the production of those three hander Calatravas.
So I think if I were to get something from one of those brands - I'd want to go beyond the "bread and butter" line and get something with complications that show off their artisianal work.
Would love to have proper lacquer or virtreous/grand feu enamel dial on some Sólás piece in the future... (I'm not going to dream about marquertry ha ) 0 -
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Watchfinder (no guide on price really) have listed a 5711 for 100k yesterday.
RRP is 26k.
For a 3 hander steel watch. I blame the consumer at this point for being willing to pay that.
At RRP are they good quality for the price? Who ****ing cares it’s a Patek Philippe. Value for money or quality for money is irrelevant almost! (And no steel PP are not good value even at RRP IMO but lovely none the less).
There was a Roman Scharf vid today about this very thing. He said most of the sales are dealer to dealer, very few end customers are paying 100k for a 5711. The 5711 has priced itself out of the market and patek is happy about that, they have no interest in selling stainless watches. If you willing to drop 100k one Patek would rather you bought it from them in platinum for that money.
I am glad to see this new air of honesty on the forum and open discussion. And while you appreciate I play the Archie character it does flush out the honesty and eliminate the bull****. When you call a spade a spade, that when meaningful discussion happens. Wibbs I appreciate people collect for a variety of reasons, you have hit on a few of mine, but missed a lot too., its easy pigeon hole me as the "throw money at it" hype watch collector, but it's a lot more considered than that.
Why do people wear expensive watches that the bought for themselves? Simple....achievement awards. The achievement is that you can, and had the good taste to do so. Its a personal thing, and a lot of the reason I cannot understand people burdening themselves with low quality rubbish. If it truly is quality you value in a watch only you will notice wearing it, its not about other people. They are fooled by your Pagani, Alpha or replica.
My kids think I am obsessed with watches and I am, and the thought of them getting my watches and bringing them to be appraised when I am gone, and told their Daddies watches were actually worthless garbage would make me sad. I want to feel that all this effort I put into the hobby is towards something, is a progression and not just an accumulation.So I think if I were to get something from one of those brands - I'd want to go beyond the "bread and butter" line and get something with complications.
I agree, and I will post how strongly I agree soon enough
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This is how I look at my watch collecting.
Watches to me are tools with some aesthetic qualities. Can I tell the time/date with them easily, is my first question. Do they look good is the second and will they last my diminishing lifetime without needing to be serviced is the third. What happens to them after I'm gone is of no interest to me whatsoever.
It's not quite the same with my other collecting passion 'cycling history ephemera' of which I have boxes of and a number of rarish books. That stuff I'd like to think will go via auction or whatever to someone who will appreciate it.
I've stopped buying what I would consider low to mid-tier watches and may buy one or two lower tier luxury watches over the coming year or two, but I may not.
For now I'm happy with the wide variety of possible watch wearing options available to me, some like the radio controlled ones with high accuracy others with nice dials like the Alpinist and some that are light and legible like a certain Casio that I won't be worried if I smash it.
In the coming months I will be searching Ebay not for watches but interesting printed material on early cycling. 0 -
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Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,111 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Join Date:Posts: 59040
Same thing is happening in the pricier end of the vintage world too. That and dealers moving stock between themselves looking for sale and auctions throwing up the same watches every year to be passed from one bank vault to another. For a time. Never a good sign in a collector market of any sort. The same sort of thing happened in the lead up to the various classic car value crashes of the past.There was a Roman Scharf vid today about this very thing. He said most of the sales are dealer to dealer, very few end customers are paying 100k for a 5711.
Again you seem completely resistant to the idea that other people have other reasons for being interested in watches. I never said you were a throw money at it collector and tbh big whoop if you were. It's just another reason for someone to be into something and fair play. What I did say is Your reasons appear to be far more about the transmitting status aspect, maybe with a side order of "investment" and that's 100% cool and the gang(minus the hint of sniffiness part, though that tends to be inherent in the status buyer mindset).I am glad to see this new air of honesty on the forum and open discussion. And while you appreciate I play the Archie character it does flush out the honesty and eliminate the bull****. When you call a spade a spade, that when meaningful discussion happens. Wibbs I appreciate people collect for a variety of reasons, you have hit on a few of mine, but missed a lot too., its easy pigeon hole me as the "throw money at it" hype watch collector, but it's a lot more considered than that.
Why do people wear expensive watches that the bought for themselves? Simple....achievement awards. The achievement is that you can, and had the good taste to do so. Its a personal thing, and a lot of the reason I cannot understand people burdening themselves with low quality rubbish. If it truly is quality you value in a watch only you will notice wearing it, its not about other people. They are fooled by your Pagani, Alpha or replica.
To be fair to you and mae culpa I wasn't clear enough about the status transmitting to whom part. I kinda take it as read that 90% of people won't have a clue nor an interest in mine or anybody's watch, unless I'm hanging around with expensive ladies of easy virtue for the right price or thieves, or hanging around golfists waving their two tone Del Boy specials out of their lexus windows.
To be perfectly honest I don't notice other people's watches myself, unless it's something that stands really out.
The reasons may be different but save for forums(or latterly those weirdos with shaved wrists on instagram) the transmission is almost entirely internal for all of us really. The achievement award is an internal status transmission and I completely get that, the reward to oneself and all that goes with and leads up to it. Hell, I'd reckon the majority of private non WIS purchases by civilians of a "good watch" is and was for a milestone or achievement, either as a present or to oneself. The number of dedications on the backs of watches down the decades a testament to that. Of my dad's watches the one he had his name engraved on the back is the one I miss the most keenly and it wasn't the most expensive or lauded, it was a simple 35mm 50's Longines in gold(Hodink would term it a calatrava ) "worth" maybe 1000 quid, on a good day with the wind behind it.
On quality; as I said and like you said too quality is no respecter of wallets. However at a given price point in this game, quality has little enough to do with it. A GS blows the doors off on a helluva lot of the quality points in Omega or Rolex and aren't too far off Patek(eg the fake GS snowflake dials can be spotted from orbit) on the quality side and at a lower price for the most part, but status buyers aren't particularly interested in them, many even disparage them and their fans for being anal about polishing. Glashutte are serious quality and the examples you can get for the grey market nuttiness on some Rolex and Patek and yet, they're not so sought after on the status front(though that is changing). It's a narrow enough focus and that's fine too. I know a guy on another forum with five issued Rolex subs. Mad bugger. Now that's focus. Or another guy I know with a rake of NOS for the most part collectable Swatch watches(worth over 20k apparently :eek:). That's fairly focussed. On the MWR forum there's a chap Hurley who has an un-bloody-real collection of military watches that would range from a few hundred quid to I wouldn't like to be his insurer and that's his thing(sound as a pound too and helps other guys with parts to complete projects they have). And all of them get the dopamine hit and the internal achievement thing, just via a different path. That's all.
It wasn't a judgement call on you, or guys who collect like you do. They seek out status in line with their personal tastes regarding achievement and value, with a sensible sideorder of future value and research and buy on that basis and 100% fair enough. The part about "sniffiness" is like I say inherent. We're all sniffy to some degree(but I'm tryin' real hard Ringo), but by the very nature of status type buyers they're more likely to be. If one sets an internal standard then others either fall below or above it and I've found them to be more likely to be vocal about that too. Though that's the more insecure ones tbh. Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.
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Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,111 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Join Date:Posts: 59040
The other day oddly enough I was looking through some ancient ZIP disks I have and they still worked. :eek: Well most. I have a ZIP drive that works too. Told ya. I's a weirdo. But I found this scan I took in 93 or 4 when a client got one of the new fangled things(you can tell how old and slow it was, look at the hands). The thread just reminded me. The one in the middle is my dad's I mentioned above. Though by then he'd given it to me for my 21st. With some reluctance
Pretty basic, though the case is a little unusual. The design was common enough, but it was a multi piece case, where others are cast in one piece. American made as that's where he bought it and back then that's how they avoided the big taxes on imported case.. In Tiffany no less. None of yer muck I'll have ye know(Far from Tiffany I was dragged up).
Now if it only had Tiffany on the dial.... The dial had seen better days. He told me it originally came on a gold bracelet. Filigree as he described it.
He used to send it to Longines in Switzerland for a service(same for his other Longines). Wrapped carefully in the post with a load of stamps. Like you do. Not. He would tell me "always send them back home. That company are lovely people". And sure enough weeks later they would return with Swiss stamps and a handwritten letter and sometimes a postcard, or catalogue. No chocolate though, the feckers. Sadly that stuff's long gone. 
I've no idea how he paid them, but clearly he did. They even rang the house phone a couple of times. When the interwebs came along and I emailed them for details on a serial number they replied with what they had in their records(and even today when the rest charge, they still will give the basic deets over email, only charging for a printout). And he'd say "I told you, lovely people". That and my dad's attachment to the brand is what always drew me to them.
I think that's the first pic of my 1916 one too. Note how it has no lume and I had to use glued on "ladies" straps. No artisans on the Bay making kitchener straps back then. And here it is now, 30 years on(well 105 years on to be fair). Still ticking. And now glowing like a Ready Brek Kid(triggering the 70's and 80's kidz). I bloody love that daft oul antique. Well both of them.
Zenith were good back in the day too. They gave me what details they had over email, but they were scant enough. Year of manufacture and agent in Berlin they sold it to. Their records aren't close to those of Omega, Longines and IWC, though waaaaay better than some like Heuer.Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.
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That's all down to personal taste.
Yep, but the sale figures would suggest generally people dont appreciate GS and choose it over its rivals. They are pretty niche. I agree Rolex have some misfires, but in general their designs have withstood the test of time. And dont get me wrong I have a love.hate relationship with Rolex and I am not slow to voice my disgust at their flaws.Archie, is that you?:pac:
You did say earlier you cannot understand people burdening themselves with low quality rubbish, but above is different.
Yes, not everything is top quality. People know they're not high end, they're not looking for people to tell them they're quality. But anyone who visits a watch forum and takes the time to take a photo, upload it and make a comment obviously just enjoy their watch. A duro or vostok can make someone happy, partly because they got a decent watch that'll last years for under €100
I can comprehend why people have cheap watches if they need/want a watch. I can not understand why you would have 20 or 30 of them.
I am all for encouraging people getting into the hobby, but at some point we have to intervene when there is a failure to launch. Hell I remember looking at my Hodinkee and TGV fueled 20 space watchbox of orients, seikos and homage watches and think....what are you doing here man, are you a watch collector or a shopaholic. ?
Often, when people take the time to post a pic of an actual quality watch on this forum it gets relatively little attention or discussion, and I am not talking about myself here, there are more comments on relative quality of a 200 euro Rolex homage than the actual watch its aping. and I get that its easier play nice be positive but If you dont like Rolex then say it, say why and start a discussion, invite people to change your mind. If you dont like a comment, say I dont agree with your comment and here is why. This "its just opinion man, or it all a matter of taste" gets us nowhere. Have strong opinions, realise there is good taste and bad taste. If not we end up slapping participation stickers on everyone like a SNA on sports days.
Sure a casio Duro is a good watch for the person not into watches, but nobody is going to dig it up in 200 years and wear it round their necks like Wibbs and his medieval medallions (did you think you could slip that in Mr Wibbs and it would go unnoticed, not on my watch)
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Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,111 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Join Date:Posts: 59040
Actually I'd largely agree with you on the design aspect of GS. They tend to be either too conservative, or too "Japanese", or both and not in a good way. They remind me of Lexus. By most metrics far better cars than a Mercedes, but lacking something that Mercedes has. Seiko should bite the bullet and go full Lexus LFA.The grand seiko thing is one I have issue with, and I know there are people that agree with me. Is grand seiko a rubbish brand....absolutely not. They make good watches. But they have a major quality issue that is totally overlooked. The dial is like the water pool that narcissus drowned in, its gets all the attention, followed by the answer looking for a problem that is springdrive (not sneaky quartz that ridiculous).. And the macro detail is very good, and springdrive works well if your into that (just dont think you are ever getting a aftermarket service). But quality is not just about macro detail. There is quality of design and quality of function.
GS watches are not good looking watches. They are too thick, the cases are old fashioned, too highly polished and have no detail or subtlety.
Well, pretty much none of that is true, except in Swiss marketing meetings(which clearly worked). There wasn't a "quartz crisis", there was a "digitals crisis". The Swiss were heavily involved and invested in quartz technology, but not in the emerging digital watch market and they missed the boat there. Some tried to keep up; Heuer, Longines, Omega all produced digitals. Rolex prototyped one, but it was too late, though they did get their Oysterquartz off the ground. Then their watches got more expensive because of a rapid rise in the Swiss Franc against other currencies. The very high end Swiss stuff wasn't nearly as affected by the new tech as their mid tier and cheap brands(and not just in Switzerland). Why would anyone pay 100 quid for a ticking anachronism which would be about as accurate as an egg timer, more delicate and requiring of maintenance, when you could by a accurate, robust and trouble free and just as well made Seiko for the same money type of thing. Royal Oak and Nautilus customers had zero impact on saving the Swiss watch industry.Remember Wibbs hype buyers saved the swiss watch industry from the quartz crysis, the royal oak buyers and the Nautilus buyers, It was the industry that decided that a watch was more than its part and function, it was a luxury item bought for more than function.
What saved them was people like Biver picking up dead brands for buttons in the early 80's and running the mechanical is authentic and luxury marketing. Though it took a long time for it to catch on and it only caught on with a small percentage of male customers. Others were saved by the massive war chest of money made by coming up with and selling mass market cheap disposable quartz fashion watches. :eek: And a conglomerate was born...
"Shítters" not Pateks saved the Swiss watch industry.
The bit I don't get is someone who doesn't like Rolex wearing a copy of one. I never found them appealing as a brand myself. With a few exceptions, all of them made before 1980, their designs are dull and repetitive and their movements were decidedly underwhelming, even cheap and nasty, though rugged. Have a read of this watchmaker's take from 2002. Not so long ago.Often, when people take the time to post a pic of an actual quality watch on this forum it gets relatively little attention or discussion, and I am not talking about myself here, there are more comments on relative quality of a 200 euro Rolex homage than the actual watch its aping. and I get that its easier play nice be positive but If you dont like Rolex then say it, say why and start a discussion, invite people to change your mind.
There are also many watches at a quarter or less of the price of the Rolex that exhibit comparable or better workmanship and quality. In fact, I think it would be difficult to find another current production watch, at any price over a few hundred dollars, as deficient in basic workmanship of the mechanicals as the Explorer.
They've most certainly improved in the interim. Their bracelets which were once well known junkers have come on in leaps and bounds. Movement finishing has also improved. The tech that allows for a few blokes in an office in China rattle off fakes far better than the 2002 example above has also meant major improvements in the real thing. However for me anyway, they will remain a 3,000 quid watch with an extra 10,000 for the name on the dial.
It's also hard to name another Swiss brand that were less innovative, though their die hard fans believe otherwise. They are safe though. They require little imagination from much of their customer base. Going back to the car analogy, they remind me of Porsche. Dependable and traditional and a safe suburban "tasteful" purchase. The "expensive car" you buy where imagination isn't required.
Realise too that taste varies radically over time and culture. It's not so long ago the aforementioned Rolex was also a byword for wideboys, dreadful oiks, golfists and third world potentates a generation away from a tent or mud hut and a coup away from going back to one. Two tone or presidential bracelet for the win. Rolex themselves realised this and pushed the steel models to distance the brand from that. They do have the most incredible marketing minds though and have from the very start. That's no mean achievement either. When in the James Bond flic the love interest goes "Rolex?" and himself goes "No, Omega", I'd bet the boyos in Rolex fell about the floor laughing their arse off at both the cringe and the free and positive advertising, for them.Have strong opinions, realise there is good taste and bad taste. Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=faTFFSsOJ7o
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